The Ultimate Life Form ~ Shadow the Hedgehog for Smash Ultimate! (Maria...)

7NATOR

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Okay guys, So unlike most people in Smash Speculation, and i bet even most of the Shadow Supporters here, I do think Shadow has somewhat of a shot to get in as DLC. I won't say it wouldn't be an uphill battle, there are alot of candidates to fill in the 5 slots in the Fighter Pass, however I do think Shadow has merit to be one of the DLC Characters, so here it is.

So Going into FP2, I do think Shadow got more merit as a character then he did going into the base roster of Smash Ultimate, and FP1. FP1 was probably being decided sometime around 2017- 2018. I think when considering Shadow, who's an Assist Trophy character, We should also consider some advantages he got since becoming an Assist for the 3rd time. so let's take a look

-Sonic Forces and Team Sonic Racing are games that have Shadow featured prominently, especially Forces that had (Free) Shadow DLC. this is the first Time Shadow's been playable in a decade in Mainline Sonic game. While I will say Forces did not go as good as Mania (which is the best selling Sonic game in 25 Years) both Critically and Reception wise, It still did do good in Sales as Sega have said. I believe the same goes for Team Sonic Racing, especially in Europe. Plus even then, Shadow being playable in Forces was one of the things that people Really liked or found cool about the game, along with the Character creator and the music and such.

-He's still featured prominently in Sonic Media, like the Twitter stuff and such. Mobile Games, which are very popular. Sonic Boom the Cartoon was popular (even despite getting a bad timeslot for Season 2) and Shadow was a main focal point of Both Season finales.

-In terms of Smash, Probably the biggest Merit for Shadow is that his Popularity for Smash Exploded during the base game speculation. He's always had a notable Fanbase, but like with Skull Kid, Isaac, and Waluigi, the Fan demand came to the highest it's ever been. While Waluigi's Backlash might have been the biggest, Isaac, Shadow, and Skull Kid all got Backlash for their Assists Returning (Especially since Skull Kid wasn't even revealed in the direct, they did him dirty).

Now that that's established, here's some other stuff

-The Sonic Movie was Looking to come out soonish when FP2 was being decided. Both the First Intial Trailer came out. We know that the Trailer got Very Popular for the wrong reasons, however it was also stated the Design would be fixed. this all happened when the Fighter Pass was beind decided. Unforantly we can't use the Amazing performance of the Actual movie to it's credit, since the movie came out in February and the Fighter Pass was being decided then. I think the thing with this is that the fact Sonic was getting a movie in the first place shows that Sonic is looking to be more relevant than he was at the time of Base roster Selection

-Even without the movie, Sonic Mania, The Sonic Boom Cartoon, Sonic Forces (to an extent), The Comics, Mobile games, Animations, were in help of Making Sonic Relevant.

-The Sonic 30th Anniversary is Next year, so we should see a New Sonic game

I'm mentioning this because I will just say that Sonic was in a Much Better Position around this time than before Ultimate Base roster was being selected. The latest games for Sonic around this time were Sonic Boom. Say what you will about Forces, But Forces has much more merit to it than Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric, and Forces also has Mania too.

The TL:DR is that Sonic as a Franchise has more merit of getting another character going into FP2 than it did for Base roster. that's pretty much the gist

So with that being said, the question we need to ask is if Nintendo/Sakurai is willing to Pick Sonic. Well we need to look at the Advantages and Disadvantages of Another Sonic Character in Smash

Pros
-Sonic is a Relevant, Iconic franchise that Nintendo Fans are VERY Familiar with.
-Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman are Iconic characters that Casuals know, while also being characters that have seen lots of requests for in Smash.
-Sega Still has probably the best relations with Nintendo of any 3rd Party
-The Licensing costs for another Sonic character might be in it's favor. Just recent Ninjala was able to attain a Sonic Event. I imagine Licensing another Sonic character will cost money, however I don't expect it to be something outrageous. Plus there is the fact that Other Sonic characters are already in Smash in some form. While the Licensing for stuff like Assists, Mii Costumes, and Spirits are different from a Full fighter, I think the Transisiton from those might be much easier from a Licensing standpoint than Working with Completely new company

The Licensing point is important to note because there's a likely chance that FP2 might not have as much High Priced characters as FP1, or maybe just around the same amount. Diminishing returns are a big factor into this, as typically Later Season passes do not do as good as beginning Season passes since less people are probably playing the game as it goes on longer. There's also the fact that this type of Extra DLC (that hadn't seemed to have been Planned) is not typical of Nintendo.

