The SBR wants your help to hack Brawl for a potential project in the future!

[memphischains]

Right, exactly.

When it's something that you find would make the game better, you support hacking the game in order to get it.

SamuraiPanda and the other SBR people feel the same way about this. Balancing the game by changing arbitrary values in the game code is something that would be pretty freaking awesome to most people. You can't really make an argument against this other then "Stop wasting your time with this and play the game like it is.", which is pretty silly, however you basically negated that by admitting that Sonic in Melee would be something you'd like to hack in.

wtf i don't support hacking sonic in melee. look up the definition of a dream, we all have them, and that is just one of them for ME.

panda said he started this, and its dumb, not the whole SBR

your an idiot if you think hacking brawl is a good idea.




seriously. your an idiot.

 

[BEES]

sonic does not need anything. he is PERFECT IN BRAWL THE WAY HE IS.

yeah if you're a masochist

 

[kupo15]

Now Im confused. You said that you dont want to add l canceling yet you ask on how to add hitstun?

Anyway here is some info you asked for

What we deduced is that Brawl already has a built in hitstun. The problem is that the games allows you to jump, air dodge, and use a attacks before the tumble. So all you have to do is find the algorithm or code that runs a timer that triggers the tumble animation and either use paste that over whatever controls the jump, air dodge and a attacks, OR move the jump, air dodge and a attacks under the tumble timer.

Just a guess

 

[Judge Judy]

He told us why as clear as day. To take a great game and make it even better. I don't see why there would be some sort of hidden agenda.

I don't, but his explaination is very unnerving; to hear the SBR openly share a "consideration" is very unlike them and seems rather rash. I want more answers than what have been given, I want to know specifically why the game needs to be "better". I enjoy and respect the gameplay of Melee very much, but I have never seen the SBR act quite like this before.

 

[Wind Owl]

You can't jump during hitstun, Kupo.

Judy: TBQH this seems to me like Panda's project, not the SBR's.

 

[kupo15]

Then why is it that I jump instead of air dodge? It seems I can jump before the tumble which puts it in the same category as hitstun along with air dodge and a attacks.

 

[Wind Owl]

Hmm, maybe I'm wrong but Magus said you can't jump or Up B during "hitstun."

 

[Mmac]

This is exactly the types of hacks I wanted to balance the game. Just simple Knockback/Damage/Frame/Hitbox Adjustments. Not "Melee 2.0", which in my opinion will actually hurt the game even more.

I don't know anything about hacks, but am I allowed to suggest my opinions to balance characters?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I don't, but his explaination is very unnerving; to hear the SBR openly share a "consideration" is very unlike them and seems rash. I want more answers than what have been given, I want to know specifically why the game needs to be "better". I enjoy and respect the gameplay of Melee very much, but I have never seen the SBR act quite like this before.

This is the last post I'm responding to now, as I'm heading off to bed. And I'm pretty sure that some members here already see what we're thinking with this, so I'm not too worried that the concept of this is lost among the masses.

Frankly, the reason we're being so open with merely a consideration is that there is no other way we can do this. We need the help of the public to hack the game. Its simply too much work for us to handle as a side project if we had to figure out all of these different hacks. Also, the "why" is deceptively simple here. If you had the opportunity to create an incredibly balanced fighting game, would you do it? Well, some of us in the SBR definitely think that pipe dream is something worth looking into.

 

[BEES]

The hitstun for attacks that connect is fine the way it is. Yeah, it could be a little longer in the low percents but balancing that is a monumental task.

The shield hitstun is not fine the way it is. Up the shield hitstun, decrease the shield hitlag. That would be much easier to fix, and doing so would allow people to put pressure on shields.

