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The SBR wants your help to hack Brawl for a potential project in the future!

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SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
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The SBR is considering the possibility of starting a project to release balance patches for Brawl using Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game (note: This is a software hack, not a hardware hack. All it requires is an SD card and a copy of Twilight Princess). The purpose of this project is NOT to change the way Brawl fundamentally works. There would be no sweeping changes to the game engine itself, no Melee air dodge, no speed increase, no increase in shield stun, no widespread increase in hitstun, etc. This project would be to simply try to balance the game as best as we possibly can. This could potentially add infinite replayability to the game, and could theoretically lead us to having one of the most balanced fighters on consoles if we continue this project for long enough.

No fighting game has ever before released balance patches throughout the game’s lifespan in order to better balance the game, and Brawl is no exception. The Smash series in and of itself is not balanced to keep in mind the competitive rulesets that we make for them. 1v1, stage bans, stage strikes, counter picking, no items… there is quite an extensive list of complicated rules we’ve created in order to make Smash competitive. In fact, we’ve done so much to the game already that it is no longer the same Smash game that was included in the box. This is an entirely new Smash that we, the smash community, have created. Personally, I think of what we’ve done to Smash is something akin to like what Counterstrike did to Half-Life. CS was merely a mod of HL at first, using the same basic engine altered in many ways using the modding programs that came with the game. By making HL run under different rules that they made up, things like having rounds and money to buy weapons every round, along with new skins for the game itself, CS became an entirely different entity that changed a game focused on FFA deathmatch not meant to be too serious into a hardcore competitive FPS. CS took off to become a far more popular multiplayer game than HL ever was by itself, and the competitive CS community is enormous even today. While we, unfortunately, may not have tools packed in by the developers to make a mod, we still did the exact same thing by making up our own rules that were not included with the original game itself. Although many of us refuse to admit it, we have already created a “counterstrike” for Smash. And now we have the opportunity to take it farther.

Let me give you an example of what I’m referring to with this project. This is a quick example (that I personally made right now) of what we could possibly do to balance DeDeDe:

---------------------------
DeDeDe

Nerfs
- Standing grab slower by ~2-4 frames.
- Knockback of Back air reduced by 20% (i.e. current knockback at 80% would now apply for 100%)
- Back air starting animation slower by ~2-5 frames
- Damage of Down throw reduced from 8% to 6%
- Spotdodge length increased by ~1-2 frames

Synopsis:
DeDeDe has a harder time with KOing and racking up damage as fast as he used to with his usual methods. But he still doesn't have a difficult time with actually racking up the damage, as his main methods of doing so haven't decreased by much. Also, he is more punishable spotdodge, and his standing grab isn't as fast as it used to be (so he no longer has the infinite grab and it makes it slightly more difficult to get the grab).

Buffs
- Waddle Dee damage increased from 5% to 8%
- Waddle Doo damage increased from 7% to 12%
- Starting animation of Down B slightly faster
- Increased priority of Neutral air
- Increased damage of Neutral air from 12% to 15%
- Slightly increased knockback of Neutral air

Synopsis: Increasing his options to rack up damage with by buffing a few attacks. Also potentially giving him another viable, yet situational, KO option.
---------------------------


These sorts of changes, along with a few other additions such as no tripping and >3 minute replays, are what this potential project would try to accomplish. However, this would be an EXTREMELY difficult and long process, so if the SBR decides to take this on, then we’ll have one hell of a job to do.

That’s where you guys come in. The SBR might be willing to continue with this project… if its actually possible. But there are so many things we don’t know how to alter yet through the hacks, so this project could never start if we tried to figure these out on our own! We’d like you guys to help us out in figuring out the codes for some different values we may want to alter if we create patches, because if the coding and hacking is out of the way then this patch could potentially become a reality. Here is a list of some of the things we’d like to know how to hack:

---------------------------
Individual attacks:
1. Damage
2. Knockback
3. Move start-up and cool-down
4. Changing the sizes of hitboxes
5. Priority
6. Damage-scaled knockback (meaning the increase in knockback of attacks as percents increase)
7. Hitstun
8. Speed of attack itself
9. Landing lag of aerials

Other properties:
1. Speed of character as a whole
2. Weight of character
3. Length of recovery

Misc:
1. Exceeding the 400 line code limtation
2. Adding tags to replays
3. Default settings when you start up your Wii to be 3 stock, 8 minutes, and team attack on
4. Removing the glitch for characters such as Ganondorf and Marth where they have extra landing lag when they land after using a recovery move to grab the ledge.
---------------------------

Any and all help is appreciated. If you discover a code that we actually end up using, you will receive credit for creating/discovering it. I truly hope this project comes to fruition, as I see potential in its future, but we can’t do it without your help!

