the secret zelda strats discussionzone

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,494
I'll probably post vids here, too, for analysis, though I can't promise innovation (which is really fun with her, for some reason).

The Zelda boards are finally breathing again.
 

GOTM

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,776
Location
West Chester, PA
Honestly I think Zelda has a lot of potential. I think with the new style of play that has been coming up recently, Zelda can take advantage of some habits that are forming.

I could be wrong but, one thing I see becoming EXTREMELY common especially in spacie play has been this whole idea of SHFFL'ing aerials and then backing away before hitting the ground to avoid punishment. Zelda destroys that type of play with her fair/bair.

I could be wrong but I've been seeing a lot of that type of stuff. Not saying this makes Zelda a lot better, but I think small things like that can be taken into account when trying to improve this character.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,494
You mean fadeback aerials? Yeah, those are pretty common, nowadays. During shield pressure, I believe. Falco will do a dair > shine, and then jump back while doing another dair, or nair on shield, so that he'll be safe from OoS punish, and will be able to punish whatever you decide to come OoS with. I think that's what you mean, anyways. The only issue I see with that is that I'm not sure if we could fair out of shield quickly enough.

If you don't mean during shield pressure, then I think it seems more viable. Definitely something we should try to take advantage of.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
15,531
yeah...scott i'm going to say that you're wrong on this one. the only way a character develops further is if that character gains a new options with true utility, or if that character gains a new way to remove options from the opponent. what you're essentially saying is that because a character gains new options against zelda, she is better, when really it makes her relatively worse. the only way it can be a good thing is if the opponent is bad and lets you exploit their new strategy, which relies on the opponent being bad.

another point here is that you're assuming fox/falco have to respect your out-of-shield (OOS) game, when frankly, they don't. by all means if your opponent ****s up you should take advantage of it, but understanding the true strengths and weaknesses of a character will let you play to or around them respectively and it will make you a better player overall.
 

GKInfinity

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Messages
2,131
Location
Modesto CA
Yeah... I don't think zelda really has much potential honestly lol. At least, she's not gonna be moving up the tier list anytime soon. Regardless of the playstyles that people adopt with other characters, zelda is going to remain the low tier character that she is unless someone discovers some crazy new AT. I rep zelda ALL DAI EVREE DAI but in the end I think her lack of speed just hinders her too much.
 

GOTM

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,776
Location
West Chester, PA
Yeah I didn't really mean I thought she was going to move up on the tier list or anything, I more meant it as just another thing to be aware of when playing spacies. They like to do that a lot now and the worse a spacie player is the more you will be able to take advantage of that situation.

Pretty much in agreement with you guys. Honestly, her speed and slow moves (except a couple), suck.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,494
I've completely forgotten about d-tilt...wait....you said dair. Dair > utilt?

DAIR?

I was going to mention getting a dash attack > uair > fair combo on a Mario last week, but I think that's more impressive, to be honest...
 

GOTM

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,776
Location
West Chester, PA
I was playing last night as well and I was able to kill a fox/falco pretty consistently with dash attack -> ftilt -> fair.

Once you hit the dash, if they don't DI it perfectly, and you hit with the beginning of it, it's pretty much a guaranteed KO if you're spacing is correct and they are at the right %.
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
Mostly zelda, I actually like playing alot of other characters especially marth (Spacing characters omgz)

But definatly mostly zelda cause shes my favorite <3
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
Peef is running it, i dont know exactly where its gonna be but check up at the top of smash boards for the Major Tournaments section and The Big House is the first one under it. Check up on that every once in awhile im sure they will update it every once in awhile.
 

GKInfinity

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Messages
2,131
Location
Modesto CA
I surprisingly was not aware of this tournament until now. I'm generally pretty good at keeping up with the melee smash scene. SFAT was saying he was gonna go to a midwest tournament though and I guess this is it haha.

Good luck though Lake! Kick those fox players in the teeth
 
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
College Park, MD
How do you guys deal with characters like Sheik and Marth who swat you in the air but grab you on the ground? I feel like I can't get away from them when they get on me, but I can get in on them when they run away from me.
 

Upke

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
429
Location
Savannah, GA / Cary, NC
Well, I know that if you can bait out some of Marth's attacks, you can actually kick his extended hurtbox and remain a pretty safe distance away from him. Even with that though, he's a pretty annoying match-up to say the least.

