Social The Suburbs of Onett - Ness Social Thread

[Earthbound360]

I think it was like 5 games and i remember you ending it with jigglypuff, I got you well enough that it ended with you spamming sing i think could have been a different jigglypuff, but I do remember playing a OJ

Couldn't have been me. I never use sing as Jigglypuff unless it's on accident.

Shame, I would like to see you against other players on your level. Are you going to play tournaments in the next months?

I go to Xanadu tournaments sometimes, but I have only been to 1 for Smash 4. I think I'm going to want to polish my Ness a bit more before I go more regularly.

So I went to a tournament with about 23 people in it. I split for first. Got to winners finals without dropping a game. In loser's finals I beat a yoshi 3-2. The winner from grand finals then offered to split so I did. It was streamed so I will find the link for that too.

This was a pretty small tournament so it's not a huge accomplishment, but I'm happy I did well. The past two tournaments I did very poorly.

This also marks the fourth time I've played against sonic. I've never beat him in tournament. I've played static manny twice and he's a much better player than me so I expect to lose to him. Same with Streetshark who is also better than me and ive faced his sonic once. The last sonic though, True Blue, he's also probably better than me but I feel closest to him in skill. Meh Ive never lost to a Sonic worse than me but the matchup is starting to concern me.

Congrats on the small success. I still think Sonic is our literal worst matchup

 

[Noa.]

Couldn't have been me. I never use sing as Jigglypuff unless it's on accident.



I go to Xanadu tournaments sometimes, but I have only been to 1 for Smash 4. I think I'm going to want to polish my Ness a bit more before I go more regularly.



Congrats on the small success. I still think Sonic is our literal worst matchup

When I think about our potential worst matchups, I think of sonic diddy and Rosalina. I really don't think she'll is that bad. I don't think diddy is awful either because the matchup feels like we're both trying to do the same thing, and that's grab each other. Rosa and sonic though. Meh. My record against rosa is 4-3. Not too bad considering I'm 0-4 against sonic. But the skill of the sonics were all higher than the skill of Rosalinas.

I don't want to read too much into my tourney results.

Sonic might be our worst. Maybe he's not that. Idk.

 

[Earthbound360]

The way I see it, he just literally has every tool to counter Ness barring an unabsorbable projectile.

Of course, we're all entitled to our own viewpoints, but I still think Sonic, Sheik, and Diddy are our worst nightmares, and Rosalina is overrated in terms of difficulty.

Here's a fun little extra question I feel like asking. Who do we think Ness has a massive leg up upon? I personally think Little Mac is really, really easy because of Ness' fthrow and excellent edgeguard and juggle ability.

 

[Pazx]

I've had a lot of trouble against potentially the best Mac in Australia but I'm going to blame the skill disparity for that, I need to improve.

I think we have a significant advantage over some of the slower characters like Ike, Shulk, DK and other characters like that because they're easy to juggle and tend to not have quick aerials to get out of combos.

 

[Noa.]

The way I see it, he just literally has every tool to counter Ness barring an unabsorbable projectile.

Of course, we're all entitled to our own viewpoints, but I still think Sonic, Sheik, and Diddy are our worst nightmares, and Rosalina is overrated in terms of difficulty.

Here's a fun little extra question I feel like asking. Who do we think Ness has a massive leg up upon? I personally think Little Mac is really, really easy because of Ness' fthrow and excellent edgeguard and juggle ability.

Ok so what are our best matchups.

I would agree that we do very well against little Mac. Fthrow is really good against him, and bthrow kills him very very early as well. We can shield him for free because he gets such an awful reward from grabs. It's a bit difficult to land against him but he's very much in our favor. If you just stay grounded you can grab him easily.

I think we destroy bowser jr. We usually have difficulty with people who have fast disjointed aerials, but bowser jr's short hop height is so high that we can just run under him and sh nair. We combo him easily due to his big size. When we bthrow him it applies his lighter weight. We can gimp his up b very easily with the tail of pk thunder. If you interrupt him while he jumps up with pk Thunder he can't reuse his up b for a time. Sh fair beats out most of his approaches with the clown car.

