Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[NintenRob]

Size REALLY doesn't matter since Ridley IS THE SAME SIZE AS BOWSER. Why has no one brought up the shadow?
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985

STOP TALKING ABOUT SIZE!!!

Seriously, We pretty much already know Ridley is about the same size as Bowser, this doesn't need to be discussed further.

 

[ppbto]

"Lemme ask you somethin'. Does this look right to you?"

So...concept art. Concept. Short intro in cutscene in SSBM. Those aren't from the games. That doesn't really help much.

Once again, this is subjective matter. What for some people could be good for other people could be bad. Opinions can't be wrong nor right, they can only be agreed or disagreed. Therefore opinions can't be used as an argument.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

On a side note, do those, @ ppbto , look right to you?

Actually the second one is a crappy example because that's ripped from the SSBM trophy...my bad.

 

[Sehnsucht]

"Lemme ask you somethin'. Does this look right to you?"

Simply scaling him down would not look good. They'd have to redo his proportions drastically.

It would be more "respectable" to the canon, in my view, for him to be a boss rather than playable. He would not look good merely scaled down. He is too big. He has always been a nonhuman boss, unlike the other big bois. He is always coming back from the dead. Samus lacks control over when or how he appears. Many reasons that I have to resort to without saying that, in my opinion, he intuitively not work well as a playable character.

A) In the Metroid series, Ridley is characterized universally across all of his appearances as being substantially larger than Samus (and other human(oid) entities).

B) In order for Ridley to be incorporated as a playable character in a Smash environment, he would need to be scaled down to the range occupied by other heavyweights. He would be more the size of a large and gangly gargoyle than a giant and imposing dragon from space, as is the case in Metroid canon.

C) I would be 100% absolutely fine with this inevitable and necessary trade-off, as it would mean that I get to play as Ridley in Smash. Such a Ridley may be a bastardized Ridley, but only in relation to Metroid canon -- which has no influence on the degree to which I would wreck people with Ridley in For Glory mode.

EDIT: or a male-dog-ified Ridley

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So, are we done yet with all of that size thing? I want to go back to working on AndreaAC`s references, but can`t because i want to be part of the serious discussion...or just any discussion.

A) In the Metroid series, Ridley is characterized universally across all of his appearances as being substantially larger than Samus (and other human(oid) entities).

Rundas is as big as Omega Ridley, if not bigger. And he fits into humanoid entities category.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Well, I'm getting a bit tired myself. I guess I'll be done with this discussion soon...or now, if everyone's tired of it. Haha.

 

[ppbto]

On a side note, do those, @ ppbto , look right to you?

Actually the second one is a crappy example because that's ripped from the SSBM trophy...my bad.

I have seen better mods.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I have seen better mods.

Hear that, @ IsmaR ?

@ ppbto here thinks you've been slackin'.

 

[shrooby]

Well they did confirm Palutena would be a better character then Pit.

"Anything an angel can do, a goddes can do better"

I hope we get some conversations in there, I want to see Hades talk about Ridley (or be playable and fight Ridley himself)

Yeah...well!
"Anything Palutena can do I can do better!"
- Viridi

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly; however, that also applies to the Ridley supporters arbitrarily asserting that he would be re-scaled to a workable size. We are just presuming to understand what Sakurai may or may not do. If we did not discuss anything subjective, there would be no speculation.

Well of course there should subjectivity. But there doesn't need to be subjectivity in the things we need to consider when rating character chances.
There's a general consensus, for example, that potentiality to be unique and popularity among fans are factors that have some sort of impact on the selection process. How big the impact is of those factors is what varies from person to person. There's also subjectivity as to what degree a particular character may or may not have that potentiality to be unique. These are worthwhile discussions. Random factors that aren't based on Sakurai's vague criteria (You know, that five or six item list he gave some years ago.), or aren't confirmed to be factors by other means (Like the Nintendog comment) shouldn't be considered.
It's arbitrary to assume that size and "goddess-ness" make a difference as much as it is to think that a character being bald makes them less likely. We have no concise reason to believe either have influence.

