edit: I read your post too, ShootingStar. Cookie Pl0x.
wall of text that badly badly badly needs to be put into paragraphs >_>
Yeah sorry about that LOL, I just kind of typed it all in one sitting on the fly. Even I find it painful to read.
1) Backroom is dumb if we have a backroom topic discussion thread for others anyway
1) I see your point. The thread would be *intended* to let people discuss the decisions and discussion of the BRoomers, nothing more, nothing less. This is, of course, a hopelessly naive view. People will attempt to indirectly affect discussion by posting their opinions, and some might even attack the decisions directly. I won't take this further unless we actually get a BRoom.
I’m glad you see my point, but I think this seriously needs to be addressed. It’s a major issue with a public backroom.
2) Not enough dumb people to warrant a separate backroom for discussion
2) Consider what a backroom is for. It's for those who are markedly more skilled, intelligent and experienced than others to discuss and make decisions about competitive things. To maintain a good backroom, it's imperative that you make the threads full of intelligent and thought-out posts. Getting rid of dumb posters isn't the point: we are looking to collect the *best* opinions. You imply we are looking to get rid of that bottom 30% of poor posts. I say we are looking to isolate the top 15% of quality posts for all to see.
Very good point, I definitely needed to be reminded about the purpose of a backroom. HOWEVER, in a debate available to everybody’s input, those top quality posts are going to be the ones with the most influence anyways. The difference is, everybody is allowed an attempt to persuade others with quality posting, without any need for prior approval. What if a great player who rarely posts (of which there are many on kaillera), who decides that he wants to share his valuable input? Should we stop him from doing so?
3) Noobs being completely crushed by good posts strengthen those posts
3) It's true, but to be honest this is a bit of a farfetched point. The vast majority of points that need to be addressed like this are things like 'Link is good against Fox' or 'Heart Containers are balanced'. These points don't need strengthening, and if those debating are good at the game, they won't feel the point are any stronger.
I’m not talking about noobs trying to spark a debate about a dumb topic that everyone else is just going to laugh at, like your examples. I’m talking about noobs posting dumb opinions on important issues that actually matter, i.e. The Hyrule Neutrality thread. Unlike the examples you gave, these important discussions are where crushing these dumb posts actually matters.
4) Equality is a priority, we shouldn't seclude people
4) That's true. On the other hand, the BRoom is not an 'end-all' to all competitive problems. The unfortunate truth is that not everyone is equal in terms of knowledge, and some opinions are most definitely better than others. It's fine if one acknowledges it, but those who suck and don't know it won't be phased by the BRoom decisions. The backroom won't cut out your opinion, it simply offers one that is collectively recognised. This was also the primary reasoning behind the backroom discussion thread.
I definitely agree that not everyone is equal in knowledge, and some opinions are better than others. Despite this, I believe that everyone should be given an opportunity from the start to post a good post explaining why they believe in their opinions, instead of requiring them being approved as good posters, and shunning those who haven’t been deemed so. Who knows, maybe N3ssMa1n15437 has valuable input on a certain topic, even though he may have posted only silly things in the past.
5) If I'm a BRoomer and I only know some matchups I shouldn't be expected to discuss those I don't know
5) That's fine. If you're a backroomer without knowledge of Ness's or Luigi's matchups, you can learn too. Don't quote me on this, but being a BRoomer does mean you have to contribute to every single discussion in the backroom.
That’s not really what I meant. Using me as an example again…I have strong opinions on many match-ups, but I’m just not very good at playing Super Theory Bros. and expressing why I feel a certain way about a matchup. It’s not lack of knowledge (I like to think I’m quite knowledgeable about this game), it’s just me personally (hard to explain). Does this mean I’m unfit for the backroom? Maybe, but that’s excluding me from giving my input on other topics I can contribute greatly to.
In fact, with timezones all over the place, addressing every little issue becomes nigh-impossible.
Wut?
The backroom isn't just a place for good players to argue and show off, it's also somewhere where scrubs and competitive players to learn things for competitive use.
At first I was confused and was going to say that those players aren’t going to be allowed in the backroom anyway. But then I realized you meant a backroom available for the public to read; that’s how “scrubs and competitive players” are going to learn. However, what’s to prevent them from learning from posts of good players outside of the backroom? Why stop them from asking questions directly in the thread?
Since you also brought up the growth you believe a backroom will bring… A backroom is only going to attract people who had previously thought that 64 didn’t have much of a competitive scene, and were convinced otherwise by the presence by a backroom. However, from what I’ve seen on the Brawl/Melee sections, people are aware of the 64 scene’s existence, they just don’t really play it for other reasons, reasons that a backroom will not address. This is what I perceive to be the main reasons to why the 64 scene isn’t growing that much:
1. Not enough non-online tournaments featuring Smash64. Imagine that you are somebody who isn’t aware of/doesn’t want to play online, but you WANT to play Smash64 at tournaments. However, 64 is rarely featured in tournaments, so you’re stuck being unable to play at all. TOs have little incentive to include 64, and I doubt a backroom is going to sway them when 64 is only getting like ~10 entrants every time. Of course, the solution to this is to have more 64 tournaments. I think Darth Rancorous has demonstrated that TOs CAN be convinced with a little prodding… From what I’ve seen, 64 is being included in more and more large tourneys, such as Apex 2, The Airship, Genesis 2 (sequel to possibly the most hype Melee tournament of all time), and high-profile players such as Mango are beginning to play it. Sue me for being optimistic.
2. They simply don’t like Smash64 as a game for various reasons. I know many of you are going to be unable to comprehend this, and be like, “WTF?! How can you POSSIBLY not like this game?!” Believe it or not, it’s true; I’ve seen people say they don’t like the game, for whatever reason. Can’t really do anything about this =/
3. The community is too small for their taste. Believe it or not, some people will play a game only for the community (many people do this for Brawl). A backroom isn’t going to attract many new people for the other reasons I’ve mentioned, and is going to divide the community.
4. The Smash64 section looks dead to them, subtly tucked under General Gaming. Well, we already have a Competitive Events section, so that should show them that we have a competitive scene… I’ll admit a backroom will help with this issue, but I think it’s the wrong way to go about it. We shouldn’t be trying to create a backroom if it’s not the backroom itself that will benefit the community, but the few newcomers that are going to be attracted to the community. Should we create a forum for every character, even though there is no need for such, just to make ourselves seem equal to the other smash communities? We should be attracting newcomers with things that are actually going to benefit the community, like more tournaments, or OUR OWN SECTION. Our own section will work much better than a backroom at making the 64 section seem appealing, equally important to other smash games, and a community that isn’t dead, that’s worth being a part of; and our section will bring zero drawbacks.
One final note: This is a baseless argument, so feel free to write it off/laugh at me for it… But I can’t shake the feeling that after we create a new ruleset/possibly a new matchup chart or tier list, there isn’t going to be much to discuss. Maybe it’s just me.
