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The Ultimate Life Form ~ Shadow the Hedgehog for Smash Ultimate! (Maria...)

SharkLord

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they could implement a system where if someone is playing as shadow, his assist trophy won't appear. that's the most logical thing i see happening,
Yeah, they already have code to remove ATs on certain stages for various reasons (They're already stage cameos, their mechanics clash with the stage, funny little details, etc.). It's not like adding that code would be a big deal.
 

Janx_uwu

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they could implement a system where if someone is playing as shadow, his assist trophy won't appear. that's the most logical thing i see happening,
Or replace it with Silver, who also knows Chaos Control and it would function the same. This is also what I could imagine them doing if Waluigi gets in, replace his AT with the evil Waluigi from Tennis Aces.
 

SharkLord

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Or replace it with Silver, who also knows Chaos Control and it would function the same. This is also what I could imagine them doing if Waluigi gets in, replace his AT with the evil Waluigi from Tennis Aces.
Or we could just leave it in completely unchanged, with Sakurai waving it off as "Actually, it's a Shadow Android. It looks identical, but it's not actually Shadow."
 
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7NATOR

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Or replace it with Silver, who also knows Chaos Control and it would function the same. This is also what I could imagine them doing if Waluigi gets in, replace his AT with the evil Waluigi from Tennis Aces.
If Not Silver, they could also do Metal Sonic, since he also knows Chaos Control. Perhaps they could have both at Random

Or we could just leave it in completely unchanged, with Sakurai waving it off as "Actually, it's a Shadow Android. It looks identical, but it's not actually Shadow."
Though I Think this makes more sense, especially in the Aspect that the Shadow Assist will be Lower Poly than a Playable Shadow, kind of like how the Shadow Androids were more lower Poly than Shadow was

Though I don't think the Shadow Androids Talk, I can't remember exactly

In any case, in regards to Some of my theories around Shadow, I think the Sonic Adventure 3 Theory is more likely than the Bayonetta 3 Theory to be honest, if any of them are actually happening. yes
 

7NATOR

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Tonight at the Game Awards, here's hoping he gets revealed!
Personally I don't Expect Shadow Here, But I at least want to see something New that's Sonic Related, whether it be Sonic Remasters, Sonic adventure 3, Sonic Mania 2, a Crossover, I'd even take a Sonic Forces 2 that's better than the first. anything more than Wallpapers and such
 

7NATOR

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Well Maybe if Bayonetta 3 Shows up, we could at least see if my crazy Theory about Shadow in Bayonetta 3 Comes true

Or, Perhaps we could see Sonic Adventure 3 there, made by Platinum Games or something
 

millsfan

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Sep 5, 2019
Messages
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I can not PROCESS that so many third parties are getting multiple chars and Sonic is still left alone without Shadow.... OH MY GOSH Shadow easily could have been the game awards reveal; I dont get why Shadow wasnt picked over Sep! Shadow has been FAR more fan requested since 2007. They both fit the mold of a third party villain to go with an existing character in the game. Unreal cloud got another rep before Sonic - didnt Sakurai say he had trouble getting Cloud in ultimate? Now he got multiple reps.

That was the closest I have felt to a shadow reveal - we got a third party villain from a character who is in Smash. Im never giving up on Shadow - he is waiting in line. Too popular to not make it - there is a big audience for him. I hope one day he gets revealed
 

7NATOR

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I can not PROCESS that so many third parties are getting multiple chars and Sonic is still left alone without Shadow.... OH MY GOSH Shadow easily could have been the game awards reveal; I dont get why Shadow wasnt picked over Sep! Shadow has been FAR more fan requested since 2007. They both fit the mold of a third party villain to go with an existing character in the game. Unreal cloud got another rep before Sonic - didnt Sakurai say he had trouble getting Cloud in ultimate? Now he got multiple reps.

That was the closest I have felt to a shadow reveal - we got a third party villain from a character who is in Smash. Im never giving up on Shadow - he is waiting in line. Too popular to not make it - there is a big audience for him. I hope one day he gets revealed
Nah, Sephiroth Made much more sense to reveal here than Shadow. FF7 Remake was at the TGA as nomination. Plus It's Sephiroth. Sephiorth was also very popular in Japan in terms of requests

Though with this in Mind, I don't think that Shadow is not getting in cause we got Sephiroth...if anything, this just makes the idea much more likely. I would be shocked if Sonic does not get a 2nd rep in this game at this point
 

7NATOR

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Something Else I was just thinking about

So In regards to the Legacy XP takedown, If it does relate to DLC (Papagenos kind of suggested something happened that involved the mod INDIRECTLY, but it was easy to speculate) it gets more interesting

So Geno, Waluigi, Shadow, and Metal Sonic were the only New Characters before the mod got taken down.

I don't think Geno would be included at this rate with Sephiroth at the mix. I guess anything is possible though, But I'm not buying it. I'm not sure Metal would get in as the 2nd Sonic character

So Was this mod taken down just for a Mii Costume (Perhaps Premium)? Perhaps Because Square might have suggested it, but It's also possible it was destroyed because of Character in here is actually playable. the Chances that character was Shadow is More likely than before
 

StrangeKitten

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It's a little hard to say what the dev team might consider "worthy" of a TGA reveal. We've only had two. They've conveniently lined up well by being characters from games that were nominees, but it's hard to be certain that every TGA reveal will fit that pattern. Shadow's well-known enough that I can see him working well as a TGA reveal even if no Sonic games are nominated for anything. It's just impossible to know whether the dev team would have the character always line up, or if they'd be willing to break that pattern.
 