The stance that I've seen Ridley supporters take, or at least the stance they should take, is that Ridley could be resized. This is different from what you had typed:
"that also applies to the Ridley supporters arbitrarily asserting that he would be re-scaled to a workable size."
The way supporters argue is that they assume a character's size could make a difference, and then argue how this may not necessarily apply to Ridley. This is in response to the fact that detractors will usually state their opinion in an absolute way. (RIDLEY CAN'T WORK.) No no no, Ridley could be re-scaled if need be, I type in response, don't be so absolutist. A detractor, in this case, is assuming much more than I am. I'm assuming that this arbitrary factor may or may not make a difference and arguing that it probably doesn't in this particular case, where as they're assuming that it makes a huge impact.
It's either that or they argue how size couldn't possibly be a factor at all, usually citing Bowser and Olimar. The difference here is that actual examples are being cited to support the claim that size is not a potential factor. What is being cited in the detractor's case? Did Sakurai ever say that he excluded a character due to size?

The less assumptions we make the better.
But, eh, perhaps I am being a tad too black-or-white about it, but I stand by my original point.
That is, the less words we try to shove into Sakurai's mouth the better. It's near-impossible for us to not lean on a certain degree of subjectivity, but where we can clearly avoid leaning we should.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I have seen better mods.

This isn't that bad, but Samus is almost Ridley's height. And he's still big, and that tail and part of his wings could cause some hurtbox confusion. And...he just doesn't look right. Can't explain it, he just doesn't. Maybe it's him flying idly with his tail on the ground. I don't know. He's a too-big boi.

Anyways, I'll end with that. Goodnight, all, nice arguing with you guys. I probably won't provoke another big discussion again (although I said that a few days ago) but anyways, good night, and day, and next day, night, etc. to you all. Thanks again for the discussion.

 

[NintenRob]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985


Stahp, Size argument = Invalid,

 

[Jigglypuff & Luma]

This isn't that bad, but Samus is almost Ridley's height. And he's still big, and that tail and part of his wings could cause some hurtbox confusion. And...he just doesn't look right. Can't explain it, he just doesn't. Maybe it's him flying idly with his tail on the ground. I don't know. He's a too-big boi.

Anyways, I'll end with that. Goodnight, all, nice arguing with you guys. I probably won't provoke another big discussion again (although I said that a few days ago) but anyways, good night, and day, and next day, night, etc. to you all. Thanks again for the discussion.

You're welcome (I know I wasn't involved, I was asleep -_-)

 

[Sehnsucht]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985


Stahp, Size argument = Invalid,

Is there something you want to tell us, 8-bit man?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

This isn't that bad, but Samus is almost Ridley's height. And he's still big, and that tail and part of his wings could cause some hurtbox confusion. And...he just doesn't look right. Can't explain it, he just doesn't. Maybe it's him flying idly with his tail on the ground. I don't know. He's a too-big boi.

I agree that this Ridley hack doesn`t looks right, but that is only because of Ridley`s model they used having Charizard`s rig. It makes him look bizzare and detractors usually use this hack to show how wrong Ridley would look. Compare it to this:

Looks better, right? If no, then why? Missing feet doesn`t counts.
Tail should NOT be part of Ridley`s hurtboxes. Im not saying that it couldn`t be. They should never be part of his hurtboxes. Tail is always his only part that is not a weak spot in Metroid games. In Metroid Prime games, it is one of the parts of Ridley that are not his weak points. It can even block Hyper Beam, something that even Kraid and Crocomire can`t.
Good night, Jerry..?

That was entertaining. Now we can finally go back to discussing Kraid`s new haircut. Do you like how it looks?

 

[NintenRob]

Is there something you want to tell us, 8-bit man?

Maybe.

 

[ppbto]

This isn't that bad, but Samus is almost Ridley's height. And he's still big, and that tail and part of his wings could cause some hurtbox confusion. And...he just doesn't look right. Can't explain it, he just doesn't. Maybe it's him flying idly with his tail on the ground. I don't know. He's a too-big boi.

By now, you give me the impression that your only argument is that "he wouldn't look right". And you're trying to use fan-mods to support your claim.

We don't know how Sakurai's team will handle Ridley's model. You shouldn't make an opinion on something that you haven't seen yet.

 

[AustarusIV]

Detractors seem to miss the point on that modders who try to make Ridley playable are usually inexperienced and lack the tech needed to make him a convincing fighter. Ridley in Brawl was designed to be a sluggish boss that floated in the air, attacking players by swooping down at them.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Fine, one last post before I'm done for tonight.

You're right! And you have no idea if it will look right either. That's why I'm guessing it won't look good, and they won't put it in, just as y'all are guessing Ridley is playable. He looks goofy scaled down, they'd have to make a brand-new model with new proportions.

And in that screenshot his tail is real stiff and too big. And he's too big, and intuitively looks wrong.