I don't like Sheik.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
College Park, MD
They can like grab/swat me out of the air so jumping is useless against them. But Zelda's ground mobility is pretty bad too, so sticking to the ground isn't necessarily the best plan either. If you're really technical with Zelda's dash dance and wavedashes you can kind of space safe-ish, but it takes so much effort.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
15,531
How do you guys deal with characters like Sheik and Marth who swat you in the air but grab you on the ground? I feel like I can't get away from them when they get on me, but I can get in on them when they run away from me.
for marth, you stay grounded anyway but make every grab for him as risky as possible. that means lots of built-in defenses like always be holding down during your moves, lots of tight dashdancing, lights of reactive light shield use, and hold down when grabbed. from here you basically want to movement camp him in neutral except you never approach and you force him to go for the grab. you can still cover ground with your dashdance to force him to react to you, but you still don't want to commit to anything. once he gives you a swing or jumps, that's what you're going for. try to dash attack, fsmash, dsmash, or kick him as he presents opportunities to you. play to the general peach strategy of trying to live forever but killing him at reasonable damage. when you recover, go low and do the lip hug. this prevents all of marths edge guards and edge hog tricks at the same time. when you land from the lip hug, buffer light shield so he's forced to grab you, and then DI any throw he does straight down so it has no follow-up. repeat this low-risk procedure until you get back.

for sheik, the MU is the same except you can't reasonably expect to shield camp her the same way. but that's why that MU sucks lol.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,409
Location
College Park, MD
Hm. I didn't know about DIing throws down. I've always DI'd them down+away from where I thought he would throw me, but pure down DI covers both options pretty well I guess. I've essentially been playing the neutral game the way you're suggesting, but far from ideally obviously. My timings on dash dance just need to be tighter probably. Full control of Zelda's wavedash is very helpful as well.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
so i got a new secret strat for yall.

at mlg anaheim 2014 there's a moment where m2k has pp's marth right by the ledge with sheik. pp is shielding, expecting to be knocked back to the ledge. m2k nairs his shield, but he doesn't use the nair until he's just about to hit the ground. pp is knocked back in shield stun to the ledge, but because m2k used the nair so late on pp's shield he's able to dsmash while pp is in the tumbling animation falling to the ledge. unless pp had expected m2k to delay the nair and responded with a fair oos or spot dodged, he had no way of getting by the dsmash.

i'm thinking of doing something like this with zelda. you would have to hit their shield with the weaker hitbox of a fair, and hopefully it'd be able to knock them off. dsmash would definitely be able to hit in time. it's just a question of not getting swatted away while falling, as zelda's jump is so much slower than sheik's.
 

Magus420

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 13, 2003
Messages
4,541
Location
Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Exactly 1 year to the day since last post, lol. Been playing a lot of Zelda this past year since more actively playing melee again. Probably equal or better with her than CF/Ganon at this point and only really switch off vs Sheik because **** that matchup.

Posted some u-throw stuff back on page 3 a while ago, but now I have better tools to test with (input/hitstun display and stuff) and neat looking charts! Gonna look at u-smash combos next because I take lots of 1.00 setups wherever I go and Zelda isn't a character in 1.02 anyway =P


_________________________________________________________

***All damages listed are the damage BEFORE the throw. When stale the numbers are slightly higher.

U-Throw (11 damage)
Stun Damage
37 0-2
38 3-7
39 8-13
40 14-18
41 19-24
42 25-29
43 30-35
44 36-40
45 41-46
46 47-51
47 52-57
48 58-62
49 63-68
50 69-73
51 74-79
52 80-84
53 85-90
54 91-95
55 96-101
56 102-106
57 107-112
58 113-117
59 118-123
60 124-128
61 129-134
62 135-139
63 140-145
64 146-150
65 151-156
66 157-161
67 162-167
etc ...
Character Throw Lag Release Point (X,Y)
Falco 16 -4.484, 15.740
Fox 16 -4.484, 15.740
C Falcon 21 -3.996, 10.193
Things like regrab on behind DI and a clean positioned u-smash on away DI for Falco/Fox often require you to respond by the 17th-19th frame of knockback in order to be able to reach them in time which can be hard to do (keep in mind you're waiting to the point into KB where the DI paths can be identified and then it's a choice reaction ontop of that). A lot of the upper combo range of other stuff does as well. CF's are less demanding on reaction time since you couldn't act that soon if you wanted to anyway, but the stuff that still works does have tight timing.

It's... pretty tough but I can assure anyone doubtful of it that regrabs are doable on behind DI, as I've gotten pretty good at it against people who I've told that it's best to DI most of the u-throws behind, but not so much as to be predictable. When I drop it it's almost always due to missing the smash turn on the dash. Gonna try working in u-smash regrabs on away DI next (I avoid this character in v1.02) for better damage output (more damage and also unstales the throw and pummel), but it complicates something already pretty difficult to respond to in time so dunno how consistent I'd be able to get at that.