EDIT: Here are some additional posts I made later on to clarify a few points
[FONT=&quot]
"we shouldn't play this game if we have to do this"


Ah yes, I forgot to talk about that point. We all like Brawl very much as it is now (with a few exceptions here and there). This project did not come about because we were somehow unsatisfied with how the game is right now. This project was proposed because we could take this game to the next level of balance. As someone pointed out earlier, the most balanced competitive game right now, Starcraft, was made that way through years of patching the game to fix its balance. Nothing was wrong with the game when it was unbalanced before. But the game became infinitely better after they patched it.

There is no harm in trying this out. Worst case scenario, this doesn't succeed or happen, and we all just go back to playing normal Brawl. Which isn't really a bad scenario because we already enjoy Brawl the way it is now. We just want to take a great game and make it even better.
[/FONT]
"So I would HIGHLY suggest that we get L-Cancel as part of the patch to make the game faster."

Absolutely not. I'm sorry, but the Melee 2.0 project is completely separate from what this potential project is trying to accomplish. This project doesn't aim to change how Brawl works, or to add ATs or anything. This project is to take Brawl as it is now, and simply balance the characters further. Nothing else (other than some misc additions like no tripping).

I'm not saying that there won't be some sort of SBR project to make a Melee 2.0 (or something like that) in the future. All I'm saying is that this current project is not aiming to fundamentally change the game.
We are not looking to replace this as the competitive standard or something like that. If these patches actually happen, then we're simply hoping some TOs find it interesting enough for a side-tournament or something. If it catches on, then that's awesome. If it doesn't, then it can just stay as an interesting diversion for some people.
 

MuBa

Smash Lord
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SamuraiPanda, I would be honored to help you guys out with helping to change the game into something more desirable. Plus you saw me at the Indiana tourney. Legan's in my crew ^_^

Edit: I have actually used hacked Brawl in Event 52 (The huge KC tournament hosted by darkrain) with No Tripping, Wavedash, and S-Cancel.

So far people liked it, especially the usefulness of Ike, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon (Let's make a note that we need to increase the frames of his sweetspotted knee) due to the S-Cancel.

So I would HIGHLY suggest that we get L-Cancel as part of the patch to make the game faster.

edit 2: Also I may not know the coding too well but I think a good starting point to ponder about hitstun would be:

- increase in hitstun should be applicable to only aerials (minus the drill-based attacks unless they have a strong final hit) and grab throws. That with L-Canceling would give great room and opportunities to open up combos in Brawl.
 

Crystanium

Smash Hero
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What of those who don't have this kind of stuff to alter things around? And just to be clear, this isn't about anything like wavedashing or l-canceling, is it?
 

Ulevo

Smash Master
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This is certainly a very different direction I could have assumed the SBR would take with Brawl hacks. Hacks are being released to reintroduce what made Melee so great... Wavedashing, L Canceling, et cetera... I never thought changing the way characters themselves operate would be in consideration.

At any rate, if there is one thing I could suggest, it is that you focus on making the lower Tier characters much more powerful, rather than focusing too much on nerfs to the higher Tier characters. After all, I'm sure everyone would love a Captain Falcon keeping up with our current Meta Knight, no?
 

-sonny-

Smash Journeyman
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Uhh ... this really seems kind of pointless to me. I can understand why some people would want to hack Brawl for wavedashing / L canceling, but changing actual properties of the characters seems a little excessive.
 

Vulcan55

Smash Lord
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:falcon: YES!
Too bad I don't know **** about doing this.
But somebody better ****ing help SP!

EDIT:
Would you guys allow help in the form of text (Like you did with D3 in the OP)?
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
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Messages
6,933
So I would HIGHLY suggest that we get L-Cancel as part of the patch to make the game faster.
Absolutely not. I'm sorry, but the Melee 2.0 project is completely separate from what this potential project is trying to accomplish. This project doesn't aim to change how Brawl works, or to add ATs or anything. This project is to take Brawl as it is now, and simply balance the characters further. Nothing else (other than some misc additions like no tripping).