We destroy DDD. He fat and slow. His projectile sucks. He gets stuck in pk Fire. He gets comboed really easily. It's really free for us. DDD is just a bad character really.

I would say the same thing about bowser and charizard. They're both much better than DDD but still fall to the same problems. Also applies to Ganondorf.

The problem with these characters is that they usually rely on being able to fall behind in percent but still get the ko first. It's different against Ness because he kills so well. Ness kills almost as well as they do, but we are much smaller and have combos.

However I don't think this applies to dk and Ike. They have both the speed and range to keep us at bay unlike the other big characters. Ike especially is not slow if you're playing an Ike that sticks to his good options in neutral, Nair, jab, Bair etc. We might even lose a little to Ike and dk. But I don't have enough experience to say that for sure.

I think we beat robin pretty handily. His big Frame makes him easy to combo. He has great aerials but he doesn't have the aerial mobility or dash speed to be threatening with them. His usual zoning tools of arcfire and arcthunder have to be used with care because we have psi magnet. When Robin is recovering he so has very poor options to pk Thunder juggling and is very vulnerable to it.

I think we have a small advantage against zss. She generally has a tiny bit more trouble with smaller characters, and she can't use paralyzed and dsmash with impunity. Not that much, but enough to incur a small advantage.

I think we beat pac man but I just think he's a bad character.

I've played against a handful of duck hunt players, but they were all worse than me so take this with a grain of salt. I think we beat duck hunt just because it's not that hard to get in on him and we destroy him up close. I feel that his aerials are not good at combating pk Thunder either. But I am much less confident about this opinion cause I haven't played against any great duck hunt players.

We beat Lucario cause we can kill him early, before his aura really starts kicking off.

And uh I'm sure there are other matchups but those are the ones that im thinking about now.

 

[NAKAT]

I stream at twitch.tv/nakat973

 

[Earthbound360]

Wii Fit Trainer is another one I think that we might have a large advantage against. Ness just barely falls under the "small enough to be a pain in the ass to hit" category for WFT. You can dodge her grab accidentally just because of Ness' size and move animations. It's hard enough to KO with her on normal characters, even moreso against characters like Ness.

Also, if anyone is interested in testing, does dtilt trip into bat true combo? I was testing it with some friends today and they said they couldn't get out with multiple trials.

 

[Sir_Zedd]

I know you guys have answered a bunch of questions like this but how do I manage against Sheik as Ness? I have a local rival who just picked her up and I'm honestly clueless regarding this matchup. Pkfire is too risky thanks to her speed and needles, she can annoy Ness easily while he tries to recover
and bouncing fish hurts so much!

I'm sure there is other things but that's just off the top of my head. Dont get me wrong I'm not trying to say Sheik is OP, obviously I got outplayed but any tips would be appreciated.

I stream at twitch.tv/nakat973

Long shot, but I know you have experience in the MU and I would appreciate it!

Spoiler

I've been watching you

 

[Pazx]

Don't get hit by bouncing fish or sweetspot Usmash and you'll live to 150%, back throw with rage.

So something NAKAT talks about a lot is hitting people before they sweetspot the ledge (eg. Fox's dtilt), is our dtilt good to use for that?

 

[Screk]

I stream at twitch.tv/nakat973

OnettBoyz all day ! Also Zero to Hero is great idea for anyone here who wants to level up their smash game.

 

[SageEnder]

Don't get hit by bouncing fish or sweetspot Usmash and you'll live to 150%, back throw with rage.

So something NAKAT talks about a lot is hitting people before they sweetspot the ledge (eg. Fox's dtilt), is our dtilt good to use for that?

that is actually one of my favorite moves in the ness ditto because it cancels our double jump

 

[Earthbound360]

A smart opponent really shouldn't be jumping into the ledge without an accompanied air dodge or aerial when they know the opponent is there waiting for them. Sometimes they'll even just UpB prematurely to auto-sweetspot the edge.