The Biggest characters of FP1 I would expect from a Licensing Standpoint is Hero and Banjo (Hero the more expenive one of the two, due to the music Rights especially and having to work with 3 Companies). I do think this should be considered when talking about Characters like Crash, Master Chief, and Sora. this is not to say they are impossible, Far from it. However I do think this Licensing thing must be something taken into consideration, as I expect characters like Sora, Chief, and Crash to be very expensive. There's also nothing saying they couldn't make an exception for Smash, but it is something to consider

Cons

-Another Sonic character really wouldn't bring in a New Audience to Smash, Since Sonic himself is already in.
-Sega technically already got in a new character, with Joker, even though that's more Atlus's Character, but Sega owns Atlus.
-There's other Prominent Sega Characters, With Arle being the most prominent, as she's been very requested in Japan for awhile now and is sometimes considered "The Japanese Sega Mascot"


Those are just some of the Pros and Cons, there's probably more under the surface. In the case of Shadow Himself getting in, here are the Pros and Cons

Pros
-Very Popular Iconic character, that's been very requested for Smash
-From a Development Standpoint, would be easier to create since he Could use Sonic as a base, while still having really unique moves
-Despite Looking like Sonic, Shadow has potential from Moveset that not only separates him from Sonic, but from the rest of the cast. Space Time Manipulation is an interesting concept that could be done, With his Chaos powers. there's also other Sonic related abilities like the Boost, Light Speed dash, and Black Tornado, His Skate Shoes, and also Guns
-The Head of Sonic Team, Takashi Lizuka's favorite character is Shadow the Hedgehog
-Sakurai might also have a thing for Edgy Characters. Look at Meta Knight, Dark Pit, and also his comments on Iori. there's more to this i believe as well


Cons
-The Similarities to Sonic however can't be ignored, and could be Detrimental to the possibility of Shadow being in FP2
-Of the 4 Main Possibilities of a 2nd Sonic character, Shadow is probably the most divisive one.
-In terms of Assist characters, Isaac and Waluigi are characters that pose massive competition. there's also Skull Kid, Bomberman, and Shovel Knight
-Perhaps might be hard to balance, with the Time Manipulation, combined with Shadow's other abilities, being a hard mix to balance with such a Fast character like Shadow

There's probably more in each category. I just wanted to go on ahead and state this. yes
 

Janx_uwu

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Yeah, agreed. Shadow is probably the least likely of Sonic newcomers, but I don't doubt we'll get one in FP2. And if not Shadow, he would make sense as an addition to Smash 6-then people wouldn't feel like they'd been ripped off for getting a character similar to Sonic (who, might I add, is a pretty hated character). Echo DLC could be another option, sure. But seeing as we have zero evidence of this happening, I'll doubt it.
If Nintendo wanted a sidekick from the series, they'd put in Tails. If they wanted an antagonist, they'd do Eggman. And if they wanted a rival...let's be honest, they'd choose Knuckles. Shadow, I think, they would choose if they're going solely off of fan demand (which was, might I point out, the case for K. Rool).
TL;DR Shadow seems unlikely for this game, but let's not count him out just yet.
By the way, I'd like to be put down as a supporter for Shadow, don't think I made that clear enough the first time I posted here.
 

Janx_uwu

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On the subject of 2nd Sonic character speculation in Ultimate, here are my thoughts:
My opinions on Shadow have altered since my previous posting here. Shadow is my most wanted, and his odds certainly aren't bad. He's the second most popular character in the franchise and, at least from what I've seen, the most highly requested Sonic character. He's also Takashi Iizuka's (head of Sonic Team) favorite character, so if Sakurai was just going to include Iizuka's favorite character, it would be Shadow. Shadow is pretty similar to Sonic (so he'd be easier to develop than a newer character) while also having more than enough differences from Sonic for a moveset of his own (so fewer people get upset over buying an echo or semi-echo, which Shadow wouldn't be if he were in fp2 as a CP). Alternatively, they can make him a non-challenger pack character but he would be an echo without a stage or music-though I'd at least like to see Throw It All Away make an appearance. The biggest thing holding Shadow back are being an Assist Trophy, but since Min Min broke that spirit rule mere months ago, I think Shadow could do the same. Another thing is that if he was to be an echo, Metal Sonic would be the much more obvious choice.
Dr. Eggman, however, has just as much of a chance as Shadow, if not more. He's one of the few characters that returns for every installment, even when the series tries to completely reboot or reinvent itself. He was the very second Sonic character and arguably the first if you count his developing stages, where he was originally pitched as Sega's new mascot before Sonic was a thing. He's more important to the series than any of the other characters I mention here and has more moveset potential as well (imo). He's an extremely expressive character which would make his taunts and animations an absolute delight, and his many appearances throughout the franchise mean he won't really upset many Sonic fans with his inclusion alone. The biggest thing holding him back-well, if I'm being honest, Shadow and Bowser Jr. Shadow is the more heavily requested character from what I've seen, but that's not a huge deal, Sakurai won't choose a character on want alone (correct me if I'm wrong). Bowser Jr, is a weird case, because he also possesses a flying fortress (no pun intended) that has various tools coming out of it to attack his opponent-which is more or less how I'd imagine Eggman. They have more than enough material to make him different, but the fact that BJ already has a flying automobile of his own might ward Sakurai off of making a moveset for Eggman, fearing they would be too similar. Still, my bet's on Eggman.
Knuckles is like Shadow, where both are assist trophies that share traits with Sonic in thier games. Knuckles has lots of potential for a moveset, where he'd be a kind of glass canon that deals lots of damage but dies just as early as Sonic. He has things like the glide, melee attacks, and climb to differentiate himself from Sonic. I don't possess strong feelings for Knux as a fighter one way or another, but he would be a logical choice to please the majority of the fanbase Knuckles is a wise choice, but I think he has the least chance of these four characters.
Tails is the strangest case. He's similar to Sonic, but more so is Shadow. He's a very early character in the series, but Eggman is earlier. He's a friend of Sonic's, but so is Knuckles and Shadow. He has lots of moveset potential, but so do Shadow and Eggman. I can totally see Sakurai going for Tails if he's aiming for protagonists only, because while Shadow and Knuckles are also protagonists they are also Sonic's rivals, plus Tails is Sonic's best friend. As it stands I also don't have strong feelings for Tails but would love it if he got in, as I would with any other Sonic character. He doesn't have much holding him back, apart from the "Sega has three reps" argument, which also applies to everyone else here.
I still think that there should be a second Sonic rep-I know Sega has three reps, but Sonic is one of the most influential icons of the 90's and has one of the strongest followings as well as one of the biggest hate trains of gaming. Not to mention his 30th anniversary is next year, which would be the perfect time to announce one of these characters for a Challenger Pack. If we get none of these in Ultimate DLC, I think it's a lock for Smash 6 for the popularity and influence of the series alone.
TL;DR Bet's on Eggman, heart's on Shadow. Tails and Knuckles are also very possible.
 