7NATOR

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I Think Another Sonic Character fits E3 Honestly

That's around the Time of the 30th Anniversary, so there be news on the New Sonic games. In regards to Smash, Any of the Realizable Sonic Characters are

-Iconic to both the Gaming and Casual Audience
-Popular with the Nintendo Crowd
-Popular with the Western Crowd (especially in Europe)
-Very Requested and Popular with the Smash Crowd
-Would probably still be Surprising at the end of the day, though Less so if Eggman or Tails because Sephiroth

So That would be best time honestly


---------------------------------------------------------------

Also Shadow Bros. Just remember that Sephiroth getting in is a Win in out Book.

I Know Speculation will go toward Eggman or Tails as more likely option. Shadow will still be Overshadowed until he gets in, if he gets in. Eggman and Tails could be the Sonic character instead, There may not be another Sonic character.

But Just keep hanging on. I know that the day Shadow will be Playable is coming. I can feel it. yes
 

magiciandude

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So the character that gets joked about being "too edgy" gets passed for another character that the OG "ow the edge" character. Nothing against Sephiroth's inclusion (in fact I really welcome it), but I just find it too hilarious. I'm starting to suspect that it may have been on Sega's side. They were against Sonic being in Brawl at first before they changed their mind.
 

7NATOR

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Alright so I'm gonna have to make a Whole Document or Video, but Today was Interesting

R.I.P Geno

However with Geno being Taken out with his Regular (Not even Premium) Costume, There is something interesting out of this

The Legacy XP Takedown

Between the Fact that this was the Only Mod besides Project M that seemed to be Pressured into Silence (and Legacy XP was not Tournament viable like Project M), and Also Papagenos giving a statement that he'd be given Evidence of something pointing to Certain characters, with Legacy XP 99% being the thing he was talking about, It seemes suspicous

I don't think they would have taken down the Whole Mod just for a Regular Geno Costume. Maybe if it was Premium ,and Nintendo tried to play it off as a Real charcater, maybe, but I can't buy that.

So we're down to 3 Possiblites

Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow

I Love Metal Sonic, but I don't think he'd get in. So it's really between Waluigi and Shadow. It's up to you who you feel is most likely. I personally think it's Shadow, and I think Today might have giving some answers towards Shadow being in
 

Janx_uwu

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Couldn't Infinite be a Shadow Alt? It would be cool, and be hilarious given his character.
It could happen, but I think a certain Shadow rival would be way more interesting and cooler as an alt, not to mention just being easier to make...

Plus he's also a much better villain and rival to Shadow than Infinite don't @ me
 

Ridley64

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It could happen, but I think a certain Shadow rival would be way more interesting and cooler as an alt, not to mention just being easier to make...

Plus he's also a much better villain and rival to Shadow than Infinite don't @ me
That's Mephiles, right? If so, then I wouldn't want a reminder of 'that game'.
 

Janx_uwu

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That's Mephiles, right? If so, then I wouldn't want a reminder of 'that game'.
Same here for Forces. :)
EDIT: And not just that, but Infinite just hardly interacts with Shadow apart from that one DLC cutscene, while Mephelis is a real threat to Shadow, interacts with him on multiple occasions, and tries to question Shadow's purpose-it just makes more sense to include a callback to Mephelis than Infinite.
 
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shinhed-echi

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I have a replacement suggestion.


Emerl.

That's it.
Emerl can copy any ability, it would be a dream come true to see an official 3D render of him, and in smash no less.

Yes, he's not relevant. Though he's Nintendo exclusive. And can any other character beside Shadow and Sonic (and Black Doom or Metal Madness) use chaos control?

If we're going for one-timers, then this would be mine. :)
 
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7NATOR

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Since Mephiles was brought up, I decided to take a another look at the Sonic Spirit Collection

I'm not surprised that characters like Mephiles are missing. What I am surprised about is Zavok, and the Deadly Six being Missing, considering how Sega loves to shove them in Places

Anyway, The Hypothetical Spirit board for Shadow seems like the hardest thing to think of to fill a Challenger pack, however There's enough Sonic characters to use I think to fill a Spirit board. Plus Knuckles needs a Spirit Battle since he doesn't have one yet
 

Wyvy - Phoenix Mode

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Mephiles would be an awesome costume for Shadow. Considering he's literally a plushe toy version of him. Though a costume resembling Infinite is fine too?

You have multiple Shadow Android designs anyway. So you'd have two recolors that are based upon another character, and five which are normal Shadow colors~
 

7NATOR

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When it Comes to Alt Colors, I don't know Limiting Sega will be over Shadow's Colors when compared to Sonic

They had no Problem referencing Mephiles in Sonic Runners, so I think he could show up. It be cool if he had No Mouth and has his 06 Voice actor for that Alt, but I doubt they do the latter, And I'm not even sure on the former

I don't know how they do an Infinite Alt, would they give him the mask?

Sir Lancelot would be promising, but without a Sword it might look a little weird

Vampire Shadow would be Funny, and Him would a Cape would be epic. It's also a Costume Sega themselves made, though I wonder if it might be too much effort to make

You could have alt Colors referencing Silver, His Old design when he was Terios, Perhaps a Maria Inspired alt, and the Shadow Android Colors, among potential other Alts

I think though at the least they will at least have Shadow's Alts change his Red Stripes to other colors. I don't know if Sega has a "Shadow must be a shade of Black" Mandate in there like with Sonic. I Imagine they could at least change the Stripes
 

7NATOR

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Okay So, I think I May have "Finished" My Case for Shadow in Fighter Pass 2 essay. I say May because it's possible there may need to be some changes in the future, but I think most of what I wanted to write is in this essay

Also note, this isn't meant to convince people that Shadow is a lock, or that Shadow will be in Fighter Pass 2. I just want to make Shadow seem like a Realistic and Viable candidate.