 

[Pazx]

A smart opponent really shouldn't be jumping into the ledge without an accompanied air dodge or aerial when they know the opponent is there waiting for them. Sometimes they'll even just UpB prematurely to auto-sweetspot the edge.

Apparently there is a 1 frame window while sweetspotting the ledge that the character is vulnerable for, that's what I'm referring to. If you watch Nakat play he does it a lot as Fox, dtilting precisely when the opponent should be grabbing the ledge. This usually applies to them using their up b.

Edit: maybe our yo-yo is a better option in this situation.

 

[Piggyman86]

so if we can do it consistantly is there a reason NOT to land with dair when possible? im not sure of its faster than just landing but it just feels more fluid to dair->shield when you anticipate anything other than a grab and i punish a lot of ppl by faking them out when landing near them.

 

[Noa.]

Apparently there is a 1 frame window while sweetspotting the ledge that the character is vulnerable for, that's what I'm referring to. If you watch Nakat play he does it a lot as Fox, dtilting precisely when the opponent should be grabbing the ledge. This usually applies to them using their up b.

Edit: maybe our yo-yo is a better option in this situation.

In that situation it's very easy to abuse that frame of vulnerability with pk thunder. Just making the Thunder go straight through the ledge all the way makes it easy to hit that one frame window.

I don't think dsmash or dtilt can hit it. You need a move with a hitbox that will do below the stage and hit the character. I think anyways. I haven't tested it. I know that timing a dair is possible. I imagine any aerial would work. Nair would be easiest.

 

[Earthbound360]

so if we can do it consistantly is there a reason NOT to land with dair when possible? im not sure of its faster than just landing but it just feels more fluid to dair->shield when you anticipate anything other than a grab and i punish a lot of ppl by faking them out when landing near them.

You mean as a substitute for teching? I've tried stuff like this, and it seems rather inconsistent, and I don't understand why. Sometimes when I dair to land out of a tumbling animation, I get the normal autocancel animation and can move freely. Other times, I'll be stuck in some extra landing lag. I've stopped doing thsi because that extra landing lag that I can't explain has sometimes gotten me hit.

Apparently there is a 1 frame window while sweetspotting the ledge that the character is vulnerable for, that's what I'm referring to. If you watch Nakat play he does it a lot as Fox, dtilting precisely when the opponent should be grabbing the ledge. This usually applies to them using their up b.

Edit: maybe our yo-yo is a better option in this situation.

If that's the case, I think dsmash has the longest active frames and hits low enough to do that. I'd like to see an example of this though, because I was not aware of it. Dair would be near impossible to land since it only spikes for 1 frame, and lining up that 1 frame with the other 1 frame would be ridiculous.

 

[Noa.]

The actual window is not one frame. It's a handful haha. The video that explained the vulnerability showed various characters using their dairs to abuse this window. Ness could do it too. If anything though, it'd probably be better to just try to use Bair as it has way more knockback, or nair cause it's easier to land.

 

[PKBeam]

what about PKF? doesn't hit low enough?

 

[Noa.]

It does not. It has to go below the ledge.

 

[Earthbound360]

Wait, how many frames is PK Flash active for?

 

[PKBeam]

funnily enough that's one of the few things our frame data doesn't tell us. probably not more than a few frames, if that.

 

[Noa.]

So I just got back from a tournament. Got 4th out of like 25ish people or so. Maybe it was 30. Idk how many people showed up exactly.

I lost to the same player twice, Streetshark. He's also who I lost to last Saturday. I've lost to him three times in the last two tournaments lol. He's quite good and we play the Ness Sonic matchup. The more I play this matchup the more even I feel it is. I think this matchup requires a lot of matchup knowledge. It is very difficult to punish Sonic's approaches because not only does he travel so far away, he also reduces the size of his hurtbox by going into ball form. It's important to learn how to punish Sonic for his approaches and stuff, but punishing him requires great timing and precision. If you mess up the punish then you will receive free damage from Sonic himself. The matchup is not that bad actually, it's just that the opportunities to hit sonic are restrictive, and when you mess up you get punished for it.

