The SBR wants your help to hack Brawl for a potential project in the future!

[IWuvGeno]

There's way too much to account for. Make it a separate project. A Brawl Balancing project should only make the minorest changes in characters possible to balance them.

In my mind this needs to be one project, simply because making the tweaks that I have suggested would require balancing. MK would certainly be one of the prime suspects for said balancing.

Making certain gameplay changes would also attract the biggest crowd, as it aims to take Brawl to the highest level of competition.

 

[Turbo Ether]

SBR.. why are you stationed at the cesspool of smash brothers fans? not only are they stupid, they tend to suck at the game.

also can you just lock out people from posting in this thread? i was all giddy seeing it 8 pages long just to be annoyed with a plethora of whining and moaning.


oh nintendo how you attract the worst.

Exactly this. Ludicrous amounts of bad/useless posts in these short eight pages. This thread is good for spreading the word to the people with the know-how and letting people know what's in the works, but the most constructive input will come from the SBR, not General Brawl Discussion(aka GAMEFAQS).

 

[Judge Judy]

My problem is that even though this is planned to simply be a kind of side event, it could easily turn it to something more. How much control can we really expect the SBR to have over something like this?

 

[Mmac]

You know, I wish there was a Room (Thats not the SBR) where stuff is this is posted and actual Intelligent people can actually join and discuss orderly without other idiots screwing things up. The amount of spamage and negatively of this just baffles me, not to mention the people who post the same thing hundreds of times but already clearly covered.

 

[stingers]

My problem is that even though this is planned to simply be a kind of side event, it could easily turn it to something more. How much control can we really expect the SBR to have over something like this?

The same amount of control the SBR has now...

They make the standard rule lists and standard stage lists and the tier list, but TOs have a right to ignore them and make their own rules.

Making these hacks won't change anything in that department.

Edit: Mmac, you just described, word-for-word, the SBR.

If you're intelligent, you'll get in the SBR and won't have to deal with all of this.

 

[Toneh]

sounds good if its character balancing. Hopefully people can figure out the codes.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Wow. Can I get the IQ points I lost reading this back?

The point of patching is to change the balancing, not to change the underlying playstyle. Why would people who don't have their wii hacked want to practice? Are you that dense? You go to a tournament where the wii's are hacked, then go home and practiced on an unhacked Wii.

You want people to be able to use their existing playstyles with only slight modification. NOT have to relearn their character with and without hacks.

Please think before you call people stupid...as hard as thinking may be for you.

how can you change the balancing without altering the playstyle you dirty git? obviously things like snake's ftilt are going to be altered... in such a way that they won't be abused so much. how can you expect these kinds of changes not to affect how you're going to play a character? with such patches you're going to NEED a hacked wii at home. which by the way takes 10 minutes of your time.

 

[Judge Judy]

The same amount of control the SBR has now...

They make the standard rule lists and standard stage lists and the tier list, but TOs have a right to ignore them and make their own rules.

Making these hacks won't change anything.

As long as the SBR can retain control and is completely prepared for this, I'm fine with it.

 

[Greenstreet]

@Almost everyone Last time I check the OP, this was a thread asking for help with a potential project that the SBR is wanting to work upon.

Potential: po·ten·tial /pəˈtɛnʃəl/ [puh-ten-shuhl]

–adjective 1. possible, as opposed to actual: the potential uses of nuclear energy.

This means it isn't a sure thing guys. I don't think it deserves this much negative attention due to it just being potential.

SBR: Smash Back Room, only members that have shown considerable knowledge or skill (either by posting intelligently or by tournament placement) are permitted to read and discuss in this forum. The Smash Back Room is most famous for producing a tier list every year or so.

This means that they are probably more qualified to make a decision regarding the game than you Mr John N00by N00b. Lol, just kidding. What I am getting at here is they aren't exactly stupid. They don'y lunge into decisions without thinking. Time has been put into planning whether to do this or not. So cut them some slack. The topic doesn't ask for opinion or debate on the topic, but if your desperate, apply to be a debater. What it is asking for is help... and ranting about how it shouldn't be done doesn't fill that requirement. Sorry, better luck next time. I'm sure it may have already met some debate back in the SBR, but here, it's looking for interested people to help. Not whingers.