I know this thread isn't usually the most alive, but still.

-------------------------------------------------

ShadowSA2.png



Oh so you guys might Think...

The Case for Shadow the Hedgehog in Fighter Pass 2

Table of Contents


---------------------

Counter Argument Section

Assist Trophy
-Precedent
-Why Precedent may/may not be upheld
-Bomberman
-Shadow is a Veteran Assist Trophy

Similarities to Sonic
-”Shadow would have been echo in Base Game”
-Lucina
-Dark Pit
-Daisy
-Richter
-Chrom
-Dark Samus
-Ken
-Sega
-Conclusions
-Benefits
-Downsides


Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles
-What Merits/Advantages does Shadow have over these 3


Would Shadow really be the First Assist Promotion
-Waluigi
-Alucard
-Shovel Knight
-Isaac
-Skull Kid


-------------------------------------------------------------

Shadow’s Merits (using Sourcegaming’s Merit rating)

-Iconicness/Recognizability
-Popularity
-Moveset Viability
-Ease of Implementation
-Relevance
-3rd Party (Sega)


-----------------------------------------------

Miscellaneous

-Shadow's Spirit
-Shadow's Assist Interesting Mechanic
-Legacy XP
-Sakurai likes Edgy Characters


-Arguing just based on the concept of Precedent is heavily flawed. The reasons for this is we have seen many Patterns set by precedent get broken, in just this Fighter Pass

Min-Min broke the Precedent of Spirit Characters not being Playable

Steve Broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Companies not getting more than 1 character in DLC

Sephiroth broke the Precedent of 3rd Party Franchises not getting a unique secondary character, especially during DLC

One could say the best precedent when it comes to Speculation is Precedent itself getting broken with the Characters, with that being said

-Everytime an Assist Character has been promoted (Little Mac, Dark Samus, Isabelle), Their Assist Trophy is not in the game as well. All 3 of these characters were Base Roster Newcomers

-Sakurai made a Statement about Waluigi in Smash 4 that is perhaps the “Best” evidence toward the Assist Trophy rule being an actual thing

AAdgXTAAAUq-.jpg (504×500) (cbsistatic.com)

List of Director's Room Miiverse posts/Archive 3 - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

The thing with this statement is that it’s not specific, in that there are different interpretations you could take from this statement, it could be interpreted as

“Waluigi is Not a Playable Character because he’s an Assist Trophy”

“Waluigi is an Assist Trophy because he’s not a Playable character”

Both statements might sound the same, but have wildly different meanings

The Former suggest that Waluigi being an Assist Trophy is the reason that Waluigi is not a Playable character. The latter suggests that for whatever reason, whether it be because Waluigi did not have enough merits or was out-prioritized, Waluigi could not make it as a Playable character, so he was made an Assist instead. In this case, Waluigi being an Assist is not the reason he is unplayable, but it’s the conclusion of him not being a playable character.


-Sakurai in Ultimate’s Life Cycle has not gone out of his way to confirm the Assist Trophy rule as being a thing. The reason this is important is that he, in Ultimate’s Lifecycle, went out of his way to Re-Confirm an official rule in “No Anime/Manga/Non-video game Origin Characters” in Smash.

Sakurai maintains that manga characters will not be allowed in the Smash Bros. series | GoNintendo

-Assists being NPC’s with 3D Models is a Major factor against them, however we see with Characters like Chrom, who is in Robin’s final Smash, that this is not an issue that will disqualify a character. Of course Chrom is an echo fighter, but the point stands

Chrom also uses the Final Smash model as the basis for his fighter model, so not only does this show that NPC Assets can be used for Playable Characters, but that it might even be easier than regular characters.

-Another Argument is that If an Assist Fighter is Promoted, the Assist has to be taken out of the game, meaning the Assist Trophy was a waste and is also actively taking out content

There is already programming in place though for Assists to not show up under certain conditions however. For example Alucard can’t be summoned on the Wii Fit Stage.

Alucard - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

-Ultimate is a different Case from Brawl and Smash 4 in that Ultimate has extra DLC in the form of Fighter Pass 2.

Brawl never had DLC, so the base roster was all that we got, And Smash Ultimate’s DLC Has lasted/will Last much longer than Wii U’s DLC.

-Bomberman getting a Deluxe Mii Costume in Fighter Pass 2 is important when it comes to the Speculation of Assist Characters

The Main reason is that it shows that Assist Characters are having their roles reconsidered. Fighter Pass 2 was not a thing that was inevitable, otherwise Min-Min likely wouldn’t have a Spirit in the game. There was a possibility that Fighter Pass 1 is all we would have ended up with

In an case, Bomberman, who was already an Assist Trophy, was decided by the Dev team to also get a Mii Costume in the DLC

Bomberman’s Mii Costume is a Deluxe, which means the “Costume” is not just an outfit the Mii’s wear, but a Model Change of some kind. Bomberman shares this distinction with Sans, Cuphead, and Vault Boy

Bomberman’s Mii Costume Model is the Assist Trophy Model that has been Smoothed out in terms of Polygons and such, and fitted to a Brawler’s Skeleton. This once again shows that Asset Re-use from Assist Models is a very viable thing

AAcYEnAABBII.jpg (536×421) (cbsistatic.com)

