The Slight Disadvantage Match Up Discussion FEAT. Marth

[Charoo]

The reason I created this thread was for two things mainly:

1. To stimulate the fox board by making people share a good amount of opinion all at once instead of a slowly weekly update discussion. It also helps them think more about each match up and stages to go and ban

2. To compile all the people's opinion and then discuss the outcome of it.

There's more but those r the main reasons. So let's begin. Base on the match up everyone posted, these are the one that pretty much every1 agreed on or closes to it

Major Advantage
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf
Samus
Bowser
Ike
Jigglypuff

Slight Advantage
R.O.B.
Toon Link
Wolf
Lucario
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness

Neutral
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Donkey Kong
Peach
Zelda
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Lucas

Slight Disadvantage
Metaknight
Marth
Olimar
Kirby
Luigi

Major Disadvantage
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Sheik

This is roughly what I gather from every1. Of course, there were some distinct differences like TKD saying Ike is not MA while mostly every1 says it is and etc.

So lets look here real quick, we have 3 chars. that are MD: Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and Sheik. All really good vs us because they have something that can take us from 0 to death basically. Then lets look at the MA, all slow chars except Falcon. Why are we good vs them? Because we can run around them easily and do a lot of crazy stuff without much fear. Then the rest are all in between that.

I hope that while you guys were creating this, it maybe help u think about the match up a little more and perhaps even gave u some new ideas. Now, lets look at the stages.

In general, these stages were chosen as counter pick:

Final Destination
Halberd
Castle Siege
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat

bad stages are:
Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Battlefield

So on the first stage, generally we want FD. If they reset that then we go to Smashville. Of course, this isn't true for every match up but in general it is. Then, we try to counter pick them on one of those stages and ban them on one of these stages. Counter pick accordingly. You want low ceiling? Platforms? Big stages? Small stages? Avoid big ceiling? Avoid platforms? Think about it and stuff.

So, instead of discussing major disadvantage, we should discuss slight disadvantage. It's the ones that worry us the most usually. The goal is to make SD to N. If we can do that, then we're on the right path. The MD will have to come later. The MD are the hardest to fight but if we centralize all of our discussion on that, then all the other match up will get worst as the time goes on. So for now, hope that you don't fight them or bring out a secondary.

So, lets start shall we. It's time to revive the Fox boards and re-energize it. It's time for a change!

Let's discuss Slight Disadvantage. I want you guys to give strategies, tips, tricks, and what to do. Also, for stage discussion, you have to say one stage to reset, one stage to ban, two stage to go to during random and two stages to counter pick.

ex: Metaknight
reset: battlefield
ban: delfino
random stage select: final d first, smashville second
counterpick: castle siege, final destination

Good? Lets start with him first then since Mk is already begin discuss on another thread

MATCH UP DISCUSSION​

Marth

 

[SnowballBob33]

Trying to gather some information real quick so here's what I need:

put all these characters:

Meta Knight-SD Ban RC
Snake-SA avoid BF
Wario-N
Falco-N avoid japes
Diddy Kong-N avoid fd
King Dedede-N
Marth-SD
Mr. Game & Watch-N
Pikachu-MMMD
Olimar-SD
Ice Climbers-MD avoid fd
R.O.B.-SA
Kirby-SD
Lucario-N
Zero Suit Samus-N
Toon Link-SA
Pit-N
Donkey Kong-N
Peach-N
Luigi-SD
Fox
Wolf-SA
Sonic-N
Sheik-HD
Bowser-SA
Zelda-N
Pokémon Trainer-N
Ike-SA
Lucas-SD
Mario-N
Ness-N
Yoshi-N
Samus-SA
Jigglypuff-N
Captain Falcon-HA
Link-HA
Ganondorf-HA

into the following category:

huge advantage
slight advantage
neutral
slight disadvantage
major disadvantage

next to them, also put TWO stages you would take them to and one stage you ban from the following list of stages: Ban lylat

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes

This will help me very much and thank you for your time.

stuff in the quote

 

[RPK]

Trying to gather some information real quick so here's what I need:

put all these characters:
into the following category:

huge advantage

Samus
Ban: Battlefield
Counterpick: Halberd, Final Destination

Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Link
Ness

slight advantage
King Dedede
Donkey Kong
Pokémon Trainer (Except for Squirtle...Thats like slight advantage...tl;dr F*** Squirtle)
Captain Falcon
R.O.B.