7NATOR

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The Post Above is really good. Love the thoughts into it

In any case, Reveal is coming in just a few hours. I don't think Shadow would be revealed this early if he was in the pass, but just in case he does, We're gonna party if he gets in, and be hyped and stuff. yes
 

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Don't get me wrong; I still wanna see edgy the hedgey in Smash, but if he does get in, I hope he's the last fighter of the entire game (unless a different AT gets promoted first) because I don't want people screaming OOOOO ASSIST TROPHY GOT PROMOTED THAT MEANS (insert character here) IS ALSO IN.
 
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7NATOR

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I won't be able to watch it for another two hours as I'll be in classes, so see you guys at 12 or 11:30 I guess.
Alrighty, Good luck in not getting Spoiled beforehand

Don't get me wrong; I still wanna see edgy the hedgey in Smash, but if he does get in, I hope he's the last fighter of the entire game (unless a different AT gets promoted first) because I don't want people screaming OOOOO ASSIST TROPHY GOT PROMOTED THAT MEANS (insert character here) IS ALSO IN.

While I want to play as Shadow as soon as possible, I honestly do think he would fit being the last character of the game. Especially if he happened to be the only Assist Promotion

Plus I would think they want to get out all the unique Franchises out first, before going into the represented Franchises. Yes
 

7NATOR

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Okay, What's up Shadow Bros

this week has been interesting, And i need to get my thoughts on how everything affects Shadow. I post here first since this is a Shadow Thread, and everywhere else I'd be seen as conspiracy nut, so here's my thoughts


Bomberman Mii Costume, and the Situation surrounding Steve give me more Confidence in Shadow being a Playable Character. I'll go into the facts first then give my Conspiracy theory


1. With the Bomberman Mii Costume, Sakurai still did not Deconfirm Assist Trophies. Also considering how good the costume looks, I think the argument could be killed that Assist fighter and Playabale Assist would be confusing. I know Squid Sisters were first to this regard in terms of New AT costumes, but Bomberman looks so good that it reinforces this point. also he's a New 3rd party Promoted AT Mii costume

2. Along with that, Bomberman also is allowed Alt Colors, They were really trying to get it close to making it seem Bomberman is actually Playable. It's unfortunate Mii brawler doesn't have any moves that allows you to Plant Bombs

3. Regarding Steve, He was in discussion since 5 Years ago. Of course He wasn't in Development for 5 years, and perhaps negotations weren't finished because Implementing Steve back then was probably too much. Now though, with FP2, Sakurai was finally committed to get Steve working. Negotiations finalized somewhere in 2019 and now we have Steve

Okay so now for my Conspiracy Theory

I think Shadow might have been considered, however I think he was beat out. I stand by the fact that if He really would have been an echo, he'd be added in, but I don't think Shadow's Fate (if Playable) was meant to be an echo, but his own character. That's why he's still Assist. That's could also be why assist Function was upgraded, along with the animations and such.

What I think this might mean for FP2 is that I think since this is "Extra Characters" that I think Shadow has a good shot. Shadow is unique in that he could re-use Sonic's Assets (or AT Assets), while still having some unique gameplay elements. Doing stuff with Chaos Control, Using Sonic related skills that Sonic doesn't use like Boost, Black Tornado, and Light Speed Dash, Rocket Skates, Guns (Maybe summon them as Taunt), and his other Canon moves can really make him standout.

I guess it really does depend on Nintendo choosing to work with Sega again, and/or Choosing another Sonic character. Sonic is doing good though, so who knows.
 

7NATOR

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So I'm kinda getting Confident in Shadow

at the same time though, I'm also kind of worried. There are alot of characters, and alot of new companies left unanswered. We got Ryu, Arle, Crash, Any Level-5 Character, Euden, Waluigi, Geno, Monster Hunter, Dante, Reimu, and more to contend with

You guys think Shadow can actually pull through. You guys think that Shadow can get Chosen by Nintendo?
 

