The SSB64 Backroom: Yea or Nay

[ballin4life]

If that's not the point then what is the point?

 

[asianaussie]

Cheeseball, 85% of your argument, IMO, depends on the assumption that a BR will get us more players and more respect. Think really hard about it for a second. Will it? I don't think it will. I don't think a single person will come over and play smash seriously because boom has a "Smash 64 BRoom member" tag under his name. Don't get me wrong, I want our scene to grow as much as you do (and that's saying something) but a BRoom is not the way. It's not even worth trying. All it'll do is make our forum slightly more exclusive and slightly less fun.

I might be blinded by my hope, so I'd like someone to tell me...how exactly will getting a backroom hurt our chances of getting a bigger scene? While I'll admit (hell it's a 99% certainty) that a backroom won't double or triple our community size overnight, any players, especially those interested in getting competitive, are a welcome addition to the community.

While I most definitely see your point and the reasoning behind it, my reasoning is just 'hey, it couldn't hurt anyone, why not give it a shot?'. To be honest, we haven't done anything to advertise or promote, and even a minor thing like this is better than nothing (and of course I support getting our own section but fsr I don't think that's coming around soon...).

I’m glad you see my point, but I think this seriously needs to be addressed. It’s a major issue with a public backroom.

I can't see a simple solution with the idea of a backroom discussion thread that will please everybody. Instead we should really address why we need the public backroom and work from there. At the moment there are a couple of things that make the public backroom viable.

1) The high 'good player to scrub' ratio, allowing pseudo-meaningful discussion to take place in the general forum. This is almost completely due to the combination of easy-to-access 'training grounds' (kaillera) and the small scene in general.
2) Ego issues. There are too many players who have valuable input to get into the backroom, and I have absolute confidence that if said backroom is established, those who don't get in will be quietly butthurt. We don't want our elitists being all cranky, do we?

These reasons are why a general discussion thread is viable - it cushions the ego of those without BRoom posting rights, and since there are good players who might not be good posters, may facilitate the occasionaly gem of input that can be quietly taken into consideration in the actual BRoom. Again, my 'proving grounds' description is applicable.

Very good point, I definitely needed to be reminded about the purpose of a backroom. HOWEVER, in a debate available to everybody’s input, those top quality posts are going to be the ones with the most influence anyways. The difference is, everybody is allowed an attempt to persuade others with quality posting, without any need for prior approval. What if a great player who rarely posts (of which there are many on kaillera), who decides that he wants to share his valuable input? Should we stop him from doing so?

This may not be true. I'm sorry to say this, but a complete noob with no information might take a formally written, formally punctuated post with believable but misinformed information, as opposed to, say, s2j's all lower case posts that actually contain good info. I would like to point out that a backroom discussion thread would help solve this, even if there are problems associated with said thread.

I’m not talking about noobs trying to spark a debate about a dumb topic that everyone else is just going to laugh at, like your examples. I’m talking about noobs posting dumb opinions on important issues that actually matter, i.e. The Hyrule Neutrality thread. Unlike the examples you gave, these important discussions are where crushing these dumb posts actually matters.

This is an incredibly difficult-to-address issue that has no simple answer. The tornadoes are both a boon and a curse. The **** tent is both an equaliser and overpowered. The only wrong opinions are completely false things like 'the tornadoes are totally predictable'. Crushing these opinions doesn't do anything. In addition, if lots of noobs believe the tornadoes are broken and spout awful reasons for this (i can't stay on the ground and be safe because the tornado grabs you off the ground, etc), that will give one side an unfair advantage in the 'noobs-to-be-crushed' category (lol).

I definitely agree that not everyone is equal in knowledge, and some opinions are better than others. Despite this, I believe that everyone should be given an opportunity from the start to post a good post explaining why they believe in their opinions, instead of requiring them being approved as good posters, and shunning those who haven’t been deemed so. Who knows, maybe N3ssMa1n15437 has valuable input on a certain topic, even though he may have posted only silly things in the past.

i object to the use of nessmainw/e, because my user is also 'noun-noun-numbers'

Again, backroom discussion thread. It solves lots and lots of problems, even if it has problems of its own. Use it as proving grounds, as I've stated.

That’s not really what I meant. Using me as an example again…I have strong opinions on many match-ups, but I’m just not very good at playing Super Theory Bros. and expressing why I feel a certain way about a matchup. It’s not lack of knowledge (I like to think I’m quite knowledgeable about this game), it’s just me personally (hard to explain). Does this mean I’m unfit for the backroom? Maybe, but that’s excluding me from giving my input on other topics I can contribute greatly to.