Peach
Ban: Battlefield
Counterpick: FD, Halberd

Ike
Lucas

neutral

Snake
Ban: Battlefield
Counterpick: Halberd, FD

Wario

Diddy Kong
Ban: FD
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Halberd

Lucario
Sonic
Pit
Toon Link

Wolf
Ban: Pokemon Stadium1
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Lylat

Mario

slight disadvantage
Zelda

Meta Knight
Ban: Delfino Plaza
Counterpick: Halberd, FD

Falco
Ban: Jungle Japes
Counterpick: FD,

Marth
Ban: Battlefield
Counterpick: Halberd, Jungle Japes

Mr. Game & Watch
Ban: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: Halberd, FD

Yoshi
Ban: Final Destination
Counterpick: (Dont know...)

Olimar
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi

major disadvantage
Pikachu
Ban: FD
Counterpick: Smashville, Rainbow Cruise

Sheik

Ice Climbers
Ban: FD
Counter Picks: Brinstar, Delfino Plaza
Fox
Ban: Nothing
Counterpick: Nothing

next to them, also put TWO stages you would take them to and one stage you ban from the following list of stages:

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes

This will help me very much and thank you for your time.

Unfortunatly, I need more work on character match ups, and where to take them to and ban. Sorry I couldnt be of any more help.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Trying to gather some information real quick so here's what I need:

put all these characters:

Meta Knight
Snake
Wario
Falco
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Pikachu
Olimar
Ice Climbers
R.O.B.
Kirby
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong
Peach
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic
Sheik
Bowser
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer
Ike
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf

into the following category:

huge advantage
slight advantage
neutral
slight disadvantage
major disadvantage

next to them, also put TWO stages you would take them to and one stage you ban from the following list of stages:

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes

This will help me very much and thank you for your time.

Canm't really take the time out to help but i will in a few hours with the FULL answers

 

[Toronto Joe]

the ones i left blank i dont have enough experience to tell you,this is kinda based on preference really

huge advantage
Ganondorf go to FD,Halberg ban: delfino
Samus go to FD,Lylat ban:BF
Captain Falcon go to smashville,pk1 ban:lylat
Link go to Smashville,BF ban: FD
Bowser go to FD,RC ban:yoshis
Ike go to FD,Castle Seige ban:Delfino
Yoshi go to halberg,fd ban: BF

slight advantage
Jigglypuff go to bf,pk1 ban: japes
Wolf go to BF,frigate ban:lylat
Donkey Kong go to fd,rc ban:japes
King Dedede go to FD,SV ban:halberg

neutral
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Falco go to BF,RC ban:japes
Pokémon Trainer
Sonic go to BF,halberg ban:FD
Peach go to FD,Pk1 ban:frigate
Toon Link go to sv,castle seige ban:YI
Fox go to BF,SV ban:FD

slight disadvantage
Wario go to FD,BF ban:brinstar
Diddy Kong go to lylat,pk1 ban:fd
Marth go to FD,Pk1 ban:frigate
Olimar go to rc,frigate ban:FD
Snake go to BF,SV ban:delfino
Meta Knight go to FD,halberg ban:way too many to choose,this really depends on you
Zelda
Luigi
R.O.B. go to BF,smashville ban:fd
Pit
Kirby go to SV,BF ban:frigate
Lucario go to lylat,pk1 ban:yoshis

major disadvantage
Sheik go to brinstar,rc ban:fd
Mr. Game & Watch go to fd,sv ban:frigate
Zero Suit Samus go to BF,Halberg ban:lylat
Pikachu no point
Ice Climbers no point