Sure, they may change the game up, and it may suck afterward. Or it might be awesome. If it sucks, scrap it. If it's awesome, play it if you want to. No-one is forcing this to effect you, so stop acting like it is.

</mini-rant>

EDIT: Holey dooley, I am never going to post again. 1337.

 

[Kinzer]

Let's all go play World of Warcraft. At least it's like Nintendo, Blizzard Entertainment has a good game on their hands, but instead they actually bother to listen to the customers.

 

[Judge Judy]

@Almost everyone Last time I check the OP, this was a thread asking for help with a potential project that the SBR is wanting to work upon.

Potential: po·ten·tial /pəˈtɛnʃəl/ [puh-ten-shuhl]

–adjective 1. possible, as opposed to actual: the potential uses of nuclear energy.

This means it isn't a sure thing guys. I don't think it deserves this much negative attention due to it just being potential.

SBR: Smash Back Room, only members that have shown considerable knowledge or skill (either by posting intelligently or by tournament placement) are permitted to read and discuss in this forum. The Smash Back Room is most famous for producing a tier list every year or so.

This means that they are probably more qualified to make a decision regarding the game than you Mr John N00by N00b. Lol, just kidding. What I am getting at here is they aren't exactly stupid. They don'y lunge into decisions without thinking. Time has been put into planning whether to do this or not. So cut them some slack.

Sure, they may change the game up, and it may suck afterward. Or it might be awesome. If it sucks, scrap it. If it's awesome, play it if you want to. No-one is forcing this to effect you, so stop acting like it is.

</mini-rant>

I do not believe them to be and I deeply respect their judgment, but recently the tempo of their decision-making has seemed a bit rushed and I do not want to see a disaster occur because the SBR made a few rushed decisions.

 

[Greenstreet]

I do not believe them to be and I deeply respect their judgment, but recently the tempo of their decision-making has seemed a bit rushed and I do not want to see a disaster occur because the SBR made a few rushed decisions.

Sorry but unless you can provide examples I am not likely to put any more thought into your post. I'm not in there and neither are you, so I doubt either of us are qualified to make assumptions on their decision-making.

Also:

Sure, they may change the game up, and it may suck afterward. Or it might be awesome. If it sucks, scrap it. If it's awesome, play it if you want to. No-one is forcing this to effect you, so stop acting like it is.

Ultimately, if the majority of this community hates it, (if it even comes out) it won't be played and we'll jump back to the normal one. Where's the issue here? How will a disaster (in reality) occur? No one is forcing you to play it (assuming it will one day exist).

 

[Mmac]

Edit: Mmac, you just described, word-for-word, the SBR.

If you're intelligent, you'll get in the SBR and won't have to deal with all of this.

I meant just a group that only accepts intelligent people, and keeps the spammers and idiots out. the SBR only allows the best of the best.

By the looks of this is going, they are most likely put this out back to the SBR. I do not want this to happen because I, along with others, want to voice their opinion for a project this major.

At the same time, it's a complete mess where our opinions will probably won't be heard due to all the people saying that this is a waste of time, Blizzard > Nintendo, Sonic doesn't need to be Buffed, Melee 2.0! Ect. Ect.


Also exactly what harm would Balancing the characters do? Really? Brawl is a freaken mess! MetaKnight is broken as hell, There's infinites everywhere, and some characters are just unplayable! Won't you like MetaKnight not be broken, and people like Captain Falcon actually playable?

 

[Swoops]

I'm actually completely supportive of this project. It'll be pretty cool to see how it turns out, it we can get certain start up times changed, cooldowns changed on moves, damage increased etc. It feels like true balance patching and not something to appeal to everyone who wants it Melee 2.0 or wants certain things fixed that they feel is right.

Namco right now is completely on top of releasing patches for SC IV, granted some of them might not be the best choices, but they are working hard to make it a balanced game. Since nintendo or sakurai will never release any sort of balanced version or patched version of brawl, it would be nice for us as a community to fix some issues with Brawl. The problem with that is it's going to take a hell of a lot of organization and cooperation to arrange and agree on the fixes.