(Look how similar the models look. That’s the Costume and Assist in the same picture)

Bomberman’s Mii Costume, being DLC, is a Paid Mii Costume you have to buy. One of the arguments against Assist Promotions is that the Smash team wouldn’t want to Sell a Character that already has a 3D Model in the game, as it could be equated to a scam. However Bomberman is being sold for 75 cents. Granted it’s not as much as a Fighter, but it’s something you have to pay for, even more prominent that the Mii Costume is Bomberman’s Assist Model

When Sakurai was talking about Bomberman’s Mii Costume, he mentioned that while Bomberman is an Assist Trophy, He is also a Mii Costume. Sakurai did not state Assists were deconfirmations

https://youtu.be/_Sp5o1JJdDk?t=2423

4:23-4:45

-The reason I Mention this fact is that with Fighter Pass 2 in the mix, the thing with that is that Fighter Pass 2 was not a certain thing to happen. If Min-Min Spirit is any indication, while it might have been in the plans, it was unsure if it would be greenlit

The important thing about this is that if Shadow did not have an Assist Trophy, but Fighter Pass 2 did not happen, then Shadow would just not have his Assist in the game, and that would be a downgrade in content for Shadow

Shadow has been an Assist Trophy for 3 Games now, and he’s a Popular Character in the same vain Waluigi and Lyn are.

The thing to notice is that unlike the Playable Roster, not every Assist was brought back, and Assist Trophies do tend to get cut

Assist Trophy - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Some Prominent cuts from Smash 4 into Ultimate include Saki, Tingle, and Magnus (though Saki got a Mii Costume). Saki, Tingle, and Magnus were seen as less priority for Returning Assist, and were cut for other Assists, probably because they weren’t as Popular

Something to also consider is the Assist that were not in Smash 4, but returned from Brawl: Gray Fox and Isaac

Metal Gear was not represented at all in Smash 4, but is in Smash Ultimate, so Gray Fox not being in Smash 4 but in Ultimate makes sense, but Isaac Really only returned as an Assist because of his Fan Demand and Popularity

Isaac went from no presence in Smash 4 (except Music tracks), to having an Upgraded Assist, His Franchise having the most Spirits of a Non-Playable Franchise (along with Rhythm Heaven, which was planned to have Playable character in Smash 4), and a Mii Costume

The important thing to note is that Isaac having his Assist return shows he’s more of a Priority than characters like Saki, Tingle, and Magnus, yet because Saki, Tingle, and Magnus are not Assists, they are theoretically more likely just on the basis of them not being Assists

All of that applies to Shadow, if Shadow did not have his Assist Return, it would say he’s on the same level as characters that couldn’t have their Assists Return, when that is not the case.

-Before we get any further, yes Shadow could theoretically work as an Echo fighter. He has Very Similar body type to Sonic, and the Moves Sonic does aren’t impossible for Shadow to do. Homing attack and Spindash in particular are Moves Shadow has been shown to do

With that being said, this whole thing about how “If Nintendo couldn’t justify Shadow as an echo, Why would he be DLC” is kind of dismissive of Shadow on his own Merits I’ll say. With that being said, I’ll look at Each Echo Fighter in Smash Ultimate and compare them to Shadow

-Lucina, by the time she had gotten in, Had only been in One game

-Lucina in Canon Fights like Chrom, however according to Sakurai’s Official Statement, Chrom was considered to be the main Newcomer for Fire Emblem Awakening, but that he couldn’t come up with a Moveset that wasn’t “a Mix of Marth and Ike”. Lucina would be the same

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

-Robin was the Main Newcomer in Smash 4. One thing you will realize about not just the clones in Ultimate, but throughout the series, is that a Majority of the clones come from Franchises that get Unique Newcomers in that Same Game

-Dark Pit only had 1 Appearance.

-Palutena was the Main Kid Icarus Newcomer in Smash 4

-I will say that Daisy should not have been a Carbon copy of Peach. I think Peach’s more aggressive looking Melee Moveset would have been a better fit for Daisy

With that being said

-Daisy herself does not have the most material to separate herself from the rest of the cast and Peach. There’s Sports Equipment, but that’s something Any Mario character can equip and it’s not something that defines her as a Character

-Piranha Plant was the Unique Mario Newcomer, however with him being Bonus DLC, it’s unknown if he really was planned from the start

-Simon and Richter share their moveset, as noted by Sakurai. You could argue that Simon is instead Richter’s Echo

-As explained in the Lucina Section, Sakurai was planning to make Chrom the main Fire Emblem Newcomer of Smash 4, but couldn’t come up with a moveset that wasn’t just “a Mix of Marth and Ike”.

“Are The Characters Dancing?” Sakurai’s Famitsu column vol. 430– on Wii Fit Trainer, Megaman, Villager, and a little Chrom – Source Gaming

As Roy’s Echo, Chrom kind does play like that mix, combined with an Up B Like Ike.

-Depending on how Early they were planned, Byleth was probably intended to be the main Fire Emblem Newcomer

-Dark Samus is probably the Echo that’s used as an example the most when Talking about how Shadow would just be an echo

This is because Dark Samus has her own Abilities in Metroid Prime, and even showcased some of them as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4. However with that said, here are some factors to Consider

-Dark Samus has not been relevant in over a Decade by the time she was revealed for Smash Ultimate. Her Last Appearance was around 2007 with Metroid Prime 3 (Not Including Smash).