I'm not saying that there won't be some sort of SBR project to make a Melee 2.0 (or something like that) in the future. All I'm saying is that this current project is not aiming to fundamentally change the game.
 

victra♥

crystal skies
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Uhh ... this really seems kind of pointless to me. I can understand why some people would want to hack Brawl for wavedashing / L canceling, but changing actual properties of the characters seems a little excessive.
I'd have to agree. Wouldn't it be much easier to hack for features like L-canceling, DD, and wavedashing? This seems like a lot of work, and like sonny mentioned, a little exessive.

[edit]I just read your post above me SP. I'm a little confused, but I guess I'll wait and see how this turns out.
 

•Col•

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,450
Uhh ... this really seems kind of pointless to me. I can understand why some people would want to hack Brawl for wavedashing / L canceling, but changing actual properties of the characters seems a little excessive.
Quiet you. x_X This is an AWESOME idea, and I would personally love it... Ever hear of Starcraft? One of the reasons it's so popular is because the races are so balanced. Look it up... xD It's REALLY popular, especially in parts of Asia...


But yeah, I'm pretty sure EVERYONE would appreciate Cpt. Falcon being awesome again. xD
 

Crystanium

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So, wavedashing and l-canceling isn't what the SBR is aiming for, or at least the time being? Honestly, if that's the case, that's fine by me. I think it'd be interesting to increase some things for Samus, like a bigger hitbox and priority for her Charge Shot, as well as increased knock-back for her Super Missiles. She'd be her old Melee self again. Hehe.
 

Tim_The_Enchanter

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This sounds awesome, but it will be difficult for the community to agree upon what is broken and what is not (unless the BR makes all of those decisions).

If there's a vote, I vote to go full speed ahead with the project.

If there's some sort of symbol we insert into our sig to show our support, I will sig it up.

If there's a mass cult sacrifice to the Gods to ensure triumph in our conquest, I will lie down on that ceremonial altar and succumb to your divine tools might as you plunge a dagger into my chest, remove my heart and consume it.

I guess you could say I'm in..

Can I suggest altering PT's fatigue and give Falcon some more general priority?

Edit: Also, so I understand, this isn't a campaign to turn Brawl into a copy of Melee, is it?
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
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we shouldn't play this game if we have to do this
Ah yes, I forgot to talk about that point. We all like Brawl very much as it is now (with a few exceptions here and there). This project did not come about because we were somehow unsatisfied with how the game is right now. This project was proposed because we could take this game to the next level of balance. As someone pointed out earlier, the most balanced competitive game right now, Starcraft, was made that way through years of patching the game to fix its balance. Nothing was wrong with the game when it was unbalanced before. But the game became infinitely better after they patched it.

There is no harm in trying this out. Worst case scenario, this doesn't succeed or happen, and we all just go back to playing normal Brawl. Which isn't really a bad scenario because we already enjoy Brawl the way it is now.
 

Rebonack

Smash Apprentice
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I don't think anyone would be adverse to the game Devs releasing a balancing patch fro Brawl, but I think we also all know that it won't ever happen.

The changes proposed here would be rather extensive and require quite a bit more work than the addition of shield-canceled aerials. Though the end result would still be more or less the same when all is said and done, just through individual modification rather than a sweeping change to the game engine.

Curious to see how this turns out.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
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Is there some kind of benchmark the SBR is using to either buff or nerf the characters by? I mean, I look at my character, Diddy Kong, and I don't see anything I would want to change much. Of course, I am biased when I say that. His moveset is pretty solid, and I guess maybe his dsmash could get nerfed a bit. At the same time, there's nothing I would want to buff about him at all. All of his moves have good and bad points to me.

I don't know, I'd have to sit down for more than a few minutes and think hard to come up with an objective list of nerfs (and possible buffs).

Also, SP, I'm with you when it comes to the Counter-Strike Analogy. The same goes with DOTA, and DOTA is regularly patched and rebalanced as well.

The fundamental problem with this Brawl-EX/SBRawl/Brawl+/Brawl2 is that it's not an easy thing to distribute/hack onto your wii. I mean sure, I'll be getting my hands on Ocarina, but it's not the same for everyone. I guess people power is what will make this work.
 

Wind Owl

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We should just balance Melee and then never bother with Brawl again. I mean, it would be like having 12 new (viable) characters, which is like a brand new game... right?
 

memphischains

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Ah yes, I forgot to talk about that point. We all like Brawl very much as it is now (with a few exceptions here and there). This project did not come about because we were somehow unsatisfied with how the game is right now. This project was proposed because we could take this game to the next level of balance. As someone pointed out earlier, the most balanced competitive game right now, Starcraft, was made that way through years of patching the game to fix its balance. Nothing was wrong with the game when it was unbalanced before. But the game became infinitely better after they patched it.