I'm all for the balance patches...definitely not for l-canceling or WDing...both of which are unnecessary.

 

[IWuvGeno]

I do not believe them to be and I deeply respect their judgment, but recently the tempo of their decision-making has seemed a bit rushed and I do not want to see a disaster occur because the SBR made a few rushed decisions.

Honestly, I have no idea what you mean by 'disaster'. This is Brawl we're talking about.

 

[Judge Judy]

Sorry but unless you can provide examples I am not likely to put any more thought into your post. I'm not in there and neither are you, so I doubt either of us are qualified to make assumptions on their decision-making.

That's true, which is why I've been asking for specific reasoning than simply wanting to try and make the game "better". Maybe we should wait and see what happens, maybe not. Again, I have no problem with the idea itself as long as things do not go "arwy".

 

[Kinzer]

Blizzard > Nintendo

I'm one person, and right now, can you honestly tell me that isn't true?

No really, they freaking balance the classes, and the game used to be more hardcore before they released the expansion, they ARE Nintendo + the customer service, the monthly fee, and WoW units gamers/nerds/people. Unlike Brawl where people are arguing about how much better/worse it is than Melee, how much Wi-Fi sucks, and how infrequent certain characters are being used (Who is actually out there seriously using Captain Falcon competitively?)

 

[Thinkaman]

Urrrg, why did you go public with this Panda? This is going to cause more harm than good; already people are having emotional reactions to this and demanding various changes to their characters of choice.

After talking to you at WTON, I wrote up a journal in notepad of how I would change each character. I posted the intro online and sat on the rest to prevent fueling speculation. Guess I'll post the rest now...

Regardless, there are a few issues that need to be kept in mind if such is ever to be considered realistic.

1. Distribution must be streamlined; I already nagged leeharris a bit about details, I assume we'd create a simple custom Smash bootloader channel. I'm going to try to make a primitive test build tomorrow.

2. Changes to gameplay must be such that transition to and from the alternate standard is transparent as possible. Nothing will be adopted if there is any major conflict in timing or spacing that players learn between vanilla and modified.

Ideally, *all* changes would be to damage.
Changes to knockback or character weight would only be made if changes to damage can not properly create the desired effect.
Changes to startup and ending lag times should be used rarely, only when absolutely needed.
Changes to move duration, hitbox size, and character movement should never be used.

If players cannot freely move between vanilla and modified, the project is an immediate and unquestionable failure.

3. There is a limit to how much we can change at once, due to only being able to load a finite amount of code. Currently that's 256 lines... There are 39 characters in the game, so that's about 6 lines of code for each. And that's BEFORE any major global changes, stuff like no tripping takes a few lines too! The wavedashing codes (obviously we'd never use such, but as an example) are over 80 lines!

We need to make as few changes to as few characters as possible. I want Ganondorf's Up-B uppercut to kill at 40% and Jigglypuff's down-throw to do more damage, but there are bigger fish to fry. "Global" changes like weight are going to be more efficient code-wise than tweaking an array of attacks. One day we might be able to make hundreds of changes at once, but for the time being, any discussion on hacking characters must be focused on patching them rather than reinventing them.

4. The discussion of any modified standard would have to be... controlled. I'm still shocked that this thread exists; the reaction to this alone is going to be a potential nightmare... We simply can't have hundreds of individual, personal modification proposals flooding the boards, nor can we let the sub-forums go from discussing characters in vanilla brawl to modification demands. Community input is one thing, spam is another. The law will have to be laid down, stickies created, and rules enforced. Handled poorly, this could create a situation that makes "Melee vs. Brawl" look like a tea party.

The last lines of that journal I mentioned contained the following:

- The only sane approach would be casual: "The SBR has created this; it has no impact on the current SBR ruleset, and is provided only as an experiemental curiosity."
- Side-tournaments using the hacked standard would be widely observed and carefully evaluated.
- TOs and the SBR would use data collected from side tourneys to make decisions as to the future of the community and tourneys.