Janx_uwu

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So I'm kinda getting Confident in Shadow

at the same time though, I'm also kind of worried. There are alot of characters, and alot of new companies left unanswered. We got Ryu, Arle, Crash, Any Level-5 Character, Euden, Waluigi, Geno, Monster Hunter, Dante, Reimu, and more to contend with

You guys think Shadow can actually pull through. You guys think that Shadow can get Chosen by Nintendo?
Not in Fighter’s Pass 2. In an echo DLC? Yes. In Smash 6? Yes. But if they’re adding a Sonic character in FP2, I think it’s gonna be Eggman.
 

millsfan

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I’d be 100% more confident if a third dlc pack is released that is upgrading assist characters. Wish they’d upgrade these characters. We’ve waited since brawl for shadow. It sucks
 
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Janx_uwu

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I'm going to be honest, I think Eggman's chances are much better for Shadow's in this Fighter's Pass (who I also really want, he just comes in a close second to Shadow). Even if Sakurai knows he can make an extremely unique moveset for Shadow, he also knows people will be upset if Shadow is announced and think they are getting ripped off. But for Smash 6 I think his chances are much much higher. It would be weird to go 4 games with only one Sonic character considering the scope and popularity of the franchise, and plus we got Ken as a third-party echo for Ultimate's base roster, so Shadow could essentially be a similar deal. Plus if Shadow was an echo, I'd perfer him to be less like Daisy and more like Ken, you know what I mean?
 

7NATOR

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I did think about People thinking Shadow would be a Rip-Off, considering how Close his Body type is to Sonic. Even if he has the most unique Moveset, I could see Complaints

With that being said, I don't think it would be as bad though. Shadow is a Known character anyway So I think alot of people would be Surprised he wasn't an Echo (and just surprised at his Inclusion since he's an AT not named Waluigi), but they wouldn't hate on the fact. Plus I think that's the important part of the showcases anyway, to show what moves the Next DLC Character would have.

Now as for Eggman, if you want to get technical he honestly does have more merit. He pretty much Shows up in every form of Sonic Media (Except for I think one game, and probably other Appearances), and usually has an Important part in it. He's the Most Important character in the Sonic Franchise besides Sonic himself. He has a Whole lot of Expressive Personality, has alot of Material, Is probably the most Iconic Villain not named Bowser in Gaming, and all that jazz. He also wouldn't be Compared to Sonic at all, and We don't have a Evil Scientist on the Roster. He also doesn't have Assist trophy Going against him, and he's been growing in Requests in Smash fanbase for DLC Pick.

With that being said, I still think Shadow will get in instead, and I don't know if it's just my Delusions or something, but There are Things Shadow also Has

-2nd Most Popular Character in the Fandom
-His Closeness to Sonic's Body Type allows for Easier Development, while you could still give him very unique Moveset.
-Also the Fact that he has an AT Model could be seen as a Plus. As we see with Bomberman they can Port the Assist Trophy to a Mii Costume (they do have to clean up the model and stuff, but Much Easier than making a Whole new Model). They should be able to do the same with a Full Playable character
-He's Takashi Lizuika's, Head of Sonic Team, Favorite Character
-More Concrete Moveset pool, and More of a Direction to Go in.

Eggman does have more material, but the Problem is It's hard to come up with a Full Direction for how to make his Movesets, because he's been in So Many mechs and such. You could just go with the Egg Mobile, but that has the Problem of being Very Similar to Bowser Jr. (which people who do predict Eggman even Acknowledge). You could go with some big Mech like the Death Egg, but then it wouldn't be Big Anymore and such like that since you'd have to shrink. The SA2 Mech could be used, but it's it's just alot of questions around how to Implement him.

They did manage to get Steve to work though, so Maybe yes
 
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Janx_uwu

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If Eggman was in Smash, the only way you could please the entirety of the fanbase would be a down b mech switch-Eggmobile, Egg Walker, Egg Dragoon. And that would be really tough to develop. I do think Shadow has a slight edge over Eggman, and here's my reasoning:
So there are four main characters from Sonic that have the best chance in Smash for a first character-Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman-five if you count Metal Sonic. Then we have characters that are much more likely for a third Sonic character, like Blaze, Silver, Amy, and Classic Sonic. So Sakurai might be confused on who to put in because there are five possible candidates. So he goes to Sonic Team for help, asks Iizuka who he should add, and bingo, we have our edgy boy coming home.
Since Sak has already stated no echos will be in the Fighters Pass, and Shadow is pretty much a canonical echo fighter with a bit of Chaos spice, I don't see him happening this pass. Eggman, even from a glance, has so much more to work with to make him way more unique. If they focus directly on the classic games while giving nods to Adventure and Boost games, they could have a clear path of what to work with. It's impossible to tell which of the four or five characters will get in though-they could go in any direction.
 

