The Salt Factory - Mafia Metagame Discussion Thread

[Maven89]

So I'm currently trying to come up with a setup for a mafia game, is there any quick or simple rules to follow when trying to balance it/make it fun? I liked what I originally had, then saw a possible problem and started to change the roles up, it seems more balanced now but not as fun. Can't really post more so was just wondering if there were any guidelines to follow

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So I'm currently trying to come up with a setup for a mafia game, is there any quick or simple rules to follow when trying to balance it/make it fun? I liked what I originally had, then saw a possible problem and started to change the roles up, it seems more balanced now but not as fun. Can't really post more so was just wondering if there were any guidelines to follow

Some things that look fun on paper to the host can turn out to be terrible in actual play. On the other hand you'll never hear anybody complain if you use 50%+ Vanilla Roles in your setup. It's easier to understand it once you've hosted and played more games.

A few tips:
* The minimum amount of phases it takes for either faction to lose should be equal or no more than +1 in town's favor [3v3 or 3v4 in town's favor is the standard in dGames for setups with 3 mafiosi].
* Don't use Closed Masons, Watcher, Vigilante, Serial Killer and Cop. These roles tend to break setups.
* Avoid Janky roles like Cult/other indies, Traitor, Doublevoter or Bulletproof. You can't know how to balance them at this point.

I have a thread that lists a whole bunch of roles and how easy it is to balance them but I'd have to dig it out first.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I've actually really come to like Jailer as a role. Def recommend using that if you need to balance a PR heavy game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Jailer's a super good role. I can't think of a single situation where I'd advice against using it.

 

[Orboknown]

Some things that look fun on paper to the host can turn out to be terrible in actual play. On the other hand you'll never hear anybody complain if you use 50%+ Vanilla Roles in your setup. It's easier to understand it once you've hosted and played more games.

A few tips:
* The minimum amount of phases it takes for either faction to lose should be equal or no more than +1 in town's favor [3v3 or 3v4 in town's favor is the standard in dGames for setups with 3 mafiosi].
* Don't use Closed Masons, Watcher, Vigilante, Serial Killer and Cop. These roles tend to break setups.
* Avoid Janky roles like Cult/other indies, Traitor, Doublevoter or Bulletproof. You can't know how to balance them at this point.

I have a thread that lists a whole bunch of roles and how easy it is to balance them but I'd have to dig it out first.

http://smashboards.com/threads/good-roles-bad-roles-for-hosts.325048/

 

[JTB]

There's no need to add a Jester to your game too, some players seem to forget their role and play like one anyways.

 

[Maven89]

Thanks for the tips

 

[Xivii]

TWSS

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

On the other hand you'll never hear anybody complain if you use 50%+ Vanilla Roles in your setup.

this x1000000

off the top of my head my FAVORITE setup of mine that i've run hands down has got to be epic rap battles mafia. the entire setup was a red herring/troll setup, where the roles essentially led the game to be a 10v3 (or 9v3 i can't remember the numbers off the top of my head) 100% vanilla game, even though most of town and all of mafia had roles that heavily implied the existence of other roles (i think my mafia consisted of an rb, a ninja and a godfather, and my town consisted of basically all backup-type roles and vanillas).

another good one that comes to mind is flavorless, in which i believe the only pr was a bodyguard. it causes things to be less bizarre and less ridiculous.

a personal rule of thumb that i follow when coming up with game design now is this: games will almost ALWAYS be interesting during the Day play because of the nature of mafia. throwing elements in for the sake of throwing them in can likely cause for a bad outcome, and the more comfortable you get and the more aware you get with what a role is and how it functions in practice, the better chances you have of properly using it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Cop only works of you put restriction on it or balance a lot of your set-up on it, hint I put cop only in my 9 man newbie open and 13 man fire abs lightning.

Otherwise you gotta nerf it very hard if you are not balancing the set-up around it.

I'd say it is ok to use if that is what you are basing your set-up around.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

a personal rule of thumb that i follow when coming up with game design now is this: games will almost ALWAYS be interesting during the Day play because of the nature of mafia. throwing elements in for the sake of throwing them in can likely cause for a bad outcome, and the more comfortable you get and the more aware you get with what a role is and how it functions in practice, the better chances you have of properly using it.