Man, I'd look like a grump with a less funny avatar. Goodnight y'all. Thanks for the debate.

 

[NintenRob]

Fine, one last post before I'm done for tonight.

You're right! And you have no idea if it will look right either. That's why I'm guessing it won't look good, and they won't put it in, just as y'all are guessing Ridley is playable. He looks goofy scaled down, they'd have to make a brand-new model with new proportions.

And in that screenshot his tail is real stiff and too big. And he's too big, and intuitively looks wrong.

Man, I'd look like a grump with a less-funny avatar. Goodnight y'all.

Whether or not he looks weird or not, thats around the size he will be
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ridley-for-ssb4-thread-ridleytalk.324284/page-712#post-16789789

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985

 

[IsmaR]

If anything it shows how Bowser is canonically scaled up and donw to fit his roles in the Mario games, not just for Smash.

This is true for practically every single playable character EVER. You notice how Honey Queen is huge when she's not playable, but not huge when she's playable? That's for a character that dwarfs even the mighty Bowser (and has.had like no popularity, but that's besides the point), yet was scaled down because she could be.

Repeatedly have to fetch this quote, but:

This is how much Sakurai has cared about scaling of any magnitude since the first SSB game.

Spoiler

Mind you this is the same game they're being rescaled. And there are plenty of other examples throughout the series. Bowser (read, not Giga Bowser) was the not-true boss of Adventure Mode in Melee, and got scaled up (even moreso depending on the difficulty):

Compare to:

Furthermore Charizard wasn't always playable, and, of course, his size fluctuated when he became so. Before:

After (spoiler'd because big):

Spoiler

I'm not tired of size arguments so much as people making incredibly asinine "exceptions/rules" that only Ridley has to adhere to. Sakurai says size is not always true to scale...except for Ridley? What? Or my favorite, "bosses are more fitting as bosses" and "bosses are big to fit the role. They look weird when scaled down!" Nothing you yourself have said (or at least not in this specific instance), but the reason people come off as annoyed/tired of these arguments is because they've been done to death in this thread, yet since we don't convince every single person in the world because we're not Sakurai or whatever, the arguments are always overlooked for the same reasoning they always are, making this all seem like a whole lot of effort for nothing.

In the end, as many have said, none of it really matters. Whatever we personally feel won't make any difference ultimately, but for whatever outcome does occur, by no means should anything be "accepted" to be the end-all-be-all "truth" as to why something is/isn't. Sakurai has never said Ridley's too big, nor that he's better off being playable/a boss/whatever. And contrary to popular belief, it is NOT impossible for ANYTHING to be scaled down/up or made playable. It not happening doesn't magically make the detractors arguments any more "valid."

 

[ppbto]

Fine, one last post before I'm done for tonight.

You're right! And you have no idea if it will look right either. That's why I'm guessing it won't look good, and they won't put it in, just as y'all are guessing Ridley is playable. He looks goofy scaled down, they'd have to make a brand-new model with new proportions.

And in that screenshot his tail is real stiff and too big. And he's too big, and intuitively looks wrong.

Man, I'd look like a grump with a less funny avatar. Goodnight y'all. Thanks for the debate.

This is why opinions shouldn't be used in a debate.

We don't know how he would look, but if you think it would look bad beforehand then it'll more likely that it would look bad for you, regardless of how good or bad the model would be. In short words: you're biased.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I keep coming back...


Everyone's biased big boi.

You, me, erryone in the world ever. Biased. Bias, shaped by experiences, reasoning, thinking, emotions, people, important things, non-important things, you name it. Everyone is biased on everything to some degree, no avoiding that.

Yes, I'm biased in this debate, but I do have reasons. I stated facts and when it called for it, opinions. Both sides have expressed facts and opinions here, correct? Plus this has nothing to do with prejudice, is not a serious debate (in which case you must not be biased), and lastly has everything to do with debating about a video game that we are not developing.

I'm done debating and editing my posts and tagging people and quoting things and checking notifications for the night. Goodnight big bois, for real this time.

 

[Jigglypuff & Luma]

This isn't that bad, but Samus is almost Ridley's height. And he's still big, and that tail and part of his wings could cause some hurtbox confusion. And...he just doesn't look right. Can't explain it, he just doesn't. Maybe it's him flying idly with his tail on the ground. I don't know. He's a too-big boi.

