Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

[shrooby]

The thing I dislike about the size argument, and this applies to so many "arguments" that come up against many characters, is that they're basically attempts to read the developer's minds.
It's trying to apply arbitrary speculatory "factors" that we have no reason to think make a difference in the selection process, and trying to argue that they do make a difference. It just isn't concise and isn't backed by non-objective past examples of character inclusion or exclusions.
This kind of speculation was brought up with Palutena a few times as well. I read some argue that she wouldn't be included (CAN'T WORK) because she's a goddess, and is therefor supposed to be extremely powerful, like any god would be. This, apparently, couldn't translate well to a fighter. And as everyone is aware, this clearly didn't influence the selection process
This is the same kind of thing. We don't have confirmed purposeful exclusions that could possibly allude to this being a deciding factor. By "confirmed purposeful exclusions" I mean like what Sakurai himself said about Nintendog. A character was at some point considered and was then purposefully excluded for a particular reason. That is different than never even considering a character in the first place.
The speculation process is supposed to be as concise as possible. Usually, people generally work with a somewhat concise "list" of possible factors that seem to influence the selection process based on objective evidence, IE past inclusions and confirmed purposeful exclusions. Sure, some may think that one factor is more important than another, but there is some consensus as to what those factors are; that's how Rate There Chances is even able to be a thing. But some try to make a mess of the process by introducing factors that are not confirmed to even make a difference, or at least backed by confirmed past examples.

Really, the response to the size argument should just be "stop trying to read Sakurai's mind."
#philosophyonsomethingasuselessasSmashspeculation

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah, you have a point. It's just that a mere resizing won't do the job, aesthetically at least, as seen in several screenshots of mods and hacks. They would probably have to make a model with altered proportions no other Ridley model has had to make him look right, and that is something I do not believe they have done with any other characters.

Best possible argument; yet we have seen good proportions ourselves That pic from angelglory with Olimar, Charizard, Ganondorf, Mario, Bowser, shows it.

Also, in regards to the canon argument, obviously if Ridley gets from being a Torchic size chicken to a space monster, he grows trough some medium size space dragon. Tada, sci fi solved.

 

[majora_787]

Also, conveniently, I didn't notice: The one size where Bowser was resized to be LESS than over twice Mario's height was the only one of those pictures in which he was playable.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

And just in case someone will say something about system limitations - show that Godzilla Monster of Monsters screenshot, which means that NES sprites can be larger than NES Ridley`s.

 

[NintenRob]

The thing I dislike about the size argument, and this applies to so many "arguments" that come up against many characters, is that they're basically attempts to read the developer's minds.
It's trying to apply arbitrary speculatory "factors" that we have no reason to think make a difference in the selection process, and trying to argue that they do make a difference. It just isn't concise and isn't backed by non-objective past examples of character inclusion or exclusions.
This kind of speculation was brought up with Palutena a few times as well. I read some argue that she wouldn't be included (CAN'T WORK) because she's a goddess, and is therefor supposed to be extremely powerful, like any god would be. This, apparently, couldn't translate well to a fighter. And as everyone is aware, this clearly didn't influence the selection process
This is the same kind of thing. We don't have confirmed purposeful exclusions that could possibly allude to this being a deciding factor. By "confirmed purposeful exclusions" I mean like what Sakurai himself said about Nintendog. A character was at some point considered and was then purposefully excluded for a particular reason. That is different than never even considering a character in the first place.
The speculation process is supposed to be as concise as possible. Usually, people generally work with a somewhat concise "list" of possible factors that seem to influence the selection process based on objective evidence, IE past inclusions and confirmed purposeful exclusions. Sure, some may think that one factor is more important than another, but there is some consensus as to what those factors are; that's how Rate There Chances is even able to be a thing. But some try to make a mess of the process by introducing factors that are not confirmed to even make a difference, or at least backed by confirmed past examples.

Really, the response to the size argument should just be "stop trying to read Sakurai's mind."
#philosophyonsomethingasuselessasSmashspeculation

Well they did confirm Palutena would be a better character then Pit.

"Anything an angel can do, a goddes can do better"

I hope we get some conversations in there, I want to see Hades talk about Ridley (or be playable and fight Ridley himself)

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

@ Jerry Applesauce , Let put this in a simple way, what are your arguments against Ridley's playability? Please without opinionated arguments.

It started here and then here today, if you would like to read. Haha. The first one concludes with me writing a large paragraph expressing my gratefulness to everyone for the argument, and then me jokingly responding to another user who tagged in me in a post.

 

[TheWozny]

Yeah, goes to show how much he varies in size.

I fail to see how these help your point. If anything, they show that a large character from Super Mario is resized for Smash.

