The Tunes Official Crew Thread - Legit the best crew in the world.

[Scar]

Point is I'm still going to play/practice Melee while entering tournies in it but I'll be playing Brawl more since I have alot more to learn compared to how much I know in Melee. Yes, I still think I have alot to learn in Melee too but that amount cannot compare to Brawl imo since I've only played it for like 3 weeks.

This statement is false.

Also, good points, and go have fun with both games. You have my blessing, and I choose not to walk down that path.

 

[JFox]

Scar, I suggest you just play the game and have fun with it. It might turn into a more advanced game than you thought. I'm just sayin you are passing judgement far too early. I think its because you are just so jealous that brawl has a strong following, that you are trying to take a stand against it with the hope that other "serious melee smashers" will do the same, leaving some competition left. But you CAN just play both, and see if maybe you end up liking the game.

All I'm sayin is every statement you have made comparing the two games are all based on assumptions. You won't know how it is until you play it for like, a few years.

 

[Keitaro]

This statement is false.

Also, good points, and go have fun with both games. You have my blessing, and I choose not to walk down that path.

Okay, so are you trying to say that as much as I know now in Melee is just as much as I know in Brawl?

3 weeks barely competitive in Brawl?

1 + 1/2 years competitve in Melee?

Even if you think Brawl has nearly nothing to learn these are the facts. It is impossible to say there isn't much to learn in a game that no one can say they are good at. And if anyone dares to say they are then they aren't thinking correctly.

 

[Scar]

Okay, so are you trying to say that as much as I know now in Melee is just as much as I know in Brawl?

I'm saying that there is an unimaginable vastness of depth to explore Melee, and Keitaro, pal, you're not too deep into it. Brawl really honestly seems pretty shallow. Everything will advance to a point, but even if it gets significantly deeper it still won't come close to SSBM.

I frankly am tired of hearing that it's too early, too. Most games don't have as many advanced techs as Melee. I'm pretty sure that none do. Melee competitively is an entirely different game than Melee casually. It's not just faster, we move differently, we think differently, we can manipulate the game in ways that others would never be able to do on their own.

But I mean I don't have to keep talking about it if that's the problem. We all know where I stand, and I know that no matter how many times I try to discuss something, someone else will throw out a meaningless wall of hope such as "you just wait" or "it's too early" or "we don't know anything about Brawl yet." These phrases really are pretty tired at this point.

I've played the game, I've seen its flaws, and there are far too many for me to even entertain the idea that it can reach Melee's level of depth.

 

[Keitaro]

I'm saying that there is an unimaginable vastness of depth to explore Melee, and Keitaro, pal, you're not too deep into it. Brawl really honestly seems pretty shallow. Everything will advance to a point, but even if it gets significantly deeper it still won't come close to SSBM.

I frankly am tired of hearing that it's too early, too. Most games don't have as many advanced techs as Melee. I'm pretty sure that none do. Melee competitively is an entirely different game than Melee casually. It's not just faster, we move differently, we think differently, we can manipulate the game in ways that others would never be able to do on their own.

But I mean I don't have to keep talking about it if that's the problem. We all know where I stand, and I know that no matter how many times I try to discuss something, someone else will throw out a meaningless wall of hope such as "you just wait" or "it's too early" or "we don't know anything about Brawl yet." These phrases really are pretty tired at this point.

I've played the game, I've seen its flaws, and there are far too many for me to even entertain the idea that it can reach Melee's level of depth.

I get your point and agree with you that Melee will most likely be more in depth than Brawl but:

I can **** a person who has played for 5 years, jv 4 stock him with Luigi, and do it all by mainly chaingrabbing. I dont' play Luigi. Yes this guy does not play competively. But your claim that how much I need to learn in Brawl is = to how much I need to know in Melee does not make any sense as you do not know how much there is to learn in Brawl.

Also, people telling you to "just wait" or "have patience" is annoying you but what do you expect them to say when the game barely came out 3 weeks ago you're going hard with your expectations about it like Sakurai spoon fed you when you were an infant?

Your assumptions about things are too much for me to handle. I'm gonna go play Street Fighter 4 for 3 days and trash talk it on Shoryuken.com and get a bunch of great Street Fighter 3 players to agree with me oblivious to the fact they don't really know **** about the new game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You probably could Keitaro.