-Ridley also was the Unique Newcomer for Ultimate. In that vein Dark Samus could be seen as some kind of sacrifice

-Ken has his Unique stuff like his Kick and unique Properties. There’s nothing else to go from here

-Remember that Sega has to agree to make Shadow an Echo of Sonic

Now I know that Shadow has played like Sonic quite a few times in the Sonic series, but that has been a trend that’s been shared by Many characters. Tails in his debuted played like Sonic, and a lot of the time, except for one ability, Sonic Characters a lot of the time play like each other, it’s the type of game Sonic is

This wouldn’t automatically Translate to Smash though. Now I don’t know what the Discussions are between Sega and Nintendo, but the Possibility that Sega is not comfortable with Smash making Shadow an echo Fighter is very realistic. They would likely have their own idea of how they want Shadow to play, or what Abilities to use.

Pretty much the thing to consider is that Shadow himself has the Popularity, Moveset Material, Requests, legacy, Relevance etc, to make it as his own Character.

Echo Fighters in the Series (and clones in general) have typically been characters that either lack one of the above Merits, and/or they are added along with another, Unique, Character from their franchise

There’s also no New Sonic Newcomer that was added Base game, and with there being confirmed no Echoes in the DLC, if a New Sonic Character were to be added, they would be unique

Now If you personally think Eggman, Tails, or Knuckles would be the Character they would choose to fill that Spot, than that is up to you. Shadow though has a good argument going for him being a Unique Character. As such this whole thing with “Shadow would have been in Base Game as an echo” is not something that should stop all further discussions of Shadow as DLC

-Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic benefits him from a Developmental Standpoint, and a Moveset Design Standpoint


-From a Developmental Standpoint, Shadow could reasonably use Sonic’s Skeleton to make Rigging Easier, and also Animating Easier (and that also doesn’t go into re-using some animations)


-From a Moveset Standpoint (and some of these points go hand in hand with Development), Shadow’s Similarities to Sonic allows Shadow to reasonably make use of Some of Sonic’s Unused Moves (Mostly from the Modern Era). Moves like the Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and etc would make sense to be included

The other thing is that it would help Visualizing a Moveset easier. Shadow is meant to Rival Sonic, but he has his own Edge and Flair to everything he does that separates himself from Sonic. With Sonic already in Smash, Sakurai, Sega, and the Rest of the Dev team can Compare Sonic’s Moveset in Smash and then Visualize how Shadow would move, How Shadow would attack

This is also in combination with him already having material for his moveset, with Sonic Battle being a Prime Example (and that Contrasts Sonic taking a good amount of his Moves from Sonic the Fighters)

This also isn’t just for Attacks, but Sonic’s Stats are a good base for seeing what would fit Shadow.

-Shadow having kind of a Similar Visual Silhouette to Sonic Might be bad from this Philosophy

https://youtu.be/w8H5QkOIT_s

GDC-Scan-03.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

Granted the youtube video is just an interpretation, but something to consider



-No Matter how unique he would hypothetically turn out, as a DLC Character, there might be more apprehension because he does look similar to another character on the Roster.

What merit does Shadow have over these 3?

-2nd Most Popular Character in the Sonic Fanbase

https://youtu.be/DbrBpQVwINo

Sega (through Eggman) themselves saying He (Shadow) is the 2nd Most Popular Character, behind Sonic

-Shadow is Head of Sonic Team, Iizuka’s, Favorite Character





-Shadow has his own interesting Mechanics different from the other 3 Sonic Characters (More in Moveset Viability) that revolve around Space and Time Manipulation at the least


-Shadow would be the easiest Character to Implement, has he has Very Similar Body type to Sonic and could reasonably use his Skeleton, and also Has an Assist Trophy Model.

-Shadow’s debut Game, SA2, was the game that got Nintendo Audiences into the Sonic Franchise.

-Now this doesn’t mean Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles don’t have their own merits, they have merits that Rival or even surpass Shadow in Some aspects, but it’s not like Shadow has no reason to get in over these 3, he does.

-Yes, Waluigi is the most popular requested Assist Trophy

-With that being said, the main thing to consider is that there is more to the discussion than requests though

-Shadow is more important to his Franchise than Waluigi is. I don’t know the full details of this Mario Mandate, but it seems to prevent Waluigi from apperaincing in a Mainline Mario game. Now Waluigi does appear and Smash, and the Mario Spinoffs are very popular games, but still

-Shadow has more consistent Movepool and Abilities than Waluigi does, which would make conceptualizing a Moveset for him easier than with Waluigi, not trying to say Waluigi does not have any abilities, just that they are very inconsistent

-Mario already has 9 Characters in this game, and 2 of them were newcomers to this game, on the other hand Sonic, which has been very requested to get a 2nd Character, has not gotten one yet.

Sakurai notes that Representation is factored into the character choices

GDC-Scan-01.png (1515×1076) (wp.com)

Sakurai’s GDC 2008 Presentation Slides – Source Gaming

-With that being said, I will say that Waluigi is a very big competitor to Shadow for the Assist Promotion spot (If there were only one).

-Alucard was considered to be the Castlevania rep according to Sakurai, but instead went with Simon/Richter

-However keep in Mind that Most characters that get in don’t have Sakurai if they were considered beforehand.

Ridley, Banjo, and Min-Min (through ARMS) were the only characters that Sakurai talked about in a Column before they got in.

-Alucard is very popular within his Franchise, but so is Shadow, so they are on the Same Wavelength. Sonic hasn’t gotten a New character in this game unlike Castlevania though

-Not much to say about Shovel Knight vs Shadow. I will say Shadow has been a more recurring Character for about 2 Decades, and has gone around more than Shovel Knight. With that being said, not much else to say

-Isaac is a heavily requested character on the same wavelength as Geno I’d say (when he’s not an Assist). With that being said, the problem he has is that his Franchise is on hiatus.