 

[SnowballBob33]

Game and Watch is only major disadvantage on BF. ZSS is only a problem if you get dsmashed, which is easy to avoid. Snake is even. Lucas is slight disadvantage. Rob is even

 

[Toronto Joe]

Game and Watch is only major disadvantage on BF. ZSS is only a problem if you get dsmashed, which is easy to avoid. Snake is even. Lucas is slight disadvantage. Rob is even

i play Holy frequently and used to play Ally frequently when he was still in canada im pretty sure Fox is 55;45 vs Snake(only lowering it from 6/4 cause Ally is inhuman) and 6/4 vs Rob, GW is 65/35 imo kills early,out priortizes everything and edgeguards well......ZSS is debateable but even without the dsmash chain i feel she does well against Fox

 

[Sukai]

Huge Advantage on everyone.

Final Destination and Smashville.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I used to think the same thing about G&w until I wised up. Dsmash is techable so that is never a problem. When he buckets lasers there is way more lag than I ever realized, just run over and usmash for 17%. It's easier to avoid bair spam on larger stages.

The only way zss can catch you with dsmash is if you let her. Stay behind her or far away and you are good.

Snake is even because he can wreck you and you can wreck him. Both of you can/can't camp each other.

 

[Fenrir VII]

My two cents.

Fox Character Matchup Listing:

Huge Advantage

Samus
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Jigglypuff
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Jungle Japes

Captain Falcon
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Link
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Ganondorf
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Bowser
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Ike
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Slight Advantage

Wario
CP Stages: PS1, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Falco
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Jungle Japes

Olimar
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

R.O.B.
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Pokémon Trainer
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Lucario
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Zelda
CP Stages: Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Lucas
CP Stages: Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Mario
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Ness
CP Stages: Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Yoshi
CP Stages: Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

Sonic
CP Stages: Smashville, PS1
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Neutral

Snake
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield (although I don't mind the stage against Snakes, really)

Diddy Kong
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Castle Siege
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

King Dedede
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Smashville

Toon Link
CP Stages: Castle Siege, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Pit
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Castle Siege
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Donkey Kong
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Peach
CP Stages: Halberd, PS1
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Wolf
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Yoshi's Island

Slight Disadvantage

Meta Knight
CP Stages: Brinstar, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Marth
CP Stages: Halberd, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Mr. Game & Watch
CP Stages: Castle Siege, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Kirby
CP Stages: Brinstar, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Zero Suit Samus
CP Stages: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Luigi
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Huge Disadvantage

Pikachu
CP Stages: Brinstar, Smashville (Halberd might be a better choice...)
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Ice Climbers
CP Stages: Brinstar, Halberd
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Sheik
CP Stages: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon
Ban Stage: Battlefield



Basically, FD is a very good utility stage pick, esp. against lower tiers.

Brinstar is great for messing up normal stage games, giving Fox a nice movement set, and stopping locks.

Orpheon is a great pick against characters with good recoveries that HAVE to snap to the ledge... any ending lag on upB, or tether characters are hurt here.

Castle Siege is amazing for Fox, imo... really nice level spacing for movement, and it stops camping quite well, while still allowing you to refill your moves on the 2nd transformation.

Battlefield and Smashville are pretty matchup-based... they both have uses, but they can also really hurt Fox.

Yoshi's... I just really don't like the stage that much... it messes with my Fox in really weird ways.

I never used Rainbow Cruise because it's not really legal most places, so I'm not to sure about it... I know cgs can insta-death you there, though, just by landing a grab, then throwing at the last minute... pretty often, too...