Anything with behind DI it's essential to get the smash turn when dashing behind (go from neutral to dash threshold on the stick in 1 frame). If you get the slow turn, you will not reach them in time with just about anything that will lead into another move because of her slow speed and the release point being significantly behind her. When I do an u-throw (or u-smash) I put my thumb on the side edge of the stick grip rather than on the front of it (if facing right have it on the right edge ready to smash left) and rotate it to the side a little so the motion becomes more like a press than shifting left/right. I find I get the most acceleration and power behind the motion to get more consistent smash turns that way while still in a position to immediately dash forward instead if needed.


U-Throw -> Regrab
Character DI Lower Port Higher Port Additional Notes
Falco Neutral 0-60 (56-60 Pivot/Walk Grab) 0-67 (66-67 Pivot/Walk Grab)
Falco Away 0-82 0-88
Falco Behind 0-65 0-72 Dash Grab

Fox Neutral 0-50 0-56 (55-56 Pivot/Walk Grab)
Fox Away 0-67 0-72
Fox Behind 0-60 0-66 Dash Grab

C Falcon Neutral 0-34 0-39
C Falcon Away 0-45 0-54
C Falcon Behind 8-10, 14-17, 19-23, 25-28, 30-33, 36-37 3-44 Dash Grab

U-Throw -> Dash Attack (sweetspot)
Character DI Lower Port Higher Port Additional Notes
Falco Neutral 0-61 0-71
Falco Away 0-87 0-89
Falco Behind 0-78 0-88

Fox Neutral 0-54 0-59
Fox Away 0-72 0-77
Fox Behind 0-71 0-76

C Falcon Neutral 0-49 0-55
C Falcon Away 0-66 0-71
C Falcon Behind 0-49 0-60
-Dash Attack doesn't combo when they DI behind her when there was no previous X knockback (no DI u-throw -> dash attack), but doesn't combo if they DI away from her if there was X knockback moving away from her (side DI u-throw -> dash attack). This is due to KB stacking. It sends at a 90 angle normally and since she moves forward in the animation DI behind is best combo DI, but if comboed into when they're moving away from you it becomes a more outward trajectory that can be DIed further away but not as far behind, reversing the combo DI needed for the move.

-If they DI the throw to the side they're likely to continue DIing that way and avoid followup on the dash attack though unless there's reason to be afraid of DIing a kick badly then or there's no room to tech away. Good option if you have trouble getting the regrab on behind DI however.


U-Throw -> U-Smash
Character DI Lower Port Higher Port Additional Notes
Falco Neutral 0-77 (68-77 can jump 2nd wave) 0-83 (73-83 can jump 2nd wave)
Falco Away 0-94 (88-94 can jump 2nd wave) 0-99 (94-99 can jump 2nd wave)
Falco Behind 7-67 11-78

Fox Neutral 0-66 0-71
Fox Away 0-82 (81-82 can jump 2nd wave) 0-88 (87-88 can jump 2nd wave)
Fox Behind 13-66 13-72

C Falcon Neutral 0-61 0-66
C Falcon Away 0-67 0-76
C Falcon Behind 0-45 0-54 U-Smash must be stale
-U-Smash can combo into grab and other stuff when DIed to either side as long as you're lined up horizontally under them at the start of the move (and not 1.02/PAL obv). If it's already stale it's a little easier to catch DI to the side since they don't get to ASDI the 1st hit away from the middle. If you hit with the side of the move and then they DI away they'll usually go too far to grab.

-On no DI u-throw do a short JC u-smash directly behind you to get lined up properly and combo off of it in both directions. I claw Y and c-stick it so the control stick stays focused on getting the smash turn on the back dash (if you slow turn you'll just u-smash in place instead).

-Don't bother with behind DI. A lot of frame perfect inputs and doesn't connect with the middle of u-smash anyway (you'll only reach with the side of u-smash).


