The SSB64 Backroom: Yea or Nay

[asianaussie]

The stickied thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=286281

DO NOT DISCUSS WHETHER WE SHOULD HAVE A SECTION OR NOT. PLEASE CONSIDER BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT BEFORE POSTING A YAY OR NAY. READ THE WHOLE POST BEFORE YOU CRITICISE OR COMMEND ANYTHING

THERE IS A POLL BUT PLEASE POST A FORMAL YAY OR NAY IF YOU WISH TO HAVE YOUR STANCE KNOWN (I encourage regular 64 posters to do so).

The poll results are not in the tally at the end of this post, only the posted yays and nays are shown there.

The original issue:

So recently one of the members of your community approached me about putting together a Smash 64 backroom.

I have no objections on my end, in fact am all for it if it will benefit the 64 community. But I did want to let you guys weigh in first and hear your thoughts.

So questions.

Do you think having a backroom will seclude certain members from having serious and intelligent discussion they can participate in and hurt the overall 64 or provide a place and recognition for certain members to come up with more resources for this room and to aid the scene? IE, in your opinion will it help or hurt the 64 community at large?

Question 2. If you think the backroom is a good idea, please recommend the individual/s that you think would be best suited to run the usergroup and head the project (do not list more than 3 please).

Before you post or read this, know that this thread is only to establish the proportion of people who want or do not want a backroom. If you have a specific person in mind for the backroom (or will not vote yes unless said person is heading the project), post that with your 'yay' or 'nay'.

Presented arguments FOR the establishment of a backroom

Spoiler

I dont think there would be a division of members problem honestly.

If we get our own section and just have it as a group within it, it'll be the same as any other (general discussions, competitive events..etc).

I think it's like Lion said...it'll promote the growth of discussions like SuperBooms Hyrule thread

I think it will seclude certain members but i think it will provide a place and recognition for members to come up with ideas to aid the scene in the long run. I think it will help the 64 community just as long as the BRoom members communicate with the rest of the community what is going on and what's the current topic. Alternately, the BRoom members can have public polls where the rest of the community can discuss their feelings on certain topics. I think it's a good idea just as long the other members don't feel left out, you know? Keep everybody in the loop.

A backroom (advertised somehow on the homepage) would really raise the prestige of this section, and i'm 100% for the formation of one as long as the selection criteria are incredibly strict. Given the small community, maybe 4 or 5 members at the most would be a decent size.

What I'm worried about is the redundancy factor. Seeing as the metagame is fairly advanced (nothing new and amazing will come out to influence matchups, etc), I'd like to know what they'd discuss. Perhaps they'll come out with a tier list where Kirby is over Fox, or Link over Luigi, or some trivial inter-tier change like that. Maybe an updated ruleset or something? I just don't see it. It would by and large be an exercise in promotion of Smash 64's competitive validity.

Ignoring the second paragraph of nitpicking and tomfoolery (cuz you know backrooms hold daily groundbreaking conferences on the future of their respective games), a backroom would do what 64 needs most - attract a larger competitive crowd. The only thing that 64 lacks (that melee and brawl have) is a competitive scene, and 64 has arguably the best internet multiplayer to boot.

I think backroom would be a good idea since I see a lot of dumb posts on serious topics and nothing gets done because of a lack of backroom final decisions.

a backroom would make ppl take smash64 more serious than they already do

hypothetical sequence of events

1) lobby mindlessly until the site's staff give in
2) get our own section
3) get influx of noobs
4) get need for backroom
5) get said backroom
6) increase competitive prestige even further
7) get even more people, most of them melee players
8) 64 becomes viable as a serious side-tourney in big tournaments
9) everybody is happy
10) brawlers realise brawl sucks compared to 64
11) brawl kids flood the 64 section
12) 64 becomes as dominant as chilli dogs and waffles combined
13) great success but with large following of noobs

I actually believe a backroom would be beneficial to the 64 community. There are many cases where something (e.g. Stage legality, specific rules, etc.) is important to discuss... However, when we have everyone discuss it, we go nowhere. Having a backroom to make these decisions would allow more to be done in that sense.

However, general discussion should not be allowed in the backroom. It should remain for only rule discussion or something similar and not turn into a noob-free chatroom. As long as that doesn't happen, I think a backroom could be beneficial.

You guys need to stop saying we don't need one. We definitely do and its first job is to redefine the tournament rules, that is to say legal stages / tiers list / Time limit rule.

Exactly. I personally think the stage list needs to be tweaked. We want smash 64 to evolve don't we? Our community and our game. I think if we get a backroom we can better the rules and such on how we conduct ourselves and hopefully that will make for better gaming.