ALSO, anybody posting in this thread should copy my formatting, or make something better... mine took a while to fix it up, and I think it's a pretty clear way to list a WHOLE bunch of data...otherwise, this thread will be really hard to read.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

im a lazy S-O-B, so i cant spend the time needed to make a post for this.

but this is a LOT of good info to have and i have no idea why we didnt do this a while ago, well maybe we did but its burried now -.-

 

[Red Arremer]

Since Fenrir already answered most of it, one thing:
Ban Brinstar against Wario.

Brinstar is awful vs. Wario. <_<

 

[TKD]

Champ's request

I'm willing to help. Some of this is only from my experience though, for example I may simply not know the Olimar match-up.

I'm too lazy/inexperienced to name stages because you'll usually pick the same ones. Platforms vs characters you can combo or juggle. Neutrals are good. "OK" stages may slightly remove advantage from Fox.

Good stages:
Battlefield - juggles
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise - juggles
Smashville
Castle Siege
Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

OK stages:
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Halberd
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon

Bad stages:
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes

Huge advantage
Ganondorf
Samus
Captain Falcon
Link
Jigglypuff
Bowser
R.O.B.
Donkey Kong
King Dedede
Fox

Slight advantage
Yoshi
Sonic
Lucas
Ike
Mario
Lucario
Ness
Fox

Neutral
Wolf
Kirby
Luigi
Toon Link
Pokémon Trainer
Pit
Peach
Meta Knight
Snake
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game & Watch

Slight disadvantage
Falco*
Marth*
Wario*
Zero Suit Samus
Fox

Major disadvantage
Olimar*
Ice Climbers
Fox

Switch character
Zelda
Pikachu
Sheik
Fox

* May be better for Fox (I have little/no exp)

Huge Advantage

Ike
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Delfino

There's a good Ike player in my region and I don't think Fox beats that character by much.

Slight Advantage

Wario
CP Stages: PS1, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

Falco
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Jungle Japes

Olimar
CP Stages: Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination
Ban Stage: Battlefield

This gives me hope =)

Fox would be top tier without the dumb stuff sheik and chu can do

 

[Zephil]

lol at fox in every area except neutral TKD

 

[TKD]

I'll explain some match-ups

- R.O.B. is horrible against Fox because he's a big, mid weight target that's easy to shield-poke
- Donkey Kong is horrible vs Fox because of SH buffer Fair, is a breeze to juggle AND combo, is edge-guardable and has no projectile to avoid approaching
- King Dedede is very bad vs Fox because Fox can out-camp him, and he makes for a very effective edge-guard since his recovery is horrendous

- Ike is weird. He's hard, but Fox can sort of have better control in the match
- Lucario isn't able to become strong each time Fox is able to land an Usmash KO at good %. He's also edge-guardable for damage and is overall not amazing

- Kirby gets camped like crazy. He's a slow character. He's also quite light. Rolling works vs Kirby. I forgot I was told that this is a good match-up for Fox.
- Meta Knight is forced to approach by blasters so Fox doesn't need to. Fox also runs faster and fast-falls much quicker allowing him to run away easily. Fox has quick enough moves to punish Meta Knight's short cool-down periods. Also Meta Knight's not very hard to shield-poke.
- Snake is tough...but I've heard this match-up's even enough times. Snake can be juggled and comboed which is nice. Fox can also camp a bit vs Snake. Just a bit. If Snake has the lead he can just crouch though. He's a bit vulnerable to edge-guard too. 1st hit of Usmash can send Fox into the 2nd one, I hate it. Snake also has a bigger damage output.
- Falco can perform his buffer dthrow chaingrab on Fox so he can finish it from anywhere on the stage. Chaingrab to spike can always be SDI'd into the stage from my experience so that's not such a big deal. Fox should avoid the chain-grab by landing at Falco's backside and by using Bair as an approach since it's not shield-grabbable (unless maybe when power-shielded and Fox lands with cool-down? He's tall enough to usually no cool-down bair against), or grabbing Falco first if one is confident. Fox seems a bit better at KOing than Falco and he can also edge-guard sometimes.