There is an ancedote I would like to conclude with. You may be familar with Bethesda's TES RPG "Oblivion". Out of the box, Oblivion was one of the poorest examples of game balance of all time. Every enemy was automatically set to the same level as the player, all items were also scaled by level, and many other issues. The mod community rushed en mass to balance the game themselves, and ended up tripping over each other; mods fixing one thing were incompatible with mods fixing another, modders weren't sure what others were changing, things were overbuffed and overnerfed, it was mass chaos that resulted in a game typically being worse than the original. One day however, a community member named Oscuro came and established a single massive mod called "OOO". It was developed continuously with input from a large number of testers and mod creators, all according to Oscuro's single, unified design. What resulted was Oblivion becoming one of the greatest RPGs of all time.

Brawl may not need fixing like Oblivion did, but the SBR as an entity is still capable of playing the role of Oscuro if they so choose. My opinion? There's no reason against working on a secret, experiemental version of Brawl in the SBR dungeon laboratories. Just, for the love of Brawl General Discussion, don't let anyone forget the "secret" part.

Looks like secret is out the window. Well... guess I've got a blog to go post.

 

[Napilopez]

As to what I posted, I only pointed out legitimate issues I see with this. I'm not even bashing anyone, even if I disagree. More than anything I just want to know how exactly they'll make this work, because so far it hasn't clearly been indicated how.

EDIT: Wow, I posted this right after a very intelligent post above mine. A smash bootloader channel actually sounds quite neat. Even if I disagree with this whole biz, at least that shows how this could be more properly distributed.

 

[ice-]

1) You just put it on an SD card then transfer it over to the Wii. It's very basic, there's step-by-step tutorials on Smashboards and everything.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199810

2) They don't need it before the event, as I said, it could be done on-site. The TO would just have to go around to every Wii and transfer the stuff over. Probably 5 minutes per Wii, it's very simple. Could be very easily done during the friendlies before the event.

yes they would, to actually know what the **** was going on in the game and practice, they would >_<

 

[Mmac]

I'm one person, and right now, can you honestly tell me that isn't true?

I never said it wasn't. In fact, I agree with you! However this has completely no relevance to this topic or the discussion

 

[Judge Judy]

Urrrg, why did you go public with this Panda? This is going to cause more harm than good; already people are having emotional reactions to this and demanding various changes to their characters of choice.

After talking to you at WTON, I wrote up a journal in notepad of how I would change each character. I posted the intro online and sat on the rest to prevent fueling speculation. Guess I'll post the rest now...

Regardless, there are a few issues that need to be kept in mind if such is ever to be considered realistic.

1. Distribution must be streamlined; I already nagged leeharris a bit about details, I assume we'd create a simple custom Smash bootloader channel. I'm going to try to make a primitive test build tomorrow.

2. Changes to gameplay must be such that transition to and from the alternate standard is transparent as possible. Nothing will be adopted if there is any major conflict in timing or spacing that players learn between vanilla and modified.

Ideally, *all* changes would be to damage.
Changes to knockback or character weight would only be made if changes to damage can not properly create the desired effect.
Changes to startup and ending lag times should be used rarely, only when absolutely needed.
Changes to move duration, hitbox size, and character movement should never be used.

If players cannot freely move between vanilla and modified, the project is an immediate and unquestionable failure.

3. There is a limit to how much we can change at once, due to only being able to load a finite amount of code. Currently that's 256 lines... There are 39 characters in the game, so that's about 6 lines of code for each. And that's BEFORE any major global changes, stuff like no tripping takes a few lines too! The wavedashing codes (obviously we'd never use such, but as an example) are over 80 lines!

We need to make as few changes to as few characters as possible. I want Ganondorf's Up-B uppercut to kill at 40% and Jigglypuff's down-throw to do more damage, but there are bigger fish to fry. "Global" changes like weight are going to be more efficient code-wise than tweaking an array of attacks. One day we might be able to make hundreds of changes at once, but for the time being, any discussion on hacking characters must be focused on patching them rather than reinventing them.

4. The discussion of any modified standard would have to be... controlled. I'm still shocked that this thread exists; the reaction to this alone is going to be a potential nightmare... We simply can't have hundreds of individual, personal modification proposals flooding the boards, nor can we let the sub-forums go from discussing characters in vanilla brawl to modification demands. Community input is one thing, spam is another. The law will have to be laid down, stickies created, and rules enforced. Handled poorly, this could create a situation that makes "Melee vs. Brawl" look like a tea party.