The SF4 forums at SRK are just as bad as the Brawl forums here. LOL.

 

[Rain(ame)]

O_O this is gettin' scary. It's because I can't side with either one of you. O.o I don't know a whole about the game, and you both have good points. *watches the DBZ-style saga continue* I wonder how many episodes this will be?

 

[Inui]

Brawl will end up being a much deeper game than you think, Scar.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But not deeper then Melee.

Which was his entire point to begin with.

>_>

 

[SwiftBass]

Ppl were not in the same mindset when melee came out. Back then smash 64 was barely competitive and no one was looking for a metagame as ppl are now. But now with the release of brawl there is a whole community trying to crack some kind of metagame out of it. While I wouldnt say that ur 1 1/2 years vs ur 3 weeks of brawl is the same, I would say that the ratio between time and knowledge with brawl is better than melees when it first came out.

Brawl will end up being a much deeper game than you think, Scar.

that will be false. Im not a super brawl hater ima get it @ release but thats just false.

 

[Scar]

I can **** a person who has played for 5 years, jv 4 stock him with Luigi, and do it all by mainly chaingrabbing. I dont' play Luigi. Yes this guy does not play competively. But your claim that how much I need to learn in Brawl is = to how much I need to know in Melee does not make any sense as you do not know how much there is to learn in Brawl.

Also, people telling you to "just wait" or "have patience" is annoying you but what do you expect them to say when the game barely came out 3 weeks ago you're going hard with your expectations about it like Sakurai spoon fed you when you were an infant?

First, that example makes no sense. Chaingrabbing a n00b and ****** them is awesome, it just shows that at the worst level of Smash (I call Melee "Smash" and Brawl "Brawl")there is nothing you can do vs a competitive player. Well that does more for my side than yours.

Second, my claim is not what you stated. My claim is this: I know that what you don't know about Melee is more than what you don't know about Brawl.

The game is just that deep, and if you don't agree with me then I will argue that it's because you have no idea how deep Melee actually is. I don't know how deep Brawl is going to get, but from what I do know about it, I can say with confidence that it's very unlikely that Brawl has nearly as much to offer as Melee does. I understand that you and Inui can say without any justifiable confidence at all the Brawl will be deep, but I can't accept something you're pulling out of the air. Please pardon me.

I don't understand your spoon fed comment, it really just isn't that coherent. But I'll respond anyways by saying that I have played the game, what I say about it is rooted in fact. I have seen the depth of the system and it seems like the majority of the game will be camping and outsmarting people, which has about as much depth as a game of rock, paper, scissors. With Melee you need to understand A LOT MORE before you can simplify it to a rock, paper, scissors level. That is what depth is.

And comparing me to you as a new SF4 player is laughable, not to mention irrelevant.

Brawl will end up being a much deeper game than you think, Scar.

How can you say that though? It feels like I'm arguing faith with a Christian. They just say "well believe it," and I use my mind and realize that it just doesn't make any sense based on the facts available to me at this point in time. I'm a rational creature, I don't take anything without thinking about it as much as is possible first.

This statement means as much to me as a devout Catholic saying "There is a God."

Edit: Swift and Marcel seem to understand my arguments pretty well too, so just throw them in as something else I would say. I mean Marcel basically just said "Inui, what you just said means nothing in the context of this argument." That's what I'm trying to get at with the Christian thing. You guys are typing a lot, but really saying nothing.

I can sort of compare my words to Melee. I say a lot of stuff, and I'm trying to convey things, and they have meaning and are somewhat deep. You guys say stuff too, but it's really shallow and doesn't have much meat behind it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robert = Athiest?

Hawtness.

 

[Eggm]

Swift thats exactly what i've been thinking. Its not going to take over a year to find a game breaking tech (wding) because of melee having been so compeitive and all those experienced players will be looking for those, as oppose to when melee came out there wasn't. I wish I were good with words i could add so much to this whole thing. Swift/scar are amazing.