7NATOR

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If Eggman was in Smash, the only way you could please the entirety of the fanbase would be a down b mech switch-Eggmobile, Egg Walker, Egg Dragoon. And that would be really tough to develop. I do think Shadow has a slight edge over Eggman, and here's my reasoning:
So there are four main characters from Sonic that have the best chance in Smash for a first character-Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman-five if you count Metal Sonic. Then we have characters that are much more likely for a third Sonic character, like Blaze, Silver, Amy, and Classic Sonic. So Sakurai might be confused on who to put in because there are five possible candidates. So he goes to Sonic Team for help, asks Iizuka who he should add, and bingo, we have our edgy boy coming home.
Since Sak has already stated no echos will be in the Fighters Pass, and Shadow is pretty much a canonical echo fighter with a bit of Chaos spice, I don't see him happening this pass. Eggman, even from a glance, has so much more to work with to make him way more unique. If they focus directly on the classic games while giving nods to Adventure and Boost games, they could have a clear path of what to work with. It's impossible to tell which of the four or five characters will get in though-they could go in any direction.
"Canonical Echo Fighter with a bit of Chaos spice"

Yes there are games where Shadow is functionally Similar to Sonic, however the thing to keep in mind is that The Implementation in a Game like Sonic differs from how it Works in Smash

That's actually something I Noticed. People think Shadow would be so close to Sonic, and that characters like Knuckles and Tails would be Radically different in the same sentence due to how the Games worked (Nevermind that Tails and Knuckles, disregarding Flying and Gliding have been very Similar to Control to Sonic in certain games, Tails Especially). Tails and Knuckles would be radically different if you were to Implement them in Smash, but so would Shadow

The Moves Shadow has Shared with Sonic in the games has been Homing Attack, Spindash, Light Speed Dash, Black Tornado (to Blue Tornado), Stomp, Slide Kick, Boost Attack

Only 2 of these Moves Sonic uses in Smash. Sonic is also heavily based of the First Fighting game he was in (Sonic the Fighters) for material for his Moveset. It stands to reason that Shadow would have Material from Sonic battle in his Moveset, which is radically different from Sonic, and honestly other characters in Smash already. From then on Material from Cutscenes, Games that do make use of Chaos abilities in gameplay (Shadow the Hedgehog, 06, Black Knight), His Boss Fights, or any other Form of Sonic Media. There's also conceptually the stuff you could do with Chaos Control anyway, as well as the Personality differences between Sonic and Shadow that would affect how they actually fight in Smash

I think if Shadow were to be Implemented as a Canonical Echo with Chaos Spice, he'd be in the game already. I think the fact that he wasn't probably means that despite the Similiarites between Sonic and Shadow, They couldn't justfiy Shadow being a Straight up echo of Sonic.
 

Janx_uwu

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"Canonical Echo Fighter with a bit of Chaos spice"
Of course I don't actually think that about Shadow-in fact I'm actually working on a fan moveset for him that's completely unique. But Shadow is, canonically, Sonic's echo, like Luigi and Ken. In the very first game they appeared in, Shadow was the exact same as Sonic in his moveset. Same for his most recent playable appearance, Sonic Forces. They also share very similar movesets in Heroes. They have a lot to work with for Shadow, but as it stands he is conceptually to similar to Sonic to be considered in a non-echo Pass. If Ken was in Fighter's Pass 2 instead of the base game I sure wouldn't be too thrilled with how similar he is to Ryu, even if his moveset was more unique than it is now. Same case for Ms. Pac-Man, Proto Man, etc. Believe me I really want to play as Shadow in Smash, but I think we'll have to wait for the next game. This isn't even considering the fact that he's an AT, and while I don't think they deconfirm, it certainly doesn't help his chances for this game. If he's put in this Pass the outcry would be huge, probably even more so than Byleth, because at a surface level and from an outsider's point of view, Shadow and Sonic are nearly identical in terms of abilities. People don't want to feel ripped off, I mean look at Byleth. Many people got the Fighter's Pass because Joker, a recent, unique, third party character was announced as the first DLC fighter. They felt ripped off when an eighth character from a series with not nearly as large of a fanbase as Smash got in. Never mind the fact that their moveset is unique, people still feel sour about Byleth. When you couple that with the fact that there are two Sonic candidates who have a ton of unique moveset potential and aren't Assist Trophies, and have more importance to the series, and have more differences to Sonic than Shadow does, then he's got quite a bit of competition.
I'm not trying to say Shadow is impossible for this Pass, and I definitely don't think he has zero moveset potential-quite the opposite actually. I just think the other three Sonic candidates have much more of a chance for this Pass.
 

7NATOR

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Of course I don't actually think that about Shadow-in fact I'm actually working on a fan moveset for him that's completely unique. But Shadow is, canonically, Sonic's echo, like Luigi and Ken. In the very first game they appeared in, Shadow was the exact same as Sonic in his moveset. Same for his most recent playable appearance, Sonic Forces. They also share very similar movesets in Heroes. They have a lot to work with for Shadow, but as it stands he is conceptually to similar to Sonic to be considered in a non-echo Pass. If Ken was in Fighter's Pass 2 instead of the base game I sure wouldn't be too thrilled with how similar he is to Ryu, even if his moveset was more unique than it is now. Same case for Ms. Pac-Man, Proto Man, etc. Believe me I really want to play as Shadow in Smash, but I think we'll have to wait for the next game. This isn't even considering the fact that he's an AT, and while I don't think they deconfirm, it certainly doesn't help his chances for this game. If he's put in this Pass the outcry would be huge, probably even more so than Byleth, because at a surface level and from an outsider's point of view, Shadow and Sonic are nearly identical in terms of abilities. People don't want to feel ripped off, I mean look at Byleth. Many people got the Fighter's Pass because Joker, a recent, unique, third party character was announced as the first DLC fighter. They felt ripped off when an eighth character from a series with not nearly as large of a fanbase as Smash got in. Never mind the fact that their moveset is unique, people still feel sour about Byleth. When you couple that with the fact that there are two Sonic candidates who have a ton of unique moveset potential and aren't Assist Trophies, and have more importance to the series, and have more differences to Sonic than Shadow does, then he's got quite a bit of competition.
I'm not trying to say Shadow is impossible for this Pass, and I definitely don't think he has zero moveset potential-quite the opposite actually. I just think the other three Sonic candidates have much more of a chance for this Pass.
I do think Shadow would Be Controversial if he Got in, But I heavily doubt he'd be as Controversial as Byleth