 

[Morbi]

The thing I dislike about the size argument, and this applies to so many "arguments" that come up against many characters, is that they're basically attempts to read the developer's minds.
It's trying to apply arbitrary speculatory "factors" that we have no reason to think make a difference in the selection process, and trying to argue that they do make a difference. It just isn't concise and isn't backed by non-objective past examples of character inclusion or exclusions.
This kind of speculation was brought up with Palutena a few times as well. I read some argue that she wouldn't be included (CAN'T WORK) because she's a goddess, and is therefor supposed to be extremely powerful, like any god would be. This, apparently, couldn't translate well to a fighter. And as everyone is aware, this clearly didn't influence the selection process
This is the same kind of thing. We don't have confirmed purposeful exclusions that could possibly allude to this being a deciding factor. By "confirmed purposeful exclusions" I mean like what Sakurai himself said about Nintendog. A character was at some point considered and was then purposefully excluded for a particular reason. That is different than never even considering a character in the first place.
The speculation process is supposed to be as concise as possible. Usually, people generally work with a somewhat concise "list" of possible factors that seem to influence the selection process based on objective evidence, IE past inclusions and confirmed purposeful exclusions. Sure, some may think that one factor is more important than another, but there is some consensus as to what those factors are; that's how Rate There Chances is even able to be a thing. But some try to make a mess of the process by introducing factors that are not confirmed to even make a difference, or at least backed by confirmed past examples.

Really, the response to the size argument should just be "stop trying to read Sakurai's mind."
#philosophyonsomethingasuselessasSmashspeculation

I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly; however, that also applies to the Ridley supporters arbitrarily asserting that he would be re-scaled to a workable size. We are just presuming to understand what Sakurai may or may not do. If we did not discuss anything subjective, there would be no speculation.

 

[NintenRob]

Size REALLY doesn't matter since Ridley IS THE SAME SIZE AS BOWSER. Why has no one brought up the shadow?
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/69306985

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

If anything it shows how Bowser is canonically scaled up and donw to fit his roles in the Mario games, not just for Smash.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

It started here and then here today, if you would like to read. Haha. The first one concludes with me writing a large paragraph expressing my gratefulness to everyone for the argument, and then me jokingly responding to another user who tagged in me in a post.

Compress it into a single post. Something like:
1. Canonical size matters.
2. Whatever else you want to say.
3. Whatever else you want to say.
4. Whatever else you want to say.
That would make it easier.

 

[majora_787]

If anything it shows how Bowser is canonically scaled up and donw to fit his roles in the Mario games, not just for Smash.

But he is always consistently twice Mario's size or larger no matter how much he is scaled around when he is a boss in a canon non-spinoff game.

That's literally the same boat Ridley is in.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Compress it into a single post. Something like:
1. Canonical size matters.
2. Whatever else you want to say.
3. Whatever else you want to say.
4. Whatever else you want to say.
That would make it easier.

If you have the time to write big boi paragraphs, you have the time to scroll through big boi threads.

 

[majora_787]

And really yes this whole conversation is kind of unnecessary because "If Ridley can or would be resized" is not the issue. He clearly has been. The problem is, was he resized for no reason? Or was he resized to fit a playable role?

 

[AustarusIV]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...e-pirate-lounge.324284/page-637#post-16728288

Now what were you saying about ridley being too big?

The more I keep looking at your picture of Ridley in Other M's Pyrosphere (in gameplay), the more convinced I am that his size is more or less great for a large playable character. He might need to be sized down somewhat like Ganondorf from Twilight Princess, but it wouldn't look like a drastic change.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

But he is always consistently twice Mario's size or larger no matter how much he is scaled around when he is a boss in a canon non-spinoff game.

That's literally the same boat Ridley is in.

Yes, all true. But Ridley has ALWAYS been a boss. Always. Even in Nintendoland he's a bawss.

And, unless they drastically change his proportions to make him look and feel right (i.e. fatten/slim his limbs, increase/decrease size of head or wings) in a way that he has never been in any Metroid game, then I can't see it happening. Simply resizing everything cannot do.

 

[Morbi]

And really yes this whole conversation is kind of unnecessary because "If Ridley can or would be resized" is not the issue. He clearly has been. The problem is, was he resized for no reason? Or was he resized to fit a playable role?

It is not even a question of whether or not he was re-sized "for no reason" as there is quite clearly a reason, a method to the madness. Even if it is a reason we do not wish to hear.

 

[JaidynReiman]

You missed it big boi, Jump Glide is one of Palutena's interchangeable Special Attacks. And @ majora_787 is right, they haven't shown the glide mechanic for other characters and it could be cut just for Pit.

How did I "miss" it? I'm well aware its one of Palutena's interchangeable abilities, and I saw how it worked. Its not like the Brawl glide mechanic but its actually just like Peach's hover or her parasol.


Are people still arguing about this whole Ridley size ordeal? Seriously? We know the argument is dead already, its been proven countless times that size doesn't matter and is entirely inconsistent in both Mario and Metroid games.

And Ridley has already been resized anyway. Concept Art Other M Ridley resized down slightly would actually be perfect for a playable Ridley, since Roidley is a lot more muscular and not as skinny. I've seen all the mockups people have done of it and I think he looks great.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

The more I keep looking at your picture of Ridley in Other M's Pyrosphere (in gameplay), the more convinced I am that his size is more or less great for a large playable character. He might need to be sized down somewhat like Ganondorf from Twilight Princess, but it wouldn't look like a drastic change.