 

[Keitaro]

First, that example makes no sense. Chaingrabbing a n00b and ****** them is awesome, it just shows that at the worst level of Smash (I call Melee "Smash" and Brawl "Brawl")there is nothing you can do vs a competitive player. Well that does more for my side than yours.

Second, my claim is not what you stated. My claim is this: I know that what you don't know about Melee is more than what you don't know about Brawl.

The game is just that deep, and if you don't agree with me then I will argue that it's because you have no idea how deep Melee actually is. I don't know how deep Brawl is going to get, but from what I do know about it, I can say with confidence that it's very unlikely that Brawl has nearly as much to offer as Melee does. I understand that you and Inui can say without any justifiable confidence at all the Brawl will be deep, but I can't accept something you're pulling out of the air. Please pardon me.

I don't understand your spoon fed comment, it really just isn't that coherent. But I'll respond anyways by saying that I have played the game, what I say about it is rooted in fact. I have seen the depth of the system and it seems like the majority of the game will be camping and outsmarting people, which has about as much depth as a game of rock, paper, scissors. With Melee you need to understand A LOT MORE before you can simplify it to a rock, paper, scissors level. That is what depth is.

And comparing me to you as a new SF4 player is laughable, not to mention irrelevant.



How can you say that though? It feels like I'm arguing faith with a Christian. They just say "well believe it," and I use my mind and realize that it just doesn't make any sense based on the facts available to me at this point in time. I'm a rational creature, I don't take anything without thinking about it as much as is possible first.

This statement means as much to me as a devout Catholic saying "There is a God."

Edit: Swift and Marcel seem to understand my arguments pretty well too, so just throw them in as something else I would say. I mean Marcel basically just said "Inui, what you just said means nothing in the context of this argument." That's what I'm trying to get at with the Christian thing. You guys are typing a lot, but really saying nothing.

I can sort of compare my words to Melee. I say a lot of stuff, and I'm trying to convey things, and they have meaning and are somewhat deep. You guys say stuff too, but it's really shallow and doesn't have much meat behind it.

I still see the same problem with you here. You are assuming too too much as usual.

I did not say Brawl will be deep.

I do not know how deep Brawl will be and

You do not know how deep Brawl will be either.

You do not know my assumption on how deep I think Melee is cause everytime you mention me not knowing something about it you talk as if I think I'm a beast at it when I'm clearly not. You also talk as if you know the exact depht of Melee and that I clearly don't.

The spoon fed comment was an example to show how you think you know how great Brawl will be or how great it won't be as if you came from the future "sorry if that sounded similar to the spoon fed thing"

Inui should just stop posting cause it is not helping nor am I agreeing with him.

My point is the same over and over again. Even if Melee is as deep as the Niagra Falls, you do not know how deep Brawl will be and even if you had a close estimate in the end I still don't see your reason for making such great assumptions.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Most games don't have as many advanced techs as Melee. I'm pretty sure that none do. Melee competitively is an entirely different game than Melee casually. It's not just faster, we move differently, we think differently, we can manipulate the game in ways that others would never be able to do on their own.

I think Melty Blood is a much deeper game than Melee because I feel it requires more thinking and way more tech skill. So HA

 

[Scar]

You do not know my assumption on how deep I think Melee is cause everytime you mention me not knowing something about it you talk as if I think I'm a beast at it when I'm clearly not. You also talk as if you know the exact depht of Melee and that I clearly don't.

OK, so I do see where you're coming from now. But you're assuming that it takes a lot of time to realize how deep a game is. It doesn't necessarily take that much time. And I'm not making an assumption, I'm making a confident prediction. I predict with much confidence that Brawl does not have nearly as much to offer as Melee did and still does.

Again, I repeat, that doesn't mean that I don't think Brawl will take over, that doesn't mean I don't think it should. Due to the way the world works, it only makes sense, especially since people who aren't willing to get very deep in video games (a majority of the population I would assume) can still enjoy this game at a competitive level.

As for what i quoted, I'm not saying that you think you're a beast. I'm just saying that I do know better than you do how deep Melee is, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I also am pretty confident in saying that you haven't gotten good enough to possibly be able to appreciate how much the game has to offer. So no to the first sentence, and yes to the second.

