The SBR official stance on Metaknight.

[cutter]

Just thought I'd add my two cents:

Dedede's infinite chaingrab requires very little skill to pull off. Just picking Dedede randomly one day, I was able to infinite within half a minute of using him. Brawl's buffering system makes it far too easy to chain down-throws while standing in place. Considering it renders five characters completely nonviable (two of which are your supposed sacred "Meta Knight counters"), I'd say it's ban-worthy.

As for trying to argue with the Ice Climbers infinite, that at least requires an understanding of the character and technical skill to do it. Even then, it's not completely reliable because of the precision needed. Different characters also have methods of separating the Ice Climbers and rendering their infinite harmless. This doesn't apply to Dedede.

Melee Sheik can Dthrow chaingrab over half a dozen characters (more than DDD can ever hope to infinite) which renders them completely unviable in tournament play. Guess we should ban that then.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

Ease of use should never be a consideration for banning something.

If something can be humanly mastered, like the ICs infinites, it will be perfected.

The ICs also have the ability to infinite the entire cast. DDD can only infinite a very small handful of characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Melee Sheik can Dthrow chaingrab over half a dozen characters which renders them completely unviable in tournament play. Guess we should ban that then.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

Ease of use should never be a consideration for banning something.

If something can be humanly mastered, like the ICs infinites, it will be perfected.

I am so hot for you cutter. I kid you not ^_^

We should play PAl btw, where she cant Dthrow CG most of the characters in the game.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Even if 100% of people voted for metaknight, he still wouldn't be banned by SBR's standards. This means that regardless of the community's beliefs of tournament play, SBR has the final say.

SBR should have no effect on the community whatsoever. The lack of the use of the poll just shows how they're exemplifying their non-existant power.

EDIT: I am anti-ban by the way.

What? No. The pro-bans only needed 66% of the public poll results in order to overturn the SBR decision. L2Read threads.

 

[Red Arremer]

What? No. The pro-bans only needed 66% of the public poll results in order to overturn the SBR decision. L2Read threads.

No. They didn't.
L2read OPs.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I am so hot for you cutter. I kid you not ^_^

We should play PAl btw, where she cant Dthrow CG most of the characters in the game.

oh yea i almost forgot, i was at game stop and saw the original released verison of Melee and the greatest hits version. Any difference between the two releases?

 

[Jack Kieser]

No. They didn't.
L2read OPs.

That's what the math said. Anti SBR = 41 votes. Pro SBR = 34 votes. Winner in public poll = +2 votes, plus another vote for each 2.5% past majority. That math = 66% in order to reach 42 votes.

... OMG, the answer to the Meta ban was 42! What are the odds...

 

[Zankoku]

The final tally needed a 66% majority, not just the public poll.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No. They didn't.
L2read OPs.

Correct they needed 100% to get MK banned.

yet of course such a thing is impossible simply because of the fact that due to the communities immense size, simply achieving anything near 60% is laughable.

The poll was a waste of time.

 

[TP]

Now that we have an official stance on MK, we need the SBR official stance on whether it is Metaknight or Meta Knight. I'm getting mixed messages from the official threads. The poll used Meta Knight. Had I known it was really about Metaknight, I might have voted differently.

 

[Red Arremer]

That's what the math said. Anti SBR = 41 votes. Pro SBR = 34 votes. Winner in public poll = +2 votes, plus another vote for each 2.5% past majority. That math = 66% in order to reach 42 votes.

... OMG, the answer to the Meta ban was 42! What are the odds...

Anti SBR = 41 votes
Pro SBR = 34 votes including the public votes
Pro SBR without public poll = 32 votes
Winner in public poll = +1, plus another vote for each 2.5% past majority.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Except they needed a 2/3rds majority, which 42 wouldn't be.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The final tally needed a 66% majority, not just the public poll.

...the FINAL TALLY needed a 2/3 majority? Jesus... that's even worse than I thought. I thought I couldn't have less respect for that public poll. Well done, guys, you've proven me wrong.

