The Transition: New Mechanics, Re-works, Balance Changes Thread

Ophilia

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Nah, the top players who actually had 1 on 1 time with Nintendo reps corroborate the bug claim. Besides, outside of Nintendo there are companies that ship games with bugs that straight up crash the game so I'm not surprised a demo half a year from release has something like that.
I definitely need receipts on that. Frankly it’s upsetting if it’s truly to be removed. It’s a great mechanic. The competitive players are great, yes, but not everything they say is for the good of the game. Part of it is what they specifically want or don’t want, and use their influence.
 

William5000000

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Seriously?! No mention of the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle being added?! I would hate the Stage Hazards toggle to be added and not the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle!

*sigh* I truly fear that top KO randomness (upper Blast KOs) will not be eliminated when the game is finished. I truly fear for "Smash Ultimate".

The tripping randomness was in "Smash Brawl". The top KO randomness was in "Smash 4". And now...due to people seemingly not noticing the same issue that was in "Smash 4", I truly fear that "Smash Ultimate" will be another "Smash" game I will have to willingly skip because of the same top KO randomness. And I REALLY don't like those random elements when playing competitively. And if "Smash Ultimate" is the final game in the series with that random element from "Smash 4", it'll be a disappointing end for me.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Seriously?! No mention of the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle being added?! I would hate the Stage Hazards toggle to be added and not the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle!

*sigh* I truly fear that top KO randomness (upper Blast KOs) will not be eliminated when the game is finished. I truly fear for "Smash Ultimate".

The tripping randomness was in "Smash Brawl". The top KO randomness was in "Smash 4". And now...due to people seemingly not noticing the same issue in "Smash 4", I truly fear that "Smash Ultimate" will be another "Smash" game I will have to willingly skip because of the same top KO randomness. And I REALLY don't like those random elements when playing competitively. And if "Smash Ultimate" is the final game in the series with that random element from "Smash 4", it'll be a disappointing end for me.
What exactly do you mean? Unless you're playing with items on and a Bob-omb slides into your dms, I can't see how a Star/Screen KO can screw anyone out of a victory
 

Galgatha

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Seriously?! No mention of the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle being added?! I would hate the Stage Hazards toggle to be added and not the Star KOs/Screen KOs toggle!

*sigh* I truly fear that top KO randomness (upper Blast KOs) will not be eliminated when the game is finished. I truly fear for "Smash Ultimate".

The tripping randomness was in "Smash Brawl". The top KO randomness was in "Smash 4". And now...due to people seemingly not noticing the same issue that was in "Smash 4", I truly fear that "Smash Ultimate" will be another "Smash" game I will have to willingly skip because of the same top KO randomness. And I REALLY don't like those random elements when playing competitively. And if "Smash Ultimate" is the final game in the series with that random element from "Smash 4", it'll be a disappointing end for me.

You "fear" for a video game.....? Unless you play Puff, I don't see the big issue with the upper blast zone and whether it is a star/screen KO or a normal KO.
 

William5000000

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You "fear" for a video game.....? Unless you play Puff, I don't see the big issue with the upper blast zone and whether it is a star/screen KO or a normal KO.
Here's a video of an unlucky Screen KO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMTR-mHfcoo

That can happen at anytime. And people have lost to that too many times. Too many. I've seen comments like that on one of the Keef Crew's videos.

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMIMSRsxfSE

Read more about it here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...en-kos-toggle-wishlist-and-jigglypuff.455519/
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Galgatha

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Here's a video of an unlucky Screen KO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMTR-mHfcoo

That can happen at anytime. And people have lost to that too many times. Too many. I've seen comments like that on one of the Keef Crew's videos.

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMIMSRsxfSE

Read more about it here:
https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...en-kos-toggle-wishlist-and-jigglypuff.455519/
So easy fix, just have the game play the animation of the screen/star KO, yet classify them as a lost stock before the animation starts so it wont happen. There is no need for a toggle, or fear, but a small change when the game registers the player as dead.
 