Well... guess I've got a blog to go post.

Again, my thoughts exactly. A certain amount of human error is acceptable for the SBR, but the community itself has to draw the line somewhere. This is a good idea but is the SBR ready to start a project like this?

 

[Kinzer]

I never said it wasn't. In fact, I agree with you! However this has completely no relevance to this topic or the discussion

I suppose you're right...it was just a stupid joke mocking at how "half-baked" and "abandonded" Brawl feels at the moment, I'll just take my bow out of here.

Edit: On second thought, I'm going to tell you how this one quoted post is not the same standard with Brawl...

- The only sane approach would be casual: "The SBR has created this; it has no impact on the current SBR ruleset, and is provided only as an experiemental curiosity."
- Side-tournaments using the hacked standard would be widely observed and carefully evaluated.
- TOs and the SBR would use data collected from side tourneys to make decisions as to the future of the community and tourneys.

There is an ancedote I would like to conclude with. You may be familar with Bethesda's TES RPG "Oblivion". Out of the box, Oblivion was one of the poorest examples of game balance of all time. Every enemy was automatically set to the same level as the player, all items were also scaled by level, and many other issues. The mod community rushed en mass to balance the game themselves, and ended up tripping over each other; mods fixing one thing were incompatible with mods fixing another, modders weren't sure what others were changing, things were overbuffed and overnerfed, it was mass chaos that resulted in a game typically being worse than the original. One day however, a community member named Oscuro came and established a single massive mod called "OOO". It was developed continuously with input from a large number of testers and mod creators, all according to Oscuro's single, unified design. What resulted was Oblivion becoming one of the greatest RPGs of all time.

Brawl may not need fixing like Oblivion did, but the SBR as an entity is still capable of playing the role of Oscuro if they so choose. My opinion? There's no reason against working on a secret, experiemental version of Brawl in the SBR dungeon laboratories. Just, for the love of Brawl General Discussion, don't let anyone forget the "secret" part.

Yeah, that's a great story with a happy ending, but our only problem is NINTENDO HAS APPARENTLY GIVEN UP ON BRAWL!!!!! A community can only do so much to a game, but they need the help of the origonal game desginers to make any of this successful.

 

[Greenstreet]

In conclusion: I think my previous posts stand for enough reasoning for the flaming of this thread to stop. But unfortunately, the next x number of pages will still be filled with users posting the same arguments as the first pages did (probably because the either didn't read said pages, or just don't care). And that is what makes SWF a bit of a problem starter. People see reactions to topics and then subsequently get unneccesarily passionate about a mundane topic.

In this case, the odds are that this project will not effect you. Why?

1. You are a n00b casual gamer and are unlikely to go to a tournament and you just like posting so you can be heard. In this case, be reasonable, you don't even need an opinion on this topic at this time.

2. You are a hardcore gamer and love Brawl how it is. If this is the case, then maybe your community also hates the new 'balanced' version. In which your community can just have tourneys without it. SBR isn't the law lol.

3. The project itself realisticly would be very hard to complete/distribute.

So please leave this thread for actual people who want to help.
But like I said, people won't read this and be making the same arguments in a pages time.

 

[Napilopez]

My suggestion is that anyone who wants to contribute to this follow Thinkman's guidelines and discuss. Those who will be blatantly negative should perhaps create another thread discussing the practicality of implementation of said hacks. I still agree, but I don't see the point in continuing to be negative about it in this thead. I may come off as a hypocrite because of my first post in this thread, but my opinions haven't changed. Just don't thinkt heres any sense arguing against it in this specific thread anymore, and Thinkman did set very clear and not as scary guidelines. I wholeheartedly DISAGREE with this, but I do accept not everyone does.

What changes would you make? I for one think that MKs move should have more ENDING lag. that way they can start up quick and still look like MK has speed, but the ending lag would make him much less of a threat.