 

[memphischains]

yeah if you're a masochist

you're ignorant

 

[kupo15]

Well, there is hit lag which is when the attack hits and both cant do anything, there is hitstun which is before the tumble (in melee you couldnt do anything before the tumble aka hitstun) but brawl appears to have something inbetween hitstun and tumble. Like you cant air dodge immediately after hitlag but you can before the tumble....weird

 

[BEES]

you're ignorant

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

Facts are facts. This has nothing to do with me, my opinions, or my background knowledge of the character's metagame. I'm stating simple facts.

 

[ColinJF]

This seems like a dangerous idea to me.

It creates a weird thing to consider when playing the game. You don't want to do too well with your character or he will just be nerfed. It discourages trying to evolve your character's metagame because if it becomes too good, the character will just be changed so that your new strategies don't work anymore.

Whenever you are beat by something, it encourages you to complain about modifying the game rather than just learning ways around the strategy.

On the other hand I doubt Ness would be nerfed and presumably his ground break animation would be shorter.

I think the premise is dangerous though, especially the culture it would cultivate when it comes to good strategies/techniques.

Also, every tournament host would probably end up running his own subtlely different version of the game... the community really isn't centralised enough to just agree with whatever the SBR comes up with, which leads to a whole slew of other problems.

We should just stay away from hacking the game for any reason.

 

[Wiwiweb]

This post is an error

 

[Wind Owl]

Facts are facts. This has nothing to do with me, my opinions, or my background knowledge of the character's metagame. I'm stating simple facts.

While I don't disagree in this case, don't ever cite tier lists as fact kthx

 

[Judge Judy]

This is the last post I'm responding to now, as I'm heading off to bed. And I'm pretty sure that some members here already see what we're thinking with this, so I'm not too worried that the concept of this is lost among the masses.

Frankly, the reason we're being so open with merely a consideration is that there is no other way we can do this. We need the help of the public to hack the game. Its simply too much work for us to handle as a side project if we had to figure out all of these different hacks. Also, the "why" is deceptively simple here. If you had the opportunity to create an incredibly balanced fighting game, would you do it? Well, some of us in the SBR definitely think that pipe dream is something worth looking into.

I understand the concept but don't you believe that we're getting ahead of ourselves? If we take action like this too quickly mistakes will be made that may tarnish this community's reputation. If this is truly the direction the SBR wants to take smash, that's their decision, it just seems very unorthodox. I have no direct problems with doing this but this is a very big decision to make, and the SBR has never made a decsion quite like this before. Is the SBR really ready to make a decision like this, and if they are, are they ready to accept the consequences?

 

[memphischains]

Facts are facts. This has nothing to do with me, my opinions, or my background knowledge of the character's metagame. I'm stating simple facts.

those are opinions

the tier list is an opinion of a group of people. lol @ fact

the tier list is meaningless and so are you

 

[Wiwiweb]

I predicted this would happen in an earlier post.

I think that one of the most important things that could happen with these hacks is changing stats from characters to make a balanced game.

But then, how would we decide what to balance ? Obviously Meta Knight needs to be nerfed and Captain Falcon needs to be buffed, but where ? Which moves ? How much ?
Deciding this would be as hard as making a tier list.

It would start off by making small basic changes : improving low tiers chars and nerfing high tier chars. Obvious changes like Captain Falcon's knee. A general code including all changes would be created.
Then after a few months using this first version, an "alternate" tier list would be decided. Based on that new tier list, a second version of the changes could be decided. Captain Falcon actually has no bad matchups anymore ? Version 2 will fix this.
Repeat until a final tier list is created, that would make the game more-or-less balanced. That final code would be used for alternate hacked play.

Of course this would require a lot of organization. The best people qualified to decide what has to be changed would be the Backroomers. But they are not accepting to do anything regarding hacks. For the moment.

I approve this project. I don't know much about hacking (just ported a few codes from NTSC to PAL) but I'd gladly help deciding what to change.

 

[JLynn943]

We should just stay away from hacking the game for any reason.

agreed 100%

Unless the SBR members truly see the current metagame as stagnant (or heading there), more time should be allowed for it to develop, imo. We're giving up too fast.