William5000000

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So easy fix, just have the game play the animation of the screen/star KO, yet classify them as a lost stock before the animation starts so it wont happen. There is no need for a toggle, or fear, but a small change when the game registers the player as dead.
I don't know if that's possible. Someone tried to do that mod for "Smash 4", and it ended up being unfeasible.
 

Galgatha

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I don't know if that's possible. Someone tried to do that mod for "Smash 4", and it ended up being unfeasible.
Right, but there could be reason for that somewhere else inside the game code that it would essentially break. Ultimate on the other hand is built from the ground up, so it currently isn't too late to implement I would imagine, given that there is still 5 months left until release.
 

Metal B

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So easy fix, just have the game play the animation of the screen/star KO, yet classify them as a lost stock before the animation starts so it wont happen. There is no need for a toggle, or fear, but a small change when the game registers the player as dead.
Even better would be, that Star KOs only happen, when people get launched from a standing position or some moves will always trigger a Star KO (like Jigglypuff's Rest).

Actually isn't there a feature that removes those kinds of KOs when there's only 1 minute left in 4?
This only happens in Time-Matches.
 
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Galgatha

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Even better would be, that Star KOs only happen, when people get launched from a standing position or some moves will always trigger a Star KO (like Jigglypuff's Rest).
I agree on the Rest part, such a high risk move like Rest should be given not only the reward of taking a stock (if landed of course) and having the time to wake up.
 

Octorockandroll

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Eh... I mean yeah it can happen but it doesn't look like a huge deal imo so it likely will get ignored.
My phone wont load that video for whatever reason, but I will say that I know non-star/screen KOs can randomly make Puff's rest (her best tool) unsafe on kill. I understand the salt, I mean it's not like that character needs any more weaknesses.
 

Cutie Gwen

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My phone wont load that video for whatever reason, but I will say that I know non-star/screen KOs can randomly make Puff's rest (her best tool) unsafe on kill. I understand the salt, I mean it's not like that character needs any more weaknesses.
The video was of Little Mac going off stage and getting a kill but hitting the bottom of the screen before the Star KO counted and thus lost the match.


Also I didn't get an answer so I'll ask again, where does it say Roy has an English voice and where does it say Daisy has a Wedding alt? Awesomeperson159 Awesomeperson159 you listed those on the OP but I can't find anything of the like
 

William5000000

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I agree on the Rest part, such a high risk move like Rest should be given not only the reward of taking a stock (if landed of course) and having the time to wake up.
I actually wish Rest's behavior from "Smash 64" and "Smash Melee" would return. It doesn't have to be exactly like those two games, but I at least want the knockback to be similar to those two games. The vertical knockback from "Smash Brawl" and "Smash 4" is bad in my opinion.

In any case, if that instant stock-taken idea (Star KOs/Screen KOs only) is somehow implemented in "Smash Ultimate", I'll gladly accept it, even if it's not perfect. In fact, I'll gladly use any mod (or any GameShark/Game Genie code) that makes top KOs only Star KOs/Screen KOs occurring. Usually, I'm against these, but I'll gladly make an exception. I just want consistency for the top KOs.

I have tried to look past the top KO randomness in "Smash 4" over the years, but I'm so annoyed by the randomness that it's literally become unenjoyable for me now. :( So I'm honestly hoping "Smash Ultimate" will change that and will truly be the ultimate "Smash" game. No random elements (tripping from "Smash Brawl" and top KO RNG from "Smash 4"), all consistency. And if things actually go right for competitiveness...in my view, the order would be "Smash 64", then "Smash Melee", then "Smash Ultimate", from beginning to end ("Smash Brawl" and "Smash 4" don't exist to me; no offense to the others).
 
