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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

Gates

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
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BISOOOON!!!!!! *Jams fist in the air*
Yes, yes, I killed your father. What is it with you Ganon mains anyway? I killed my father too and you don't see me whining about it.

But srsly.

@ Zigma - I did check the Dedede boards and we're pretty sure Dedede's moves do not refresh.

@ CO18 - That's a bit too far. It's certaintly not a total **** matchup (or it wouldn't be if it weren't for the walking cg) but 60:40 is giving Ganon a little too much credit. I think if the Ganon really knows what they're doing, it's 65:35 Dedede. If they don't, it's 70:30 Dedede.

To be honest, Dedede vs Ganon seems like it has the potential to be a really fun matchup. I personally think that if Ganon's jab were faster and his grab range were larger that he'd actually be mid tier material (like Ike level).
 

Coney

Smash Master
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@ CO18 - That's a bit too far. It's certaintly not a total **** matchup (or it wouldn't be if it weren't for the walking cg) but 60:40 is giving Ganon a little too much credit. I think if the Ganon really knows what they're doing, it's 65:35 Dedede. If they don't, it's 70:30 Dedede.
And if the DDD doesn't know what they're doing, I'd wager it's either 60:40 or maybe even 50:50. A lot of people, especially the high tiers, tend to overlook Ganon. If a DDD has never played against a Ganon before, you'll be able to tell. You may not win the match, but it'll be very, very close.
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
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Yeah, I guess that's true. I actually have a personal theory that if a low tier main goes up against a high tier main then the low tier main will have an inherent advantage since the high tier main probably won't know the matchup.
 

fromundaman

Henshin a go-go Baby!
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Gates, I completely agree with that theory!

Also, I know I've said this before, and it's not all that important, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

If D3 spams Waddle Dees, stomp them. For some reason, stomped Waddle Dees will either fly upwards or spin in place (which looks really funny). During this time, they are considered to be in throwing animation, and if D3 tries to throw another after 2 are out and have been stomped, he will go through the animation without actually throwing a Waddle Dee (which also looks really funny), essentially just giving himself a lot of lag for no reason.
 

hyperstation

Smash Lord
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Gates, I completely agree with that theory!

Also, I know I've said this before, and it's not all that important, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

If D3 spams Waddle Dees, stomp them. For some reason, stomped Waddle Dees will either fly upwards or spin in place (which looks really funny). During this time, they are considered to be in throwing animation, and if D3 tries to throw another after 2 are out and have been stomped, he will go through the animation without actually throwing a Waddle Dee (which also looks really funny), essentially just giving himself a lot of lag for no reason.
Just for the sake of argument, it should be noted that stomping waddledees will stale out your DAir and refresh other moves. Not necessarily a good or a bad thing, just something that you should be conscious of.

Also,

YES! YES!


10yes'
Ask and you shall receive.

YESZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWviVCni8Ho
 

@HomE

Smash Ace
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Gates, I completely agree with that theory!

Also, I know I've said this before, and it's not all that important, but I'll throw it out there anyway:

If D3 spams Waddle Dees, stomp them. For some reason, stomped Waddle Dees will either fly upwards or spin in place (which looks really funny). During this time, they are considered to be in throwing animation, and if D3 tries to throw another after 2 are out and have been stomped, he will go through the animation without actually throwing a Waddle Dee (which also looks really funny), essentially just giving himself a lot of lag for no reason.
BUT... I've recently been informed that attacking those Waddles will cause your stomp to become stale....


Sooooo, its got its pros and cons, Like Z1GMA mentioned earlier you can jab the waddles and refresh your other moves :)

EDIT: AHHHH DAD beat me by a couple minutes haha
 

fromundaman

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That's true.

The way I see it though, if you know about it and they don't, that extra lag alllows you to get a few moves in.
You're right though, there's both pros and cons. Just wanted to make sure people knew though.