Also it is my personal belief that whoever is elected as "leader" of the backroom should choose who is allowed in much like a president would choose a cabinet. Maybe even two people.. I'm not sure just some ideas.

I can't wait for a backroom! I want to bring about a whole new level of smashhh woo more people more competition (Viable side 64 tournaments would be so sexy, real competitive 64 console play is close to extinct) better definition ... things are looking up for smash 64.

More on console tournaments: I really feel that an ultimate goal for us would be to make 64 popular enough online (playing and forum-going) that its more popular on console and that we can actually see the 64 competitive scene actually make a breakthrough into the real world. I'm sure it won't be as big as melee or brawl. It's way past it's time but hey so many people still play melee...

tl;dr L1ON is excited.

edits: spelling and grammerz is hard to come by in the wild and even the zoo.

isnt that the point of a backroom, to exclude the opinions that are less worthy...?

well i guess we already do that, seeing as the tier list came out okay

but having to fend off questions on why luigi >> pika is wrong is annoying

It has already been said but I also agree that a Backroom might be good to make the SSB64 Community look more serious in terms of competitivity, but I fear that the members' ego may also pop up and make everyone who doesn't agree with something look like a n00b just because they are not on the Backroom or they just not met their criteria of "being a pro".

If there's a Backroom I suggest it to be public from the start, with everyone allowing to post on it and then, if it's possible, start "Banning" the people who doesn't contribute to anything to the discussion from the Backroom section.

Anyways, I do think a BR would help out the 64 community. Sure there may be disadvantages, but overall, the pros far out-weigh the cons, and if we do it properly, we can reduce any (if not all) cons.

First off, we look more competitive and more professional, therefore more people will realize that smash 64 is actually a competitive game just like melee and brawl.

Second, those who know the game the best (emphasis on KNOWS THE GAME, not PLAYS THE GAME) will be discussing the fine details of what the rules should be, what the tier list/matchup chart should look like, etc. Therefore, good discussion will occur there.

Having a backroom is important for SSB64's appearance in the smash community. I'm all for it. I'd also like to think that I'm deserving of being a member of it.

honestly who is going to get hurt from the establishment of the backroom, its not like voting yes will kill a baby seal or something

while there are people with valid arguments for no backroom, its undeniable that this will further the cause of competitive smash 64 (primarily in terms of image, but that - and a lack of community - is basically what we lack atm)

Presented arguments AGAINST the establishment of a backroom

Spoiler

I think a 64 backroom is a bad idea. It would be pretty unuseful for a game that has (at the moment) a pretty small community, and basically everyone knows each other here... and we are few who actually post. I find disgusting that some want their opinions to be more important than others and basically want to exclude everyone that has different opinions.
Just because you are a better player or something doesnt mean your opinion is more important than others. Every opinion matters as long as people use their brain.

Oh and of course I would like to be in if its created, the same for everybody probably, as no one likes to feel their opinions less important than others.

I think a backroom is pointless unless a) it follows ssb64 getting a section like melee and brawl (aka not buried in a gaming) or b) it leads to ssb64 getting a section like melee and brawl (aka not buried in a gaming). Basically we are already a backroom, and splitting us up even more would not help the community. Given our own section, more people would notice and maybe then a backroom would make more sense.

I don't like the idea of a backroom in general. The whole point of internet forums imo is that everyone can give their opinion, but the backroom prevents that. Also, at the VERY least the backroom should be viewable by everyone, even if not everyone can post there.

I am 1000% for smash 64 getting its own section, even if the section only has the two forums.

I am against the forming of a 64 backroom. It would just make some people who contribute to this already small section feel ****y for not being included.

what is the exact purpose of a backroom?...its just diving the community ...a community that it is small enough....

if you do not want noobs, ore jurks to comment....make something similar where everybody can enter and see...but not everybody can write....you have to win the right to respond....just that......

whats the real point of a backroom?....just to say, "hey, we have a backroom know"....i dont think new things are going to happen for having a more "exclusive" place to post

think about it

Totally for a backroom. RAWR. But it really only would make us feel good at this point. Getting 64 its own section should be top priority. Then maybe we would have more forum-goers and then have good use for a backroom. I don't want to turn the backroom down though because 64 seems to have little light shed on it from the upper world and if we don't get it while we can we may never get it =/

I don't think the backroom is a good idea. Our community isn't large enough to justify splitting it up. Sure, we may have a few dumb posters (NO NAMES HERE) that make dumb (strategy-wise, not spam-wise) comments here in there, but I really don't think it's such a problem that threads are getting cluttered, and certainly not such a problem so that we need a backroom to separate our community.