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Octorockandroll

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I actually wish Rest's behavior from "Smash 64" and "Smash Melee" would return. It doesn't have to be exactly like those two games, but I at least want the knockback to be similar to those two games. The vertical knockback from "Smash Brawl" and "Smash 4" is bad in my opinion.

In any case, if that instant stock-taken idea (Star KOs/Screen KOs only) is somehow implemented in "Smash Ultimate", I'll gladly accept it, even if it's not perfect. In fact, I'll gladly use any mod (or any GameShark/Game Genie code) that makes top KOs only Star KOs/Screen KOs occurring. Usually, I'm against these, but I'll gladly make an exception. I just want consistency for the top KOs.

I have tried to look past the top KO randomness in "Smash 4" over the years, but I'm so annoyed by the randomness that it's literally become unenjoyable for me now. :( So I'm honestly hoping "Smash Ultimate" will change that and will truly be the ultimate "Smash" game. No random elements (tripping from "Smash Brawl" and top KO RNG from "Smash 4"), all consistency. And if things actually go right for competitiveness...in my view, the order would be "Smash 64", then "Smash Melee", then "Smash Ultimate", from beginning to end ("Smash Brawl" and "Smash 4" don't exist to me; no offense to the others).
I agree. Its like there have been constant efforts just to undermine Puff's viability since Melee and it sucks.
 

Rhus

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Okay, so have we talked about people not being able to run through each other anymore? A lot of people are clamoring this is a bug

But we’re less than 6 months from release....I can see a bug of this stature being in maybe a year into development, but not 3. That’s just me I guess.

It seems more like any other fighter, traditional or not, you simply can’t run through an other character model. The physics behind that don’t make sense. So it seems to be removed, to favor competition.
This makes stage control even more important. If your back is to ledge, and they shield, you can’t slip past them anymore. You have to actually take a *risk* and jump.

With how the game is moving more towards punishing and competitive balance, that seems like something, to me, he liked addressed. In fact, the game would have to have new code for the characters stage collision boxes to detect other characters “WALL B”

Anybody feel me?
So first things first - this demo is not 6 months from release. The demo would have been prepared from an earlier iteration. As it is a demo, if it's not a gamebreaking bug they could very well have kept it in to avoid the "fix" causing further issues (as programming is prone to). The demo was likely prepared much earlier this year for E3.

Second of all, I am mixed on this prospect. On one hand, I understand that cross ups inflate the problem with fast characters always being stronger, but what about attacks that are supposed to cross up? Should Sonic be able to spin dash through people still? Fox and Falco Illusion/Phantasm? Pikachu's Quick Attack? The other thing to consider here is that if a character model is treated like a wall, characters like Pichu and Olimar would struggle to even move past characters with a larger frame, as they could barely jump over them.

While I understand the sentiment, I think it's a bad mechanic overall. I think there are better ways to solve this problem than to neuter a mix-up option.
 

Erimir

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I'm not sure why it's being inferred that an inability to run through a shielding character would mean you have to jump over them. Is there any reason to think you wouldn't be able to roll behind them?
 

Octorockandroll

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I'm not sure why it's being inferred that an inability to run through a shielding character would mean you have to jump over them. Is there any reason to think you wouldn't be able to roll behind them?
Pretty sure we mean to get past the shield without being punished.
 

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I noticed a couple character details that weren't on the list yet.

Corrin :ultcorrin:
Jab animation is new


Villager :ultvillager:
Net (grab) now also pockets items and projectiles
(verified by SmashWiki + shown in character trailer)
 
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Ophilia

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So first things first - this demo is not 6 months from release. The demo would have been prepared from an earlier iteration. As it is a demo, if it's not a gamebreaking bug they could very well have kept it in to avoid the "fix" causing further issues (as programming is prone to). The demo was likely prepared much earlier this year for E3.

