The Salt Factory - Mafia Metagame Discussion Thread

[#HBC | Laundry]

I think everyone who expressed the idea in the social thread at least seemed tentatively okay with the idea, so here goes.

Welcome to the Salt Factory! This topic exists to talk about anything and everything mafia related. While the view is somewhat narrow, the depth of the subject is quite vast and leaves a lot of things to discuss. Things that fall under this umbrella are current state of DGames mafia play, the metagame, meta itself, player feedback, set-up feedback (post-game obviously), and anything else you think relates to mafia and how it's played.

A couple of rules though:

1. DON'T TALK ABOUT ONGOING GAMES
2. Any and all off-topic posts will be redirected to the social thread. Please don't make the mods have to punish you for this, it's really obvious what does and does not belong here.
3. Rule 1 of Mafia games is practiced and enforced here. Don't be a **** to people, don't post ad hominem, and respect everyone, even if you disagree with them.
4. Following in spirit with the previous rule, if a player or a host asks for criticism, be constructive. Negativity helps nobody, don't just say "you suck, this sucks, why are you doing this", instead say "this wasn't such a good idea or this wasn't a good play, but these are what you can do to get better."
5. Really though, don't talk about ongoing games.

That's about it. Post away!

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

One of the very first things I wanna talk about is why we've got a wave of alternate accounts coming in. Ryker's convinced that @SmashFox is one of them, there's still reason to believe that @Maven89 is one (albeit I'd bet on him being an older one that had quit and is coming back), and everyone knows that @#HBC | Leviathan is one. That's not even including AnonCo and its attempted goals.

So this is something I wanna talk about. Why do people believe they need a fresh account to change how people perceive their meta?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because dGames mafia is all about meta and nothing else.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

You wanna know the funny thing? I think Zen ******* about it the most but I think Zen is also the one that uses it the most. He's certainly the one I see referencing it the most in his readslist.

But right now, out of the people playing, how many of them have a distinguishable meta as either alignment?

 

[Gova]

One of the problems is that meta doesn't have to be distinguishable. For example, if someone has a town meta and they're not playing to it, people will come to the conclusion that they're mafia. It won't matter if they have a well defined mafia meta. And vice versa.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I honestly think the meta thing is overstated beyond belief.

Meta to some degree was a reason I quit, but I never got meta'd (in part because I don't have a very distinguished meta (hit me up @#HBC | BarDeeZy YU DUN ****ED UP NOW ZONAR amirite)) but there was just so much... doubt on me. When I played on an alt, playing games was a lot more enjoyable because people didn't work against me just because I had a few good games as scum. That's a matter of me having to improve, ofc, but it's a lot easier to just grab an alt tbqh.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

One of the problems is that meta doesn't have to be distinguishable. For example, if someone has a town meta and they're not playing to it, people will come to the conclusion that they're mafia. It won't matter if they have a well defined mafia meta. And vice versa.

Then that's the fault of the player, not of the site. I don't think it's ever this bad, certainly not so horrible that someone's gotten lynched off of it. It worked in reverse on Gheb/FF in Sleepover to my knowledge.

When I played on an alt, playing games was a lot more enjoyable because people didn't work against me just because I had a few good games as scum. That's a matter of me having to improve, ofc, but it's a lot easier to just grab an alt tbqh.

this is a way better answer. this is also consecutively why i disagree with the "anonymous account" solution. we complain about games stagnating but i think that's in part to nobody really improving, a lot of that having to do with stupid ****.

 

[Gova]

Then that's the fault of the player, not of the site. I don't think it's ever this bad, certainly not so horrible that someone's gotten lynched off of it. It worked in reverse on Gheb/FF in Sleepover to my knowledge.

I'm not sure what you're responding to,if this had something to do with a single player, you wouldn't be having this discussion of why alt accounts exist when you could just tell them what you told me; to get better "it's your fault, not the site" . My previous post has the implication that it's pretty hard to shake meta -> reason to make alternate account. Most games I read people get lynched because of meta. That's what usually happens day 1 either because of inactivity or some people not bothering to try on day 1. This results in either meta or inactivity fallback lynches. And the early part of the game is more relevant with regards to meta so it has more weight.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

There's not a lot to really learn from... that and a lot of players having stagnant/uninteresting playstyles. We haven't seen a proper new powerplayer in forever. I feel like a lot of players kind of just copy or stick to their own thing, but always within safe boundaries. Soup, as an example, might have ****ed up a lot but in turn he learned a lot and at this point he has a very defined playstyle that I honestly find very enjoyable to play with/read.