 

[Earthbound360]

So I just got back from a tournament. Got 4th out of like 25ish people or so. Maybe it was 30. Idk how many people showed up exactly.

I lost to the same player twice, Streetshark. He's also who I lost to last Saturday. I've lost to him three times in the last two tournaments lol. He's quite good and we play the Ness Sonic matchup. The more I play this matchup the more even I feel it is. I think this matchup requires a lot of matchup knowledge. It is very difficult to punish Sonic's approaches because not only does he travel so far away, he also reduces the size of his hurtbox by going into ball form. It's important to learn how to punish Sonic for his approaches and stuff, but punishing him requires great timing and precision. If you mess up the punish then you will receive free damage from Sonic himself. The matchup is not that bad actually, it's just that the opportunities to hit sonic are restrictive, and when you mess up you get punished for it.

I feel like when the matchup is low risk, high reward for one guy, and high risk, high reward for the other, it's generally in their favor.
But it's good you're getting Sonic matchup experience. I'll need to absorb everything you learn since I'm terrified of the Blue Blur.

On a similar note, I just got back from one of my first real tournament appearances for Smash 4. Didn't do terrible, but I didn't get as far as I had hoped either (though I'm currently unsure of my specific placement). It was a Xanadu tournament (S@X). I went against PinkFresh in round 2, so I got put into losers rather early (and what saddens me is that I really should have won my set against him). What I'm most happy about is the amount of funny/hype stuff I managed to do in my matches. Never realized how much of a goofball I play like.

My first victory was against a Pacman who was actually wrecking me at first. But then I learned the matchup as I went along, finally closing it out in victory by... reflecting a strawberry at point blank. Yeah.
Then I took on Pinkfresh, winning round 1 by getting a PKT2 on him at like 40%. I sent PKT out as an edgeguard and turned it into PKT2 when he jumped over me to recover
But then I got nervous and lost the last game despite my 70% damage lead on him. I uaired him twice and bthrew him once and he didn't die >.<
Then in my 3rd game I got ANOTHER really early PKT against a Rosalina with a stupid gimmick combo of dthrow, dash under them, PKT2.
Finally, I was losing a match against Tantalus' Diddy by like 60%. He tried to jump out and edgeguard me, but he ended up taking the sweetspot of my dair for his troubles XD

So yeah, reflected strawberries, PKT2 KOs at ludicrous percentages, and counter edgeguard dairs are some hype ****.

 

[PKBeam]

I kinda feel Sonic is the better side of a -1.

 

[Noa.]

I feel like when the matchup is low risk, high reward for one guy, and high risk, high reward for the other, it's generally in their favor.
But it's good you're getting Sonic matchup experience. I'll need to absorb everything you learn since I'm terrified of the Blue Blur.

On a similar note, I just got back from one of my first real tournament appearances for Smash 4. Didn't do terrible, but I didn't get as far as I had hoped either (though I'm currently unsure of my specific placement). It was a Xanadu tournament (S@X). I went against PinkFresh in round 2, so I got put into losers rather early (and what saddens me is that I really should have won my set against him). What I'm most happy about is the amount of funny/hype stuff I managed to do in my matches. Never realized how much of a goofball I play like.

My first victory was against a Pacman who was actually wrecking me at first. But then I learned the matchup as I went along, finally closing it out in victory by... reflecting a strawberry at point blank. Yeah.
Then I took on Pinkfresh, winning round 1 by getting a PKT2 on him at like 40%. I sent PKT out as an edgeguard and turned it into PKT2 when he jumped over me to recover
But then I got nervous and lost the last game despite my 70% damage lead on him. I uaired him twice and bthrew him once and he didn't die >.<
Then in my 3rd game I got ANOTHER really early PKT against a Rosalina with a stupid gimmick combo of dthrow, dash under them, PKT2.
Finally, I was losing a match against Tantalus' Diddy by like 60%. He tried to jump out and edgeguard me, but he ended up taking the sweetspot of my dair for his troubles XD

So yeah, reflected strawberries, PKT2 KOs at ludicrous percentages, and counter edgeguard dairs are some hype ****.