Second of all, I am mixed on this prospect. On one hand, I understand that cross ups inflate the problem with fast characters always being stronger, but what about attacks that are supposed to cross up? Should Sonic be able to spin dash through people still? Fox and Falco Illusion/Phantasm? Pikachu's Quick Attack? The other thing to consider here is that if a character model is treated like a wall, characters like Pichu and Olimar would struggle to even move past characters with a larger frame, as they could barely jump over them.

While I understand the sentiment, I think it's a bad mechanic overall. I think there are better ways to solve this problem than to neuter a mix-up option.

Whoa dude. Thank you for explaining it your way. You really helped me understand why it could be bad.
 

Rhus

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Whoa dude. Thank you for explaining it your way. You really helped me understand why it could be bad.
I might be missing something - I'll straight up admit as a long-time Fox main seeing Fox's illusion stop when it hits shield makes me cry so I have some bias there haha.

I would primarily be concerned about how the models of characters are handled in the engine. For instance, this new mechanic cuts off the option of running through characters (shielding or not) and forces you to escape with less options. I believe your escape options when cornered on the stage would then be:
  • Roll behind them
  • Land a hit on them to re-establish stage control
  • Jump over their shield to open up the stage for movement
This seems okay, but when character models are treated as a physical wall, option 3 is really hard to do safely, especially for characters with below average jump height and/or air speed (assuming that they have to clear the character's entire model due to this mechanic). Rolling behind is also very dangerous. That leaves the only "reliable" option to land a hit. But, say for example you are Kirby vs Marth and Marth has you cornered on the stage. Kirby has to make it through all of Marth's spacing options to land a hit, rolling is more dangerous than ever, and Kirby doesn't have the initial jump height or air speed to make it over Marth's tall frame without getting Utilted etc.

That's not to say Kirby would routinely take the "run through opponent" option, but I just feel it makes it unnecessarily more difficult for certain characters.
 

Metal B

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I might be missing something - I'll straight up admit as a long-time Fox main seeing Fox's illusion stop when it hits shield makes me cry so I have some bias there haha.

I would primarily be concerned about how the models of characters are handled in the engine. For instance, this new mechanic cuts off the option of running through characters (shielding or not) and forces you to escape with less options. I believe your escape options when cornered on the stage would then be:
  • Roll behind them
  • Land a hit on them to re-establish stage control
  • Jump over their shield to open up the stage for movement
This seems okay, but when character models are treated as a physical wall, option 3 is really hard to do safely, especially for characters with below average jump height and/or air speed (assuming that they have to clear the character's entire model due to this mechanic). Rolling behind is also very dangerous. That leaves the only "reliable" option to land a hit. But, say for example you are Kirby vs Marth and Marth has you cornered on the stage. Kirby has to make it through all of Marth's spacing options to land a hit, rolling is more dangerous than ever, and Kirby doesn't have the initial jump height or air speed to make it over Marth's tall frame without getting Utilted etc.

That's not to say Kirby would routinely take the "run through opponent" option, but I just feel it makes it unnecessarily more difficult for certain characters.
But is it really bad or just different?
Smaller characters already are harder to hit for bigger characters, so this would kind of balance it out. If we look at smaller characters in detail, everybody has options to escape the situation.
  • Kirby has a command grab, multiple jumps and can duck very low.
  • Olimar has a long range grab and attacks
  • Pichu has Agility
  • Young Link has a sword, bombs and a long range grab.
  • Squirtle has Water Gun and can swap to a different character
It would increase the pressure and make cornering a stronger element of Smash, which is already a game about stage-control. Also it would be buff for big and slow characters, since others can't easily escape them. So this could be interesting.
But i would change, that characters laying the floor don't count and can be passed through.
 
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Galgatha

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I think we are making a mistake here. I have seen footage of not being able to walk through SHIELDING opponents, but I haven't seen any footage of not being able to walk/run through non-shielding opponents.

The sheilding thing for of makes sense, though I do hope Falco's Phantasm can still go through shield, but it wouldn't make sense (given how this game has always been played) for them to implement this on non-sheilding characters as well.
 