 

[otg]

we shouldn't play this game if we have to do this

Agreed, Melee anyone?

 

[memphischains]

Agreed, Melee anyone?

lets hack sonic into it llolololololololololololololollololollololloooooooollllloolollolololo

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Agreed, Melee anyone?

This isn't even about making Brawl more like Melee, it's about balancing Brawl characters. ****, did you even read the first post?

 

[Wind Owl]

He's just saying that Brawl sucks and we should just play Melee instead of bothering to hack it extensively like this.

Spoiler

He's right.

 

[Lord Viper]

Agreed, Melee anyone?

No Lip's Theme, no way. XD

Anyways hacking a game does seem weird. Oh well, we'll just have to see how it is, but when I saw WD in Brawl, I just said screw hacking. =/

 

[Judge Judy]

This isn't even about making Brawl more like Melee, it's about balancing Brawl characters. ****, did you even read the first post?

In theory it is a good idea, but even a single mistake could be very costly for the community's and the game's reputation in the long run. I don't want to see good intentions run awry.

 

[Napilopez]

I really don't know about this. I think what bothers me the most is that we are barely into brawl and this is being considered. We haven't even untapped characters full potential, or perhaps even all the abilities in brawl yet. I wouldn't say we're anywhere near with only like 7 months into the game. Focus on doing what we can with brawl before this is taken on. More than anything, this sounds like something fun to do on the side. I know its not trying to make melee 2.0... But these changes are too drastic and complex IMO. At least when you add Melee like features, which I am against as well, you are affecting every character in the game. But changing properties of individual moves and abilities of every single character? It would take forever to balance this appropriately, and mind you, we still have a baby metagame in brawl. How do you determine which individual hacks are better? What if some people want to tweak this attack one way, and others want to tweak it another? What are your guidelines? You have to determine properties of attacks, and how they will affect the entire 35+ roster of brawl, in different situations and conditions. I know this is all only a consideration and a possibility, but I think its one that will see little/no fruit.

If you could balance it to a starcraft level, then great. But I still think that its nevertheless a problem distributing it to everyone, and it could really segregate communities. The counter strike mod was easily distributed, and furthermore the creators approved of it. Hacks were encouraged. The makers of half-life actually started OFFICIALLY distrubuting counter strike. Do you think Nintendo would ever do that? What about the MLG? Seeing as it looks brawl will become part of the MLG titles... I don't know how that would work out, hacking brawl. That last one isn't a rhetorical question actually, I'm just curious.

 

[memphischains]

I really don't know of this. I think what bothers me the most is that we are barely into brawl and this is being considered. We haven't even untapped characters full potential, or perhaps even all the abilities in brawl yet. I wouldn't say we're anywhere near with only like 7 months into the game. Focus on doing what we can with brawl before this is taken on. More than anything, this sounds like something fun to do on the side. I know its not trying to make melee 2.0... But these changes are too drastic and complex IMO. At least when you add Melee like features, which I am against as well, you are affecting every character in the game. But changing properties of individual moves and abilities of every single character? It would take forever to balance this appropriately, and mind you, we still have a baby metagame in brawl. How do you determine which individual hacks are better? What if some people want to tweak this attack one way, and others want to tweak it another? What are your guidelines? You have to determine properties of attacks, and how they will affect the entire 35+ roster of brawl, in different situations and conditions. I know this is all only a consideration and a possibility, but I think its one that will see no fruit.

