the secret zelda strats discussionzone

[KirbyKaze]

I think Fox ***** Zelda.

I like to kick with Zelda.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'll probably post vids here, too, for analysis, though I can't promise innovation (which is really fun with her, for some reason).

The Zelda boards are finally breathing again.

 

[GOTM]

Honestly I think Zelda has a lot of potential. I think with the new style of play that has been coming up recently, Zelda can take advantage of some habits that are forming.

I could be wrong but, one thing I see becoming EXTREMELY common especially in spacie play has been this whole idea of SHFFL'ing aerials and then backing away before hitting the ground to avoid punishment. Zelda destroys that type of play with her fair/bair.

I could be wrong but I've been seeing a lot of that type of stuff. Not saying this makes Zelda a lot better, but I think small things like that can be taken into account when trying to improve this character.

 

[ShroudedOne]

You mean fadeback aerials? Yeah, those are pretty common, nowadays. During shield pressure, I believe. Falco will do a dair > shine, and then jump back while doing another dair, or nair on shield, so that he'll be safe from OoS punish, and will be able to punish whatever you decide to come OoS with. I think that's what you mean, anyways. The only issue I see with that is that I'm not sure if we could fair out of shield quickly enough.

If you don't mean during shield pressure, then I think it seems more viable. Definitely something we should try to take advantage of.

 

[Deleted member]

yeah...scott i'm going to say that you're wrong on this one. the only way a character develops further is if that character gains a new options with true utility, or if that character gains a new way to remove options from the opponent. what you're essentially saying is that because a character gains new options against zelda, she is better, when really it makes her relatively worse. the only way it can be a good thing is if the opponent is bad and lets you exploit their new strategy, which relies on the opponent being bad.

another point here is that you're assuming fox/falco have to respect your out-of-shield (OOS) game, when frankly, they don't. by all means if your opponent ****s up you should take advantage of it, but understanding the true strengths and weaknesses of a character will let you play to or around them respectively and it will make you a better player overall.

 

[GKInfinity]

Yeah... I don't think zelda really has much potential honestly lol. At least, she's not gonna be moving up the tier list anytime soon. Regardless of the playstyles that people adopt with other characters, zelda is going to remain the low tier character that she is unless someone discovers some crazy new AT. I rep zelda ALL DAI EVREE DAI but in the end I think her lack of speed just hinders her too much.

 

[Cosmo!]

zelda wont ever get magic new crazy AT.

she's best when played with a strong defensive game

 

[GOTM]

Yeah I didn't really mean I thought she was going to move up on the tier list or anything, I more meant it as just another thing to be aware of when playing spacies. They like to do that a lot now and the worse a spacie player is the more you will be able to take advantage of that situation.

Pretty much in agreement with you guys. Honestly, her speed and slow moves (except a couple), suck.

 

[EPsilon933]

I wish she could get down to the ground better

 

[Dark Hart]

She's so slow....

I hate how bad Zelda is lol

But she's so fuuuuuun

And amazing

Btw I got a Dair -> utilt kill on a sheik yesterday ^_^

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've completely forgotten about d-tilt...wait....you said dair. Dair > utilt?

DAIR?

I was going to mention getting a dash attack > uair > fair combo on a Mario last week, but I think that's more impressive, to be honest...

 

[Dark Hart]

It probably only killed because it was on a yoshi's platform but still lol

 

[GOTM]

I was playing last night as well and I was able to kill a fox/falco pretty consistently with dash attack -> ftilt -> fair.

Once you hit the dash, if they don't DI it perfectly, and you hit with the beginning of it, it's pretty much a guaranteed KO if you're spacing is correct and they are at the right %.

 

[TheLake]

Going to the big house this weekend

wish me luck me buccos :D

GOnna be live streamed soo cheeecck itt ouuuut

 

[ShroudedOne]

Good luck! I assume you'll be going all Zelda? I'll definitely check it out.