 

[Zankoku]

Now that we have an official stance on MK, we need the SBR official stance on whether it is Metaknight or Meta Knight. I'm getting mixed messages from the official threads. The poll used Meta Knight. Had I known it was really about Metaknight, I might have voted differently.

It is Meta Knight in the US version, and Metaknight in the JP version.

 

[Red Arremer]

oh yea i almost forgot, i was at game stop and saw the original released verison of Melee and the greatest hits version. Any difference between the two releases?

No, only the regions (US/Japan and PAL) are different.

 

[TP]

It is Meta Knight in the US version, and Metaknight in the JP version.

Well then, based on this thread, it is still possible for MK to be banned here in America. All we have confirmed is that we won't tell the Japanese to ban him.

 

[Kewkky]

This is all theoretical though?
you have no idea how it would actually play out unless it really happened.
moot point.

Which is one of the flaws of the whole debate in the first place, the attacking arguments (pro-ban) had a lot to do with speculation over what would happen if MK WASN'T banned, and with present trends, it's not hard to disprove or shove aside such predictions, even if said predictions end up happening in the future.

All anti-ban had to do was point to tourney results and people more or less understood that MK wasn't over-centralizing the game. That and the fact that people couldn't bring up realistic points with solid proof on MK's extreme dominance on ANY level of play (including mid) led the people to vote how they did, not meeting the 2/3 majority quota required to ban the character.



And if Inui wasn't so ugly, we would've won. Hide behind your MK mask, Inui, I've heard rumors of your facial *detail*! [/makes_stuff_up]

 

[WindMajor]

Now that we have an official stance on MK, we need the SBR official stance on whether it is Metaknight or Meta Knight. I'm getting mixed messages from the official threads. The poll used Meta Knight. Had I known it was really about Metaknight, I might have voted differently.

Nintendo says it's Meta Knight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akKGaOIQ7Tc&feature=related

 

[swordgard]

A. there will never be a super majority on this issue for either side.
Which just like in any ban would result in a status quo.
B. alt accounts were on antiban side too. not just pro ban.
Alt accounts among other things, but this just shows neither side can be trusted, thus poll is irellevant.
C. I agree that competent people should make rules but at the same time COMPETENT person should also be able to see the public had there say-so 4 times in a row and was ignored.
The public had a slight advantage or so for pro ban in both case, not high enough to warrant a ban. Also, competent people are informed, i dont care if you bring me 100 ignorant people who say something should be banned, they do not matter in a competition game. To choose what is competitively viable, you need people who understand competition and are at its highest level. Simple as it is.

D. I have grown up with parents and educators always tell me how i should "stand up for what i believe in" and not fall to "what the popular belief" is at the time(because it always changes). Then why do you believe the actual public poll matters then? Contradiction much?I believe that metaknight is soooo much better than the rest of the cast it is impossible for ANY character to ever catch-up(quote this **** if yu need to).I wonder how adhd almost beat tyrant, how he beat dojo in a MM, how ally won genesis and apex, how lain beat m2k once at apex in winners I also believe that the PEOPLE want him banned and there is NEXT TO NO ONE standing up for them.Wanting something banned=/=should be banned. I know lots of people who want ics infinite to be banned, doesnt mean they should be . I am, NM has and others will follow. You want evidence? Look at the pro ban arguement.Which i refuted, but noone answered my argument or avarices or spadefox's Want more? View hobo 15 to 16 to 17. Wait, whats the evidence? Dojo not getting first? Diddy taking 3/4 spots out of top 8 at lastest hobo? I saw more diversity at apex.Want more? Pick pit/zs/marth/samus/lucario and go play a GOOD metaknight. So because you believe these chars cant beat MK he should be banned? Lol, what utter BS is this. Want me to name the 20 characters marth *****? Marth has little to no bad matchup except for MK, and neo is proving the matchup isnt that bad. Lucario is very underused, though ksizzle stated its because lucario players dont play smart enough and hes showing them how to. ZSS? I believe it isnt metaknight whos making her unviable >.> I can name you at least 3 characters who can compete with MK, which is more than enough in a competitive environment.MAYBE you will understand what COUNTLESS others already have instead of relying on broken CGS wih your ICs(assuming you main them). You sir, are the epitome of scrubbyness. Ics havent been dominating tourneys, therefore arent broken. Ice climbers have counters, and the cg is hard as hell to be consistent with. If you believe the cgs are broken, it just shows how ban-happy you are overall and continue onto attacking people personally instead of bringing arguments. Ice climbers arent broken, d3s infinite isnt, they dont overcentralize the metagame. Stop thinking because it seems broken that it is, ice climbers infinite have conditions and can be countered, while D3s are character specific. Want more? Find the info on Rogue Pit vs Jash.googled/youtubed it, didnt find anything >.< Want more? look at world hobo/hobo 11/cot4 and more more. World hobo had literally no MK slayers, cot4 was fine, remember apex and genesis? Yeah those bigger tourneys where MK did not dominate.