There is no harm in trying this out. Worst case scenario, this doesn't succeed or happen, and we all just go back to playing normal Brawl. Which isn't really a bad scenario because we already enjoy Brawl the way it is now.
i don't see how you can even distribute the hacks on a worldwide level, nevermind the the fact that the meta-game of brawl is slowly decreasing.

i don't want you to get me wrong though, i love brawl. i would rather personally play brawl than melee. brawl is something i have come to love and accept, like you panda.

this isn't something that is going to happen though, there is a better chance of getting overswarm to stfu about meta knight, or mewtwo king getting to stfu about OS.

hacking a game should never ever be an option. there is no point to play a game that should be hacked in order to make it better.


nononononononononoonononononononoooooonnnnnnnooooooonnnnnnnnooooooo
 

stingers

Smash Obsessed
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there is no point to play a game that should be hacked in order to make it better.

I guess we're not ever allowed to play Starcraft, Counterstrike, DOTA, Team Fortress 2, or many other very competitive games that release "hacks" (patches, I assume he's trying to say) to make it better :(
 

•Col•

Smash Champion
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Is there some kind of benchmark the SBR is using to either buff or nerf the characters by? I mean, I look at my character, Diddy Kong, and I don't see anything I would want to change much. Of course, I am biased when I say that. His moveset is pretty solid, and I guess maybe his dsmash could get nerfed a bit. At the same time, there's nothing I would want to buff about him at all. All of his moves have good and bad points to me.

I agree. We should pick a character and make all other equal to that character, or at least within the same tier. Picking a character around the middle of High Tier would probably be best... (Just speaking my thoughts... xP )
 

Tim_The_Enchanter

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Has anyone even tried hacking Melee?

Edit: Let's balance everyone to Mario. He was originally supposed to be most neutral anyway.
 

ice-

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Seriously this is an awful idea.

Starcraft requires a software patch, while to do this you would, at each tournament, you would need X number of machines phyiscally hacked. This will never become standard on any widespread scale.

If taking a game to the "next level" requires hardware mods, I don't see much of a point.

What a joke...

edit: Misunderstood part of it.... Also, who would set up the standards for this? The SBR? they seem to come to soild conclusions and aren't biased at all >_<
 

•Col•

Smash Champion
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Has anyone even tried hacking Melee?

Edit: Let's balance everyone to Mario. He was originally supposed to be most neutral anyway.
Ah, I dunno... I think it'd just be more fun if everyone was better than what Mario is right now... ^_^;; I still think we should aim toward the lower half of High Tier characters.
 

stingers

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you would need X number of machines phyiscally hacked.

You would need 1 SD card with Ocarina/Homebrew Channel/Twilight Hack/whatever on it. That's honestly not a very unrealistic goal.

Has anyone even tried hacking Melee?

Edit: Let's balance everyone to Mario. He was originally supposed to be most neutral anyway


Hacking Melee would be very very hard because there's no way to edit the game data (that we know of) <_<

Even if we could hack Melee, putting everyone on Fox's level instead of Mario's would make the game a lot more fun :laugh:
 

memphischains

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Seriously this is an awful idea.

Starcraft requires a software patch, while to do this you would, at each tournament, you would need X number of machines phyiscally hacked. This will never become standard on any widespread scale.

If taking a game to the "next level" requires hardware mods, I don't see much of a point.

What a joke...
yes .
 

MuBa

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Okay instead of L-canceling, how about we fix some characters with well-deserved autocanceled aerials and give others landlag?

The combo department has already been taken cared of all thanks to the hit stun although another thing I would like to contribute about hitstun is to disable any button inputs until X amount of frames after being hit by aerials and throws.


Ah yes another thing. Do you think we should fix the stuff about port priority seeing as how some characters *cough Snake cough* benefits from it greatly (Or we could just give snake super armor frames from the grenades while holding the opponent...)?
 

stingers

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Why not put everyone on Meta Knight level? :laugh:

... No, seriously.
Better yet, lets just make it so the player has to answer a 50 question test before picking Meta Knight.

It's randomly selected each time.

And the test is made by Steven Hawking.
 

Crystanium

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Um, actually no. All you need is an SD card; there is no physical modding of the Wii involved.
And what of this use of "Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game" that SamuraiPanda mentions? Would this mean that we would need to have the Homebrew Channel on our Wii?
 
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