I think Melty Blood is a much deeper game than Melee because I feel it requires more thinking and way more tech skill. So HA

Very well done Spam. You have once again taken a tangential point, disproven it (by opinion, mind you) , and then used it as a basis to disprove the rest of the argument. Excellent.

 

[Pakman]

I didn't want to post here, because I feel similar to Scar (aside from his anti christian sentiments). I want to get semi specific about brawl's shortcomings. I've been playing brawl for a couple weeks and I noticed something. I have been having a lot of fun playing melees(brawls?) and teams.

However, once we started doing 1v1s frustration set in. It pisses me off that my only approach options are jumping and dashing. Since you can't break out of your dash without jumping, approaching ground attacks are limited to dash attack and upsmash. If your character's air priority sucks you get ***** when you jump. The air dodge system helps but is hard to use offensively.

In melee, playing characters that weren't top tier was easier, because it was easier to minimize character weaknesses. In brawl, Nintendo tried to even the playing field for all characters, and they did a decent job. But the weaknesses that are intact and so much more pronounced. Characters without a good projectile can do virtually nothing about people who camp. Characters who aren't powerful CANNOT KILL at normal high percents. It frequently takes me 500-600% to take 3 stocks with certain characters. Some characters can't safely attack someone's sheild from the air regardless of spacing. Some characters can't avoid being counterhit when they successfully land a rather strong attack.

I could not have played melee if character weaknesses were like brawls. And these are not limited to a small subset of characters.

 

[NJzFinest]

Once the "competitive" Brawl community becomes solid, people are going to find out the most ridculous/godly **** in Melee. Like, how people found out amazing **** in Smash64 after the competitive Melee community was a couple of years old.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWmw7FOf-n8

 

[Keitaro]

As for what i quoted, I'm not saying that you think you're a beast. I'm just saying that I do know better than you do how deep Melee is, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I also am pretty confident in saying that you haven't gotten good enough to possibly be able to appreciate how much the game has to offer. So no to the first sentence, and yes to the second.

Even if I am to make the agreement that you do know more than me in Melee it still does not cover the fact that your extremely confident early assumptions on how good Brawl will be make any sense or have greater credibility than my own.

In the end, I'm just going to take it as your own opinion and pass by it until it goes away cause clearly my point is not getting across to you if you end up stating you know more Melee than me and that I'm not good enough to know Melee in a prediction of how competitive Brawl will be in a Brawl/Melee discussion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do you really think Brawl will ever be as deep as this?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=105433

 

[Cia]

everthing is..

TL;DR

 

[slikvik]

^^^tl;dr

read it b4. good stuff. I even made my own mix-up game for peach because of it

 

[pockyD]

why'd you have to bash god?

 

[teh_spamerer]

Very well done Spam. You have once again taken a tangential point, disproven it (by opinion, mind you) , and then used it as a basis to disprove the rest of the argument. Excellent.

The only thing I was aiming to disprove is your notion that melee is the deepest game programmed in the universe until the Earth explodes.

 

[teh_spamerer]

ugh double post cuz smashboards was lagging and sucking.

 

[Scar]

I want to get semi specific about brawl's shortcomings.

If you didn't read this post, please re-read it. It covers a lot of ground and gives Keitaro something to think about. Keitaro, my opinions and confident assumptions are based on facts like these. Simple structures of the game that are very simple yet extremely effective. It reduces the game to a campfest, which is not deep.

Once you think of a way to get around a Marth literally camping retreating fairs with a character like Luigi, then maybe the game is more.

...it still does not cover the fact that your extremely confident early assumptions on how good Brawl will be make any sense or have greater credibility than my own.

No, that post alone didn't cover it, but every preceding one did. Remember the like.. 7 pages of me listing specific reasons and explanations backing my points? They're still there, and no one has responded to them besides "Just you wait." And that's not enough to disprove me.

The only thing I was aiming to disprove is your notion that melee is the deepest game programmed in the universe until the Earth explodes.

A tangential point. Which has nothing to do with my main points. Sort of like Inui taking my whole post about options and turning it into "WTF r u tlakin bout velocity got 3stockd by me LOLZ bob$ pwnz." It has nothing to do with the meat of my case, and really no one has responded even semi-intelligently yet. In like 10+ pages.

