Pre-Release The Transition: New Mechanics, Re-works, Balance Changes Thread

[Awesomeperson159]

Airdoding cannot just be used once before landing. If you get hit you can airdodge again. (Unless this doesn't apply to directional airdodges)

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableSparklingKangarooPhilosoraptor

Oops, I made this on June 12th and must not have updated that section. Oh well!

 

[Iridium]

As you can see, it appears Pikachu can now act of Skull Bash very quickly when he hits something. Pretty cool, I guess. He even bounces up a bit after getting a hit.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

As you can see, it appears Pikachu can now immediately act of Skull Bash when he hits something. Pretty cool, I guess.

Hey, it looks to be safe on shield when slightly charged.

It might have another use on stage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

As you can see, it appears Pikachu can now immediately act of Skull Bash when he hits something. Pretty cool, I guess.

Not "immediate", there's still a forced lag state when you bounce off of somebody. The lowest I've counted thus far is 21 frames. From 44 frames in Smash 4 so it's a significant difference. Even more helpful is his bouncing slightly up and off the target rather than dropping like a rock in front of them like in Smash 4.

 

[Iridium]

Not "immediate", there's still a forced lag state when you bounce off of somebody. The lowest I've counted thus far is 21 frames. From 44 frames in Smash 4 so it's a significant difference. Even more helpful is his bouncing slightly up and off the target rather than dropping like a rock in front of them like in Smash 4.

Yeah, I meant near-immediate, or just quick. I'll edit the post.

 

[Deleted member]

Probably already discussed, but Little Mac can now side special into up special, so combine that with an air dodge and he’s got decent recovery.

 

[jwillenn]

^I could be wrong, but the rule of thumb seems to be directional air dodging doesn't make an impossible recovery possible because of the recovery frames that come with it. It would only worsen that kind of situation or even be the key to forfeiting a possible recovery.

As you can see, it appears Pikachu can now act of Skull Bash very quickly when he hits something. Pretty cool, I guess. He even bounces up a bit after getting a hit.

To me, that's fair enough considering it will be easy to parry and punish. It probably could use even more reduction in recovery frames.

 

[DaUsername]

According to the Smash Blog, now uses the Poltergust for his throw. Doesn't really specify much else, but at least it's something new.

 

[lmntolp]

Wow possibly huge, there's some evidence that you can't tech spikes when grounded anymore.

 

[Necro'lic]

Wow possibly huge, there's some evidence that you can't tech spikes when grounded anymore.

Wow, this has been one of my wishes for YEARS, and it finally came true. :D

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Wow, this has been one of my wishes for YEARS, and it finally came true. :D

This was also confirmed by another user on reddit who experimented with it.

Thank goodness, ****! Can finally confirm off spikes again. Gonna be tech chasing with Marth’s Dair lol

 

[Quillion]

Personally, I wish they would go further and make meteors in general hard knockdowns (meaning untechable). If not for the full duration of knockback, just for several frames after being hit. I'd love to see meteors be strengthened beyond being a rather situational KO tool.

 

[Necro'lic]

Personally, I wish they would go further and make meteors in general hard knockdowns (meaning untechable). If not for the full duration of knockback, just for several frames after being hit. I'd love to see meteors be strengthened beyond being a rather situational KO tool.

Oh definitely a good idea. Hard knockdowns should be a thing more often. especially for less overall useful spikes.

This was actually a part of some spitball ideas on how to redo the teching system in Smash, since a lot of the time, being able to tech only removes offensive options most of the time.

 

[J0eyboi]

Was watching a video about Fox being good, and I noticed this.

Fox's Fsmash only goes about half as far as it normally would. Presumably another move that can't cross up.

 

[DaUsername]

This reddit thread has a bunch of changes from the new demo.

 

[Iridium]

https://mobile.twitter.com/fhyrlucario/status/1058307900463038465

For some good Lucario changes.

 

[Nobie]

Been watching through footage of the Nintendo Live event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE

Some observations for meter final smashes:

-First, the things we already know: meter final smashes are weaker, and only one can be performed at a time.
-You get meter for lots of different actions, including successfully landing hits, getting hit, shielding attacks. So it's not purely a comeback mechanic, or a pure reward for aggression either.
-Multiple characters can have meter final smashes charged up at the same time (so it's not like the Smash Ball, where there's only one in play at any given time).
-If you get KO'd while your meter is only partly filled, it adds to your meter. However, if your meter is filled up and you get KO'd, you actually lose a bit of meter. How much meter is lost when you're KO'd seems to vary for some reason. I've seen characters lose anywhere from like 15% meter to 40% meter.