- Marth is very hard. This character has a good chain-grab on Fox at 0%. If he goes for the grab, Fox can camp though. His range is a problem as well. Marth's HARD to shield-poke and hard to land KO moves on. One can go for edge-guards although they don't usually work.
- Zero Suit Samus shouldn't land Dsmash on you unless you like being sad.
- Olimar seems unapproachable. He can space pivot grabs, smashes, block stuff...he also has good enough KO power and a great amount of KO moves...I have no experience in the match-up though.

- Ice Climbers are very hard for Fox. Camp them. Any move you perform, you should perform because you think it's un-grabbable. Don't perform any moves that may get you grabbed. Remember they can't power-shield because the other climber gets hit if the main one power-shields. FD is an excellent IC stage btw.

Now the nightmare match-ups:
- Zelda's down B destroys Fox.
- Pikachu's 100%+ chain-grab isn't nice. Try to avoid KO moves I guess, and try to avoid the grab until you get grabbed.
- Sheik seems to be Fox's absolute worst match-up to me. If that Ftilt lock worked on every character...hahaha

Note: Dair to Dsmash leads into edge-guards in case you didn't know there's an easy way to do that

 

[Toronto Joe]

theres no way jigglypuff and rob is a huge advantage for fox,like none at all

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

theres no way jigglypuff and rob is a huge advantage for fox,like none at all

dude i would wager jiggs is **** close if not even with fox.

 

[TKD]

Ummm seriously? Jigglypuff? OK...whatever =P

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

Ummm seriously? Jigglypuff? OK...whatever =P

you ever played a good jiggs? like a jiggs main?

 

[RPK]

I dunno...The fact that Fox can combo jigglypuff, laser it to death since it HAS to come from the air at either a 45 degree angle or come running at you. Unlike Meta Knight, she can chase you down at a blinding running pace. Its faster for her to move by air. Thus, more lasers for Jigglypuff. and then she gets killed at what? 76% =/ You can nair upsmash at like...68 and probably still kill Jigglypuff. The fact that we can easily out run, out camp, and BY FAR kill faster than jigglypuff puts this in our favor. I would barely say slight advantage because dat ***** is good off stage ._.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I have played a decent Jiggs main/secondary (he kinda switches in and out from Jiggs to DDD, so I don't really know) and I didn't have any trouble with the match...


This could simply be because not too many people play Jiggs, and the guy I played sucked with her... but even on paper, the match doesn't look good at all.

Jiggs has nothing really covering her against vertical approaches... her uair is too slow to be used for this, and she really doesn't have another options... so Dair/Bair/Nair behind shield is like ALWAYS safe.

Fox doesn't really have too much trouble comboing and putting on damage in the match, and he kills her stupidly early... A Pound or poorly spaced aerial always gets shield usmashed, too...

If you're arguing because Jiggs can gimp Fox, then learn to recover... this shouldn't be happening very much at all..

About ROB... yeah, I don't think huge advantage... but that's just me.


As for Ike... while Ike players are pretty smart players, I don't think Ike has anything against Fox. a well played Fox should never be hit by anything other than Fair (maybe), Nair, Jab, or grab... and those aren't enough for Ike to win with... (Used to be an Ike main) That is the really frustrating thing about playing Ike... at least for me. Zoning and hitting really isn't a problem... it's just that once your fair is diminished, you can't really kill without landing a much riskier move... Fair can kill, but it's naturally not all THAT strong... and if they are using it to zone... then no problem.

On Fox's side, if he gets Ike in the Air, it's pretty much over... Nair is Ike's only covering option, and it's easy to shield smash that, meaning Ike really doesn't have a safe way of falling... plus he's big and combo bait.. Fox can gimp like no tomorrow... and actually doesn't have problem killing normally either...

