the secret zelda strats discussionzone

Cosmo!

nerf zelda's dsmash
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situation:

you are somewhat offstage against cfalcon and must use upB to recover
falcon is grabbing ledge

your options:

Teleport to ground ->

z shield -> he will grab you
spot dodge -> he will grab you
roll -> he will grab you
dsmash -> he will grab you
fsmash -> he will grab you
jump -> he will be at a positional advantage

Teleport up and use the 4 frame recovery ->
he will probably snipe you with a knee before you touch ground

teleport to ledge ->
risk death

what the hell do I do. it seems like in my head jumping is the best thing to do but idk

on platform stages it is easier to escape
 

GKInfinity

Smash Champion
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Modesto CA
So yeah, if you're talking about being on fd or fod when the side platorms are gone (or another stage where teleporting to platforms isn't an option given your situation) you obviously have slightly fewer options. Platforms won't necessarily save you anyway though haha. Falcon's pretty damn fast.

-Teleporting to the ledge seems like an option where you'll die pretty much every time. There's no hitbox and falcon's will typically hog it until they see you appear. If you're appearing at the ledge he'll just stay there until you've fallen far enough to where there's no way you're gonna grab it. I would never do this option unless I've noticed my opponent giving up edge hogs prematurely several times earlier in a match.

-Teleporting up will pretty much always result in a knee to the face, like you said. There's just slightly too much falling lag.

-As far as the teleporting to the ground options go however, I'm not really sure. I'm assuming that you're suggesting teleporting downwards at the ground and then doing each indicated option directly afterwards though.

-Shielding, spot dodging, and rolling are not effective options because as you said, you will get grabbed

-Do fsmash/dsmash not work simply because they're too slow and he can grab you before the hitboxes come out?

-Jumping does seem like the best option. What about dashing away after landing and then jumping in the direction away from falcon very soon afterwards? If he does go in for something it seems like you'd be able to land a kick.

The best way to solve this problem is just to avoid getting offstage in the first place lol.

Don't get hit. :D
 

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
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Recovering with Zelda is like a losing guessing game...

From the past 2 posts I think we can safely say that the best option is go for the stage and hope for the best with whatever option you choose after that (dashing away, jumping, bair, smash attack).

I personally feel that dashing away into a sh bair could work well enough, maybe a dash away pivot dsmash or fsmash, or nayru's love lol

You could just upb again? Teleport? Maybe?

:phone:
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
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what the hell do I do. it seems like in my head jumping is the best thing to do but idk
first off, assuming falcon will stay on the edge, so risking death = death outright. second, assume the falcon will ledge hop upair knee or grab at reasonable % or just ledge hop fair at kill %. if you eliminate the less effective options, you can just prepare for the good options and capitalize off of the opponent when they choose strictly weaker options.

third, use the shorted recovery. Both sheik and zelda can do this, but if you teleport into the edge such that her knees hit the edge going either straight horizontal or up at an angle, you should land on or near the edge having gone over the lip with reduced landing lag and it cuts the difference of the distance. falcon can't wait to see that you're not going to the edge and still have time to punish it with a ledge hop anything unless he predicts it, and even then it's pretty much reduced to only grab.
 

Cosmo!

nerf zelda's dsmash
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that is really interesting because in my mind I feel like I want to upB as high up as possible to give myself a larger amount of positions to teleport to on-stage (which isn't too useful against falcon's crazy dash) I never thought about purposefully falling further in order to do the ledge trick, but in this circumstance it might be the best option ??

zelda's recovery against fox is better than against falcon because fox's grab doesn't pose nearly as much threat
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
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that is really interesting because in my mind I feel like I want to upB as high up as possible to give myself a larger amount of positions to teleport to on-stage (which isn't too useful against falcon's crazy dash) I never thought about purposefully falling further in order to do the ledge trick, but in this circumstance it might be the best option ??

zelda's recovery against fox is better than against falcon because fox's grab doesn't pose nearly as much threat
any fox worth a damn would just stand/led hop and shine combo and kill you anyway. EC foxes used to do this cool edge guard vs zelda and sheik where it'd be forced land > shine you to the other side of the stage > downsmash > get on the edge repeat.

I wish you had most of your experience vs a fox that felt like watching you fight lasers. rather than kels who runs at you 90% of the time or stupid foxes that you time out. even when you win, some of your matches are really frustrating to watch.

you don't have to fall further to do that ledge trick with zelda's up B. if you do it right, it cuts off the remainder of the distance for you regardless of where you start it. i guess you could do a lower sharper angel to avoid falcon chasing you off the stage, but the only falcon I'm guessing you have problems with (darkrain) is more likely to kill himself than you if he goes off the stage anyway.

CP darkrain to yoshi story, it's dangerous cause he's good but he goes low and suicides like 2 stocks every match and falcon can't DD camp there for **** anyway.
 