EDIT: DAD, that video is YES!
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
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@ CO18 - That's a bit too far. It's certaintly not a total **** matchup (or it wouldn't be if it weren't for the walking cg) but 60:40 is giving Ganon a little too much credit. I think if the Ganon really knows what they're doing, it's 65:35 Dedede. If they don't, it's 70:30 Dedede.
I simply must call error on that abuse of matchup terminology. The numbers thing is only for the matchup at a high level. I'm not really sure what the numbers are supposed to mean if you're talking about "some arbitrary occasion of the matchup against most people."

If it's supposed to be short for your 'chances' or the matchup bias, be a little more explicit, for everyone's benefit.


And if the DDD doesn't know what they're doing, I'd wager it's either 60:40 or maybe even 50:50. A lot of people, especially the high tiers, tend to overlook Ganon. If a DDD has never played against a Ganon before, you'll be able to tell. You may not win the match, but it'll be very, very close.
Here too. But aside from the pointless assumption "if they don't know what they're doing" (if your opponent DKWTD, you win if you do), I must say,

players =/= characters. "A lot of people, especially the high tiers" ??! I can think of one bad interpretation, and one that makes you look bad. If you meant mainers of a high tier character, that's just... that's a very cruel generalization, and even misleading in the long run. You can't view your opponent as someone who's going to ignore your character, that's just unwarranted.
Any case of an opponent underestimating you should be viewed idiosyncratically, according to itself. Yes, if you're playing M2K, you should abuse your low tier status (it's going to be one of the few tools you have :dizzy: ). But in my local area, there are the newbies, the amateurs, who will take you at their own pace, and then there are the pros, who will **** you up anyway. I don't see how it's helpful to imagine the case as being otherwise as a rule, or in the abstract.


To comment on the matchup before two final diversions, this matchup is mysterious. Even while playing it, it feels like it's not so bad for Ganon (e.g. 60:40) - that is, until DDD grabs you again. Then you take another 30% and he's still pursuing.
So I'd advise caution on calling the final number. 65:35 is what's in my gut.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ3LxEAyhmU

In related news, I think I've perfected my mimicry of Falcon's side taunt. I just need to get the voice down. It's a rather nuanced exclamation, if you really try to do it.
(Oh don't worry; I learned Warlock Punch first.)
 

Z1GMA

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BUT... I've recently been informed that attacking those Waddles will cause your stomp to become stale....


Sooooo, its got its pros and cons, Like Z1GMA mentioned earlier you can jab the waddles and refresh your other moves :)

EDIT: AHHHH DAD beat me by a couple minutes haha
The sucktion of Utilt works good too, if you want to be at a little safer distance from D3.
(Not saying you shall flee from him so that he can continue the camping >_>)

Also, fully worn out Dtilt is KILLER against D3, for setting up juggle strings; even at high %'s.
So Dtilt may in fact be good to hit those 'dees with.
 

@HomE

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Well, Bananas > Ganon

I almost refuse to play Diddy, i dont really know anyone who does play him so I cant really comment on the match-up much, but i will say that its SOO terrible playing against a good diddy...
 

ShinGaruda

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I'm only saying this to make up for making the thread go off-topic.

Bananas. Can't flame choke. You can't resort to the air, because that's what's expected, and you can't really do much against Diddy in the air anyway.

So um... what the hell do we do? Can Ganondorf get gimped easily? How easily can he be KO'd?
 

talkingbeatles

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I'm only saying this to make up for making the thread go off-topic.

Bananas. Can't flame choke. You can't resort to the air, because that's what's expected, and you can't really do much against Diddy in the air anyway.

So um... what the hell do we do? Can Ganondorf get gimped easily? How easily can he be KO'd?
Diddy has a pretty wicked spike, but I don't know about staying out of the air. Does Ganon's Murder Choke take priority of Diddy's monkey hump? If so, then just jump to flame choke. Also, use Ganon's awesome range. Dtilts and ftilts to keep Diddy in his place. Make him come to you. If your good enough, you can catch those peanuts, I believe.
 