Add that to the fact that shield approaching beats like everything Ike has... Yeah, I just think it's really bad.

 

[Toronto Joe]

Jiggz can plank Fox so its 99:1

but seriously,im sure G-reg would give us a run for our money with his Jiggz,even if he 2nds her

laser camping isnt as effective vs Jiggz since shes floaty combined with multiple jumps,i mean its still good since she has to approach,but she can close the distance between you quickly,meh i wont stress too much over Jiggz vs Fox,it is Jiggz after all lol

 

[Jenkins]

jiggs fox is kinda even, with slight adv in fox's favor.

no johns, fox doesnt perform fantasic against some low tiers, get over it jeez.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Nah, he doesn't just wreck all low tiers.... and I can see that.

PT is a harder match than I've ever given it credit for...and I've got several lower tiers on slight advantage... I don't know of one that I would give as a disadvantage... PT may be even, though.

But again... I haven't seen any argument as to WHY Jiggs is anywhere better than huge advantage...

So she can avoid lasers... that makes enough sense... but Fox's game isn't all laser.

I listed that she can't defend against the above attacks, doesn't really have safe approaches, gets comboed and killed quite easily by Fox, and really shouldn't be gimping him, (just imo)... And Fox actually has decent anti-air tactics, while Jiggs can't do very well on the ground... And planking really isn't that big of a problem...

Like, I really don't see why this would be a hard match at all... and my personal experience with a couple Jiggs players confirms my opinions...

 

[Jenkins]

lol i love the PT matchup. its so fun, but thats because i play an overly offensive fox

 

[Fenrir VII]

lol i love the PT matchup. its so fun, but thats because i play an overly offensive fox

OH yeah, it's actually a very interesting matchup... Been really liking playing it lately...but that's mainly because the PT player is amazing.

 

[Charoo]

thanks for the input all. I'll update the first post with what I was hoping for now. You guys can still give inputs though if u want. It would help

 

[Charoo]

lets discuss Marth!

 

[RPK]

His sword is huge >_< Also, when you have a fresh stock...Stay in the middle of the stage. Like for FD, for the love of god, stay in the diamond. Camp the crap out of that diamond, and dont leave it till youve got atleast 10% on you, unless you like taking a forward throw chain grab to spike to the face >_<

Anyways, the main problems I have with Marth are getting around the following moves

Blade Dance-Can be done anytime during a run. Even during the initial start ups of his dash. He can run behind your shield with that fast dash and hit the back side of it with a BD. Be aware of mix ups that he can do with his BD. He can do the first hit, and if the tip of it hits your shield, he can grab you out of it. He can also do the first few really fast, and delay the last hit in order for him to eat up more of your shield. This is also the move that he will use almost every time to punish you, and I can see why. If the first part of it hits, your stuck in the rest of the thing. If not, he just has to stop after the first slash.

Fair-Some Marths like full hopping this, some like short hopping. There are a decent number in my area so I dunno >_< Anyways, Fair is slightly vaunerable if they go for a sh double Fair. After the first Fair there is a slight amount of lag that I can usually get a dash attack in if I have spaced myself correctly...Know that Fair also has two parts to it. The tip and the regular hit. I forget the exact differences besides that the tippered fair has more knock back and damage. Anyways, what I have trouble getting around is a Marth using Full Hopped Fairs. Its just so safe, its not even funny.

Grab- **** that grab. There is a lot of stuff that he can do about this. I cant stress this enough...Do Not Get Grabbed! Especially if your at 0%. He can forward throw x 2 to spike. Or he can down throw you for a while to a tippered forward smash. So unless you like playing off stage, or like eating 50% then dont get grabbed.