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I think we are making a mistake here. I have seen footage of not being able to walk through SHIELDING opponents, but I haven't seen any footage of not being able to walk/run through non-shielding opponents.

The sheilding thing for of makes sense, though I do hope Falco's Phantasm can still go through shield, but it wouldn't make sense (given how this game has always been played) for them to implement this on non-sheilding characters as well.
Edit: Ignore me, I misread.
 
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Zinith

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Yoshi (shockng, I know):

Egg Roll no longer forces Yoshi to bounce on startup

Also I was being cautious about Down B having Armor, but now I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Yoshi's Ground Pound has Armor.

Unless they decide to remove it in the final game
 
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SSBBDaisy

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Glide Tossing is back and I really hope it stays.

Daisy's forward air has lower ladning lag than smash 4 peach's forward air

Peach's jab looks like her brawl jab but I know it's different from Smash 4 Jab.

Rosalina has a new nair and her forward air now auto cancel's from a short hop

Luma's up air hitbox looks visually smaller

I have yet to see the racket or the frying pan from peach/daisy. In fact during when sakurai show A + B smash Peach does 2 golf club fsmashes in a row.

Peach's Dtilt is a leg sweep instead of her swiping the ground from the other games

Olimar's Grab/Pummel now uses all pikmin available to him
 
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Glide Tossing is back and I really hope it stays.

Daisy's forward air has lower ladning lag than smash 4 peach's forward air

Peach's jab looks like her brawl jab but I know it's different from Smash 4 Jab.

Rosalina has a new nair and her forward air now auto cancel's from a short hop

Luma's up air hitbox looks visually smaller

I have yet to see the racket or the frying pan from peach/daisy. In fact during when sakurai show A + B smash Peach does 2 golf club fsmashes in a row.

Peach's Dtilt is a leg sweep instead of her swiping the ground from the other games

Olimar's Grab/Pummel now uses all pikmin available to him
Does this mean you can deal more pummel damage by just having a white pikmin in your line instead of at the front like in sm4sh?
 

Rhus

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So that means grabs don't have special qualities depending on the Pikmin you use anymore.
Not necessarily. The lead pikmin can still decide the throw's properties, but the damage and/or knockback can add additional scaling based on number of Pikmin.

So a Blue lead 3-pikmin Bthrow would be his strongest kill throw for example.
 

Lotakaz

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In the trailer showing off the new mechanics it shows Zelda doing 28.5% in a 1 v 1 and 23.7% in a 3-man. That's ~17% increase in damage. I'm wondering if shields are buffed in 1 v 1 to compensate for the damage increase. I'm hoping not, since I'd like for defense to be weaker in general, but if anyone can somehow confirm shields don't take more damage in 1 v 1 that would be very appreciated.
 

Awesomeperson159

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Back, went on vacation for a few days.
Also I didn't get an answer so I'll ask again, where does it say Roy has an English voice and where does it say Daisy has a Wedding alt? Awesomeperson159 Awesomeperson159 you listed those on the OP but I can't find anything of the like
For the first one: Marth is voiced in english, so why would they not voice Roy in English? It would be incredibly stupid for Nintendo to say, "We don't want Marth to be voiced in Japanese in English countries so he can be understood better" (or whatever there reasoning is) and then not have Roy be voiced in English.

However, I think I just saw Daisy's white dress alt and thought it was a wedding dress. I'll change that.
In the trailer showing off the new mechanics it shows Zelda doing 28.5% in a 1 v 1 and 23.7% in a 3-man. That's ~17% increase in damage. I'm wondering if shields are buffed in 1 v 1 to compensate for the damage increase. I'm hoping not, since I'd like for defense to be weaker in general, but if anyone can somehow confirm shields don't take more damage in 1 v 1 that would be very appreciated.
Probably not, because unless they increased bonus shield damage too, that would decrease the utility of moves like Shield Breaker.
 
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