Squirrely

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I'm good enough to catch a peanut but that won't mean jack in the game.

I hate Diddy. Banana's are the biggest annoyance for me in the game. I'd rather get cg'd to death by IC's then trip over banana's for 5 minutes. I usually try to use banana's to help my bait game by standing behind one with a f-smash ready to floor Diddy as he comes cart-wheeling in or otherwise punishing him as he gos for bananas. This is assuming I haven't already tripped over one and am doomed to being swept across the stage in a ridiculous fashion. Speaking of which, avoid FD. That's the best place for Diddy.

It'll be rare for a good Diddy to be in range of Ganondorf and not have either a banana or a Ganondorf in his hands. Try lots of stomping, it has a handy side-effect of picking up bananas. Ganon has a glide toss, but in my experience, Diddy's will just shield the banana leaving them only vulnerable to Ganon's grab, which is almost always out of range. D-tilt is useful, although it tends to clank with everything Diddy thorwos out. F-tilt is just as useful.

Killing moves to watch out for from Diddy are f-smash (which can be DI'd out of fairly regularly), d-smash, and all aerials except n-air. Mostly pay attention to times when forward or down smash can come out since going against Ganon in the air is a risky proposition. Though d-smash likes to come out after a banana trip and there's not much you can do about it except not try not to get hit by bananas, which is an incredible feat in this match-up.

Diddy has good edge game. Only spike his side-b if you can get well above it, much like spiking Ganon's or Falcon's side-b. Tipmans and stomps are both effective, if the rocket barrels don't screw you. If he's recovering straight up, go for the instant ledge hog. They usually can't drift to the side enough to land on the stage. Otherwise stomp. You really don't want him back on stage throwing bananas.
Usual Ganon strategy to get back if you're knocked off. U-air him if he comes at you personally, dodge the charged peanuts and hard-thrown bananas. If he starts blooping peanuts or pulling out bananas so they go off the edge, up-b surf through them, or else you're screwed. Not sure what to do if he drops down to spike, maybe up-b early. I rarely see a Diddy come to spike since they tend to go for the gimp via ledgehogs and junk.

I feel like I've written a lot and said little.

In summary, Diddy will **** you if you get caught by a banana, otherwise Ganon can dominate. Ganon can win in the air if he ever gets Diddy up there. Diddy has a better edge game due to projectiles and instant hogging forcing Ganon to up-b onto stage primed for a Diddy ledgehop to f-air.

I get ***** by Banana's a ton though I'm told there are other Ganons who can deal with it much better.
Personally my least favorite match-up. Getting locked in bananas just takes away the fun.

30-70 :(
 

talkingbeatles

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If Ganon's bair takes priority over Diddy's forward charge, then you can approach him with your back and do short hops over the nanners. Don't do this the whole match of course. Just a bit to use know and then I guess.
 

PhatyCHONG

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Diddy vs Ganon
- Diddy has one the best combo agility in the game
- Ganon has one of the slowest combo agility in the game
- Diddy has two projectiles
- Ganon has zero projectiles
- Diddy is the 9th fastest character in the game
- Ganon is 34th fastest character in the game
- Diddy can camp Ganon
- Ganon can't camp Diddy
- Diddy has a better recovery
- Ganon has Ganocide
- Ganon has a long trip animation
- Ganon has one of the slowest moveset [laggy]
- Diddy has one of the fastest moveset
- Ganon large body make it easier for peanut camping and banana hitting
- Ganon slow and is considered 2nd easiest charcter to combo other than a low percentage D3
- Diddy boards rank Ganon 80-20 Diddy Favor
- Diddy > Ganon

IMO If I was a Ganon player diddy would be my worst nightmare other than MK

Advice for Ganon's
- Don't pick FD or SV you will regret it
- Ganoncide has worked on me so many times
- You have more ground reach
- You beat Diddy in the air
- You have most of priority
- Use his fastest moves
- D-tilt is a beast
- Good LUCK
 

:034:

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Ganondorf-Diddy is more close to 35:65. Ganondorf can get REALLY ***** if he's not used to the match-up, but good stage counterpicking can help you SO much. Norfair is your absolute best bet - the match-up goes down to a 40:60, maybe even 45:55 on this stage.