 

[TheLake]

Mostly zelda, I actually like playing alot of other characters especially marth (Spacing characters omgz)

But definatly mostly zelda cause shes my favorite <3

 

[GKInfinity]

You should post the link to the livestream. I'll definitely watch

 

[TheLake]

Peef is running it, i dont know exactly where its gonna be but check up at the top of smash boards for the Major Tournaments section and The Big House is the first one under it. Check up on that every once in awhile im sure they will update it every once in awhile.

 

[GKInfinity]

I surprisingly was not aware of this tournament until now. I'm generally pretty good at keeping up with the melee smash scene. SFAT was saying he was gonna go to a midwest tournament though and I guess this is it haha.

Good luck though Lake! Kick those fox players in the teeth

 

[Dark Hart]

I'm going to a tourney tomorrow...

My go Zelda in pools

Trip people up

 

[CorteX]

Woah super necro!! Sorry about that.. Was supposed to go in the ZeldaM forums.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How do you guys deal with characters like Sheik and Marth who swat you in the air but grab you on the ground? I feel like I can't get away from them when they get on me, but I can get in on them when they run away from me.

 

[Upke]

Well, I know that if you can bait out some of Marth's attacks, you can actually kick his extended hurtbox and remain a pretty safe distance away from him. Even with that though, he's a pretty annoying match-up to say the least.

I don't like Sheik.

 

[ChivalRuse]

They can like grab/swat me out of the air so jumping is useless against them. But Zelda's ground mobility is pretty bad too, so sticking to the ground isn't necessarily the best plan either. If you're really technical with Zelda's dash dance and wavedashes you can kind of space safe-ish, but it takes so much effort.

 

[Deleted member]

How do you guys deal with characters like Sheik and Marth who swat you in the air but grab you on the ground? I feel like I can't get away from them when they get on me, but I can get in on them when they run away from me.

for marth, you stay grounded anyway but make every grab for him as risky as possible. that means lots of built-in defenses like always be holding down during your moves, lots of tight dashdancing, lights of reactive light shield use, and hold down when grabbed. from here you basically want to movement camp him in neutral except you never approach and you force him to go for the grab. you can still cover ground with your dashdance to force him to react to you, but you still don't want to commit to anything. once he gives you a swing or jumps, that's what you're going for. try to dash attack, fsmash, dsmash, or kick him as he presents opportunities to you. play to the general peach strategy of trying to live forever but killing him at reasonable damage. when you recover, go low and do the lip hug. this prevents all of marths edge guards and edge hog tricks at the same time. when you land from the lip hug, buffer light shield so he's forced to grab you, and then DI any throw he does straight down so it has no follow-up. repeat this low-risk procedure until you get back.

for sheik, the MU is the same except you can't reasonably expect to shield camp her the same way. but that's why that MU sucks lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hm. I didn't know about DIing throws down. I've always DI'd them down+away from where I thought he would throw me, but pure down DI covers both options pretty well I guess. I've essentially been playing the neutral game the way you're suggesting, but far from ideally obviously. My timings on dash dance just need to be tighter probably. Full control of Zelda's wavedash is very helpful as well.

 

[NJzFinest]

Man, in smash bros 4 zelda's gonna kick ***. Just you wait

Looking at the moveset demo that was uploaded on VGBC, she looks promising.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

so i got a new secret strat for yall.

at mlg anaheim 2014 there's a moment where m2k has pp's marth right by the ledge with sheik. pp is shielding, expecting to be knocked back to the ledge. m2k nairs his shield, but he doesn't use the nair until he's just about to hit the ground. pp is knocked back in shield stun to the ledge, but because m2k used the nair so late on pp's shield he's able to dsmash while pp is in the tumbling animation falling to the ledge. unless pp had expected m2k to delay the nair and responded with a fair oos or spot dodged, he had no way of getting by the dsmash.

i'm thinking of doing something like this with zelda. you would have to hit their shield with the weaker hitbox of a fair, and hopefully it'd be able to knock them off. dsmash would definitely be able to hit in time. it's just a question of not getting swatted away while falling, as zelda's jump is so much slower than sheik's.

 

[Magus420]

Exactly 1 year to the day since last post, lol. Been playing a lot of Zelda this past year since more actively playing melee again. Probably equal or better with her than CF/Ganon at this point and only really switch off vs Sheik because **** that matchup.