EDIT: I'm with greenstreet. I think the limitations of this had to be settled first, but theres no point in arguing about it in this thread anymore. If you do want to discuss the implementation of this, make another thread.

 

[Thinkaman]

We are going to need to isolate discussion on this into separate topics quick if anything productive is going to happen. What is technologically possible is one issue, what we want to actually change in the game is another, and the politics of agreeing what to do in the long term is yet one more.

It is absurd to discuss long term prospects at all at this point, including random opinions on whether modifications are "good" or "bad". Discussion should be limited strictly to the first two.

 

[ice-]

Also, we are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.

Urrrg, why did you go public with this Panda? This is going to cause more harm than good; already people are having emotional reactions to this and demanding various changes to their characters of choice.

After talking to you at WTON, I wrote up a journal in notepad of how I would change each character. I posted the intro online and sat on the rest to prevent fueling speculation. Guess I'll post the rest now...

Regardless, there are a few issues that need to be kept in mind if such is ever to be considered realistic.

1. Distribution must be streamlined; I already nagged leeharris a bit about details, I assume we'd create a simple custom Smash bootloader channel. I'm going to try to make a primitive test build tomorrow.

2. Changes to gameplay must be such that transition to and from the alternate standard is transparent as possible. Nothing will be adopted if there is any major conflict in timing or spacing that players learn between vanilla and modified.

Ideally, *all* changes would be to damage.
Changes to knockback or character weight would only be made if changes to damage can not properly create the desired effect.
Changes to startup and ending lag times should be used rarely, only when absolutely needed.
Changes to move duration, hitbox size, and character movement should never be used.

If players cannot freely move between vanilla and modified, the project is an immediate and unquestionable failure.

3. There is a limit to how much we can change at once, due to only being able to load a finite amount of code. Currently that's 256 lines... There are 39 characters in the game, so that's about 6 lines of code for each. And that's BEFORE any major global changes, stuff like no tripping takes a few lines too! The wavedashing codes (obviously we'd never use such, but as an example) are over 80 lines!

We need to make as few changes to as few characters as possible. I want Ganondorf's Up-B uppercut to kill at 40% and Jigglypuff's down-throw to do more damage, but there are bigger fish to fry. "Global" changes like weight are going to be more efficient code-wise than tweaking an array of attacks. One day we might be able to make hundreds of changes at once, but for the time being, any discussion on hacking characters must be focused on patching them rather than reinventing them.

4. The discussion of any modified standard would have to be... controlled. I'm still shocked that this thread exists; the reaction to this alone is going to be a potential nightmare... We simply can't have hundreds of individual, personal modification proposals flooding the boards, nor can we let the sub-forums go from discussing characters in vanilla brawl to modification demands. Community input is one thing, spam is another. The law will have to be laid down, stickies created, and rules enforced. Handled poorly, this could create a situation that makes "Melee vs. Brawl" look like a tea party.

The last lines of that journal I mentioned contained the following:



Looks like secret is out the window. Well... guess I've got a blog to go post.

If you were going to do it, this is how you should have done it. This thread is not going to help you cause and will only lead to pissed off people. Also, you prob should have mentioned in the orginal post in huge red letters that it will not be the standard. Panda, I think the idea is not a bad one but this thread is a failure.

I am not really against this as long as its not the standard.

 

[Judge Judy]

In conclusion: I think my previous posts stand for enough reasoning for the flaming of this thread to stop. But unfortunately, the next x number of pages will still be filled with users posting the same arguments as the first pages did (probably because the either didn't read said pages, or just don't care). And that is what makes SWF a bit of a problem starter. People see reactions to topics and then subsequently get unneccesarily passionate about a mundane topic.

In this case, the odds are that this project will not effect you. Why?

1. You are a n00b casual gamer and are unlikely to go to a tournament and you just like posting so you can be heard. In this case, be reasonable, you don't even need an opinion on this topic at this time.

2. You are a hardcore gamer and love Brawl how it is. If this is the case, then maybe your community also hates the new 'balanced' version. In which your community can just have tourneys without it. SBR isn't the law lol.

3. The project itself realisticly would be very hard to complete/distribute.

So please leave this thread for actual people who want to help.
But like I said, people won't read this and be making the same arguments in a pages time.