Valid point and I can't really argue against it. The only courses of action I can think of to remedy this are A) invite like ten billion people into the backroom because they might have valuable input on, say, DK vs Samus on mushtoom kingdom, B) let those people tell BRoomers directly via PM/chat, leading to annoyance all round, or C) use the proposed backroom discussion thread in the hope that a bored BRoomer will spot their valuable input.

At first I was confused and was going to say that those players aren’t going to be allowed in the backroom anyway. But then I realized you meant a backroom available for the public to read; that’s how “scrubs and competitive players” are going to learn. However, what’s to prevent them from learning from posts of good players outside of the backroom? Why stop them from asking questions directly in the thread?

Go through the matchup thread. That's the advice I used to give tier-list questioning nubs. Then I tried to go through the thread. While I enjoyed it (being a theorycraft kind of guy), it took bloody ages, and I couldn't find a specific matchup anywhere. If we have a backroom, it'll automatically become more organised and easy to read, especially if we have somebody cataloguing the actual information in the OP.

Briefly going to address the 4 reasons on why we have a really small community. In fact they're all very valid, I'll probably just add a couple.

1: I have to correct you here. Not a single large tournament (ie APEX, good **** german, etc etc) will feature 64. It will be a mere sideshow, and will stay that way for eons. I can't do anything about that, I live in that cast-off tail of the world called Australia, where even the brawl tourneys attract relatively tiny numbers of people (not to mention final year of school stuff). If anything is to happen, Mango, M2K, Armada, Zhu, SS and all of their pro buddies will have to dump melee and brawl completely and move to 64.

I can't sue you for being optimistic, optimism is the primary drive behind me wanting a backroom

2: Poor graphics, the 'dated' label, low character range, complete lack of single player viability, I can see why people like it, and we can't change this.

3: Vicious circle. Next.

4: I should do a thread about our own section. Then, everyone who votes 'no' in the poll will be publicly shot.

Also I already said that the backroom won't have much to discuss unless we have a bi-weekly featured matchup or something (which would be cool imo), and that it'll be an image thing before a competition thing. I'm still pressing full steam for a backroom.

 

[mr yo]

NO

but as far as i can see, the mayority prefers it...so i would like to ask WHO would decide who gets in or out of the backroom....couse i would like to be in, i think i have what it takes, im a good player, i have a very extensive knowledge of the game i always try to read everything before posting, and i try not to post anything without content or that has already being said.

thanks

 

[asianaussie]

normally self-nomination is automatic disqualification

but in this forum egotism and elitism get you places

if it does happen (the backroom) probably some sort of proving process, because public polls and the like suck (outsiders coming in, people recruiting friends just to vote for them)

 

[rpotts]

NO

but as far as i can see, the mayority prefers it...so i would like to ask WHO would decide who gets in or out of the backroom....couse i would like to be in, i think i have what it takes, im a good player, i have a very extensive knowledge of the game i always try to read everything before posting, and i try not to post anything without content or that has already being said.

thanks

key word : try

 

[NixxxoN]

Self nomination is dumb because besides some rare exceptions, everybody would like to get into the backroom
If we get a backroom, I can see two possible scenarios:

1) Backroom with very very few people and in general empty unactive forum, and a lot of people raging because they couldn't enter
2) Backroom with a lot of people, with the most active people, the good and knowledgeable players, mostly everyone who deserves to be there for several reasons, and basically the backroom is similar as the general discussion but without the few casual posters who come and go and without the n00biest players

 

[asianaussie]

Scenario 1 is unlikely, the number of regular posters here is in the double digits, you know >_>, not to mention the majority of posters who won't make it understand that they're not good enough to get into the backroom due to either incredibly poor post quality or lack of game knowledge, or that there are just better candidates...

Scenario 2 should never happen so long as there are basic criteria for entering the backroom...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

give a mostly online group that has a mad ego more ego.

Nay.

 

[firo]

I would vote yes as I think there is legitimate uses for a backroom, but I feel it is already enough trouble trying to have an effective forum with this few members. If the community grows, then maybe, but right now I feel it will be more trouble than it is worth, so nay for now.

 

[Battlecow]

More like public BATHroom amirite? OLOLOLOLOLOL

Had to get that out of my system.

Also, nitpicky spelling-formalization: Usually, one would write "Yea or Nay", not "Yay or Nay", unless one was trying to make a bad pun.

 

[Blade689]

I like the idea of a back room for ssb64, but I have to side with Ballin4Life on the idea thats its viewable by all. If that's not possible....... could you apply to view it or something at least? I think information shouldn't ever be hidden from people who seek it.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

(read the last few posts... on a different computer for a very short time).