-People actually Want a 2nd Sonic character in this game. No where as Many wanted a 8th Fire Emblem Character (even people that wanted Byleth were kinda understanding of that Idea)

-Shadow has been wanted for Long time now

-He would break the Assist Rule, and even if he was the only one, going forward in the Series that can't be used as an Argument anymore

People would be much more willing to give Shadow a Chance because of that. Even if Byleth's Moveset was unique, people absolutely did not want Another Fire Emblem character at all. On a Character and Series level, Byleth was Disadvantaged. People want Shadow and People want another Sonic character so Despite how Similar in Appearance Shadow is and perhaps some of the Attributes He would share with Sonic, They would give him a Chance.

Even Now when Shadow is an Assist, and Also still seen as an Echo Material, and that there are other Sonic Characters Perceived to be more unique, You still see Shadow do Good on DLC Polls

Now as for him being Too Conceptually to Sonic to be Considered, That is something to Consider, but Shadow does have more Wildly different abilities from Sonic, like Say Ken compared to Ryu, that I could see him being considered. I mean Tails and Knuckles also share Concepts with Sonic as well, like Going Fast and Spindashing and Homing Attacking (in Knuckles case anyway). Ken, as Different as he has gotten, Always uses the Same Techniques that Ryu uses, but in Different Ways, and his unique techniques aren't changing the game that much. Shadow has His Chaos Powers which is Drastically different from what Sonic does, so yes

With that Said, Like i said Shadow would be Controversial if he got in

-From an Already Represented Franchise (for those that just want New Franchises in DLC)

-Some People still might see him as Black Sonic

-As Popular as he is, even in the Sonic fanbase he's much more Controversial than Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman

-He's an Assist, that's not Waluigi
 

Janx_uwu

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"If the world chooses to become my enemy...I will fight like I always have!"
View attachment 289069
Shadow The Hedgehog Moveset!

My first one BTW. Any and all feedback is appreciated!!
This is something I posted in the Make Your Moveset 23 contest. It's my first real, organized moveset I've ever made and would really appreciate it if you guys read through it and gave me some feedback over on the MYM 23 thread.
(click the pic to see the set)
EDIT: If the pic doesn't work, use this. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jdVt1uvorXYj2WHjzWFslhMt11i6ron0dtA2qD0uvss/edit
 
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Janx_uwu

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sorry, I had to copy the one that let you share files, not just the one at the top.
Here, now it should work.
 

7NATOR

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I forgot to comment about the Moveset

Overall I Think it is a Cool Moveset, I would have done some things Differeantly of course (I've also made a Shadow Moveset in the past). In any case here's some things I just want to Comment on

-Side Tilt bring back "You're Too Slow!" Would be Amazing, and having Shadow Say it could not only also be Meme Worthy, but also very Threatning as well

-Down Taunt I believe, I get the Reference, But to my Knowledge, I don't think Shadow actually said "You're Weak" to Infinite. That's just Infinite's Mind messing up from The PTSD of getting bodied. Shadow said he was "Worthless". Yes

-I Like Silver, But I don't think he Should be used as Shadow's Grab. If they did add that it would be Fanservice though

-I would do Up Special and Down Special differently. I would just make Up special being able to Teleport Multiple times, which could be used for Custom Combos, but the teleport themselves don't go Far. Perhaps it could be limited by Meter, or just by needing to Land on Groun

For Down Special, I wouldn't make that a Counter. I would make it more like a Move you could activate at any time, and Make it the Highest Risk/ Highest Reward Move in the game. You could Time Freeze, Time Flow, Or even Time Rewind if you want to add that. If it Misses or Blocked Shadow is in ALOT of Endlag for 7000 Years

-The Homing Attack as a Neutral Attack is Smart, And i Might add that to my Moveset. I'm Also glad that I wasn't the only one to add Spindash to a Tilt Attack
 

Janx_uwu

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I forgot to comment about the Moveset

Overall I Think it is a Cool Moveset, I would have done some things Differeantly of course (I've also made a Shadow Moveset in the past). In any case here's some things I just want to Comment on

-Side Tilt bring back "You're Too Slow!" Would be Amazing, and having Shadow Say it could not only also be Meme Worthy, but also very Threatning as well

-Down Taunt I believe, I get the Reference, But to my Knowledge, I don't think Shadow actually said "You're Weak" to Infinite. That's just Infinite's Mind messing up from The PTSD of getting bodied. Shadow said he was "Worthless". Yes