<3 napi


lets just make melee 2

 

[Judge Judy]

I really don't know of this. I think what bothers me the most is that we are barely into brawl and this is being considered. We haven't even untapped characters full potential, or perhaps even all the abilities in brawl yet. I wouldn't say we're anywhere near with only like 7 months into the game. Focus on doing what we can with brawl before this is taken on. More than anything, this sounds like something fun to do on the side. I know its not trying to make melee 2.0... But these changes are too drastic and complex IMO. At least when you add Melee like features, which I am against as well, you are affecting every character in the game. But changing properties of individual moves and abilities of every single character? It would take forever to balance this appropriately, and mind you, we still have a baby metagame in brawl. How do you determine which individual hacks are better? What if some people want to tweak this attack one way, and others want to tweak it another? What are your guidelines? You have to determine properties of attacks, and how they will affect the entire 35+ roster of brawl, in different situations and conditions. I know this is all only a consideration and a possibility, but I think its one that will see no fruit.

My thoughts exactly, but what the community appears to be considering is that Brawl's gameplay is too deeply flawed, and rather than abandoning the game they want to try to "salvage" it though some modifications. The problem with this is that this plan could easily backfire and the SBR has given no indication of any backup in case something goes wrong or arwy. Also, this may be some indication of how the SBR percieves Brawl as a whole.

 

[Wind Owl]

Judy, while I'm not in favor of this hack (because it's stupid and too much effort for too little gain), you keep talking as if this is irreversable. All you have to do is reset Brawl, and the hacks are all gone... What do you mean by 'backfire'?

 

[IWuvGeno]

I am completely for hacking Brawl.

I bought my Wii specifically for this game, and Melee still gets more play. I don't care if it doesn't inherit everything, but Melee had some great elements that were completely removed or changed in a negative way. These elements should be included back into the game:

-ledge snapping toned down
-L-canelling
-fix hitstun
-dash dancing, please for the love of god.
-faster character movespeed all around (sleep inducing ATM - zzZZzzz)

I like what I'm seeing in terms of character balancing, but I believe the actual character balances should be short and concise. Once these other issues have been addressed, the list shouldn't be long.

If this requires the dividing of the community, then so be it. I am interested in a good fighting game only, not what is currently collecting dust under my TV.

 

[Praxis]

I LOVE the concept, but there is a serious problem with the idea, namely that the changes need to be kept absolutely minimal so that people without the hack can still practice.

For example, using the OP's example.

Reducing the knockback of Dedede's Bair, not so much as to nerf the move but enough to make it not KO as fast, and reducing the damage on his CG so as not to make it so overpowering is great. Increasing Waddle Dee knockback is fine (though, do we really want to encourage more camping in Brawl?).

But increasing the amount of frames in his spotdodge? Dedede players will be used to the timing, and different timing on his spotdodge will equate to Dedede players messing up their timing.



ALSO, for anyone from SBR who reads this: Peach just needs one kill move, and she's a low-high-tier character. Her usmash is too inconsistent (so hard to sweetspot) and her fair goes stale way too fast being a staple move and still requires >100% to kill unstale even on lightweights like Metaknight. Give her back the Melee fthrow please so she can kill (fthrow is useless now), and call it good.


I'd love to help if I could. I've been involved with similar projects for other games, as well as actually a similar one for Brawl before.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

SBR.. why are you stationed at the cesspool of smash brothers fans? not only are they stupid, they tend to suck at the game.

also can you just lock out people from posting in this thread? i was all giddy seeing it 8 pages long just to be annoyed with a plethora of whining and moaning.


oh nintendo how you attract the worst.

 

[Praxis]

I am completely for hacking Brawl.

I bought my Wii specifically for this game, and Melee still gets more play. I don't care if it doesn't inherit everything, but Melee had some great elements that were completely removed or changed in a negative way. These elements should be included back into the game:

-ledge snapping toned down
-L-canelling
-fix hitstun
-dash dancing, please for the love of god.
-faster game speed (sleep inducing ATM - zzZZzzz)

I like what I'm seeing in terms of character balancing, but I believe the actual character balances should be short and concise. Once these other issues have been addressed, the list shouldn't be long.

If this requires the dividing of the community, then so be it. I am interested in a good fighting game only, not what is currently collecting dust under my TV.