Always be interesting ASSUMING PEOPLE PLAY!

As a host you can do a lot to influence that though. Be on time with your flips and ****. Make all of your posts entertaining to read and make sure the game's flavor is engaging (although typically vague or somehow else unable to give the players clues fake or real). One of the most important things that adding interesting and interconnected roles is that it keeps people's attention during night phase as well as day phase, making them much quicker to jump back into the game.

 

[Ashemu]

Jailer's a super good role. I can't think of a single situation where I'd advice against using it.

worth keeping in mind that it becomes a strong investigative role with 1 scum left tho, which can add to swing a lot

 

[JayTheUnseen]

In a mini,( 7 players ) how would a role like this work for the town faction:
Once per game, at night, you can target a player, if that player is mafia aligned, you take control of the mafia's nightkill for that night and can target any player with it save for the player you choose for your original target.

Since it's also an investigative role, would cop have to be removed?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't ever use a role that has the words "if that player is mafia aligned" in it.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Why,too small probability of occurring?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

In a mini,( 7 players ) how would a role like this work for the town faction:
Once per game, at night, you can target a player, if that player is mafia aligned, you take control of the mafia's nightkill and can target any player with it save for the player you choose for your original target.

Since it's also an investigative role, would cop have to be removed?

that role is so powerful it would be broken in a 7-person setup.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I'm sorry but I forgot to clarify, man I'm stupid
You control the NK for only that night

 

[#HBC | Kary]

even with just one Night, it's crazy powerful. It's not unlikely that you would hit scum with the ability, and just imagine if you target one scummer and choose to shoot the other. It's a role that can single-handedly instant-win the game for town.

I wouldn't even consider this role unless there were at least 15 people in the setup.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Yeah you're right.It's a pretty stupid idea :3

I'd like to host a simple mini to see it play out as the mod, to help me get more experienced.
I want to give it the standard cop, tracker, and mafia cop, but with some flavor text as well.

But since we have a couple games looking for signups currently I'll wait though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why,too small probability of occurring?

Too powerful.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

In a mini,( 7 players ) how would a role like this work for the town faction:
Once per game, at night, you can target a player, if that player is mafia aligned, you take control of the mafia's nightkill for that night and can target any player with it save for the player you choose for your original target.

Since it's also an investigative role, would cop have to be removed?

Id personally stay away from almost anything that takes away mafias control of its nk

 

[The Marsh King]

yu also want 2 consider how da mafia wuld feel about getting their nkill ****ed wit so dramatically. simply put itz fun 4 da 1 person redirecting them but ****ty 4 da 2/3 man team yure inflicting. as a mod yu can b thinkin

how can i make this game cool wit some ideas i wanna see play out

how can i make this game fun 4 da players

if yu hav 1 of da fundamental aspects of an entire sides become meaningless (da nkill in dis case) den ****** iz gonna rightfully b salty wen their power failed cuz...da mod thought it wuld b cool? little iz more frustrating as a player den 2 see some whackass **** in a setup that negatively affects yur own faction thru misleading craziness jus cuz da mod thought 'lol ima throw dis in da setup jus 4 whacky lulz '

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Yeah I've realized it's a bad idea now.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

double post

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

yu also want 2 consider how da mafia wuld feel about getting their nkill ****ed wit so dramatically. simply put itz fun 4 da 1 person redirecting them but ****ty 4 da 2/3 man team yure inflicting. as a mod yu can b thinkin

how can i make this game cool wit some ideas i wanna see play out

how can i make this game fun 4 da players

if yu hav 1 of da fundamental aspects of an entire sides become meaningless (da nkill in dis case) den *****z iz gonna rightfully b salty wen their power failed cuz...da mod thought it wuld b cool? little iz more frustrating as a player den 2 see some whackass **** in a setup that negatively affects yur own faction thru misleading craziness jus cuz da mod thought 'lol ima throw dis in da setup jus 4 whacky lulz '

Personally, I had a blast in Skies of Arcadia mafia.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

What's a UPick Mafia like?
How is it different from an ordinary game?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

a upick generally plays out like this:

-players sign up
-players give their flavor of choice (whether it be anything or flavor themed (upick pokemon, choose your pokemon)) to the mod
-mod makes setup based on players choice of flavor
-players get mad cuz setup is broken even though they signed up for a upick*

*this is the standard end result that upicks face, it takes a genius to balance a upick AND make it fit well with the picked flavors

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Thanks.Now I wish there was one going on just to see what it was like myself.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thanks.Now I wish there was one going on just to see what it was like myself.