I would say a Character/Franchise on Hiatus would have a harder time getting on the DLC Roster than the Base Roster due to the fact that DLC roster has to sell on their Character/Franchise Merit, and is not included with a Full Packaged game.

Now Banjo is kind of the exception, but Banjo does at least get used in Rare Replay, and Phil Spencer was a huge advocate for the idea. It also expanded the Nintendo and Microsoft Relationship

In terms of Relevance and outside Smash Popularity, Shadow has Isaac beat.

-Not much to say on Skull Kid honestly, except that the Ancient Armor Costume might imply we not getting another Zelda character, but that’s not really something that deals with Skull Kid’s merits or anything like that

Overall, I do think Shadow has a good shot to be the First Assist Promotion. I would say the Main Competition is Waluigi, but I do think there is stuff that Shadow has over Waluigi.

Uses Sourcegaming’s Merit checking box

https://youtu.be/ow-k9ZLFaRk?t=100

1:40-2:10

-Now compared to Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles, Shadow is probably not as recognizable as them because he wasn’t in the OG Trilogy of Games, and his Appearances in Other Media and Shows tend to be more sparse (As an example, he’s only appeared in 2 Episodes of Sonic Boom, while Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles have frequent appearances

With that being said, Shadow is still a heavily Recognizable character. He still does make appearances that leave out other Modern Era Characters. He’s appeared in Sonic Boom (Cartoon), Lego Dimensions (with Big and Chaos), and both the Sonic All Star Racing games He’s very popular with the Nintendo Crowd since his game was the one that exposed them to Sonic

I also think he benefits from Having a Similarities to Sonic because even if they don’t exactly know who he is, they can still recognize he comes from Sonic

In Japan, (and this goes for Sonic in general), He Might be more niche because Sonic isn’t as big in Japan as everywhere else. At the least, among Sonic fans in Japan he’s recognizable and such.

-As Mentioned, Shadow is the 2nd Most Popular Sonic Character, behind Sonic

-In terms of Smash Requests, Shadow, along with Tails and Knuckles have been very requested characters since Sonic got in, and there were even requests for these 3 even before Sonic got in. Now whoever of these characters dominates sometimes Depends. At one Point Knuckles was the most popular request (Smash 4) at least with the hardcore fourms. On Miiverse and Twitter Shadow was especially popular. IGN Rallied fans to voted for Tails.

Eggman has definitely been more requested for Ultimate’s lifecycle, regarding DLC

Shadow’s Popularity within Smash Fanbase exploded during Ultimate’s Base game Speculation cycle, along with Waluigi, Skull Kid, Geno, Isaac, Ashley, and others

-You’ll 99% of the time see Another Sonic character in Smash fanmods or Fangames. It usually varies betweens Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, or a combination of the three, with Rarely other Sonic characters like Metal Sonic

There’s even a Brawl Modpack that’s exclusively about Sonic Characters

SONIC SMASH BROS EDITION - Brawl Mod - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMhREYOZIA

Chaos powers | Sonic News Network | Fandom
Light Speed Dash | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Boost | Sonic News Network | Fandom

Black Tornado | Sonic News Network | Fandom


-As a unique character, Shadow does have the following abilities and potential Moveset ideas to Implement

Sonic’s unused Abilities like Light Speed Dash, Boost Attack, Black Tornado, and more.

Chaos Control, which allows control over Space and Time. Shadow usually uses these Abilities in an Aggressive manner or to Show off. Shadow will probably have a lot of Teleportation in his Moveset, in regards to Mobility and potentially Rushdown abilities, like Teleport Combos, or Moves with Teleports ingrained into them

Teleports so far have mostly just been a Recovery tool, as you’re put in Freefall if used in the air. To stay true to the Canon, Shadow’s Teleport will probably be used less as a Recovery Tool, and more for pressuring the Opponent

Shadow can also Slow and/or Freeze time, which could be the Highest Risk/Reward move if Implemented in a balanced manner

Chaos Spear is a move that has had different functions over the years. Shadow can fire one Strong Projectile, or a Group of Smaller Projectiles, or fire one after the other. He can make the Spears home in. He can fire it into the Air to Make it Rain. Combined with the Concept of Manipulating Space and Time, could be used as Delayed projectile of some kind. It’s a very versatile projectile

Chaos Blast is an Explosive Technique that has Shadow surround himself in Chaos Energy. Kind of like Magic Burst from Hero, though not tied to RNG

Shadow has had a Boost Mode Mechanic of some kind in games like Shadow the Hedgehog and 06, and also shown off in other Media like the comics and Sonic X. By Removing the Inhibitor rings on his ARMS, he can Power himself up and unlock destructive abilities (like the Aforementioned Chaos Blast). This tires himself out though

I could see this working as a Transformation you can activate at anytime, which is a Far cry from Other transformations as you either have to charge them or you get them by taking damage or something like that. The Downside would either that you have to Leave yourself open after the Transformation Dies out, or it Works like Kaioken from DBZ and you take Damage as you’re in this mode

There’s also other Techniques he’s shown in games like Sonic Battle, along with his Rocket Skates. Like with Ridley, who doesn’t use his wings in battle, but does here, Shadow would likely make use of the Flames under his Rocket Skates. Legacy XP is a Example of this concept

-Shadow has a Similar body type to Sonic type, so he could reasonably make use of Sonic’s Skeleton for rigging and perhaps Animating, and the such, allowing for Easier Development