First of all, the mentality for the Diddy player is that he'll try to overwhelm you with banana's, then combo you off-stage into a spike. Good DI and reaction is necessary to survive. Above all:



Remember that you have the reach and power over Diddy in both the air and on the ground, use it in your favor.

Second, you can wizkick over banana's, you can use any aerial and that will also catch banana's. Ah yes, and short hop airdodge, that will also catch a banana. If you're good, you can catch their banana and hit them with a thunderstorm because they Glide Tossed into you...

Glide Tossing is also necessary to learn if you want to use banana's against Diddy Kong. This'll need some practice - but it's recommended. Another recommendation - edgeguard Diddy Kong. No, really, do it. It usually goes at a pretty predictable arc... Although I forgot what happened when you try to interrupt him with a reverse uair...

Ban Final Destination, you'll regret it otherwise.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Guys, should I give the opening page a new format? A format a lot easier to follow? I keep getting a lot of negative comments about the way it is now..
 

Z1GMA

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Guys, should I give the opening page a new format? A format a lot easier to follow? I keep getting a lot of negative comments about the way it is now..
I have no problem following it. It's all good imo.
But the top picture of Ganondorf looks really bad ;/
 

hyperstation

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The Diddy rating is not 20:80. 30:70 at worst. If you are having a hard time vs Diddy, then you don't know how to manage bananas. For one, Ganon has a great glide toss. If you don't know how to use this, it's easy: begin to roll in one direction then c-stick throw the banana in the direction you want the banana to be thrown. This way you can slide right or left while tossing left, up, right, or down. Very useful. Ganon's DA and DAir are great at picking up Bananas.

It's really easy to get edge hog kills against diddy when he's recovering from below. Just renew your invincibility frames and then roll onto the stage right as diddy explodes into the side of the ledge.

He's definitely got the advantage, but this is not a terrible match-up IMO.
 

stRIP

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Lulz. (omg, everybody which is reading this post: READ IT CAREFULLY: your eyes could explode becuz of bad englishz0rs)

I've brawled a lot with reaper and Luigi_Player (reaper is top3 in europe and Luigi_Player is one of the best players too) they are better than me, thats obvious.

So, if you are used to nanerz its not a thaaaaaaaat hard matchup. Glidetossing is the key, and together with nanerz, SideB is LULZ.

Counterpicking Norfair is very good. For starter stages, ban FD/Smashville, whatever you want.

You can gimp diddy, if hes recovering (like DAD <3 said.)

be a lot on the air, pick nanerz with Dair and DA.

(This post is nearly a copy from DAD's <3 post, lulz)

Its really one of the better matchups if you are used to it. I dont have any problems with Diddy anymore.

i would say 70:30 or 65:35
 

Teronist09

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If you think he's going to shield the nanner, glide toss it up and go towards him and get him when he puts down his shield. Make sure that some of the time when you pick up a nanner you're holding the A button down, that way if they're silly enough to try to get you to barrel cancel hold a down so you won't throw the nanner and fsmash him. Or if you want to use aerials and not throw it... SHAD is usually safer than dair to pick up naners in my experience.
Diddy's sidestep is a pretty easy punish, imo. If they're close enough when they do it they should usually eat dair unless you were in the middle of something laggy.
Norfair is def your friend. Among the advantages it gives you, I've had Diddys stagespike themselves recovering low to the middle platform.
Nanner gimps offstage could probably be annoying, but I've got no experience with it. And in theory they shouldn't be that hard to deal with onstage if you predict them but i couldnt say. I think the matchup might hinge on your ability to manage nanners onstage.

Also, Dair > Up-B, i've won several matches going down and spiking them out of recovery.

60-40 sounds right.