-I Like Silver, But I don't think he Should be used as Shadow's Grab. If they did add that it would be Fanservice though

-I would do Up Special and Down Special differently. I would just make Up special being able to Teleport Multiple times, which could be used for Custom Combos, but the teleport themselves don't go Far. Perhaps it could be limited by Meter, or just by needing to Land on Groun

For Down Special, I wouldn't make that a Counter. I would make it more like a Move you could activate at any time, and Make it the Highest Risk/ Highest Reward Move in the game. You could Time Freeze, Time Flow, Or even Time Rewind if you want to add that. If it Misses or Blocked Shadow is in ALOT of Endlag for 7000 Years

-The Homing Attack as a Neutral Attack is Smart, And i Might add that to my Moveset. I'm Also glad that I wasn't the only one to add Spindash to a Tilt Attack
Thanks a lot for the feedback! The up b does sound better than what I had planned, tbh. Mine could still work but I like yours a lot better.
I’ll keep Silver, I don’t think he will ever be a Smash fighter so this is my way to have him in spirit I guess.
Down special, man that would be super weird. I’ll also keep the counter because I can’t think of how else to make Chaos Control work without making him SSS tier.
But yeah, all in all I’ll consider your criticisms as well as others so maybe one day I can do a reworked version.
 

7NATOR

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So Shadow Bros. I've come to bring up certain Things today

1. Since Sega is starting to Tease on their Twitter Again, there's a Chance we might See New Sonic game soon, maybe at the Game Awards or something. Hopefully because I'm wondering if Sega can get their Mojo with 3D Sonic Again (I Hope So)

2. Steve is Pretty fun. More Simple in Practice than the showcase made him out to be

3. The Interesting thing is the Bomberman Mii Costume. Look at this


AAcYEnAABBII.jpg


Almost Identical. This hurts some of the Arguments Against Assist Trophies In My Opinion. This helps not only Shadow, but Also Waluigi, Isaac, Skull Kid, and Others

4. Geno being Playable could be a Good thing, and Bad thing

-The Bad thing is that there would only be 3 Slots (if let's say he was Next). Of course the FP2 is already decided, but that's just something to suggest

-The Good thing is that Geno is Pretty Much a Unique 3rd Party Rep (that's not the First Character). The weird thing is that His Franchise is 1st Party, since it's Mario, but because Geno Himself is a 3rd party, it kinda hurts the whole "No unique 3rd party 2nd Rep) thing.

-Another Good thing, it might make Waluigi less likely, if we were to only get 1 Assist Promotion, which means less Competition. of Course characters are chosen on their own merits, not just because they could break AT Rule, But is something I'll Mention

-There is also Legacy XP where Shadow was in the mod. I thought it mostly be for Geno, and honestly that still could be the case, and the reason I thought that is because there's an Ultimate Mod Video of Waluigi and Shadow, which wasn't taken down. Of course it might be because Legacy XP isn't just Character Skins lke Ultimate, or that Legacy XP was a Big mod. there's intricacies in this

5. I'm gonna try and make another Shadow moveset, See if I can make this one the best it could be

EDIT: https://www.sega60th.com/#weekly-bundle

So there's something happening on the 2ND relating to Sonic. Hope it's something Game related that's new and not just Merch
 
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Janx_uwu

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I’d be equally happy for Waluigi and Shadow. That being said you make a good point with Bomberman. Geno would probably not do much for Shadow outside of taking up another slot imo. We shouldn’t treat every DLC character that isn’t Shadow as a bad thing, really-that’s not a great mindset to have.
The way I see it it’s either Geno or Wah, and then that’s it for Mario series characters. I think they’re more likely to choose Waluigi because that’s simpler for them to work out and would make a lot more people happy. Then again there’s also the hefty evidence for Geno so it could go either way.
And happy to hear you’re working on a Shadow moveset, I’m excited to see it when it’s done!
Last thing I’ll say is that I think Shadow’s best chance is this-clearly Waluigi is not treated too fondly by Mr. Sakurai. Maybe he wants to open the doors for assist trophies, but doesn’t want to use Waluigi to do so. He used bomberman to test the waters, to see fans’ reaction to an assist trophy upgrade of some kind. Since Shadow The Hedgehog was one of the games Sak played before adding Sonic in Brawl, we have a decent chance there. There’s also issac we have to worry about (mainly because unlike Wah I don’t want him in) but the popularity difference between Sonic and Golden Sun is pretty large. And as Steve proved, popularity plays a big part in a character’s viability.
Without bias here’s my predictions:
Geno
Gen 8 Pokémon
Another Sega rep
Master Hand
Bonus: Waluigi
The last one is based mainly on the evidence in the Waluigi thread and some things that Fatmanoice hinted at in said thread. But I have hope for Shadow and I think he has good chances even if I don’t personally think it’ll be this Pass. An echo pack, though? If we got something like that I would feel much better about his chances, he’s like one of the most obvious echoes you could do even if he has more than enough potential to be his own character.
 