U-Throw -> F-Tilt (sweetspot)
Character DI Lower Port Higher Port Additional Notes
Falco Neutral 0-72 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 47+ WD, 51+ Angle Up) 0-78 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 41+ WD, 57+ Angle Up)
Falco Away 0-94 (25-81 Walk, 41+ WD, 78+ Angle Up) 0-100 (28-83 Walk, 36+ WD, 84+ Angle Up)
Falco Behind 47-88 41-94 Wavedash

Fox Neutral 0-61 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 47+ WD, 45+ Angle Up) 0-67 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 41+ WD, 51+ Angle Up)
Fox Away 0-78 (23-75 Walk, 41+ WD, 67+ Angle Up) 0-83 (26-77 Walk, 36+ WD, 72+ Angle Up)
Fox Behind 47-78 41-87 Wavedash

C Falcon Neutral 0-54 (0+ Pivot, 14+ Walk, 38+ Angle Up) 0-60 (0+ Pivot, 12+ Walk, 42+ Angle Up)
C Falcon Away 0-54 (27+ Walk, 45+ Angle Up) 0-59 (23+ Walk, 51+ Angle Up)
C Falcon Behind N/A N/A
-F-Tilt is bad for comboing without the aid of KB stacking which makes its angle less crappy, though the endlag still keeps it from being as good as it could be compared to something like u-smash. If they DI u-throw away they'll have a decent amount of KB away from you that f-tilting them then sends more vertically due to the existing KB away canceling out some of the KB behind you on the f-tilt, and they won't be able to DI as far behind you while still being able to reach away DI.

-Besides the better combo trajectory, f-tilting when they're moving away from you to have the KBs stack also gets a small hitstun boost vs distance sent since it reduces horizontal KB but keeps the same hitstun it'd normally have.

-A KB stacked f-tilt still usually doesn't combo if they DI straight behind, but it does at least combo on kick survival DI while I'm pretty sure nonstacked f-tilt does not. I've noticed 1 specific case where DIed away u-throw -> f-tilt combos into regrab even if they DI straight behind though: If CF DIs u-throw away around 20-25 you can f-tilt regrab him either way if you time it right.

-Might be worth f-tilting away DI on the throw if it seems like they're trying to DI stuff away to get over to a platform, so you don't need to worry as much about them DIing behind and avoiding followup on the f-tilt.

-Don't bother with f-tilt on anything other than away DI on the throw. Behind DI the timing is really tight and the WD angle needs to be perfect, and at the percents it starts to work f-tilt blows more than usual. On no DI u-throw you don't get KB stacking so the f-tilt trajectory is bad.


U-Throw -> Kick
Character DI Lower Port Higher Port Additional Notes
Falco Neutral 0-163 0-165
Falco Away 0-163 0-165
Falco Behind 0-142 0-144

Fox Neutral 0-149 0-153
Fox Away 0-149 0-153
Fox Behind 0-131 0-136

C Falcon Neutral 0-142 0-144
C Falcon Away 0-138 0-143
C Falcon Behind 0-112 0-114
-At higher damages if they don't DI the throw you can run/jump under and past them to kick the other direction if needed.
_________________________________________________________



Since you can get guaranteed regrabs and combos off u-smash in 1.00/1.01 the best stuff to do there seems to be: Pummel (can always do 1 if you time the u-throw directly after it), U-Throw (regrab behind DI, u-smash regrab no DI/away DI until mid percents), U-Smash (grab if DI to side, u-smash again if no DI low damage, grab if no DI mid damage), and when they DI to jump out of u-throw regrab end it with U-Smash -> Kick, as the u-smash reaches higher than grab. Maybe f-tilt on away DI u-throw at 20-25ish on CF where you're able to grab DI to either side.

In 1.02/PAL just pummel u-throw regrabs all the way ending in kick, and again maybe f-tilt on away DI in there somewhere.
 

comics

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
63
Location
New Jersey
Nerfed? I've looked everywhere, I haven't seen anywhere say that she was nerfed in 1.02. Sheik was changed but Zelda was left alone.
Zelda was "nerfed" because a lot of her moves can be SDI'd out of in 1.02 (which also is the case for some moves that Samus and YL/Link have along with possibly a few other characters). That aspect of 1.02 was the stupidest move on the developers part, since it only effected characters that aren't even too amazing.

Her literal stats aren't technically different, though (that I know of).
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Last edited:

NJzFinest

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2004
Messages
8,861
Location
Princeton, NJ
Someone give me the run down of ICs vs Zelda.

The only semi recent videos is Dizzkidboogie beating Upke and destroying TheLake twice. I heard TheManaLord was able to beat Dizzkid.
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
So I discovered that Zelda has a fully invincible Ledgehopstall?

This isn't in the Wiki or anywhere else I could find.

Is this common knowledge or am I crazy? She has a similar shallow DJ and floaty FF speed as Gannon that seems to allow it (also seems to have a bit larger ledge grab range).