No, this is wrong. Adding the elements you suggest is fine for a separate project, but it would COMPLETELY break the existing tier list. MK would be god (dtilt > ftilt > uair > uair > uair > uair >uair > shuttle loop would be an inescapable combo), Snake would be crap, Sheik would be godly as would Peach and Mario and Luigi, Falcon would be decent, Sonic would be good.

L cancelling a la Smash 64 would make Ike high tier as well, and make Peach useless (she thrives on the fact that all of her aerials autocancel- give everyone else that ability and she's just a character with no kill moves).

There's way too much to account for. Make it a separate project. A Brawl Balancing project should only make the minorest changes in characters possible to balance them.





A separate question- is it possible to tweak hitstun on individual attacks? Like, could you give all of Captain Falcon's moves more hitstun without effecting anyone else?

 

[Judge Judy]

Judy, while I'm not in favor of this hack (because it's stupid and too much effort for too little gain), you keep talking as if this is irreversable. All you have to do is reset Brawl, and the hacks are all gone... What do you mean by 'backfire'?

What will this kind of action do to the reputation of the community if things go sour? What happens if such a large effort fails miserably? If this kind of change was made in a small controlled environment it might be stable, but you can't honestly believe such a large scale project can simply be reversed if it fails. If the SBR decides this to even be a temporary new standard, there will be great consequences. The SBR has never done anything like this before and I question their ability to pull it off successfully in such uncertain times; if the SBR does make a decision like this, it should be after the metagame has completely played out.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I LOVE the concept, but there is a serious problem with the idea, namely that the changes need to be kept absolutely minimal so that people without the hack can still practice.

For example, using the OP's example.

Reducing the knockback of Dedede's Bair, not so much as to nerf the move but enough to make it not KO as fast, and reducing the damage on his CG so as not to make it so overpowering is great. Increasing Waddle Dee knockback is fine (though, do we really want to encourage more camping in Brawl?).

But increasing the amount of frames in his spotdodge? Dedede players will be used to the timing, and different timing on his spotdodge will equate to Dedede players messing up their timing.



ALSO, for anyone from SBR who reads this: Peach just needs one kill move, and she's a low-high-tier character. Her usmash is too inconsistent (so hard to sweetspot) and her fair goes stale way too fast being a staple move and still requires >100% to kill unstale even on lightweights like Metaknight. Give her back the Melee fthrow please so she can kill (fthrow is useless now), and call it good.

um... so basically you're saying.. change things! but not too much!

..

the whole point of patching is to change character's attributes. its to be expected that you lose some things in patches.. and why would people who don't even have their wii hacked even.. you know what i'm done

GOD PEOPLE ARE STUPID

 

[otg]

Let's just make Luigi god tier. He's too good.

 

[Viral-Enki]

It's all good that we want to improve the game, but this just worries me.
There will be a greater divide in the ommunity than there is now.

I know Melee was great, but I honestly prefer Brawl.

Go ahead with the idea, I want slipping removed as much as the next guy.

 

[Praxis]

um... the whole point of patching is to change character's attributes. its to be expected that you lose some things in patches.. and why would people who don't even have their wii hacked even.. you know what i'm done

GOD PEOPLE ARE STUPID

Wow. Can I get the IQ points I lost reading this back?

The point of patching is to change the balancing, not to change the underlying playstyle. Why would people who don't have their wii hacked want to practice? Are you that dense? You go to a tournament where the wii's are hacked, then go home and practiced on an unhacked Wii.

You want people to be able to use their existing playstyles with only slight modification. NOT have to relearn their character with and without hacks.

Please think before you call people stupid...as hard as thinking may be for you.

 

[Taylor]

We are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.

Honestly, I wholeheartedly support your patch idea - everybody can agree that good balancing will create more diversity, and diversity makes a better competitive scene. But it doesn't change that fact that thousands of competitive smashers will not go to the trouble of hacking, which makes this a gigantic waste of time.