Oh yeah and our D1s suck lately apparently. I don't remember that being the case last time I played (which was in a hydra with Laundry iirc?) so idk what happened there bois

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

From what I've noticed recently, there's less pull based on meta, albeit that's anecdotal so I am no expert. I'm not sure why people like Zen or marshy are pulling for alternate accounts, both are fairly good at manipulating their own meta. I think the real argument for it would be shedding certain stigmas or paranoia's that follow both of those slots around between games (and there are certainly some stigmas I could do without). I just don't buy alternate accounts as an advisable solution. It doesn't make the game better because you as a player aren't improving. You're just putting on a mask and hiding yourself for as long as you can. I also think that if you're truly capable of pulling off a second persona in mafia then it's certainly possible to change your own approach to the game and therefore destroy that "meta" that seems to follow people around like a very clingy ghost.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

There's not a lot to really learn from... that and a lot of players having stagnant/uninteresting playstyles. We haven't seen a proper new powerplayer in forever. I feel like a lot of players kind of just copy or stick to their own thing, but always within safe boundaries. Soup, as an example, might have ****ed up a lot but in turn he learned a lot and at this point he has a very defined playstyle that I honestly find very enjoyable to play with/read.

sounds to me like we need to be recruiting. nobody scare away eor maven, he's got potential.

I do think that actively receiving and giving criticism to players still capable of learning would help as well. I do, in a bit, want to talk about something I've been trying in games and want some feedback on how I can change my approach up using what I've learned.

Oh yeah and our D1s suck lately apparently. I don't remember that being the case last time I played (which was in a hydra with Laundry iirc?) so idk what happened there bois

Lots of people don't play D1. I have no clue why.

 

[Kantrip]

i definitely considered making an alt account at one point. it was at a time when every game i played in i felt like all my ideas just got discredited because i was "a bad player who would never improve." at that point for me it was between making an alt account where i could escape my meta or leaving the community altogether so i didnt have to deal with a place where i was always dumb

people get so silly sometimes with idolizing some players and berating others. players who were once seen as "good" will never lose that label, even if they take a long break and then come back and play like crap. they can be super inactive, not even reading the game, or just playing sloppily and everyone will listen to them because at one point they were seen as one of the best. similarly, players who get a reputation as being bad will never be taken seriously because others wont let go of how they were considered bad at one point.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lots of people don't play D1. I have no clue why.

I remember this being a thing for a select few players, and honestly playing D1 is hard. If anyone is reading this chat and wants to improve and you're part of the "I don't play D1 crew" then start getting better at it. Do ****ing crazy things. I'd say gimmicks don't fly as easily anymore nowadays but really anything goes. I remember almost being outed by Zen on D1 just from him doing something stupid. ON DAY ONE. By the one guy who always has me as town. Idk. Experiment.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lots of people don't play D1. I have no clue why.

Day 1 is the most important one. Very rarely do I need to read past the Day 1 lynch when I reread to find essential information.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

That's something I've been getting a lot of **** for, my approach to early D1 has been ****. I can't remember the last game I escaped RVS without a wagon on my ass or at least some rumbling suspicion of me. That's part of what I wanna talk about.

I also wanna say that I think we're getting better at that exclusive nature. The only player I've seen get looked down upon recently is Badwolf and part of that (aka everything not involving gorf) was due to how the guy plays rather than who he was.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Day 1 is the most important one. Very rarely do I need to read past the Day 1 lynch when I reread to find essential information.

I tend to agree with this, D1 is when a lot of those early connections scum make are most awkward and less fluent. It's very easy to pick out the connections forming and seeing how people work together. I do read past D1 because sometimes the most important **** to read happens beyond it (I think D2 of Sleepover was way more important to read than D1), but D1 is the most important day phase.