Yeah, the backroom is kinda pointless. It's good in melee/brawl because (I assume) they have such a volume of noobs coming in. Our noob-to-relatively-experienced person ratio is, I would guess, quite a bit better than Melee or Brawl's. Also, the number of people in our forum would mean that a backroom, if the same ratio of BR Mem's to non-BR-mem's were kept, would only have a couple of people in it, which is hardly a recipe for a really good discussion.

I think that it'll do jack **** for our reputation with the melee and brawl peeps, and if you guys think about it honestly for a second, you might come to share that view. Like I said earlier, we don't have the right number of members or ratio of experienced to non-experienced people to make a BR useful.

My (hopefully) final stance: Solidly against a BR.

I agree with Ballin
It would hurt the n64 community if only certain people could view the backroom
if everyone can view it then it would help us out a bit.
Also maybe have many membersz

I say no, we're a small community to the point where we can talk about say the tier list and have everyone's opinion count.

The main con people list is that people will feel elitist if they are in, or shunned if they are out. Only the people who know the game very well (at the highest level of play) should be in the backroom. If the BR members are chosen correctly, even I should not be in it (though I would love to be, there are many more people who know much more than I do). If people are not chosen, it simply means that others know the game better, whether they are better or not (lame example, but an example nonetheless... someone who plays only Kirby and does very well should not be allowed in, as they don't know much about anything not Kirby related).

I really don't think that a backroom will make a single melee or brawl player take smash more seriously. In fact, I think it'll hurt the cause of competitive smash 64 by splitting up an already small community.

The brief summary of the issue:

• Further recognised as a competitive game by all who visit the site
• Other players (melee, brawl) will take the game more seriously
• Good discussion will occur and decisions will be made
• Clarify minor issues that general discussion will not
• Formal rulesets and the like can be established
• Promote smash 64 outside the 64 forum

• May create elitism and division in the community
• Not enough people to satisfy both the 'good noob-BRoomer ratio' and 'enough people to facilitate discussion' needs
• Creates the notion that some opinions are better than others
• Creates a hassle for determining who can and can't join
• It is possible no brawl/melee players will be affected by or even notice the formation of our backroom without an accompanying section

From here on, it's SUBJECTIVE. Feel free to discuss but please come to a decision. If you can't, then you're not backroom material

My opinion: I believe the backroom will help more than it hurts. First of all, I assume the backroom will be well executed, the members will be chosen for post quality and extensive game knowledge, and the backroom will not degenerate into a mere noob-free chatroom. Elitism is already present in the boards, and because we're a small community, we basically know who is good and who isn't. A Backroom will not divide us so long as those not in the backroom recognise that those in the backroom were chosen because they demonstrate maturity, have good knowledge, and are able to express this knowledge without becoming disgusted with others' opinions. I have already expressed my opinions on what the mere title of 'Smash 64 BRoomer' under one's name will do for the smash64 competitive scene.

I have no clue who to nominate for the backroom leadership - for membership I would put forward Blue Yoshi, JaimeHR and dandan. There are more suitable people but I have a limit of 3, sorry.

from me a resounding YES.

Arbitrary tally:

YES: 16.
me
ciaza
dandan
felipe
glowworm
mahie
devMBC
puu
King Funk
Agony
Supermario
DemonicInfluence
Thino
kuzinator
kabutox
KrazyGlue?

NO: 2.
Battlecow
ShootingStar

CONFUSED: 3.
Nixxon (why do you bring up section talk)
ballin4life (only if viewable by all)
blue yoshi (tentative to all)

 

[ciaza]

YAY

10yays

Edit: To raise awareness about the game and for people to take the game more seriously. Prestige and respect basically.

 

[dandan]

yay, all for it.

edit: i think it will be easier to have an in depth discussion and help the metagame with a back room.

 

[felipe_9595]

YAY

+8000 Yays

 

[Glöwworm]

yay .

 

[Mahie]

Add one more Yay on my behalf.
Principally because a whole new rule set has to be done.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

For now, YAY.

I do think that if it is used properly, it can be very beneficial to the 64 community.

 

[Glöwworm]

For now, YAY.

I do think that if it is used properly, it can be very beneficial to the 64 community.

for now? you either believe it will work or you don't

 

[asianaussie]

i think his stance is valid

hes basically saying that the theory is good but he doubts the execution

 

[Mahie]

You should write the name of the voters somewhere, just to make sure you don't count any vote twice. Who knows.