Seems like the main problem with the BR is who will be allowed into the backroom. I do have an idea that could easily determine who should be allowed or not. Hopefully I have not said this already... well whatever lol.

I believe that people in the backroom should be the ones that know the most about the game, and can give a good lengthy argument on a topic. My idea on how to determine who gets in is by having a few topics for people to completely analyze as deep as they can. Say... for example, a commonly played matchup, a rarely played matchup, and some remote topic. Each are sent privately (hidden) to someone, who, when it is all said and done, reveals all of them at once (therefore, people are unable to take ideas from other people's posts). By doing this, half the people will (hopefully) realize that other people just know way more about the game than they do. As far as the actual choosing of the BR, those who have the best arguments or most detailed points (more detail the better) will get the nod. Therefore, no bias is used in creating the BR, and the people who were rejected were rejected for a reason.

My 2 cents.

Though the more I think about it, the more I'm neutral for a BR. I think it would be cool if it happened, but I think the advantages and disadvantages even out... so whether it happens or not, it probably won't change the 64 recruiting much.

 

[Glöwworm]

(read the last few posts... on a different computer for a very short time).

Seems like the main problem with the BR is who will be allowed into the backroom. I do have an idea that could easily determine who should be allowed or not. Hopefully I have not said this already... well whatever lol.

I believe that people in the backroom should be the ones that know the most about the game, and can give a good lengthy argument on a topic. My idea on how to determine who gets in is by having a few topics for people to completely analyze as deep as they can. Say... for example, a commonly played matchup, a rarely played matchup, and some remote topic. Each are sent privately (hidden) to someone, who, when it is all said and done, reveals all of them at once (therefore, people are unable to take ideas from other people's posts). By doing this, half the people will (hopefully) realize that other people just know way more about the game than they do. As far as the actual choosing of the BR, those who have the best arguments or most detailed points (more detail the better) will get the nod. Therefore, no bias is used in creating the BR, and the people who were rejected were rejected for a reason.

My 2 cents.

Though the more I think about it, the more I'm neutral for a BR. I think it would be cool if it happened, but I think the advantages and disadvantages even out... so whether it happens or not, it probably won't change the 64 recruiting much.

What about good players who can't quite express their ideas; say language barrier? Do those players get in? Also, how are tournament results going to affect the recruiting decisions? Will they be factored in into the decision process?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

43 to 28.

sounds like we're going to get a backroom.

[PARTY TIME!!]

 

[ciaza]

We still have to decide from those who voted whose vote should actually count.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

We still have to decide from those who voted whose vote should actually count.

....alright.

 

[ciaza]

+ This is also only a general indication of people's stances I think we still have a few kink's to discuss.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

+ This is also only a general indication of people's stances I think we still have a few kink's to discuss.

I know that, it won't show up next morning, these things take time, we have to discuss who is getting in, how it will be operated, etc.

I'm not the best smasher (dually noted i am very rusty from a 2 year break after NBK disbanded), but i am very good, and i have plenty of general insight and eagerness to discuss more "advanced" things.

and thats where my pet peeve is, there are alot of people that have that eagerness and general insight..

i know it's a backroom; best smashers only, but thats my only complaint.

 

[Surri-Sama]

It's also not as simple as "yay got more votes...lets do a Broom"

this is a opinion gathering thread, o JV can determine if we really need a Broom

He already understands the concept of it, and knows how they work...so really it's more about how our members act and communicate...more then if 50%+ want it

If there is a need for it...we will have it...if there is not, we wont

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

It's also not as simple as "yay got more votes...lets do a Broom"

this is a opinion gathering thread, o JV can determine if we really need a Broom

He already understands the concept of it, and knows how they work...so really it's more about how our members act and communicate...more then if 50%+ want it

If there is a need for it...we will have it...if there is not, we wont

I suppose.

i found something interesting on the vote polls:

it seems that some people changed their minds about it..and that something that kind of was a "wow" was that malva voted against it.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Naw Isai is odd so it only figures he said nay...

the bigger thing is that we have quite a few people who have nothing to do with anything voting on it

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

it's not that odd really, people want their two cents in.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I dont think its odd but its definitely non constructive to finding out the smash64s sections opinion

 

[Frogles]

backroom just makes us look like a bunch of elitist jerks. we dont need to divide the community to have a discussion on random matchups or stages.

having a different color for our names would be cool though :suess:

(nay)

 

[Surri-Sama]

It wont divide the members, thats a bad theory that has no grounds.