Dolphin Slash- The bane of my existance. Well, mostly because we wont be able to utilize Dair too much as most will try to Up-b you out of it. Of course, the best thing to do in this situation after a Dair, if theyve been trained enough, is to just shield it. Anyways, some information on the move. Since it's an upb, it can instantly be done out of sheild. Which is really **** good. Anyways, it also starts up on frame 1, and has I believe 7 frames of invincibility. Or something like that...It has invincibility frames upon start up. So dont mess a Marth sitting in his shield because he is probably going to be looking for that. Especially if his shield is low. He'll do what he can to try and get you off of him, and this is his best gtfo move that he has.

In my experience, when Marth is playing Fox, he is going to go for a lot of punishments, and grab stuffs. Try your best to not keep yourself open. When playing Marth, he actually has really good running speed. So he can easily zone in on you. However, like Meta Knight, he has no projectile. Use this to your advantage. At most, fire 2-3 lasers at him. From there, prepare yourself to run away. If not look for an opening, hit him/throw him, and get the hell out of there. Back to firing more lasers at him. There probably a lot more to it, but those are the 4 moves that cause me the most pain...Ugh...

 

[Miles.]

PT has fun tricksies vs space aminiminals

 

[SnowballBob33]

Im Md so I've played g-reg's jiggz. It's not a major advantage. Its basically even. Donkey kong and D3 are also not a huge advantage. You can't just say "oh hes fat get ***** by fair."

Lucas can camp easily. Bstick pk fire and psi magnet. Also nair ***** hard.
Ill say stuff about marth later

 

[TKD]

Fox vs Marth is all about the players. You can't play this match-up in a pattern, or in a certain way. What you have to do depends on what the opponent does. Also Marth has a chain-grab at the beginning %'s which may allow Fox to camp a bit or get grab *****. Marth has much better range as well, which makes it even harder. The match-up depends on what he does, so he controls the fight.

This match-up is obviously hard for Fox. I can't explain it though, each counter, prediction and other things are way too specific. Maybe I'll be able to explain the match-up better once I gain a decent amount of tournament Marth experience.

Example:
- You can punish short-hop rising fair by blocking and performing SH fair, but what if they short-hop, and perform a shield-breaker while falling? -EDIT: If your shield's nor nearly full, you can run away and fight with options other than shielding.- Or what if they perform the Fair while falling and not rising? This would let you hit them before the move comes out.

Dsmash punishes air-dodge landings. Just saying because Marth's aerial mobility is so good you may actually have trouble with which side he falls onto. If he's retreating he'll likely fall with Fair. If you see the air-dodge early enough, no need to block, you can just walk up to him and hit him or dash attack if he's further.

Dsmash to edgeguard for edgeguard opportunities or very high % KOs. Dair to Dsmash is possible although Dair doesn't connect well very consistently on Marth because he's slim and his bdy box changes positions a lot while being hit.

This match-up, though hard is very possible for Fox because of it being so player dependent.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

huge advantage
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Zelda
Ike
Ness
Ganondorf

slight advantage
Snake
Diddy Kong
Marth
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar
R.O.B.
Lucario
Toon Link
Pit
Sonic
Lucas
Wolf
Captain Falcon

neutral
Meta Knight
Fox
Sheik

slight disadvantage
Wario
Pikachu
Kirby


major disadvantage
Falco
Ice Climbers


?
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Luigi
Pokémon Trainer
Mario
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link

 

[SnowballBob33]

Falco major disadvantage, what? Lucas is even or worse. Marth is even or worse. Lucario is about even. Diddy is about even. Oli is even or worse. Sheik is slight disadvantage.Sonics have gotten better. How DK so high? Fox should be A tier according to your list and what you have leftover.

 

[Palpi]

That list is lulzworthy.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

ha, I think fox has the potential to be A tier... And I have a different style than most people and have a different outlook on matchups.

 

[TKD]

Fox belongs in high tier, assuming it's the 3rd tier below uber (MK) and upper (pit, snake, falco, marth). He may be as good as the "uppers" in most situations (or better because of his MK match-up), but look at his Pikachu and Sheik match-ups. Horrendous. The true upper tier chars don't have that.