-Shadow also has an Assist Model in game. As we saw with Bomberman, and other Mii costumes like Isaac and Skull Kid, Assist Assets can be repurposed for other avenues like Mii costumes, and Chrom, as a Final Smash NPC, shows that NPC Models can be repurposed for Non-Mii Characters, though Shadow should probably have his model Smoothed out

Post that shows the Similarities between Isaac Assist and Isaac Mii (it’s the same)

Sunrise Up Again! Isaac for Smash Ultimate DLC | Page 972 | Smashboards

-Shadow’s Toolkit along with his Speed would be quite a task to balance, but balancing would be easier in that there’s more time to allocate to it, Since Shadow has the above Advantages in his favor

-Shadow is heavily relevant to the Sonic Franchise, as even if he’s not in the Starring role, he does make frequent Appearances. He was made Playable in forces after a Decade of not being Playable in Mainline Game, and he’s been on the cover for Forces, TSR, and the Mobile game

-Sonic as a Franchise has been relevant as well, With Mania and Forces (well better or worse) were games that released in 2017. The Mobile game Sonic Forces Speed Battle (or just titled Sonic Forces these days), The Movie that came out in 2020, and Comics and Licensing deals. Sonic will be Heavily relevant in 2020 (with the movie) and 2021, as 2021 is the 30th anniversary, and there are games planned for the 30th anniversary. 2020/2021 are the years Fighter Pass 2 will be in Production

-Sega likes to License Sonic out. They’ve licensed him in OK KO, Lego Dimensions, Ninjala, Fall Guys to name a Few Appearances

-Sonic has always had a good amount of the supporting case as Trophies/Spirits. Shadow has been an Assist for 3 Games and Knuckles was a newly added one this game

While the Colors with Sonic and the Initial refusal of Sonic in Brawl might imply Sega is strict with Sonic, there’s more to suggest that they are open to collabs and such like that

Overall, Shadow has good stats in all the merits presented here. He’s Iconic/Recognizable character, Popular both in and outside of Smash (though he’s also a very controversial character), Has ALot of potential for a unique Playstyle, despite his similarities to Sonic, Easier to Implement than a usual Character because he has assets ingame he can reasonable re-use, and he’s a Relevant Character and will continue to be relevant in years to come. Sega is also very into Licensing out their characters, Like Sonic and the gang.

This section is talking about things that might seem very Conspiracy theory, or not definite. Keep that in mind when reading


-Shadow, along with Eggman, is the only Sonic Character to have a 4 Star Spirit. Shadow’s 4 Star Spirit is Super Shadow, which completes Super Sonic. This could imply that the team see Shadow in the same wavelength as Sonic in a lot of aspects, especially since Shadow is the only character to have a Super form in this game

List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Shadow’s Spirit Battle also does not use the Dark Sonic Costume, but the Neon blue one, Which confirms the team does not see the Dark Sonic Costume as a Shadow Replacement. In the Series history, Character alts have been a thing to represent Characters unplayable on the roster, as Daisy, Dark Samus, Chrom, and Wolf (in Smash 4) will tell you. Characters like Waluigi have Alts that represent them



List of spirits (Sonic the Hedgehog series) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki (ssbwiki.com)

Besides upgraded Animations, Shadow now has a 2nd Phase where he completely Stops time. If you hit an Opponent when they are in Stopped in time, they react to the hit, but don’t get Knocked back because they are frozen in time

There is no other Character, Boss, NPC or place where this “Complete Stop in time” Mechanic is used. At best, the Regular Time slow is used for other Mechanics (Timer, Witch Time, Dharkon’s Void attack)

A Potential theory is that They might have used Shadow’s Assist Trophy to test this type of mechanic, since Complete Stop in time is completely unique to the Smash series, possibly for a future character in DLC...Like Shadow himself

-Legacy XP was a Mod that had Geno, Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow (talking about Characters currently not in Ultimate)

However the Mod was at its most popular in May of 2018, a Month before Ultimate was officially revealed. This Mod also had Ridley in it. Ridley would be the big E3 Reveal along with Ultimate, and this Legacy XP Mod had people think it was the newest Smash game. This Mod was allowed to stay up

In March of 2020, The Mod was taken down by the Creators. Since then there’s been Speculation that the Mod was taken down because there was a Character in this Mod that will have a Presence in the DLC, Likely Playable

Nintendo does take things down, but they usually do them for a Reason. AM2R was Taken down, and Samus Returns (Nintendo’s Metroid 2 Remake) will come out around a year later, Mario Bros Battle Royale was taken down because Mario 35 was a thing, and more

Here’s some Screenshots and stuff from Papagenos to add to this discussion

proxy.php (400×212) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (324×300) (smashboards.com)

proxy.php (1179×623) (smashboards.com)

papa (google.com)



Geno was a returning Mii costume from Smash 4, and his Mii costume is not Premium, but just the regular one Very Slightly changed, but barely noticeable.

It’s possible that if Nintendo Pressured the takedown of this Mod, They may have taken it down for the Regular Geno Mii costume...I doubt it though

If the Mod was taken down because of a Character, then the remaining options are Waluigi, Metal Sonic, and Shadow the Hedgehog. Your conclusions is up to you

-in the Terry Presentation, he mentioned on how Iori Design was brilliant, and that puts focus on something that we should have noticed

https://youtu.be/yK3VltKv3JI?t=1550

25:50-26:03

Dark Pit, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Dark Samus, Wolf… Sakurai is in love with Edgy Rival Character it seems

Shadow is Sonic’s “Edgy” Rival. Yes

Hero_04.png


This Concludes the Essay, I might make some edits to it, from perhaps your feedback, or if I think of something else, but until then, Sayanora! See you from the Shadows
 
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Mushroomguy12

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7NATOR

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So I say this with the upmost confidence, that this will happen

Shadow is Challenger Pack 9, and there is no doubt in my mind

I tried to tell people through the regular way of giving reasons, including that essay, but No would really listen to it

I've tried everything, but nothing as Change, so I'll just put this out there

Shadow will be revealed as the next character. I'll still myself be surprised because my Brain needs all the time to process the trailer as real and not just being an imagination of my mind.