--------------
Kalm, who redid the matchup chart? My brother was confused because the numbers are backwards or something, he thought Ganon actually had a bunch of good matchups where he had no business having them.
 

smashkng

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I see Ganondorf worst match ups have all a projectile. His bad mobility mean that a projectile can make approaches impossible?
 

hyperstation

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I see Ganondorf worst match ups have all a projectile. His bad mobility mean that a projectile can make approaches impossible?
No. You just have to know how to approach through each type of projectile. Each projectile based character will require different approach options including:

powershielding
Shield walking
crouching
SHAD
BDC
DAir (bananas)
NAir
Spot dodge
Wiz Kick to cancel projectile
DTilt to cancel projectile
Jab to cancel projectile

Swoops guide covers most of this.
 

Ray_Kalm

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I have no problem following it. It's all good imo.
But the top picture of Ganondorf looks really bad ;/
I don't know.. I think I should make reading, and understanding it, a bit more easier. This is " the" Ganon match-up thread after all.
 

hyperstation

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Kalm,

I could help you out a bit in terms of formatting. I mean, you have So much good information, but it all is a little homogeneous. Perhaps I could do a sample post of what it might look like and you could copy the format?
 

Ray_Kalm

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Kalm,

I could help you out a bit in terms of formatting. I mean, you have So much good information, but it all is a little homogeneous. Perhaps I could do a sample post of what it might look like and you could copy the format?
Yeah, sure. That wouldn't hurt. Though, I'm thinking the format should look something like how the Diddy boards have it done. Simple, neat, readable, organized, and whatnot.
 

hyperstation

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Aye, the Diddy boards have a pretty nice set up.

The first thing I'd recommend is changing or resizing the Zelda photo. It's too wide, so it's stretching the whole post out quite a bit. A really wide column of text is harder to to deal with visually than a narrower one.

Not to shamelessly self promote, but take a look at the DAD's Smash Lab OP. I thought a lot about how to organize a lot of information with the tools we're given in this forum. I came to the conclusion (as did the Diddy boards, it seems) that bulleted lists and indents work very well to break up large blocks of text into more manageable bites.

Also, I'd say you don't need BOTH the match-up chart and the images with the match-up ratios. It seems redundant.

A few examples below. Granted, I didn't do a whole lot. I just indented/listed some things, scaled up some of the header text, and applied bold/italics/underline in places I felt would work well. I'm not even sure that each section needs to be in a separate color. You could just do something like...in the section on Link, all the section headers appear in GREEN. In the Sonic section, all headers appear in BLUE. You get the idea. Obviously you'd run out of colors eventually, but repeats are okay. Anyway, there's a lot more you could do, but I just thought I'd give you a jumping point.

POSTING GUIDELINES

Match-Up Ratio
Explanation, and at least a basic discussion of possible strategies.​
Gerudo Effectiveness
Explanation on how much gerudo and its follow ups benefit Ganondorf in the match-up.​
The Stage(s)
The stage counter picks.​
Approach/Defense Options
Explanation on how Ganondorf should approach, or if he should at all, along with how he should play defensively.​
.
.
.
.
.
Video(s)
Link to one or more videos of the match-up.​





LINK


The Hero of Time, and our arch rival. We opposed you as the hero, Link.

Link was confirmed for S.B.B.B at E3 2006. His graphics have been completely revamped from his S.S.B.M form, since his new look is derived from the game, T.L.O.Z.T.O.T.P. He currently ranks 36th on the tier list due to his slow attacks, abysmal recovery, and poor match ups. His special moves have also been changed to fit the style of Twilight Princess.

Match-Up Ratio

35 - 65 in Link's favor.​


Gerudo Effectiveness

Moderate

Possible Gerudo follow ups
  • Gerudo > Jab
  • Gerudo > Forward Tilt (on Get-Up Attack only)
  • Gerudo > Down Tilt (on Get-Up Attack only)
Gerudo>jab is pretty good at the edges for follow up edge guarding. We also have gerudo to dash attack on Link, if he decides to get up with an attack, just keep this in mind.