So there's a lot to the mechanic, and also more to discover. Viability for tournament play might just come down to how powerful the strongest of the meter final smashes are. If they're not overwhelming, it could actually work.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Been watching through footage of the Nintendo Live event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE

Some observations for meter final smashes:

-First, the things we already know: meter final smashes are weaker, and only one can be performed at a time.
-You get meter for lots of different actions, including successfully landing hits, getting hit, shielding attacks. So it's not purely a comeback mechanic, or a pure reward for aggression either.
-Multiple characters can have meter final smashes charged up at the same time (so it's not like the Smash Ball, where there's only one in play at any given time).
-If you get KO'd while your meter is only partly filled, it adds to your meter. However, if your meter is filled up and you get KO'd, you actually lose a bit of meter. How much meter is lost when you're KO'd seems to vary for some reason. I've seen characters lose anywhere from like 15% meter to 40% meter.

So there's a lot to the mechanic, and also more to discover. Viability for tournament play might just come down to how powerful the strongest of the meter final smashes are. If they're not overwhelming, it could actually work.

I mean, we saw a weaker Critical Hit still OHKO and there's the Final Smashes that guarantee kills at certain percentages

 

[Zoneyboi]

Meter final smashes seem far too degenerate. Never mind how some characters like Bayonetta have Final Smashes that guarantee death or disability, regardless these moves turn the user invincible, so often they can't even be effectively punished on a miss. It rewards players for playing well, perhaps, but as a gameplay mechanic the FS is totally uninteresting. A worst-case scenario I can imagine is that the player who hits off good combos and damage first doesn't even need to worry about difficult kill set-ups and their character's ability to confirm stocks because they will be awarded with a massive, invincible hotbox of death they can throw out. This would tilt the balance of the game especially towards quick characters that rack up damage, a problem that from the past seems already inherent to the series.

 

[Nobie]

I mean, we saw a weaker Critical Hit still OHKO and there's the Final Smashes that guarantee kills at certain percentages

At the event, a Bayonetta user activated her final smash, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE#t=41m35s

Keep in mind that these are kids playing, so they're not figuring out how to combo into final smashes. At the same time, however, there's information we can glean from it.

The way it worked in Smash 4, Bayonetta would slow down the entire screen, and then anyone who got attacked by Bayonetta during this time would then get attacked by the giant dragon snake thing. If your percent was over 100%, you'd get KO'd by it.

With the meter final smash, however, Bayonetta slows down the screen and then f-smashes Kirby, but Kirby doesn't get attacked by Gomorrah afterwards. In Smash 4 (and I assume with the Smash Ball in Ultimate), that automatic followup should have happened. So they've even gone as far as trying to balance out the Final Smash by removing the guaranteed damage of Gomorrah. There's no footage yet of Bayo attacking someone at 100% with a meter final smash, so there's no telling how that works here.

Marth's is the one that seems up in the air. A kid tried to use it at the event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE#t=2h5m35s), but the enemy Bowser easily avoided it from the distance it was activated by air dodging. The Bowser was jumping during the activation, and then the dodge happened right as Marth was launching forward. I do wonder if the universal 3-frame jump squat helps characters to avoid attacks like this.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

At the event, a Bayonetta user activated her final smash, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QyQWFVRDQE#t=41m35s

Keep in mind that these are kids playing, so they're not figuring out how to combo into final smashes. At the same time, however, there's information we can glean from it.

The way it worked in Smash 4, Bayonetta would slow down the entire screen, and then anyone who got attacked by Bayonetta during this time would then get attacked by the giant dragon snake thing. If your percent was over 100%, you'd get KO'd by it.

With the meter final smash, however, Bayonetta slows down the screen and then f-smashes Kirby, but Kirby doesn't get attacked by Gomorrah afterwards. In Smash 4 (and I assume with the Smash Ball in Ultimate), that automatic followup should have happened. So they've even gone as far as trying to balance out the Final Smash by removing the guaranteed damage of Gomorrah. There's no footage yet of Bayo attacking someone at 100% with a meter final smash, so there's no telling how that works here.

From what I recall of Bayonetta's final smash in 4, this is actually consistent with its old behavior. Bayonetta's successful attacks charged up a meter, and when that meter was full Gomorrah would nom everyone still in hitstun. A single smash on Kirby wouldn't be enough to charge the meter instantly, and since Kirby was out of hitstun by the time it ended, there was no one for Gomorrah to attack.