And again, im glad you THINK you know so much about me because now its my turn to throw it in your face.


1. DDD vs samus WITHOUT ICG is 80-20 which means samus WILL NOT WIN unless the DDD is a complete moron. NOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT, lets thrown in the ICG to a match-up that is already nearly impossible. What does the ICG make the match-up? IMPOSSIBLE. I am banning a broken tech that make 5-6 characters 100% unviable. Why should mario/luigi/bowser/dk/samus/ ddd(if you count him) be unviable just cause the SBR allows broken techs? Dont answet the question, your an anitban so obviously you are messed up and cant handle the truth.Well, im not gonna answer the question since you obviously asked me not to.


Im just going to randomly state why it should not be banned. Character specific infinites are not bannable due to lack of overcentralization produced by them. The only character that is really made unviable by them is actually DK, the others are already unviable. Also, counterpick much? Not only that, but you need for all of them to mash in between every grab i believe making it easy to break out at low %(Practice button mashing, seriously, just do it). Samus can switch to ZSS in game, and the others can mash out at anything before 50%. As i said, the only character who is really affected by this is DK, but you can CP D3 because he has bad matchups too.


2. You get this idea that i BAN things just cause i dont like them. Im glad you made this false retort because now its time to throw it back in your face.

olimar vs samus is her 2nd hardest match-up. NOTHING samus has gets thru olimar. did i ban any techs to hold olimar back? did i ban stages that olimar likes? nope! in fact i allow LUIGIS MANSION(which is one of his BEST stages).

Falco vs samus is another one of those match-ups that cant be won IF THE FALCO spams laser and OVER+B. did i ban anything to hold him back? did i ban laser lock? nope.

MARTH vs samus is ANOTHER hard *** fight if the marth spaces right. Did i ban his TILT LOCKS? did i hold marth back? nope.

IC(your character, right) didnt i just retract the ICG rule for them? OH WAIT!!!!! YEA I DID! Now hylian(and IC main) can ICG the **** out of anybody he please.And you did it due to popular demand, you still believe they are broken. You said so at the top, yet said not to believe in what the masses say. Stop contradicting so much.

Do i ban jab locks? Do i ban GW/pit/marth/ect ledge stalling? All of which hurt samus. the answer is no, i do not ban it.
You dont get it. You ban stuff that some people feel should be banned because you believe it is broken. If you were to ask for olimar to be banned, youd look stupid. But if metaknight counters samus, and SOME people want him banned, you will automatically agree with them, mostly because subconsciously you believe he is broken because you cant beat him. Proof is, you gave samus vs MK as an example as to why he should be banned, which is kinda ******** as Samus has tons of bad matchups she cant win at high level.


So as proven above in MULTIPLE examples. i BAN things i feel are broken instead of arguing logically, i agree feelings>logic is the best way to go and not thing i "dislike" or that make me lose. You and your kind HAVE NO CLUE about me and my thinking. I am a very successful TO that does what he BELIEVES is right. If my rules and thinking and events were so rigged and/or bad......NO ONE would attend my eventsYoud be surprised how many people can go to bad events. Not saying your events are bad, but some of the rules are.


but instead....


My most recent METAKNIGHT banned event hit 100 entrants(world record for a non meta event). In fact i ASK that all TO's just man up and TRY to hold a meta banned event. it dont have to be a perm thing, just try it and get feed back from your players.Thats not what you said first time. You said he should be banned, which is pretty perm imo.