It's literally exactly the way Gorf described it.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

It's not that his description was insufficient, just that I wanted to experience it.
I could've worded that a lot better. -.-

 

[Wots All This Then?]

*this is the standard end result that upicks face, it takes a genius to balance a upick AND make it fit well with the picked flavors

Aka glyph

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

If you haven't noticed, they're mostly busted as ****. His series was literally labeled "UTrickd" because of their likelihood to make people angry.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yeah but they're amusing as **** and better done than most

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

>better done than most

subjectively, maybe so. but there was definitely a degree of "dafuq" in the setup, at least for the one i played in. i dont necessarily think upicks are cancerous, but its naive to think that youre going to be playing a good, balanced setup when you join a upick.

 

[Maven89]

What's the value/benefit of a day messenger? I mean I can see a few obvious benefits, but is it something that would really need to be balanced around or just something gimmicky that can be put in? Idea being the person would message the mod to post the message

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Imo its not huge but its still extra information flyi g around and you need to account for it somehow or other

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Can anonymously put forward information. Since the source cannot be verified, the role is pretty pointless. It takes extenuating circumstances to make it more than white noise.

 

[Maven89]

So for balance should everything be viewed as a counter to something else, or more of a "they get this, but the other team gets this" without the roles being directly related? I assume both but is there some guideline to follow? I was originally thinking pure counters, cop -> godfather, instead of something like cop->janitor, but was wondering about the fun factor

what about messenger attached to pr? too powerful?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

So for balance should everything be viewed as a counter to something else, or more of a "they get this, but the other team gets this" without the roles being directly related? I assume both but is there some guideline to follow? I was originally thinking pure counters, cop -> godfather, instead of something like cop->janitor, but was wondering about the fun factor

what about messenger attached to pr? too powerful?

Certain roles demand a counter but overall the total power of each side needs to be equivalent. Information roles lioe cop n tracker require it for the most part but theres jot quite a oerfect counter to a mason for example
And it depends on the pr. Ive seen cop variants that send their results to other people in lieu of actually getting a result

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

So for balance should everything be viewed as a counter to something else, or more of a "they get this, but the other team gets this" without the roles being directly related? I assume both but is there some guideline to follow? I was originally thinking pure counters, cop -> godfather, instead of something like cop->janitor, but was wondering about the fun factor

what about messenger attached to pr? too powerful?

First, Godfather ****ing sucks. Second, vanilla cop ****ing sucks. Third, messenger ****ing sucks. These guidelines established, let's move on.

@Overswarm I can't find your post about spiderwebbing game design.

Don't think of it in counters. Think of it in interactions.

Your game should come together as a whole idea. No, this does not mean everything needs to interact with everything else (it is very important that your game have a solid base underneath whatever else you put on top so that the swing is manageable). However, you need to think about, "what will this do to my game and how will that make it special?". Your game's running theme can be a town based around the investigation provided by a one shot census taker, an informed townie who knows things about character alignments and abilities, and a role cop. Meanwhile, mafia is based around controlling and manipulating the votes with a double voter, vote blocker, and an executioner who can only be used on the first two day phases. The direct interaction between these roles are very small. Maybe an executioner ****s with the census taker (in fact that swing makes this hypothetical game a bad idea), but outside of that, they don't really hurt each other. However, Mafia's forte here lies in their ability to augment their pushes and quite possibly derail the investigative results town has by either brute force or WIFOM. Town, on the other hand, is working hard to create concrete connections that cannot be overturned because some key votes are in the wrong place. These two teams are interacting as intended, but they do not directly correlate to each other.

In fact, including hard information roles like Cop or Tracker are a new host's biggest pitfall. They either lead to direct counters and uninteresting set-up, or they provide too much to the town for too little and circumvent the interaction you were aiming to promote. Roles like that (and especially more powerful ones like Watcher or the aforementioned Census Taker) need to be balanced very carefully with defined drawbacks or opportunity cost.