Posted some u-throw stuff back on page 3 a while ago, but now I have better tools to test with (input/hitstun display and stuff) and neat looking charts! Gonna look at u-smash combos next because I take lots of 1.00 setups wherever I go and Zelda isn't a character in 1.02 anyway =P


_________________________________________________________

***All damages listed are the damage BEFORE the throw. When stale the numbers are slightly higher.

U-Throw (11 damage)

Spoiler: U-Throw Hitstun

Stun | Damage
37|0-2
38|3-7
39|8-13
40|14-18
41|19-24
42|25-29
43|30-35
44|36-40
45|41-46
46|47-51
47|52-57
48|58-62
49|63-68
50|69-73
51|74-79
52|80-84
53|85-90
54|91-95
55|96-101
56|102-106
57|107-112
58|113-117
59|118-123
60|124-128
61|129-134
62|135-139
63|140-145
64|146-150
65|151-156
66|157-161
67|162-167
etc|...

Character | Throw Lag | Release Point (X,Y) Falco |16|-4.484, 15.740
Fox |16|-4.484, 15.740
C Falcon |21|-3.996, 10.193

Things like regrab on behind DI and a clean positioned u-smash on away DI for Falco/Fox often require you to respond by the 17th-19th frame of knockback in order to be able to reach them in time which can be hard to do (keep in mind you're waiting to the point into KB where the DI paths can be identified and then it's a choice reaction ontop of that). A lot of the upper combo range of other stuff does as well. CF's are less demanding on reaction time since you couldn't act that soon if you wanted to anyway, but the stuff that still works does have tight timing.

It's... pretty tough but I can assure anyone doubtful of it that regrabs are doable on behind DI, as I've gotten pretty good at it against people who I've told that it's best to DI most of the u-throws behind, but not so much as to be predictable. When I drop it it's almost always due to missing the smash turn on the dash. Gonna try working in u-smash regrabs on away DI next (I avoid this character in v1.02) for better damage output (more damage and also unstales the throw and pummel), but it complicates something already pretty difficult to respond to in time so dunno how consistent I'd be able to get at that.

Anything with behind DI it's essential to get the smash turn when dashing behind (go from neutral to dash threshold on the stick in 1 frame). If you get the slow turn, you will not reach them in time with just about anything that will lead into another move because of her slow speed and the release point being significantly behind her. When I do an u-throw (or u-smash) I put my thumb on the side edge of the stick grip rather than on the front of it (if facing right have it on the right edge ready to smash left) and rotate it to the side a little so the motion becomes more like a press than shifting left/right. I find I get the most acceleration and power behind the motion to get more consistent smash turns that way while still in a position to immediately dash forward instead if needed.


U-Throw -> Regrab

Character | DI | Lower Port | Higher Port | Additional Notes Falco | Neutral |0-60 (56-60 Pivot/Walk Grab) |0-67 (66-67 Pivot/Walk Grab) Falco | Away |0-82|0-88
Falco | Behind |0-65|0-72|Dash Grab

Fox | Neutral |0-50|0-56 (55-56 Pivot/Walk Grab) Fox | Away |0-67|0-72
Fox | Behind |0-60|0-66|Dash Grab

C Falcon | Neutral |0-34|0-39
C Falcon | Away |0-45|0-54
C Falcon | Behind |8-10, 14-17, 19-23, 25-28, 30-33, 36-37|3-44|Dash Grab

U-Throw -> Dash Attack (sweetspot)

Character | DI | Lower Port | Higher Port | Additional Notes Falco | Neutral |0-61|0-71
Falco | Away |0-87|0-89
Falco | Behind |0-78|0-88

Fox | Neutral |0-54|0-59
Fox | Away |0-72|0-77
Fox | Behind |0-71|0-76

C Falcon | Neutral |0-49|0-55
C Falcon | Away |0-66|0-71
C Falcon | Behind |0-49|0-60

-Dash Attack doesn't combo when they DI behind her when there was no previous X knockback (no DI u-throw -> dash attack), but doesn't combo if they DI away from her if there was X knockback moving away from her (side DI u-throw -> dash attack). This is due to KB stacking. It sends at a 90 angle normally and since she moves forward in the animation DI behind is best combo DI, but if comboed into when they're moving away from you it becomes a more outward trajectory that can be DIed further away but not as far behind, reversing the combo DI needed for the move.