What we do need is to progress ...and Broom will give us progression through creating better info for smash64, and it will lure some players in....

dont say it wont...even just having a topic about making a Broom brings people in from all over the boards


Note: Lol at the little master hand icon by the Ike symbol xD

 

[Frogles]

It wont divide the members, thats a bad theory that has no grounds.

maybe not but it'll exclude people from reading/posting in discussion threads for...what reason? oh no reason? K

What we do need is to progress ...and Broom will give us progression through creating better info for smash64, and it will lure some players in....

the community already made its own tier list and rules with everything out in the open. booms hyrule thread didnt seem to do that bad either. i think we just dont have **** to talk about.

dont say it wont...even just having a topic about making a Broom brings people in from all over the boards

it brought in like...3 randoms i havent seen post here before. nothing to write home about surri bro. we get randoms in random threads all the time. of course we'll get one or two more in threads labeled "sticky" or "important".

i just dont see why we'd need a broom to discuss things we can already discuss here.

Note: Lol at the little master hand icon by the Ike symbol xD

THIS IS NO TIME FOR LAUGHING

 

[WOTG]

I was originally going to vote Yay because I somewhat see why people want a backroom, but then to think about it we don't actually need one. The main reason why people want a backroom is because they don't like seeing "stupid!!!!" post in serious discussion threads, like its really that hard to ignore. I also find it funny how most of the people who voted Yay are not even going to get in by a popular vote

 

[NixxxoN]

Hey cheeseball, Im not "confused", i think it made it pretty clear, I dont want a backroom unless
a) we have the full own section
and b) its viewable for all

So its more like... yes and no at the same time (lol) or put me at Yes (with conditions) but not confused =P

 

[ballin4life]

What is it with all the "privilege only" forums on smashboards? It's not just back rooms, but also the debate hall and its subforum.

Why do I have to jump through hoops just to make a serious post in the Taxation thread over there?

It seems like the argument always is "Oh but we'll get idiots posting in our threads if we don't close them off". Why does no other internet forum I know of have this problem then? Isn't that what moderators are for anyway?

 

[Surri-Sama]

I think you're all forgetting that this is a public forum, with casual and competitive players...some focused and wanting to be "truly constructive" , while there are others who want to contribute...but really are not fit for the situation

one things for sure though, with all those players, you're going to get better info if you rally the best, and give them more focused priorities ...this is no egocentric its just the truth...

who decides the rules for most major events in the world...not everyone thats for sure

and this isn't excluding people from smash64...they are not useless or unwanted..but like most other things if you want to be a part of the committee that enforces and edits...you might have to do some work to do that...


We will always have an active social thread..and we will always have ego heads...the Broom isn't making or breaking either

 

[Battlecow]

It wont divide the members, thats a bad theory that has no grounds.

I'm afraid that I don't understand you, good sir. One forum with good people and another with not-as-good people? Sounds pretty divisive to me.

Oh, and your grammar is grounds for dismissal.

 

[Surri-Sama]

lol it is...most people understand what i say though...some times xD

i have a book written on the other back room thread thought if you are interested i n a good read...grammar failz and all :o

 

[Battlecow]

Read it. Good stuff.

Moar ellipses pl0x.

 

[asianaussie]

well if nothing at all changes then we will forever languor under the heading of 'non-competitive' game to everyone who doesn't post regularly

and the backroom seems like the most likely thing to change at the moment

let us get a backroom and 8 or 9 subforums and then a section will come by necessity :D

 

[Battlecow]

Nah. JV said they were "considering" a section right? Let them do that; it'll bring in a few noobs, at least. A backroom is not necessary and would be bad for the community.

/rehash

AA, pleeeeeeeease change the thread title to "Yea or Nay".

 

[UnholyWeapon]

Absolutely Yay.

 

[ciaza]

AA, pleeeeeeeease change the thread title to "Yea or Nay".

But if he did so we would technically have 0 "Yea"s and however many "Nay"s.

It's a trap! don't change it. =P

That aside giving the Backroom a chance seems logical to me and if it really starts screwing everything up in the community ask JV to delete and re-think things.

 

[Sempiternity]

Who is DevMBC? Who is Sempiternity? You're going to get unknowns in any poll.

Haha, I didn't vote, because I am an "unknown". Hell, I'm just reading your post now since I didn't bother reading this thread in the first place.

 

[The Star King]

I have zero issue with "unknowns" voting, I was just responding to Glowworm.

 

[Korrupshen]

Get the backroom now cause we might not get another chance, that's all I can say.