 

[Jdietz43]

The funny thing is after my negative reaction to Zen's AnonCo thread I've opened up to the idea of just letting people use alts if they really really want to. People do them anyways, so why punish people who want to try without bending SWF rules. I do stress though, that I don't think making an alt is an end-all solution. When you make big blunders under a different name, all that happens is people don't know how much credit to give you and treat you that much more harshly for it if you truly deserved it.

tl;dr
People may find alts are a great way to get tough love, but not a way to escape any shortcomings their play has been hiding from them from people giving them meta-credit.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Because, strictly speaking, alts are against SWF rules. We only get away with Hydras due to game shenanigans.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

On the subject of the whole alternate account thing, I can understand why people would want it. In my case, I don't think I'd ever actually use an alt, but I think games would be easier for me if I did. I feel like I get targeted in games a lot for no real reason. People try to sell me bull**** on how they think I'm behaving scummy, but all you have to do is look at games where I played with Orbo on the Riddickulous hydra. I don't do anything differently, and yet in those games, I barely even got voted at all, let alone unjustly wagoned. Ask Orbo, I do 80%+ of the posting on that hydra. I honestly believe the reason I'm well received when posting as Riddick, is because people think it's Orbo posting. I know I can play the damn game, yet the last couple games I've played, I got dogpiled by a lot of the same players, and then got told it was because I only focus on myself. Personally, I think that's bull****.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I have honestly nearly ran an all anonymous private a couple of times, just to see how it'd play out. I still have the PM with the account names and passwords too.

 

[Dooms]

i definitely considered making an alt account at one point. it was at a time when every game i played in i felt like all my ideas just got discredited because i was "a bad player who would never improve." at that point for me it was between making an alt account where i could escape my meta or leaving the community altogether so i didnt have to deal with a place where i was always dumb

100% this word for word.

Not saying that I've improved or that I'm decent or anything, but if I'm going to be labeled as scum whenever I try to improve/change my gameplay, then I'd much rather make an alt and try to improve under that.

people get so silly sometimes with idolizing some players and berating others. players who were once seen as "good" will never lose that label, even if they take a long break and then come back and play like crap. they can be super inactive, not even reading the game, or just playing sloppily and everyone will listen to them because at one point they were seen as one of the best. similarly, players who get a reputation as being bad will never be taken seriously because others wont let go of how they were considered bad at one point.

I also agree with this for the most part, but I don't feel that this is ALWAYS the case if that makes sense?

 

[Ashemu]

I have honestly nearly ran an all anonymous private a couple of times, just to see how it'd play out. I still have the PM with the account names and passwords too.

the only fun way to do that is to let people pick their own account names/gimmicks. tbh

ps: invite me

 

[Ashemu]

(i've played in/hosted several all-anon games, usually they turn out pretty well, if they don't it's not because of the anonymous gimmick but due to **** that would ruin any mafia game.)

(the only problem is that occasionally you get people being stupid and going "well it's obvious who this player is so...")

 

[we thuggin]

/inb4niggazstartplayinlikeotherniggaz

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

i definitely considered making an alt account at one point. it was at a time when every game i played in i felt like all my ideas just got discredited because i was "a bad player who would never improve." at that point for me it was between making an alt account where i could escape my meta or leaving the community altogether so i didnt have to deal with a place where i was always dumb

people get so silly sometimes with idolizing some players and berating others. players who were once seen as "good" will never lose that label, even if they take a long break and then come back and play like crap. they can be super inactive, not even reading the game, or just playing sloppily and everyone will listen to them because at one point they were seen as one of the best. similarly, players who get a reputation as being bad will never be taken seriously because others wont let go of how they were considered bad at one point.

Seperate meta and reputation. Those are not the same concepts.

On that subject so long as there are sheep, games will continue to be convincing Ryker, Zen, or Marshy to push what you want because they control the lynch. Note this is not a license to not change your opinion and to sit on it because **** listening to others.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

On the subject of the whole alternate account thing, I can understand why people would want it. In my case, I don't think I'd ever actually use an alt, but I think games would be easier for me if I did. I feel like I get targeted in games a lot for no real reason. People try to sell me bull**** on how they think I'm behaving scummy, but all you have to do is look at games where I played with Orbo on the Rid****ulous hydra. I don't do anything differently, and yet in those games, I barely even got voted at all, let alone unjustly wagoned. Ask Orbo, I do 80%+ of the posting on that hydra. I honestly believe the reason I'm well received when posting as Rid****, is because people think it's Orbo posting. I know I can play the damn game, yet the last couple games I've played, I got dogpiled by a lot of the same players, and then got told it was because I only focus on myself. Personally, I think that's bull****.