Anyways, I'll end with that. Goodnight, all, nice arguing with you guys. I probably won't provoke another big discussion again (although I said that a few days ago) but anyways, good night, and day, and next day, night, etc. to you all. Thanks again for the discussion.

You're welcome (I know I wasn't involved, I was asleep -_-)

 

[majora_787]

I'm too tired for these size shenanigans. We've got more important stuff to talk about. Like Phantoon's toes. And Link's new Skyward Sword outfit.

Also, semi-related. I'm getting a SSB64 Player's Guide for literally no reason other than I feel like it. Will keep you guys posted if Ridley ends up being mentioned or having any attention brought to him in it.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

I'm too tired for these size shenanigans. We've got more important stuff to talk about. Like Phantoon's toes. And Link's new Skyward Sword outfit.

Don`t forget Kraid`s new haircut, Mother Brain`s glasses, Draygon`s new gloves and Peach getting kidnapped by Bowser again.

 

[ppbto]

I keep coming back...

Everyone's biased big boi.

You, me, erryone in the world ever. Biased. Bias, shaped by experiences, reasoning, thinking, emotions, you name it. Everyone is biased on everything to some degree, no avoiding that.

Bias: Prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair.

I'm not biased, Good debater is capable of maintain his personal opinions away from they arguments and line of thinking.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm more worried that they're gonna do more palette swaps than actual costumes for everyone that isn't WFT/Wario. They could have at least taken the hat off.

While I wouldn't mind just a "Meta Ridley colored" alt, it'll pale in comparison to the actual thing, much like the Fusion-color Samus.

 

[AustarusIV]

We're obviously going to get a "Kraid-colored" alt for Ridley.

 

[IsmaR]

Wouldn't that just be Godzilla?

On that note, he needs a Fire Rhodan palette swap.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Double post? Report yourself @ IsmaR !

 

[BaganSmashBros]

And Dina Blade palette swap!

 

[IsmaR]

Double post? Report yourself @ IsmaR !

Blame the Legos.

Weren't you supposed to be gone already

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I haven't really seen a Ridley alt costume as much of a possibility since it's Other Ridley we're talking about. His proportions and stance differs a ton from every other Ridley design, the neck and hunch of his previous designs being the biggest difference, so it wouldn't work unless they change the hitboxes for the costumes too, and that's a big no no.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

@ IsmaR Yes but I'm a night owl who has to plan to go to log off/go to sleep a few times before actually doing it...

Sorry for being annoying I just love arguing with people here...too much fun big boi.

 

[NintenRob]

I really think Ridley will be playable, there is too much suggesting he will be.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Here are your Ridley references, @ AndreaAC :

Spoiler: Roidley

Spoiler: Ridley

If required, i can make more references of this poses in different angles. I tried to make their sitting pose as close to ZM manga`s as possible.

I really think Ridley will be playable, there is too much suggesting he will be.

I think so too. There is no point in resizing Ridley unless they want him to fit a certain role that requires big and too small characters to be resized.

I like that avatar more than my previous *drinks his tea*

 

[AndreaAC]

Here are your Ridley references, @ AndreaAC :

Spoiler: Roidley

Spoiler: Ridley

If required, i can make more references of this poses in different angles. I tried to make their sitting pose as close to ZM manga`s as possible.

I think so too. There is no point in resizing Ridley unless they want him to fit a certain role that requires big and too small characters to be resized.

I like that avatar more than my previous *drinks his tea*

xD Awww, Ridley looks adorable...and Roids too (wow I never thought I would say that...) -u- Thanks a ton! and you could do that? I would love to have more refs...but I don't want to put you under pressure...

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Here are your Ridley references, @ AndreaAC :

Spoiler: Roidley

Spoiler: Ridley

If required, i can make more references of this poses in different angles. I tried to make their sitting pose as close to ZM manga`s as possible.

I think so too. There is no point in resizing Ridley unless they want him to fit a certain role that requires big and too small characters to be resized.

I like that avatar more than my previous *drinks his tea*

The way Ridley sits in that last picture reminds me of a puppy.

 

[NintenRob]

Anybody else want a pet Ridley now?

 

[BaganSmashBros]

xD Awww, Ridley looks adorable...and Roids too (wow I never thought I would say that...) -u- Thanks a ton! and you could do that? I would love to have more refs...but I don't want to put you under pressure...

Neither have i...Sure i can do more, its just a matter of time...if that is what you meant. I can make them take Super Metroid pose if needed.
So, just side, from above, behind and...um...profile...angles?