Link's roll aren't to fast, so following up with another gerudo would be a pretty good choice. Watch out for his get up attack though, it's quite fast and covers a good amount of space.​


The Stage(s)

Chose Battlefield

Platforms makes it easier for us to hit Link with Uair, Bair, Fair, (and even Dair !), USmash. As a Link main, I know how much trouble Link has on platforms. Slow rolls, not much options then fast falling to Z-air.

Up B is a good Out of Shield option, since you can recover from the lag quickly, thanks to the top platform.
+ Since this stage is small, and due to the platforms, projectiles games / camp are easier to deal with.
+ Techchase on platforms are easier. That could benefit to Gerudo follows-up.
+ Overall, attacks are easier to land than on a flat / big stage like FD. (Aerials, Wizkicks, Gerudo).


Approach/Defense Options

Hard to do

F-tilt is a nasty mother against Link due to his similarly bad recovery. Yes, he can tether grab the ledge during the knock back, but that's certainly not fool proof.

When Link is off the stage he should automatically lose a stock because Links recovery is the only one in brawl that actually gimps yourself for you. Its like its screaming...thunder stomp meh thunderstorm meh...

Seriously though when he is off the edge watch the boomerang. and just do a tip man or dair...Learn how to DI because a skilled Link can combo Ganon to hellz and back.

Link isn't exactly a light wispy guy either. Most of his attacks do have lag, making it much easier to punish him. Which again, makes it easier to send him off the edge, and easier to KO him.​


Building Up Damage

Moderate

Stomping (thunder storming) is one of our only options against Link, most of our approach get's out prioritize.

Gerudo > Jab does 16%. Dash Attacking back and forth actually works against Link, he'll most likely start using his projectiles, which have some start-up lag, at further - mid range, and that's when we could Dash attack.


Dealing with Projectiles

Moderate

Link's projectiles are about the least threatening thing in the game. Arrows are slow, have to be charged if you want to cover the distance too. Gale Boomerang means crap up close and bombs can be caught. Links projectiles may stall Ganondorf, but they will certainly not completely stop him. Z-air could be a pain though.

Link's Arrows and Boomerang

DA overrides the Gale Boomerang, and Jab stops it. Yeah. Arrows can be stopped by jabbing, but honestly? Power shielding is a lot easier to do. Not sure about DA beating arrows./QUOTE]
Aerial Options

Amazing

I'm pretty sure Link's horizontal recovery is a little better than Ganondorf's, but I'd say Ganon's is better based on the fact that his two recovery moves can mess with edge guarders/hoggers (Ganoncide, being shocked or punched into the stage, etc). I'm not saying this necessarily makes up for Ganon's bad recovery, but at least it gives people something to think about when they approach a recovering Ganon. Link's is just asking for a thunder stomp.

Ganon's Aerial game could seriously mess up Link, send him off stage for a spike/gimp.​


Stomp

Decent

Stomping a Link is very effective, easy damage and sets a few possible 'combos'. One of which is the bouncing Combo.

Stomp on a Link after a gerudo to avoid his get up attack.​

Link's Jab Lock


Link could easily put Ganondorf in a Jab lock, so be careful and don't lie on the ground. Link's 1st strike of his 3 hit jab combo has more range then you think. He could set it up after using his Gale Boomerang.

Ways to avoid this would be simply not to fall on the ground lying, smash any button to do a kinda hand flip which avoids falling.​


Videos


Here's the code for the above:

HTML:
[CENTER][SIZE="7"][U][B][I][COLOR="Green"]LINK[/COLOR][/I][/B][/U][/SIZE]

[IMG]http://i34.tinypic.com/mmx5e9.jpg[/IMG][/CENTER]

[INDENT][I][COLOR="Green"]The Hero of Time, and our arch rival. We opposed you as the hero, Link.