 

[DMoogle]

Added poll

Added poll.

Don't post simply "yay" or "nay." Your names will be publicly displayed in the poll results.

 

[dandan]

imo you should also not count someone who just got here, like a guy on his first posts which is out of the community. i think this is something the community should do for itself. just my opinion though.

 

[asianaussie]

i agree with dandan this is for the smash64 section and as such only those affected should be counted

thanks for the poll though

 

[dandan]

that's why i think the poll is less effective, and the yay nay version is better, it is not like someone has something to hide and this has to be an anonymous poll.

unless you can check all the voters later and discard those who should not affect it. i do not know if you can do it with the poll system here though.

 

[DMoogle]

Your names are publicly displayed in the poll results. Click the number, and you can see who voted for what.

 

[Glöwworm]

i think his stance is valid

hes basically saying that the theory is good but he doubts the execution

his first stance was "nay" so i was happy to see he changed his mind but then i saw "for now" so that kind of threw me off. hence the "either you believe it will work or not" because of his previous choice.

 

[asianaussie]

i would like people to post reasoning for their choice

this includes those who have already posted, please edit your posts if you have time and write a sentence or two on why you posted yay or nay.

 

[DevMBC]

Yay

 

[Deleted member]

yay.

There are important decisions about rules and such which still need to be made. I don't care about the whole "making smash 64 legitimate" crap (I doubt having a backroom will do anything for that), but it will help to make rule making more efficient.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

i would like people to post reasoning for their choice

this includes those who have already posted, please edit your posts if you have time and write a sentence or two on why you posted yay or nay.

I actually believe a backroom would be beneficial to the 64 community. There are many cases where something (e.g. Stage legality, specific rules, etc.) is important to discuss... However, when we have everyone discuss it, we go nowhere. Having a backroom to make these decisions would allow more to be done in that sense.

However, general discussion should not be allowed in the backroom. It should remain for only rule discussion or something similar and not turn into a noob-free chatroom. As long as that doesn't happen, I think a backroom could be beneficial.

The main con people list is that people will feel elitist if they are in, or shunned if they are out. Only the people who know the game very well (at the highest level of play) should be in the backroom. If the BR members are chosen correctly, even I should not be in it (though I would love to be, there are many more people who know much more than I do). If people are not chosen, it simply means that others know the game better, whether they are better or not (lame example, but an example nonetheless... someone who plays only Kirby and does very well should not be allowed in, as they don't know much about anything not Kirby related).

There's my arguments, for both sides.

for now? you either believe it will work or you don't

It's... kinda hard to explain (sorry cheeseball, I didn't say it because I doubt the execution).

Basically, summarized up, I do think that if we do this properly, a backroom can be very benificial. There are several cons that can make this not turn out well... but most of them are either very small, or can be controlled. The main things I see that can cause huge problems with the making of a backroom is... well... people (in or out of the br) thinking people in the BR are better than those who are not in it.

Here's my thoughts: 90% of the regulars who post here know basically everything regular noobs know, plus some (worded differently, there is very little noobs know that we don't). However, going one step above that, probably less than 10% of the people who post here know basically everything the rest of us know, plus some. I think that the best backroom we can have consists only of those 10% (and, say, a character rep for each character or something).

The problem with this is... if someone is really good at this game, but does not fit the top 10%, they may feel shunned, or if, say, person A is really good with Samus and thinks he is better than person B (beats him at every Samus ditto), but person B gets the nod... for the most part, we can hope that people understand that others may simply know more about the game than that... but there's always those few people that... well, you know. If someone does complain quite a bit about this... then... well... we may have problems in the 64 community.

Basically, that's my main issue. Some people may feel shunned, resulting in a minor split in the community (which may grow over time). However, hopefully people are understanding enough such that this doesn't happen.

So... basically, the reason why I said "for now" is that at the moment, I do believe that it will be benificial, but... there are a few minor issues that may come up (the one above is only one example, but it's, in my opinion, probably the most worrisome example). I do believe though that we can work this out properly and have a successful backroom.



And... not that it matters for now, but I do have ideas on how to determine who should be eligible to be in the backroom. If this does go through, I'll suggest these ideas when we start discussing on who should be eligible.

 

[King Funk]

Add me for "yay". Already voted too.