Haha wow I can't believe you got a kill with dair in tournament. For all the **** we give it lol.

And that's awesome that you did ok at Xanadu. Those tournaments are stacked haha. Pink fresh is a very good player I think. Who/what did you lose to in winners?

And Idk if I would describe it as high risk vs low risk. More like it's really easy for sonic to punish is and hard for us to punish him. Talking from a tech skill and mechanical skill point, as well as knowledge. It's simialr to diddy vs sheik in how good they are. It's a lot easier to pick up and play and do well with diddy. But sheik is still the better character even if she's harder. Or at least a lot of top players think so.

In the same way that just because it's easier for sonic players to punish us doesn't mean it's necessarily riskier. It will be risky until you have the knowledge and timing down.

And I'm really interefed in trying to use pk Thunder oos in application against sonic and sheik. Both characters rely on hitting our shield safely and then retreating quickly. But pk Thunder oos might be able to punish it. Idk though I've never tried. And I'm referring to when sheik bouncing fishes our shield.

 

[PKBeam]

if you mean chasing her retreat with PKT, yeah that could work.

 

[Earthbound360]

Haha wow I can't believe you got a kill with dair in tournament. For all the **** we give it lol.

And that's awesome that you did ok at Xanadu. Those tournaments are stacked haha. Pink fresh is a very good player I think. Who/what did you lose to in winners?

And Idk if I would describe it as high risk vs low risk. More like it's really easy for sonic to punish is and hard for us to punish him. Talking from a tech skill and mechanical skill point, as well as knowledge. It's simialr to diddy vs sheik in how good they are. It's a lot easier to pick up and play and do well with diddy. But sheik is still the better character even if she's harder. Or at least a lot of top players think so.

In the same way that just because it's easier for sonic players to punish us doesn't mean it's necessarily riskier. It will be risky until you have the knowledge and timing down.

And I'm really interefed in trying to use pk Thunder oos in application against sonic and sheik. Both characters rely on hitting our shield safely and then retreating quickly. But pk Thunder oos might be able to punish it. Idk though I've never tried. And I'm referring to when sheik bouncing fishes our shield.

I lost to Pinkfresh first, who put me in losers. Then I lost to 2 Fast's Luigi. I think that matchup isn't great, but I definitely had no idea what I was getting into, as I haven't really had enough time against a good Luigi. I feel like I could have played that one much better than I did.

I guess I sorta see what your saying, but it still sounds like an uphill battle to me.

PKT sounds like a risky OoS punish with how fast those characters are. Idk about Sheik, but what's stopping us from just full jump aerial punishes against Sonic?

 

[PKBeam]

PKT sounds like a risky OoS punish with how fast those characters are. Idk about Sheik, but what's stopping us from just full jump aerial punishes against Sonic?

Nothing (in my experience).

 

[Pazx]

Did you play on the streaming setup at all @ Earthbound360 ? I think I caught a little bit of the live stream but will be on the lookout for vids featuring you.

I think we probably have the edge on Luigi provided we only let CQC occur on our terms and we respect the nair.

 

[Luco]

Oh @ Pazx I heard you wanted to ask questions about my matches but I've been away the past week and just kinda skipped the last few pages of the thread! Was there anything you wanted to ask in particular? Bear in mind much of it was me experimenting with stuff, also Delfino got banned against me consistently because people saw me do well on it early on, so I took the closest thing I could get with Skyloft and it worked for whatever reason

 

[Noa.]