Answers in yellow.



Last time in post in this topic, cause this is getting off topic fast.







Also, i really hope you guys nominate avarice for SBR member, this guy is very good at debating.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

This result shouldn't have surprised anyone, there was just no way the SBR would ban MK.

 

[Xyro77]

Melee Sheik can Dthrow chaingrab over half a dozen characters (more than DDD can ever hope to infinite) which renders them completely unviable in tournament play. Guess we should ban that then.

Spoiler

/sarcasm

Ease of use should never be a consideration for banning something.

If something can be humanly mastered, like the ICs infinites, it will be perfected.

The ICs also have the ability to infinite the entire cast. DDD can only infinite a very small handful of characters.

sheik HAD to stop after a ceartain %. ddd does not

 

[MarKO X]

soooooo.....

am I the only one who finds this entire thing...... hilarious?

personally, I think that people should stop running banned MK tournaments. That way, MK can over centralize the game again, and a better truth can be shown.

fact of the matter is, if everyone is running these tournaments with differing rules (MK banned, DDD ICG banned, ledge grab rule, different stages banned, etc.) there really won't be a conclusive truth. Maybe MK is banworthy. Maybe MK isn't banworthy. You can't really tell if everyone under the sun is running they tournaments differently.

oh well. only one thing to do now...

 

[fragbait]

Boom I was so right. The public poll was kind of a joke, and once again SBR has strained its ties with the "public."

Agreed here. I guess we should all leave it up to the select few to decide ANOTHER aspect of our lives. Oh well, see you all next year!

 

[Red Arremer]

oh well. only one thing to do now...

Have a pizza?

 

[zeldspazz]

Excellent.

RIP Metaknight Debates, plz dont come back....

 

[Kewkky]

Have a pizza?

No, that's two things. He meant the first one, pretty obvious.

 

[da K.I.D.]

soooooo.....

am I the only one who finds this entire thing...... hilarious?

personally, I think that people should stop running banned MK tournaments. That way, MK can over centralize the game again, and a better truth can be shown.

fact of the matter is, if everyone is running these tournaments with differing rules (MK banned, DDD ICG banned, ledge grab rule, different stages banned, etc.) there really won't be a conclusive truth. Maybe MK is banworthy. Maybe MK isn't banworthy. You can't really tell if everyone under the sun is running they tournaments differently.

oh well. only one thing to do now...

Lets go marko, Its time to pull a le thien, and show what happens when a Sonic main fights another sonic main with metaknight.

And to anybody else, if you are smart youve pretty much limited your options to MK, the guy whos almost as broken as mk, and the people who double team people in every fight.

In my eyes, those 3 are the only worthwhile characters anymore, and the almost broken guys isnt worth using if theres somebody more broken around so....

looks like im bout to be a MK/IC main...

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

The MetaKnight ban is behind us.

On to the next poll: Should Captain Falcon be given a handicap in the SBR ruleset?

 

[swordgard]

Lets go marko, Its time to pull a le thien, and show what happens when a Sonic main fights another sonic main with metaknight.

And to anybody else, if you are smart youve pretty much limited your options to MK, the guy whos almost as broken as mk, and the people who double team people in every fight.

In my eyes, those 3 are the only worthwhile characters anymore, and the almost broken guys isnt worth using if theres somebody more broken around so....

looks like im bout to be a MK/IC main...

And once again, you will show us how you cant place even with MK/ic.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm tired of sonic
I'm tired of like, outplaying someone, and then ooooooo, a miraculous shuttle loop or utilt and then I lose, or it's a close match for some reason.
I just wanna have priority.... hore it out.... and get the free damage.

Edit: I'm also tired this automatic assumption that people who have mained someone else who is NOT MK will like, not go anywhere when they main MK. You act as though MK has this ridic high learning curve.