 

[teh_spamerer]

A tangential point. It has nothing to do with the meat of my case

Yes, it was a tangential point, and I was only responding to that. I don't know where you go the impression I was saying anything more than "I think Melty Blood is deeper than Melee." I was making no other arguments and not talking about Brawl at all.

 

[Eggm]

I feel a lot like pakman. Especially his point on, with less depth theres less things the worse characters can do to compete with the better ones. So IMO when brawl gets all leveled out playing a bunch and the top tiers are determined those characters are going to be even more broken than the top 5 in melee.

 

[Keitaro]

No, that post alone didn't cover it, but every preceding one did. Remember the like.. 7 pages of me listing specific reasons and explanations backing my points? They're still there, and no one has responded to them besides "Just you wait." And that's not enough to disprove me.

Well nothing you said covered it imo so I'm not disproven either. We basically solved nothing to each other.

I'm done here, *goes off to play Brawl*

 

[Emblem Lord]

RICHARD!!!!!!

Come to my house for Brawl plz?!

 

[Rain(ame)]

O.o wow....that was long, lol. I mean....Cell saga long. 'cuz Freiza was just gay long

 

[dmbrandon]

I nominate Scar for the head of the Anti-Brawl Committee. I then nominate myself to tell the whole committee to go play Melee, while we play our game.

I then nominate The Invisible as Worst Movie of the Year.

 

[RoyKid]

I nominate Scar for the head of the Anti-Brawl actually becoming competitive Committee.

*fixed for truthiness*

brawl = fun
but can never live up to the competitive nature of melee

/end as much of a legitimate argument as most "for brawl" arguments in here :/

anyways...what pakman said about the approach is pretty much how u can sum up a ton of how brawl is depleted of like 90% of mindgames etc...

there's just not a whole bunch u can do...whoever has the longer range move just kinda wins in the end when it comes down to a lot of it...

I mean if I'm coming up to someone and I'm like what to do?...i have like a couple options
(take for example ike)
jump and do some air move
turn around jump bair...or some nonsense
empty jump? (doesnt really work as well in brawl) do stuff....
roll away to camp more...yahh

I mean u can grab too and stuff sometimes...but most of the chars jabs or tilts etc. are fast enuf that its harder to grab in the first place

Idk if it's hard to face for some people or wateva but to sum this tl;dr up...

brawl can really never be 64 (except zero suit)...no hitstun watsoeva...
brawl can really never be melee...lack of ability to move/loss of approach tactics/loss of mindgames/loss of "legitimate" combos...wel u get the point
brawl just doesnt have the ability to...idk lol

/end stupid rant...

btw...as soon as people start/ed learning to airdodge (and not getting punished for it)...the game just becomes that much more pointless (as far as a competitive stance)

tl;dr? brawl is fun...etc (chocobombing)

 

[Ryan-K]

Yeah at first the game seems more balanced and it is to an extent until you realize projectiles are retardedly good in this game. It wouldn't be as bad if you could powershield projectiles but really that was the stupidest thing to take out ever.

Brawl is really fun until people start camping and then it's just super annoying to play so until **** starts happening I don't think tournies are for me in brawl, lol.

Also consider how long a brawl tourney would take, melee takes long enough lol.

 

[Ryan-K]

laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag

 

[CT Chia]

the approaching game rly is different. i normally use mindgames but u can come up with any move by shield cancelling. i normally trick my opponent into attacking while i go in for a SC grab

 

[JFox]

This thread should be stopped, or at least moved to an area that won't intrigue my curiousity to keep checking it...

 

[ShOcKoLaTe]

Lets just all blame sakurai for being an ***hole. I really don't know why he caters so much to the casuals because its not like the casuals wouldn't buy it if he left all the advanced tactics in. However now that he has left them out some of the competitive people won't even buy the game.

 

[Cheezit]

yes please as much as i love the brawl debates please the past 10 pages has been nothing but crap lol lets move to the brawl forums or gamefaqs LOl

 

[dmbrandon]

yes please as much as i love the brawl debates please the past 10 pages has been nothing but crap lol lets move to the brawl forums or gamefaqs LOl

dude brought gamefaqs into this. That's harsh as hell.