Vergeben doesn't know, Imran doesn't know. I do though. We'll also get Scorpion as the next character after Shadow, but that's not the focus

I'm telling this thread because I know the people here really want Shadow. I feel like I've alienated myself with my Shadow support. I don't Insult other characters. If I don't think they are happening I usually give reasons why, but also say that it's still possible.

I've just been a very strong Shadow supporter, but I still get mocked and ridiculed and looked at as delusional. I'm tired of it, So I want you all to know that I knew he would happen as Unique character from the very beginning

I was wrong about him being Base roster, but I'm not wrong about him being Playable in this game as his own character. We only have to wait a few months longer to play as him in an official game without mods. Be Patient, and stay alive. Have hope
 

Aboyd

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Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Messages
8
So I say this with the upmost confidence, that this will happen

Shadow is Challenger Pack 9, and there is no doubt in my mind

I tried to tell people through the regular way of giving reasons, including that essay, but No would really listen to it

I've tried everything, but nothing as Change, so I'll just put this out there

Shadow will be revealed as the next character. I'll still myself be surprised because my Brain needs all the time to process the trailer as real and not just being an imagination of my mind.

Vergeben doesn't know, Imran doesn't know. I do though. We'll also get Scorpion as the next character after Shadow, but that's not the focus

I'm telling this thread because I know the people here really want Shadow. I feel like I've alienated myself with my Shadow support. I don't Insult other characters. If I don't think they are happening I usually give reasons why, but also say that it's still possible.

I've just been a very strong Shadow supporter, but I still get mocked and ridiculed and looked at as delusional. I'm tired of it, So I want you all to know that I knew he would happen as Unique character from the very beginning

I was wrong about him being Base roster, but I'm not wrong about him being Playable in this game as his own character. We only have to wait a few months longer to play as him in an official game without mods. Be Patient, and stay alive. Have hope
I'd like to ask...and you can decline answering...but do you have some kind of inside source or are you making predictions based on information and trends?
 

7NATOR

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I'd like to ask...and you can decline answering...but do you have some kind of inside source or are you making predictions based on information and trends?
Combination of Both. The Inside info is not conclusive enough to say Shadow is in, but combined with some of the information we've been given about the game leads to the Conclusion that Shadow is Playable
 

Sigran101

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I think Shadow is being SERIOUSLY slept on. If Final Fantasy gets a second unique character then I can only imagine another Sonic character is on the way too. This is coming from someone who knows nothing about Shadow and doesn't play Sonic. I've actually been arguing against the possibility of Shadow getting in since before the first trailer for smash 4, but now I'm betting on him. That said, ya'll need to stop with the legacy XP thing. I said the same thing in the Geno thread (he was my most wanted) and I'll say it again here: if it meant something Nintendo would have taken it down for Ridley. Shadow is super likely even without that. Anyway, sorry for rambling, just wanted to say I'm jumping ship from the "Shadow has no chance" crowd to the "Shadow's a front-runner" crowd.
 

millsfan

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Messages
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I was so disappointed to see Street Fighter, final fantasy, and castlevania all get multiple characters in shorter amounts of years than Sonic (who has been here since brawl).

I’ve wanted shadow since we saw sonic in 2007. Somewhat lost hope. Maybe if they do the assist upgrade dlc pack 3.

Smash legacy xp is a good reference for his moveset, but I like his down B in Smash flash 2 mod by Znx. It’s a counter where he uses teleportation
 

7NATOR

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
3,486
Hmmm

Yeah I did say that. I do think Shadow will still be in, no doubt about it, but personally I might have overreacted on him being CP9 personally

I think I should have just stuck with the OG Timeline and just went with him being June, so like CP10 or CP11. If we getting the reveal this early, than personally I think we''d get every character revealed by June, so I honestly think he'd be CP11

Also by this same logic, I don't expect Eggman (if he was chosen) to be revealed tomorrow either. Stay in the Shadows though though guys
 
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millsfan

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
62
Watch shadow in the game Sonic Battle on the GBA. Then watch shadows abilities in Smash legacy XP, and Smash flash 2 mod by ZNX.

Shadow has awesome chaos abilities that make for a unique moveset. I do not get why so many third parties have multiple characters, yet Sonic (who has been here longer than any third party and is closer with Mario than any third party character), still only has Sonic as the only sonic fighter.

Smash ultimate could only include so many fighters in the base game with the development time allotted. Similarly to how Fighter pass 2 is adding characters they did not have time to include in the base game (an arms character, Steve was in talks for 5 years and did not make it in base game, more final fantasy representation, and now the xenoblade 2 content Sakurai said was not able to happen for base game).

I wish they’d make a fighter pass 3 that upgrades popular assist trophy characters people have wanted since brawl (Shadow, Isaac, Krystal, skull kid, etc).

Im losing hope for Shadow, but also feel like he’s just waiting in line and will make it eventually after characters immensely popular such as Ridley, Banjo etc have now moved out of the line
 
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