-If they DI the throw to the side they're likely to continue DIing that way and avoid followup on the dash attack though unless there's reason to be afraid of DIing a kick badly then or there's no room to tech away. Good option if you have trouble getting the regrab on behind DI however.


U-Throw -> U-Smash

Character | DI | Lower Port | Higher Port | Additional Notes Falco | Neutral |0-77 (68-77 can jump 2nd wave) |0-83 (73-83 can jump 2nd wave) Falco | Away |0-94 (88-94 can jump 2nd wave) |0-99 (94-99 can jump 2nd wave) Falco | Behind |7-67|11-78

Fox | Neutral |0-66|0-71
Fox | Away |0-82 (81-82 can jump 2nd wave) |0-88 (87-88 can jump 2nd wave) Fox | Behind |13-66|13-72

C Falcon | Neutral |0-61|0-66
C Falcon | Away |0-67|0-76
C Falcon | Behind |0-45|0-54|U-Smash must be stale

-U-Smash can combo into grab and other stuff when DIed to either side as long as you're lined up horizontally under them at the start of the move (and not 1.02/PAL obv). If it's already stale it's a little easier to catch DI to the side since they don't get to ASDI the 1st hit away from the middle. If you hit with the side of the move and then they DI away they'll usually go too far to grab.

-On no DI u-throw do a short JC u-smash directly behind you to get lined up properly and combo off of it in both directions. I claw Y and c-stick it so the control stick stays focused on getting the smash turn on the back dash (if you slow turn you'll just u-smash in place instead).

-Don't bother with behind DI. A lot of frame perfect inputs and doesn't connect with the middle of u-smash anyway (you'll only reach with the side of u-smash).


U-Throw -> F-Tilt (sweetspot)

Character | DI | Lower Port | Higher Port | Additional Notes Falco | Neutral |0-72 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 47+ WD, 51+ Angle Up) |0-78 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 41+ WD, 57+ Angle Up) Falco | Away |0-94 (25-81 Walk, 41+ WD, 78+ Angle Up) |0-100 (28-83 Walk, 36+ WD, 84+ Angle Up) Falco | Behind |47-88|41-94|Wavedash

Fox | Neutral |0-61 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 47+ WD, 45+ Angle Up) |0-67 (0+ Walk/Pivot, 41+ WD, 51+ Angle Up) Fox | Away |0-78 (23-75 Walk, 41+ WD, 67+ Angle Up) |0-83 (26-77 Walk, 36+ WD, 72+ Angle Up) Fox | Behind |47-78|41-87|Wavedash

C Falcon | Neutral |0-54 (0+ Pivot, 14+ Walk, 38+ Angle Up) |0-60 (0+ Pivot, 12+ Walk, 42+ Angle Up) C Falcon | Away |0-54 (27+ Walk, 45+ Angle Up) |0-59 (23+ Walk, 51+ Angle Up) C Falcon | Behind |N/A|N/A

-F-Tilt is bad for comboing without the aid of KB stacking which makes its angle less crappy, though the endlag still keeps it from being as good as it could be compared to something like u-smash. If they DI u-throw away they'll have a decent amount of KB away from you that f-tilting them then sends more vertically due to the existing KB away canceling out some of the KB behind you on the f-tilt, and they won't be able to DI as far behind you while still being able to reach away DI.

-Besides the better combo trajectory, f-tilting when they're moving away from you to have the KBs stack also gets a small hitstun boost vs distance sent since it reduces horizontal KB but keeps the same hitstun it'd normally have.

-A KB stacked f-tilt still usually doesn't combo if they DI straight behind, but it does at least combo on kick survival DI while I'm pretty sure nonstacked f-tilt does not. I've noticed 1 specific case where DIed away u-throw -> f-tilt combos into regrab even if they DI straight behind though: If CF DIs u-throw away around 20-25 you can f-tilt regrab him either way if you time it right.