I lost to Pinkfresh first, who put me in losers. Then I lost to 2 Fast's Luigi. I think that matchup isn't great, but I definitely had no idea what I was getting into, as I haven't really had enough time against a good Luigi. I feel like I could have played that one much better than I did.

I guess I sorta see what your saying, but it still sounds like an uphill battle to me.

PKT sounds like a risky OoS punish with how fast those characters are. Idk about Sheik, but what's stopping us from just full jump aerial punishes against Sonic?

Luigi and Doc both have decent matchups against Ness. They're biggest weakness is getting in on other characters when they're approaching. Ness has poor defensive tools and is not good at stopping approaches. We really only have pivot pk Fire and fair for aerial approaches.

Usually Ness does well because his reward is so high for how easy it is to land his options. Both doc and luigi have rewards that are just as high, or even higher. They instead have more trouble getting in compared to Ness. Ness can't exploit this weakness well. Ness wil usually lose more grades than he wins against other characters, but our reward usually vastly outweighs theirs. Not the case with doc and luigi though. We have to play a lot safer against them. I don't necessarily think we lose to them, and we're still better a better character than them, but they're good pocket characters that are effective against Ness.

And with sonic, if he uses spin dashes and hits your shield, he'll usually retreat to the other side of the stage. You can't do an aerial oos because he's too far away. But you could possibly punish him with pk Thunder.

And with sheik Im solely referring to when she uses bouncing fish against you onstage. If it hits your shield she bounces off it, and it's very hard to punish. But maybe pk Thunder oos could punish it.

 

[Luco]

Pink Fresh went over to the dark side.

Also Fair seems to do well against weegee, like, magnet cancel any fireballs he hilariously tries to throw out in neutral and then try to make his landings miserable. That said I agree that once he gets in we can have a difficult time, even with OoS Nair and stuff. @.@

 

[Earthbound360]

Did you play on the streaming setup at all @ Earthbound360 ? I think I caught a little bit of the live stream but will be on the lookout for vids featuring you.

I think we probably have the edge on Luigi provided we only let CQC occur on our terms and we respect the nair.

Nah, I got put into losers really early, and they don't really put losers on the stream unless it's like top 4 or something. Not to mention the stream was all funky last night and wasn't working until much later in the tournament.

The biggest issue was certainly the close range game against Luigi for me. The fireballs were really non-problematic thanks to magnet, but once he was in, the dthrow to fair combos just got nasty. His nair comes out faster than ours, and Luigi's floatiness made him particularly hard to combo with dthrow stuff.

 

[PSIBoy]

So did you guys (and gals) hear that the Ness amiibo is arriving in Wave 4, which was confirmed... Eight hours ago? I'm hyped.

 

[yoshi8984]

I don't know if y'all have seen this but dear god our Bat's Reflection seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. o.o

 

[PSIBoy]

I don't know if y'all have seen this but dear god our Bat's Reflection seems to be getting more and more ridiculous. o.o

I don't think I ever saw anyone fly off the screen that fast before. I didn't bust a gut at this, but it made me laugh. That's something that doesn't seem to happen much anymore, mainly a good chuckle for funny things at most.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Over at the Kirby boards, we're doing the Ness MU this week! Hopefully some of you can drop by and give your thoughts on it. I'm not sure if many Ness mains have had experience against Kirby, so you can ask anybody over there if they'd like to play.

"Fuzzy Pickles!"

 

[Lochy]

Hey guys a Ness amiibo was announced on the Nintendo Direct today. It's coming in spring along with a few other amiibos!

 

[Katasketti]

Hello Ness friends

 

[PSIBoy]

Hey guys a Ness amiibo was announced on the Nintendo Direct today. It's coming in spring along with a few other amiibos!

I'm preordering one along with Toad and maybe Lucina (Codename: Steam) as soon as they are available. Sad to say that would be my first piece of Earthbound merchandise ever.

Hello Ness friends

Welcome to Smashboards, and the Ness boards! Hope you enjoy your stay here.