Spoiler

like sonic

 

[ShadowLink84]

sheik HAD to stop after a ceartain %. ddd does not

Which did not matter because it led into death for those characters the great majority of the time.

it was still a 0-death.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm tired of sonic
I'm tired of like, outplaying someone, and then ooooooo, a miraculous shuttle loop or utilt and then I lose, or it's a close match for some reason.
I just wanna have priority.... hore it out.... and get the free damage.

Edit: I'm also tired this automatic assumption that people who have mained someone else who is NOT MK will like, not go anywhere when they main MK. You act as though MK has this ridic high learning curve.

Spoiler

like sonic

Do you have this written somewhere? Because I swear, the majority of the time I see your posts, it's the exact. same. one... I lol whenever I see it, though.

They won't place, swordgard... But they'll definitely place better than before.

 

[da K.I.D.]

like, have people played this character?

people are talking theoretical stuff like theyve never actually touched the character before.

the simple fact that he has no bad matchups makes my 1 week MK just as good as my sonic, lucario, or ddd, all whom ive been playing since launch.

Keep thinking I wont place playing you character son. dont get mad at me just cus you cant win with a "5 grabs and you win" character.

p.s. the extra 2 are for scrubs like you that eff up their alt grabs

 

[aeghrur]

Lets go marko, Its time to pull a le thien, and show what happens when a Sonic main fights another sonic main with metaknight.

And to anybody else, if you are smart youve pretty much limited your options to MK, the guy whos almost as broken as mk, and the people who double team people in every fight.

In my eyes, those 3 are the only worthwhile characters anymore, and the almost broken guys isnt worth using if theres somebody more broken around so....

looks like im bout to be a MK/IC main...

EDC hore for us please.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm also tired this automatic assumption that people who have mained someone else who is NOT MK will like, not go anywhere when they main MK. You act as though MK has this ridic high learning curve.

Spoiler

like sonic

I'm mainly tired of this automatic assumption that people who pick up Meta Knight suddenly will do so much better and destroy everything in their way.

Clearly - if you played a Mid or Low Tier and flock to a Top Tier, you'll do better, but not extremely much. But a noname suddenly winning a tournament just because they picked Meta Knight instead of [insert random Mid or Low Tier in here] - that's not really possible, as much as people like to assume that.

 

[da K.I.D.]

EDC hore for us please.

WITHOUT HESITATION!

I'm mainly tired of this automatic assumption that people who pick up Meta Knight suddenly will do so much better and destroy everything in their way.

Clearly - if you played a Mid or Low Tier and flock to a Top Tier, you'll do better, but not extremely much. But a noname suddenly winning a tournament just because they picked Meta Knight instead of [insert random Mid or Low Tier in here] - that's not really possible, as much as people like to assume that.

Wow, spade, suck a **** yo, who the hell are you to call me no name?



and for everyone else, watch, and be educated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

 

[.AC.]

I'm tired of sonic
I'm tired of like, outplaying someone, and then ooooooo, a miraculous shuttle loop or utilt and then I lose, or it's a close match for some reason.
I just wanna have priority.... hore it out.... and get the free damage.

Edit: I'm also tired this automatic assumption that people who have mained someone else who is NOT MK will like, not go anywhere when they main MK. You act as though MK has this ridic high learning curve.

Spoiler

like sonic

learning curve does not affect the ending result.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wow, spade, suck a **** yo, who the hell are you to call me no name?

Bad joke.

1.You are a no name.

2. Spadefox is a homosexual iirc.

3. He has purple, you don't. =)

 

[Red Arremer]

Wow, spade, suck a **** yo, who the hell are you to call me no name?

I'll suck a **** even if you don't tell me to. :D

I wasn't talking about you. lol. Did I say "some noname like da KID"? No. I said "some noname". That's random people who aren't known. Like Linklover1234 or something. You get my drift.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

and for everyone else, watch, and be educated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

Total win.

"I want to have priority... just ***** it out..."

Thats how some people view compettitive play: 'use the best character and win'.

 

[Darkurai]

Ironically, I'd just finished a case in Phoenix Wright as I started reading this, so the "everything's all over now yay" music is still playing. Heh.

Anyway, I can't say I'm happy with this decision, and I really see some flaws with the whole thing, but what's done is done and I won't pretend it'll ever change.