My thoughts and reactions are not for how they directly affect me, but how they affect the community as a whole. While this particular decision may not be the breaking point of disaster, why perpetuate a growing trend? However, to confirm to your point, I will take my discussions of such elsewhere.

 

[Greenstreet]

@ All the debaters for and against this project I have just asked McFox whether it would be suitable to create a thread for the debate of this topic, as continuing here is hindering the projects development and possibly scaring away users who can genuinely assist with the SBR's Balancing Project. So please hold your posts til we find out whether we can make a thread for it.

Although to be honest, I think people are only posting here because it is an SBR thread. I think it'll die down when a specific topic pops up. I guess people just want attention sometimes, not substance.

 

[Mmac]

We are going to need to isolate discussion on this into separate topics quick if anything productive is going to happen. What is technologically possible is one issue, what we want to actually change in the game is another, and the politics of agreeing what to do in the long term is yet one more.

It is absurd to discuss long term prospects at all at this point, including random opinions on whether modifications are "good" or "bad". Discussion should be limited strictly to the first two.

I kinda already thought ahead I already post a discussion on how to balance Yoshi for the patch in the Character boards. I'm going to try to keep it orderly and realistically as I possibly can while keeping in the guidelines.

Hopefully I got the right idea,I intend to help. If the other Character Boards follow, it can go along much quicker.

 

[darkserenade]

wtf i don't support hacking sonic in melee. look up the definition of a dream, we all have them, and that is just one of them for ME.

panda said he started this, and its dumb, not the whole SBR

your an idiot if you think hacking brawl is a good idea.




seriously. your an idiot.

Yes, this guy is SO right.
The apocalypse comes when smart smashers try to hack a great game to become greater.
Reform through the Lord.
[/trollfeeding]
I hope I could help, but, depending on how long the project lasts, I may or may not help (budgets FOR THE LOSS).
Amazing idea, though.

 

[Viral-Enki]

Exactly. This is stupid idea.

Why do we have to change the game?
People are living in the past.

Bringing back wave dashing and single air dodges will just let people perform the rigged combos they spent so long working on in Melee.

Just ****ing deal with the new game engine. Stop being afraid of change.

If you think Melee was balanced, then you are living in a false sense of fairness.
Fox, Sheik and Marth were all beyond the others, just like Meta Knight and Snake now.

Yet in Brawl, we see people winning Tourneys with Peach, or Pikachu, or Ike.

Melee was just Marth Marth Marth, Sheik, Fox, and odd Ice Climbers.

 

[Greenstreet]

Ok that's it. I'm turning this car around.
We're going home.

 

[Napilopez]

Exactly. This is stupid idea.

Why do we have to change the game?
People are living in the past.

Bringing back wave dashing and single air dodges will just let people perform the rigged combos they spent so long working on in Melee.

Just ****ing deal with the new game engine. Stop being afraid of change.

If you think Melee was balanced, then you are living in a false sense of fairness.
Fox, Sheik and Marth were all beyond the others, just like Meta Knight and Snake now.

Yet in Brawl, we see people winning Tourneys with Peach, or Pikachu, or Ike.

Melee was just Marth Marth Marth, Sheik, Fox, and odd Ice Climbers.

This is not changing the games engine. Your post amounts to nothingness, no offense =P

And this is coming from someone thoroughly against this stuff.

 

[Wind Owl]

Yeah Panda seriously... I wouldn't have made a post like this. You should have made it like the SBR application thread, and had only qualified people post an application for hacking. Instead you have this thread clogged with every n00b on the site arguing about balance changes and how their character should be buffed and is hacking morally acceptable (or whatever you people are whining about) blah blah blah blah blah.

This thread will be 70 pages by tomorrow, impossible to even read, and you still won't have anyone that's able to do what you want.

 

[Greenstreet]

That Is Why The Following Thread Had Been Created:

SBR Balancing Project - Debate


Seriously, if you have debate, rather than help, on this project head here. Let's leave this thread for the people actually working on the project so they can actually have some decent contributions.