Link was confirmed for S.B.B.B at E3 2006. His graphics have been completely revamped from his S.S.B.M form, since his new look is derived from the game, T.L.O.Z.T.O.T.P. He currently ranks 36th on the tier list due to his slow attacks, abysmal recovery, and poor match ups. His special moves have also been changed to fit the style of Twilight Princess.[/COLOR][/I][/INDENT]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Orange"][B][I]Match-Up Ratio[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][B][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]35[/COLOR] - [COLOR="Green"]65[/COLOR][/B] in Link's favor.[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"][B][I]Gerudo Effectiveness[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="Yellow"][B]Moderate[/B][/COLOR]

[U]Possible Gerudo follow ups[/U]
[LIST]
[*]Gerudo > Jab
[*]Gerudo > Forward Tilt (on Get-Up Attack only)
[*]Gerudo > Down Tilt (on Get-Up Attack only)
[/LIST]
[INDENT]Gerudo>jab is pretty good at the edges for follow up edge guarding. We also have gerudo to dash attack on Link, if he decides to get up with an attack, just keep this in mind.

Link's roll aren't to fast, so following up with another gerudo would be a pretty good choice. Watch out for his get up attack though, it's quite fast and covers a good amount of space.[/INDENT][/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="MediumTurquoise"][B][I]The Stage(s)[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT]Chose [B]Battlefield[/B]

Platforms makes it easier for us to hit Link with Uair, Bair, Fair, (and even Dair !), USmash. As a Link main, I know how much trouble Link has on platforms. Slow rolls, not much options then fast falling to Z-air.

[QUOTE]Up B is a good Out of Shield option, since you can recover from the lag quickly, thanks to the top platform.
+ Since this stage is small, and due to the platforms, projectiles games / camp are easier to deal with.
+ Techchase on platforms are easier. That could benefit to Gerudo follows-up.
+ Overall, attacks are easier to land than on a flat / big stage like FD. (Aerials, Wizkicks, Gerudo).[/QUOTE][/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="PaleGreen"][B][I]Approach/Defense Options[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="Orange"][B]Hard to do[/B][/COLOR]

F-tilt is a nasty mother against Link due to his similarly bad recovery. Yes, he can tether grab the ledge during the knock back, but that's certainly not fool proof.

When Link is off the stage he should automatically lose a stock because Links recovery is the only one in brawl that actually gimps yourself for you. Its like its screaming...thunder stomp meh thunderstorm meh...

Seriously though when he is off the edge watch the boomerang. and just do a tip man or dair...Learn how to DI because a skilled Link can combo Ganon to hellz and back.

Link isn't exactly a light wispy guy either. Most of his attacks do have lag, making it much easier to punish him. Which again, makes it easier to send him off the edge, and easier to KO him.[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Wheat"][B][I]Building Up Damage[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="Yellow"][B]Moderate[/B][/COLOR]

Stomping (thunder storming) is one of our only options against Link, most of our approach get's out prioritize.

Gerudo > Jab does 16%. Dash Attacking back and forth actually works against Link, he'll most likely start using his projectiles, which have some start-up lag, at further - mid range, and that's when we could Dash attack.
[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Magenta"][B][I]Dealing with Projectiles[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="Yellow"][B]Moderate[/B][/COLOR]

Link's projectiles are about the least threatening thing in the game. Arrows are slow, have to be charged if you want to cover the distance too. Gale Boomerang means crap up close and bombs can be caught. Links projectiles may stall Ganondorf, but they will certainly not completely stop him. Z-air could be a pain though.

[QUOTE]Link's Arrows and Boomerang

DA overrides the Gale Boomerang, and Jab stops it. Yeah. Arrows can be stopped by jabbing, but honestly? Power shielding is a lot easier to do. Not sure about DA beating arrows./QUOTE]
[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="YellowGreen"][B][I]Aerial Options[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="Lime"][B]Amazing[/B][/COLOR]

I'm pretty sure Link's horizontal recovery is a little better than Ganondorf's, but I'd say Ganon's is better based on the fact that his two recovery moves can mess with edge guarders/hoggers (Ganoncide, being shocked or punched into the stage, etc). I'm not saying this necessarily makes up for Ganon's bad recovery, but at least it gives people something to think about when they approach a recovering Ganon. Link's is just asking for a thunder stomp.