I think that, with a backroom, the 64 scene will indeed be taken more seriously by the Melee and Brawl communities. And a scene that's taken seriously usually attracts a lot more new players. The thing is, smash 64 has become the most accessible of all smash games because virtually anyone can play with each other thanks to the efficient online system that has been developed throughout the years. You just need the right emulator with the right settings, and a USB controller, and you're good to go. From my experience, I have become a much better player at 64 than the other two games because it's the only game I get to play with very good players just by clicking a few times with my computer mouse. For Melee and Brawl, I basically have to travel out of country just to play a good level of players. And I'm sure many people can relate to this. In my honest opinion, the backroom would really boost the number of people joining in.

Some people say it would create elitism. Maybe, but then, will it interrupt the BRoomers discussions with the general community of players? No, or at least it shouldn't. I'm sure the members of the BR would still debate issues with everyone else because they are also players and should be respected as such. The BR will be used mainly to take decisions, because it is far easier to take decisions with 20-30 people rather than 200.

Also, I think a BR would create a reward system for players who are able to debate issues in a meaningful and efficient way. If someone in the general discussion turns out to have knowledge and debating skills that stand out (as well as considered a good player), he could be invited in the Back Room for his good contributions.

 

[Agony]

Yay.
Although I believe a BR would have a huge downsize on the community (it boosts elitism), it is true that, having never had a backroom, we don't know how big the pro's are face to this/these con's.
I say let's try, and if it doesn't work, we'll delete it.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i want to say YAY but i also want to say NAY, I think having a backroom would help for only certain people, meaning the ones that are allowed in it, i understand that more professionial smashers would like to have their own section to discuss teir lists,character matchups etc. but there are plenty of other people who have good ideas. You're kind of setting a bias line between who gets in and who doesnt.

if i were to vote YAY, it is only because i would like to see smash 64 get more reputation and hopefully we can get more people on our board.

edit: i'm going to say YAY because i want to attract more people to this board.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Said Yes. Hope it works out

 

[NixxxoN]

YES if we have an own section...

Otherwise I'd vote no.

 

[L1ON]

YES if we have an own section...

Otherwise I'd vote no.

I felt the same way, but any progress for us is good progress. If we can have a backroom, I'm sure we can have our own section; if we can have our own section, I'm sure we can have a backroom... Let's just take any development we can haha.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Indeed, We all should know by know that getting our own section is more waiting on when the Admins finish sorting out how they are planning to "edit" the front page.

Until then all we can do is work with what we can...this is a step forward..and i think we should take it :o

 

[Thino]

I said yes

 

[Glöwworm]

just looked at the people who voted no; who is F8AL

also, i'm sad to see isai the one who i think is ideal to lead this, voted no.

 

[The Star King]

Who is DevMBC? Who is Sempiternity? You're going to get unknowns in any poll.

 

[Glöwworm]

obviously but if i remember correctly, somebody brought it up that in this poll, they wanted only people from within the active community. that's why people made a fuss about the poll until DMoogle mentioned it's a public poll, meaning you can see who voted.

 

[Battlecow]

I vote Nay, and my reasons have already been explained

 

[linkoninja]

So depending on THIS poll we're gonna have a backroom or not?

 

[Glöwworm]

So depending on THIS poll we're gonna have a backroom or not?

it's not a given but if you read the OP, the purpose of this is to better organize what the community thinks.

 

[ballin4life]

Conditional yes - only if the posts will be visible to all.

Otherwise no.

 

[Mahie]

Conditional yes - only if the posts will be visible to all.

Otherwise no.

As in everybody can read, but not post ?

 

[ballin4life]

As in everybody can read, but not post ?

Yes. Having the incredibly secretive back room will be bad for discussion and is just a silly idea. I also would trust back room decisions a lot more if I could actually see the debate behind it.

 

[Mahie]

Yes. Having the incredibly secretive back room will be bad for discussion and is just a silly idea. I also would trust back room decisions a lot more if I could actually see the debate behind it.

Doesn't that just mean everything will just end up being discussed in the Social thread ?

 

[Glöwworm]

Yes. Having the incredibly secretive back room will be bad for discussion and is just a silly idea. I also would trust back room decisions a lot more if I could actually see the debate behind it.

go on the first page of this thread and read the "Presented arguments FOR the establishment of a backroom" portion of the OP. Look at it until you see my quote; tell me if you agree.

 

[ballin4life]

go on the first page of this thread and read the "Presented arguments FOR the establishment of a backroom" portion of the OP. Look at it until you see my quote; tell me if you agree.

I agree with the quote but I want more than just "public polls" or whatever. It should be open to public viewing.

Doesn't that just mean everything will just end up being discussed in the Social thread ?

You mean the backroom decisions will end up getting discussed in the social thread? Is there something wrong with that?