I was recording in training mode and even found that you can FF then backwards DJ > snap to the ledge from pretty far away within the 29-30 frame window. There appears to be a frame of lenience, and she's tilt jumping away from ledge so her hurtbox is safe from most grounded edge attacks until she snaps to the ledge (in case you mess up the timing).
 
Last edited:

ikrager

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
26
So I discovered that Zelda has a fully invincible Ledgehopstall?

This isn't in the Wiki or anywhere else I could find.

Is this common knowledge or am I crazy? She has a similar shallow DJ and floaty FF speed as Gannon that seems to allow it (also seems to have a bit larger ledge grab range).

I was recording in training mode and even found that you can FF then backwards DJ > snap to the ledge from pretty far away within the 29-30 frame window. There appears to be a frame of lenience, and she's tilt jumping away from ledge so her hurtbox is safe from most grounded edge attacks until she snaps to the ledge (in case you mess up the timing).
Anyway you could record it to show what you mean?
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
I can't even comprehend how this would be hard to understand. It's exactly as I said above, but perhaps I've done it for a while so it just makes sense to me.

1. You FF
2. You DJ while tilting slightly back to fadeaway (this makes Zelda do her lean back DJ)
3. Snap to ledge from max distance

If you time it right it's 29 frames, same lenience in frames as Up-B ledge stall. Fully invincible.

EDIT - There is another ledge stall variant that I forgot to include, just tested it and confirmed.

1. Let go
2. Immediately DJ straight up
3. FF as soon as possible
4. Grab ledge still invincible


I would say anyone could do the Up-B ledge stall (Wind stall), since it's quite easy. But to do fully invincible Wind Stall constantly and consistently I'd say not many actually are technical enough to do it properly.

The ledge hop stall is another option (and it allows you to be actionable through-out instead of forced animation > re-grabbing like Wind Stall), more difficult to pull off back to back for most I imagine, but if accidentally not done fully invincible it has a better hurtbox placement for people attacking the lip (Wind Stall can spread your hurtbox out far and near the ledge, easy to hit). It also has no hitbox on it if you want to refresh but do not want to accidently hit them which can lead to a failed edge guard.

The main point is that I've been told in the past that Zelda doesn't have a fully invincible ledgehopstall, and there is no data or info on the wiki or this site that seems to state otherwise. But I've tested it now in 20xx and it is possible in 2 ways. In a realistic setting you don't have more than a frame of lenience so it's as tight as the fully Inv. Wind Stall we all know.
 
Last edited:

Habilecho

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
25
Location
Pennsylvania
Someone give me the run down of ICs vs Zelda.

The only semi recent videos is Dizzkidboogie beating Upke and destroying TheLake twice. I heard TheManaLord was able to beat Dizzkid.
Basically Zelda needs to wait until IC's present themselves to an opening (as with most matchups), but once you separate them (which a kick/f-smash can consistently do), then nana is p free to ko. Zelda v sopo is a lot better, but you still need to watch their ground movement since they can come in any time. If you shield the d-smash you can kick punish like you would fox's u-smash.

Nayru's love is also decent at separating them but leaves you very open to getting grabbed afterward if they don't get caught. Then you die. It's one of those once to twice a set moves just to mix it up. It's also decent as a recover onto stage tech to throw the timing off.

You need to mix up who you are attacking when the climbers are separated. Good IC's will punish you for attacking only nana. d-smash is very strong at keeping them separated when you are standing between them. Just face towards the popo most of the time since they want to attack you, and nana won't when she's behind you. Plus the d-smash can hit behind zelda in case nana tries to run straight through.

Camp the platforms. don't get grabbed. All the other stuff you're supposed to do against IC's. Be creative with the platform movement though. Have a lot of mixups as IC's are very used to reading the platform movement. Always be ready for an approach and know what hitboxes will counter said approach. wavedash -> f-smash if they try to come from center -> platform.

If they are under the platform, you can dropzone kick them, but be wary of the u-smash from them. I retreat to top platform mostly when they are directly beneath me. dropzone kick is very good though as they are approaching to get into the position of being below you. Always mind the spacing of their wavedash so you don't drop into the u-smash.

If you are both on the ground then empty jump/kick mixups are great. Just jumping can exude enough pressure against IC's since the kick is so devastating. If they blizzard you out you have another jump, so don't double jump preemptively unless you are already moving away. Wavelands are also great to create extra space after empty/kicked jumps.

If you do get grabbed SDI up and pray you get away. Maybe nair to get a tickle on them and separate???

If you grab them always d-throw since it has another hitbox from the sparkles.

That's the gist of it. Obviously there's a lot more to it but this is the ground level tech to know about.
 
Top