 

[Wind Owl]

It's too late. You expect people to move to that thread? They won't as long as this one exists. There are people that read half the OP then make their ignorant statement, it happens all the time. Then there are people that see something in this thread and want to respond to it so badly they don't CARE if there's another thread. Yours will get pushed to the side, trust me.

 

[Greenstreet]

You are not helping, trust me.

 

[Wind Owl]

Probably not.

 

[DrAwesome]

First, i would like to say that i think this is a very interesting (not necessarily good) idea. I'm glad the SBR, or just panda at least, are looking into the possibilities of hacks. Although im not sure if posting to the general community was the best idea. There are tons of people who wish to flame and spam just because they have a preconceived notion of things such as hacking. That said, some of these people are just trolling, but some of them are actually able to discuss this in a fairly civil manner. With that im gonna try and do a line by line like tinkman and hopefully get this discussion back on track.

Let me begin by saying that the point of the thread wasn't to debate the implications or the consequences but rather just to start the process of creating them. Lets focus on finding people who can and are willing to do this and/or teaching others to hack. I for one would love to help but no nothing about hacking. I just know very basic stuff about homebrew.

Ok now with that out of the way lets get to some arguments.

1. You shouldn't hack the game/go play something else if you don't like brawl.

-Panda already said that they want to make a great game better. It is not a mater of whether or not brawl was bad. There is really no reason to press this point further.
-Many other games have been moded to great effect, (starcraft,CS,etc.) this was not because the game was inherently bad. It is quite the opposite, many people found the game to be fundamentally strong and wanted make it as good as it could possibly be. You would want the developers of a game to do this why cant the community?
-This whole idea has a realistically slim chance of actually making a difference to the community at large. It shouldnt bother you that someone wants to simply try it.

2. These hacks are impossible to implement for wide spread tourny use.

-Tinkman did a great job of explaining how distribution wouldn't be hard with a bootloader, go read that post.
-Using ocarina is incredibly easy and simple to use. The whole way i even got in to the homebrew thing was from a digg article and the realization that i have everything i need at home already. (SD card, TP, 10min)
-TOs can install on site and once that is done those who donated a wii have the hacks at home to practice with. Even if you dont provide it for use at the tourny you could simply just ask to have it installed by someone who knows what they are doing. That way anyone can have access to the patches.

3. How do you measure balance?/we shouldn't nerf and/or buff

-True this is very difficult but SBR could do this. We have already seen that they look at each character careful with some of the best players at their disposal. This aren't just guys who play a few games and reach a conclusion. They take their time.
-All these updates would be extremely minor and would be extensively monitored for a long time before another change is made. A patch would probably be released as often as a tier list maybe even less frequently.

4. This will hurt the community (split it apart, cause people to leave, etc)

-The community is no stranger to conflict. (tires don exit, brawl vs. melee, ban meta knight) Its a part of the process.
-Panda said in the OP that at best this would be a side event at most tournys. This is no intent to replace/improve brawl as it now stands. Thus it should never be a big problem
-Lets look at why this would even be a concern to you. Why would one even value the community?
1. Well if you wanted to play with people who enjoy the same game as you do, those you play with probably would be against the hacks already and refuse to play them anyways.
2. You value having a place to discuss your favorite game with people all across the country. This doesn't change with a hack and you could even make the argument that conflict gives you something to talk about (not my best argument...)
3. You like having a place to share information and thoughts about a game you love so much. A large part of being in a community is to share these things you may not otherwise know about. (strategies, tournys, etc) It is also a place where you can find ways to greatly enhance the experience. (find more players, learn quirky games to play occasionally, or even hacks for fun) Basically what i am getting at is... what do you care about the community if you don't like what they have to offer???

5. You are asking too much of us/no one will do this.

-People (especially on the Internets) will do anything out of boredom.
-If we take the time to teach how to do it, it wont be such a burden for phantom wings to do it.
-If its really too much then don't do it. Its cool if you have better things to do then to work on a video game. We all do. (i should be sleeping instead of writing this wordy post...) Hopefully someone will give it a try.




Well that is all i got for now. I'm sorry for such a long post but i really wanted to contribute because i think this could be really great even if it doesn't catch on. Please discuss and try not to flame... please.