7NATOR

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I’d be equally happy for Waluigi and Shadow. That being said you make a good point with Bomberman. Geno would probably not do much for Shadow outside of taking up another slot imo. We shouldn’t treat every DLC character that isn’t Shadow as a bad thing, really-that’s not a great mindset to have.
The way I see it it’s either Geno or Wah, and then that’s it for Mario series characters. I think they’re more likely to choose Waluigi because that’s simpler for them to work out and would make a lot more people happy. Then again there’s also the hefty evidence for Geno so it could go either way.
And happy to hear you’re working on a Shadow moveset, I’m excited to see it when it’s done!
Last thing I’ll say is that I think Shadow’s best chance is this-clearly Waluigi is not treated too fondly by Mr. Sakurai. Maybe he wants to open the doors for assist trophies, but doesn’t want to use Waluigi to do so. He used bomberman to test the waters, to see fans’ reaction to an assist trophy upgrade of some kind. Since Shadow The Hedgehog was one of the games Sak played before adding Sonic in Brawl, we have a decent chance there. There’s also issac we have to worry about (mainly because unlike Wah I don’t want him in) but the popularity difference between Sonic and Golden Sun is pretty large. And as Steve proved, popularity plays a big part in a character’s viability.
Without bias here’s my predictions:
Geno
Gen 8 Pokémon
Another Sega rep
Master Hand
Bonus: Waluigi
The last one is based mainly on the evidence in the Waluigi thread and some things that Fatmanoice hinted at in said thread. But I have hope for Shadow and I think he has good chances even if I don’t personally think it’ll be this Pass. An echo pack, though? If we got something like that I would feel much better about his chances, he’s like one of the most obvious echoes you could do even if he has more than enough potential to be his own character.
Oh I didn't mean that any Character that's not Shadow is a Bad thing. I meant bad as in Shadow's Probability of being in the pass, but even if Shadow isn't in the Pass, the Pass would still be good. there's still cool Characters.

Waluigi vs Geno...In Terms of Popularity Waluigi should win. Waluigi is Popular both in and Outside the Hardcore Smash Community, which is a Problem Geno has since Outside the Hardcore Smash Community, Geno is not the most known character. Waluigi is also Relevant, and Waluigi already has a Full Model.

Of Course Geno could still get in, especially since he has Pre-Made Abilities that are Cool and Stuff. Waluigi does have Material, but the thing is that alot of it isn't Consitent (except for Air Swimming Honestly). You notice in Fan Movesets like SSF2, Legacy XP, and Crusade that they kinda have to Stretch for Moves for Waluigi. That's why I say that if they do put in Waluigi, they should lean into the Memey Nature of him for Moveset, because otherwise I don't know about Waluigi. Perhaps this could also be Reason why Sakurai might be hesitant to put in Waluigi

Beyond Sakurai Playing Shadow the Hedgehog, He also Finished Sonic 06, and also Apprantly I heard his Favorite Sonic Game is Sonic Heroes.

As For Shadow, Beyond the Assist being in his Favor since he already has a Model to Use (and an easy Skeleton to use in Sonic), Shadow Also has a good Mixture of Casual Popularity, Sonic Fanbase Popularity (2nd Most Popular Character behind Sonic, Smash Request Popularity, and all of that. He's an Iconic character (though not all of it for the best reasons some would say), Many requests for Sonic to get 2nd Character, and He has Interesting Abilities to base a Unique Moveset off of, despite looking Similar to Sonic. So even if there really is No Echo Pack in the future or something like that, I still do think Shadow has good chance, even if there are other Characters, Other Sega Characters like Arle and Kiryu, Other Sonic Characters like Eggman, etc

Also I don't know if it was Mentioned, but I think we know that Sonic usually doesn't do Good in Japan in terms of Sales (which is why the IDW Comics selling out there is Surprising), but SA2 I believe actually did decent. It got Over 100,000 Sales, which relative is really good (for Reference, I believe that's around what Banjo Did). Beyond that I've seen Japanesse Shadow Requests too. We also know Sonic is Huge in Europe, so There's good amount of appeal

I'm also Interested in your Prediction for Master Hand?
 

Janx_uwu

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Master Hand is the only playable character in the history of Smash Bros who isn't on the fighter select screen. That's my biggest tip-off. Everyone is here, yet not really because Master Hand-playable in Ultimate and sort of playable in Melee-is not on the fighter select screen. This leads me to believe that they're saving him for the last reveal (other than bonus Waluigi). He's unexpected yet he makes a lot of sense, and I think he's one of the few characters that everyone would be happy about. Since they downscaled Ridley for Ultimate I'm sure they can do the same to Master Hand.
 

Janx_uwu

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Apparently Fortnite is being rumored for Smash Ultimate. Thoughts?
Personally I would be indifferent, although a Fortnite stage could be really fun, and it would again confirm that popularity = much better chances, which may slightly boost Shadow's chances in the long run.
 

7NATOR

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Just here to remind you guys, Never give up on the Dream

I'll be honest with you guys, I Still Really think Shadow is Coming. No he is not Confirmed for Fighter Pass 2, But I Personally think that he is Playable and Smash Ultimate will be his Time

Also Crazy Prediction, he will also come to Bayonetta 3 as Playable character, so maybe it could set up Shadow getting his Own Game again. Screencap this if it comes true
 
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