-Might be worth f-tilting away DI on the throw if it seems like they're trying to DI stuff away to get over to a platform, so you don't need to worry as much about them DIing behind and avoiding followup on the f-tilt.

-Don't bother with f-tilt on anything other than away DI on the throw. Behind DI the timing is really tight and the WD angle needs to be perfect, and at the percents it starts to work f-tilt blows more than usual. On no DI u-throw you don't get KB stacking so the f-tilt trajectory is bad.


U-Throw -> Kick

Character | DI | Lower Port | Higher Port | Additional Notes Falco | Neutral |0-163|0-165
Falco | Away |0-163|0-165
Falco | Behind |0-142|0-144

Fox | Neutral |0-149|0-153
Fox | Away |0-149|0-153
Fox | Behind |0-131|0-136

C Falcon | Neutral |0-142|0-144
C Falcon | Away |0-138|0-143
C Falcon | Behind |0-112|0-114

-At higher damages if they don't DI the throw you can run/jump under and past them to kick the other direction if needed.
_________________________________________________________



Since you can get guaranteed regrabs and combos off u-smash in 1.00/1.01 the best stuff to do there seems to be: Pummel (can always do 1 if you time the u-throw directly after it), U-Throw (regrab behind DI, u-smash regrab no DI/away DI until mid percents), U-Smash (grab if DI to side, u-smash again if no DI low damage, grab if no DI mid damage), and when they DI to jump out of u-throw regrab end it with U-Smash -> Kick, as the u-smash reaches higher than grab. Maybe f-tilt on away DI u-throw at 20-25ish on CF where you're able to grab DI to either side.

In 1.02/PAL just pummel u-throw regrabs all the way ending in kick, and again maybe f-tilt on away DI in there somewhere.

 

[Perfecthell4]

Extremely useful information, thanks a bunch.

 

[TacoLord9000]

I need to be using a lot more up throws it looks like. If only Zelda wasn't nerfed in 1.02 for no reason.

 

[ikrager]

I need to be using a lot more up throws it looks like. If only Zelda wasn't nerfed in 1.02 for no reason.

Nerfed? I've looked everywhere, I haven't seen anywhere say that she was nerfed in 1.02. Sheik was changed but Zelda was left alone.

 

[comics]

Nerfed? I've looked everywhere, I haven't seen anywhere say that she was nerfed in 1.02. Sheik was changed but Zelda was left alone.

Zelda was "nerfed" because a lot of her moves can be SDI'd out of in 1.02 (which also is the case for some moves that Samus and YL/Link have along with possibly a few other characters). That aspect of 1.02 was the stupidest move on the developers part, since it only effected characters that aren't even too amazing.

Her literal stats aren't technically different, though (that I know of).
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Spoo]

I never knew that Zelda had a chain grab.

 

[NJzFinest]

Someone give me the run down of ICs vs Zelda.

The only semi recent videos is Dizzkidboogie beating Upke and destroying TheLake twice. I heard TheManaLord was able to beat Dizzkid.

 

[Plunder]

So I discovered that Zelda has a fully invincible Ledgehopstall?

This isn't in the Wiki or anywhere else I could find.

Is this common knowledge or am I crazy? She has a similar shallow DJ and floaty FF speed as Gannon that seems to allow it (also seems to have a bit larger ledge grab range).

I was recording in training mode and even found that you can FF then backwards DJ > snap to the ledge from pretty far away within the 29-30 frame window. There appears to be a frame of lenience, and she's tilt jumping away from ledge so her hurtbox is safe from most grounded edge attacks until she snaps to the ledge (in case you mess up the timing).

 

[ikrager]

So I discovered that Zelda has a fully invincible Ledgehopstall?

This isn't in the Wiki or anywhere else I could find.

Is this common knowledge or am I crazy? She has a similar shallow DJ and floaty FF speed as Gannon that seems to allow it (also seems to have a bit larger ledge grab range).