That's a tough pill for me to swallow.

Alts can suck a fat one because people think they'll accomplish something that they won't. Everyone thinks it will lead to them having a better influence on the game and anonymity is only going to make sure that you get put in a spotlight when you **** up. It won't magically gain you more credit, it will likely do the opposite.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

/inb4*****zstartplayinlikeother*****z

That's the fun of it and why it doesn't correlate at all to true alts.

 

[Ashemu]

i think anonymous games are outright better than having alts because of what ryker's saying. and if you don't like them you can just not join!

hell if people want, since i have prior experience with anon games, i'll take the plunge and host one if somebody wants to co-mod and check whatever set-up i whip up (already about to host a game elsewhere so i'd rather not tackle it solo). beats a bunch of discussion about the possibility but nobody actually doing anything

i would need somebody to explain to me how alt rules work though, like do i have to run everything through xv or something like zen did when setting up our hydra?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

You wanna know the funny thing? I think Zen *****es about it the most but I think Zen is also the one that uses it the most. He's certainly the one I see referencing it the most in his readslist.

But right now, out of the people playing, how many of them have a distinguishable meta as either alignment?

agreed @ first para. i dont think anyone really does but the problem is A LOOOOOT of people think A LOOOOOT of people do. and unfortunately this ISNT something thats just going to change, no matter how much people want it to. some players base their game around meta. and unless you wanna kick em out theyre gonna continue playing to meta. its sad but true.

 

[Ashemu]

i feel like it's basically impossible to play mafia without using meta on a subconscious level, and that doing so would actually cause your game to suffer

you just need to know when to use it. it should supplement scumhunting, not replace it

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Meta exists and should be used, but like everything else, it is circumstantial and this brand of evidence is easily outdated. I can and will continue to use meta, but I don't THINK I've ever made a case with meta that wasn't based in other facts. At LEAST heavy process of elimination.

That's the trick. Meta is literally never enough on its own.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Nor should it be. Nobody here is bad enough that their meta is so strict and so black-and-white that it's obvious when they are scum and when they are not. Most people here are at least solid at manipulating their meta and using it to their advantage.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

the only fun way to do that is to let people pick their own account names/gimmicks. tbh

ps: invite me

naw, names are somewhat traceable depending on what you pick. they could come up with their own gimmicks all they like but the name itself would be something generic and fitting to the flavor (which i still have).

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

i think anonymous games are outright better than having alts because of what ryker's saying. and if you don't like them you can just not join!

hell if people want, since i have prior experience with anon games, i'll take the plunge and host one if somebody wants to co-mod and check whatever set-up i whip up (already about to host a game elsewhere so i'd rather not tackle it solo). beats a bunch of discussion about the possibility but nobody actually doing anything

i would need somebody to explain to me how alt rules work though, like do i have to run everything through xv or something like zen did when setting up our hydra?

help me run mine. i need to remake the set-up but i have the flavor and ideas for it in tact.

 

[Xivii]

You wanna know the funny thing? I think Zen *****es about it the most but I think Zen is also the one that uses it the most. He's certainly the one I see referencing it the most in his readslist.

But right now, out of the people playing, how many of them have a distinguishable meta as either alignment?

Leave me alone.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

People also misremember stuff a ****load. Like, I've had people try to use my past games as examples of why I'm scum, and they get what happened in that game completely wrong. Nobody does any goddamn research on what they're talking about.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That's a problem with people, not a problem with meta itself.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

oh i know. I totally use meta, there's nothing wrong with it. I just feel like people misuse it a lot. Too often, people either use nothing but meta, or they don't use it at all.

 

[Ashemu]

naw, names are somewhat traceable depending on what you pick.

that's true but they also make the game more fun

 

[Ashemu]

but yea laundry ill co-mod your game since youre doing mod-given names, id rather join if names are pickable but i guess everybody would know i was playing if that happened so i'd have to co-mod then too