 

[Jexulus]

Should also be noted that Marth's FS and others like it are comparable (not saying identical, don't strawman please) to Little Mac's KO punch or Cloud's Limit Break, in that you see it coming and know when they have access to it. It's something that needs to be tested, maybe not necessarily in tournaments, but at least tested post-release with a larger sample size before it's dismissed out of hand.

 

[Erimir]

List of Wii Fit Trainer changes from a Spanish Smasher at FICOMIC

https://twitter.com/XVis16/status/1059187650521899014

Summary:
+ dash speed buffed
+ Header lag reduced, ball slightly bigger (as it seemed from pictures)
? Super Hoop is multi-hit
+ and goes higher and requires less mashing
+ u-tilt hitbox is much better, larger and higher (suspected based on changed animation) and can combo into itself at low %
+ less landing lag on b-air
+ front hitbox of f-air seems stronger (also seemed so from Nintendo Treehouse video)
? up-throw less knockback, easier to followup (but probably means harder to KO with)
- f-tilt seems weaker
+ Deep Breathing seems to have a larger knockback boost (possibly placebo)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Should also be noted that Marth's FS and others like it are comparable (not saying identical, don't strawman please) to Little Mac's KO punch or Cloud's Limit Break, in that you see it coming and know when they have access to it. It's something that needs to be tested, maybe not necessarily in tournaments, but at least tested post-release with a larger sample size before it's dismissed out of hand.

Normally I'm all in favor of experimentation and testing, but after watching Spain's event earlier today I don't think metered final smashes will work in competitive play. It was just too easy for characters like Daisy and Zelda to secure kills with them at relatively low %s. (Zelda in particular can guarantee a kill on anyone at 60% with hers since it auto-explodes the target at 100% and does 44% on its own.)

 

[Splotim]

I don't know if anyone's posted this yet, but it appears that you can only re-grab the ledge 4 or 5 times. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but who knows?
Source

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Here's a weird one: Sonic takes DOT while in the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkkgAnMLFHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1020

 

[Nobie]

It's been confirmed that you can't run through shields even in this final build, so it's an intentional part of the game. It might be useful to think about why they made this change.

One thing that's been discussed before is that it makes cornering the opponent more powerful. But I also wonder if it's an intentional nerf to characters who are fast on the ground. They're the ones who have the easiest time crossing up opponents on the ground, and the ones who potentially stand to lose the most from it. This might be why people focus so much on Fox nerfs in particular, because he's the poster child for crossups.

 

[Necro'lic]

It's been confirmed that you can't run through shields even in this final build, so it's an intentional part of the game. It might be useful to think about why they made this change.

One thing that's been discussed before is that it makes cornering the opponent more powerful. But I also wonder if it's an intentional nerf to characters who are fast on the ground. They're the ones who have the easiest time crossing up opponents on the ground, and the ones who potentially stand to lose the most from it. This might be why people focus so much on Fox nerfs in particular, because he's the poster child for crossups.

Any nerf to fast characters is a good one in my book, barring slowing them down, so I really can't complain about the ramifications of this change, especially when you can still crossup with most dash attacks and all rolls.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What kind of mechanic changes have been made to fighters who have been buried?

In Brawl, buried fighters had to take more than 100 units of knockback to be launched, and the amount of knockback taken never gets reduced.

In Smash 3DS / Wii U, fighters had to take more than 70 units of knockback to be launched, but they also took 0.7x the normal knockback from attacks while buried.

 

[Nu~]

Can you still JC usmash? I've been hearing mixed reports

 

[Necro'lic]

Can you still JC usmash? I've been hearing mixed reports

You can't. You can do something that basically is the same thing functionally by dashing and cancelling into an upsmash.

 

[J0eyboi]

You can't. You can do something that basically is the same thing functionally by dashing and cancelling into an upsmash.

Wait, really?

So you can't upsmash OoS?

 

[Necro'lic]

Wait, really?

So you can't upsmash OoS?

Ummmm... no. I'm pretty sure you can usmash oos just fine.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I noticed that in the beginning, Sheik’s rapid jab doesn’t exhibit the properties in the game that “drag in” a character to the ground when they do a jab. Does the DI effect only work on grounded opponents, was it toned down? Not sure, but it’s interrsting. Jab resets may still exist to an extent.