I was recording in training mode and even found that you can FF then backwards DJ > snap to the ledge from pretty far away within the 29-30 frame window. There appears to be a frame of lenience, and she's tilt jumping away from ledge so her hurtbox is safe from most grounded edge attacks until she snaps to the ledge (in case you mess up the timing).

Anyway you could record it to show what you mean?

 

[HermitHelmet]

Anyway you could record it to show what you mean?

This.

Is this better/easier than her invincible ledgestall with Up-B?

 

[Plunder]

I can't even comprehend how this would be hard to understand. It's exactly as I said above, but perhaps I've done it for a while so it just makes sense to me.

1. You FF
2. You DJ while tilting slightly back to fadeaway (this makes Zelda do her lean back DJ)
3. Snap to ledge from max distance

If you time it right it's 29 frames, same lenience in frames as Up-B ledge stall. Fully invincible.

EDIT - There is another ledge stall variant that I forgot to include, just tested it and confirmed.

1. Let go
2. Immediately DJ straight up
3. FF as soon as possible
4. Grab ledge still invincible

I would say anyone could do the Up-B ledge stall (Wind stall), since it's quite easy. But to do fully invincible Wind Stall constantly and consistently I'd say not many actually are technical enough to do it properly.

The ledge hop stall is another option (and it allows you to be actionable through-out instead of forced animation > re-grabbing like Wind Stall), more difficult to pull off back to back for most I imagine, but if accidentally not done fully invincible it has a better hurtbox placement for people attacking the lip (Wind Stall can spread your hurtbox out far and near the ledge, easy to hit). It also has no hitbox on it if you want to refresh but do not want to accidently hit them which can lead to a failed edge guard.

The main point is that I've been told in the past that Zelda doesn't have a fully invincible ledgehopstall, and there is no data or info on the wiki or this site that seems to state otherwise. But I've tested it now in 20xx and it is possible in 2 ways. In a realistic setting you don't have more than a frame of lenience so it's as tight as the fully Inv. Wind Stall we all know.

 

[Habilecho]

Someone give me the run down of ICs vs Zelda.

The only semi recent videos is Dizzkidboogie beating Upke and destroying TheLake twice. I heard TheManaLord was able to beat Dizzkid.

Basically Zelda needs to wait until IC's present themselves to an opening (as with most matchups), but once you separate them (which a kick/f-smash can consistently do), then nana is p free to ko. Zelda v sopo is a lot better, but you still need to watch their ground movement since they can come in any time. If you shield the d-smash you can kick punish like you would fox's u-smash.

Nayru's love is also decent at separating them but leaves you very open to getting grabbed afterward if they don't get caught. Then you die. It's one of those once to twice a set moves just to mix it up. It's also decent as a recover onto stage tech to throw the timing off.

You need to mix up who you are attacking when the climbers are separated. Good IC's will punish you for attacking only nana. d-smash is very strong at keeping them separated when you are standing between them. Just face towards the popo most of the time since they want to attack you, and nana won't when she's behind you. Plus the d-smash can hit behind zelda in case nana tries to run straight through.

Camp the platforms. don't get grabbed. All the other stuff you're supposed to do against IC's. Be creative with the platform movement though. Have a lot of mixups as IC's are very used to reading the platform movement. Always be ready for an approach and know what hitboxes will counter said approach. wavedash -> f-smash if they try to come from center -> platform.

If they are under the platform, you can dropzone kick them, but be wary of the u-smash from them. I retreat to top platform mostly when they are directly beneath me. dropzone kick is very good though as they are approaching to get into the position of being below you. Always mind the spacing of their wavedash so you don't drop into the u-smash.

If you are both on the ground then empty jump/kick mixups are great. Just jumping can exude enough pressure against IC's since the kick is so devastating. If they blizzard you out you have another jump, so don't double jump preemptively unless you are already moving away. Wavelands are also great to create extra space after empty/kicked jumps.

If you do get grabbed SDI up and pray you get away. Maybe nair to get a tickle on them and separate???

If you grab them always d-throw since it has another hitbox from the sparkles.

That's the gist of it. Obviously there's a lot more to it but this is the ground level tech to know about.