Ganon's Aerial game could seriously mess up Link, send him off stage for a spike/gimp.[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Cyan"][B][I]Stomp[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT][COLOR="PaleGreen"][B]Decent[/B][/COLOR]

Stomping a Link is very effective, easy damage and sets a few possible 'combos'. One of which is the bouncing Combo.

Stomp on a Link after a gerudo to avoid his get up attack.[/INDENT]
[SIZE="4"]
[COLOR="Green"][B][I]Link's Jab Lock[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[INDENT]Link could easily put Ganondorf in a Jab lock, so be careful and don't lie on the ground. Link's 1st strike of his 3 hit jab combo has more range then you think. He could set it up after using his Gale Boomerang.

Ways to avoid this would be simply not to fall on the ground lying, smash any button to do a kinda hand flip which avoids falling.[/INDENT]


[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Pink"][B][I]Videos[/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[LIST]
[*][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fL3Ki6ZErM[/url]
[*][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJfAEhhNONE[/url]
[*][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UF9VfFxBHA[/url]
[/LIST]
 

Z1GMA

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
5,523
Location
Sweden
- I really like the "Diddy's advantages / opponents advantages" in the Diddy-thead.
I'd be cool to do the same with Ganonblarf.
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
Match-Up Ratio
I'm not one for listing specific numbers, so I wont do that. >_>
But I'd just say the match up is in Toon Lin;'s favor (not by a ridiculously huge amount though).
Gerudo Effectiveness
Dtilt after it is good for damage.
Ftilt follow-up is too good. It gets kills early. @_@

The Stage(s)
:ganondorf:Ganondorf
Counter- Delfino Plaza, Battlefield, Norfair
Ban- Rainbow Cruise, Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Approach/Defense Options
If Ganondorf is approaching (which he usually should be in this match up) , idk. Use whatever you have that has a little range and not too much lag. >_>

If TL is goign to approach, try Ftilt OoS against his Zair and Nair? I think that would work well. But it won't really work if the TL spaces the Zair well.

Aerial Options
I would say TL's aerials are better overall, but Ganon's are a lot better for killing.

Building up Damage
Keep close to TL and don't let him space. Punish his arrow cancels if they're too close and **** him if he misses a grabs.

Dealing with projectiles
Stay really close the whole match.

Stomp
Not sure. >____>

Edge Guarding
Uair. =)

A Special Technique
Arrow cancels everywhere. Just watch out for them.

Video(s)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbzw43x0VbM&feature=channel_page
(no, jk. I don't have one.)



The Ranking Method Thing

Hard to do I guess. @_@






.... You're probably just better off asking me questions. <_<
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
Location
RPV, California
NNID
A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Vs Toon Link...you'll only win if you know how to powershield his projectiles consistently. He's bearable as long as you don't do too many stupid things against his projectile game. Otherwise he's really really a pain to deal with and if you can't deal with his projectiles, you will be too slow and predictable to do anything against him. Decent disjointed range + a rangey shieldgrab + pretty fast = not easy to deal with. Just be glad he sucks at KOs and recovery. =/

I don't think I can give an accurate matchup ratio...the matchup seems to vary greatly depending on player experience in this specific matchup.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Vs Toon Link...you'll only win if you know how to powershield his projectiles consistently. He's bearable as long as you don't do too many stupid things against his projectile game. Otherwise he's really really a pain to deal with and if you can't deal with his projectiles, you will be too slow and predictable to do anything against him. Decent disjointed range + a rangey shieldgrab + pretty fast = not easy to deal with. Just be glad he sucks at KOs and recovery. =/

I don't think I can give an accurate matchup ratio...the matchup seems to vary greatly depending on player experience in this specific matchup.
I agree with everything except the recovery part bit? Why is T.Links recovery supposed to be bad?
 
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