Cosmo!

nerf zelda's dsmash
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what i mean by the fox thing is that there are many situations in which you can get the shield up in time. against falcon this is a big problem but against fox you can just DI his upthrow
 
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Somehow my situation is backwards. I can get out of Falcon's dthrow > stuff most of the time but I'm never able to DI Fox's uthrow... as Peach. I never play vs Fox as Zelda
 

Maxwell Too Swell

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
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Thank you Based Mimi
situation:

you are somewhat offstage against cfalcon and must use upB to recover
falcon is grabbing ledge

your options:

Teleport to ground ->

z shield -> he will grab you
spot dodge -> he will grab you
roll -> he will grab you
dsmash -> he will grab you
fsmash -> he will grab you
jump -> he will be at a positional advantage

Teleport up and use the 4 frame recovery ->
he will probably snipe you with a knee before you touch ground

teleport to ledge ->
risk death

what the hell do I do. it seems like in my head jumping is the best thing to do but idk

on platform stages it is easier to escape
I guess the best thing to do would be to figure out if the Falcon has some kind of pattern to how they want to punish you. Otherwise I would just mix it up with your recoveries, but I agree this part of the match up is really frustrating. If you teleport into the ground far enough away from the ledge would you be able to reset your situation fast enough? I practice these sort of things with my friend who has a good Falcon.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
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Nov 17, 2002
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what i mean by the fox thing is that there are many situations in which you can get the shield up in time. against falcon this is a big problem but against fox you can just DI his upthrow
this is where I tell you that a real fox would have shot you to 85 and did a lot of run in and block looking for an easy upsmash oos. or even if we're going to surmise that fox is upthrowing you, he can just wait and react to what do you since zelda can't defend herself from fox in the air at all.

I still think the foxes you play with are way too nice to you. i guess i just find it mindblowing that things like shield and DI help in any way since that character can just circumvent all of them freely.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
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how is fox going to get a free upsmash oos kill on zelda?

maybe he'll chase your roll with an upsmash, or maybe he will catch your upB to stage with a ledgehop uair, but he won't kill you with upsmash oos very often

i take a lot of stocks from fox players who hit my shield with an upsmash, then i kick them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iys1krZy7qg
fox ledge hop upair doesn't work if you do the recovery trick i outlined earlier for the same reason falcon's ledge hop knee doesn't work.

upsmash oos is easy for fox vs zelda, you just run in and block. zelda absolutely has to respond to fox's advance since it could lead to other pressure (grab or aerial shine pressure) and zelda can't effectively do anything out of shield (grab/upsmash/aerial) vs fox's close pressure game so it's best to respond to the first approach. then fox can simply run in and block and look for easy upsmash opportunities oos since zelda is slow. I mean sure you can retreating bair on his shield or something but all that does is...give you a chance to **** up the spacing and get upsmashed anyway. This entire scenario also assumes that the fox is generous and even runs in towards you in the first place, which he completely doesn't have to do in any way.

Apparently I'm the only fox player here. I reiterate for the 900th time that any fox that you kick their upsmash oos is a fox that LET you kick them oos. The only reason fox is broken in the first place is because he can choose when to attack and any char below falcon on the tier list can do NOTHING about it, ESPECIALLY one as slow as zelda. Fox's upsmash oos is a very strong kill strategy vs good characters that can avoid it, and zelda's limited mobility, **** grab speed and light weight aren't helping.
 

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
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Le sigh

Fox can be one of those match-ups I guess.

Hey umbreon, I heard from the bird man that you said Falco's uptilt on zelda's shield should always get Falco kicked, is this true? So far I've free really good punishes of it, but i was Really wondering if the same goes for fox's utilt?

:phone:
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
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Nov 17, 2002
Messages
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well, i started by testing falcon's up B oos vs sheik's ftilt for someone else. it turns out falcon can up B sheik's ftilt oos pretty easily, which has...basically no practical application but is still funny. then i tested it on falco/fox uptilt and he can still do it. then i tried zelda kick and it seems to be about the same. the thing that makes them risky is that a shine after the tilt seriously kills any error, and I'm also not sure it's frame-tight since I have no practical way to test it.

on a practical level, I'd probably never challenge any of falco's moves directly like that, it's simply not the optimal choice unless you're sure and it's much better for zelda to challenge them indirectly with the old WD back fsmash type of thing. I guess I trade with her dash attack fairly often or say I'll try to kick ganon's fist on his fair, but I'm just trying to be general.
 

Umbreon

Moonlight Pokémon
Joined
Nov 17, 2002
Messages
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Bring on the goods GOTM

lol lazer till death by upsmash OOS eh?

I wanna **** your fox with my zelda mow :D
lol, everyone else in PA would be jealous to beat my fox with top tiers. i'm a smidgen harder than naka and taki.
 
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