View attachment 16939

Is this the consensual size (taking up the entire center) everyone has declared for his Smash Bros appearance?

 

[ppbto]

Just gonna barge right in here and ask, has anyone equated Ridley being playable to Andross being playable yet? I won't do it, although I am a "detractor," but I'm wondering if anyone has brought that thought up yet. It's got to have crossed someone else's mind other than mine, big boys.

Sorry, but this is a fallacy (False Analogy). You can't compare Andross with Ridley. You have to elaborate why you think they are similar.

The Nintendogs argument is irrelevant because everyone and everything but the stage and the stage hazards are supposed to look small like that. Every character and item are supposed to look minuscule in comparison to the dog and toys. Sure, there's the Nintendog Assist Trophy but again, that's an Assist, a separate entity than a stage hazard, also scaled alongside the characters. And why are the characters scaled? They're trophies. Why are the items scaled? To fit the size of the characters. Are stages/stage hazards trophies? No. Does everything need to be up to scale together? No. But the character and items sizes are and have to be scaled together. The stages and stage hazards are sized how they are sized.

KAPOWIE, BIG BOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS.

And your point is?
Here you're assuming that because he's a stage hazard he will be sized as a stage hazard, that could be true, but we still don't know if Ridley is playable or a stage hazard.

 

[majora_787]

Yes, all true. But Ridley has ALWAYS been a boss. Always. Even in Nintendoland he's a bawss.

And, unless they drastically change his proportions to make him look and feel right (i.e. fatten/slim his limbs, increase/decrease size of head or wings) in a way that he has never been in any Metroid game, then I can't see it happening. Simply resizing everything cannot do.

Like I said. "Has always been a boss" means nothing. Ganondorf had always been a boss. Then they made him playable. It *does not mean anything*. Everyone is literally always something until they are something else. This argument is literally you trying to row people across a river on a slice of swiss cheese.

 

[Morbi]

Like I said. "Has always been a boss" means nothing. Ganondorf had always been a boss. Then they made him playable. It *does not mean anything*.

I agree that it is not material; however, Ganondorf was never established as a boss within the Smash canon. Ridley was. So the comparison is not necessarily relevant either.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Like I said. "Has always been a boss" means nothing. Ganondorf had always been a boss. Then they made him playable. It *does not mean anything*.

This, right here. Ganondorf has always been a boss, but he was still made playable in Smash Bros. Whether he's in his Ganon form or in his Ganondorf form, he's still the same ole Ganondorf and he's always, ALWAYS been a boss.

Didn't stop them from resizing Ganondorf and making him playable (he's HUGE in Twilight Princess, though not quite as big as Ridley) but Ganondorf is still playable in Smash Bros.

 

[majora_787]

I agree that it is not material; however, Ganondorf was never established as a boss within the Smash canon. Ridley was. So the comparison is not necessarily relevant either.

Ridley was established as a background character and *not* a boss before he was established as a boss within Smash canon. Giga Bowser also changed roles from being a boss in Smash canon to being a transformation. Characters change roles all the time in Smash Bros. and Ridley is the best example of it, fulfilling a different role in every game he has ever been in.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

@ majora_787 But Ganondorf is a human (or Gerudo if you want to techincal), and generally, as I pointed out before, humans (or at least, the ones that look most human) generally have the same height, save for Ganon as he is a bit taller than the rest, as he is a bit of a big boi. So I think he can guess that humans (barring Little Mac and Rosalina) have a general range of height they must be within, should they not?

 

[ppbto]

The more I keep looking at your picture of Ridley in Other M's Pyrosphere (in gameplay), the more convinced I am that his size is more or less great for a large playable character. He might need to be sized down somewhat like Ganondorf from Twilight Princess, but it wouldn't look like a drastic change.

View attachment 16939

Actually, in the cut scene before the fight he's bigger and somehow when you're fighting against him he's smaller.

 

[majora_787]

@ majora_787 But Ganondorf is a human (or Gerudo if you want to techincal), and generally, as I pointed out before, humans (or at least, the ones that look most human) generally have the same height, save for Ganon as he is a bit taller than the rest, as he is a bit of a big boi. So I think he can guess that humans (barring Little Mac and Rosalina) have a general range of height they must be within, should they not?

You have to pick a side here. Either canon matters or it doesn't. You can't shove canon under the rug because Ganondorf is human in shape. He is MORE than "a bit taller" than the rest. Link goes up to his waist, and Link is some five foot and some in Twilight Princess.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Sorry, but this is a fallacy (False Analogy). You can't compare Andross with Ridley. You have to elaborate why you think they are similar.

And your point is?
Here you're assuming that because he's a stage hazard he will be sized as a stage hazard, that could be true, but we still don't know if Ridley is playable or a stage hazard.

I'm sorry, my involvement in the thread started with that post. Keep reading through the threads and you'll find some good points from both sides of the argument.

As for his role in the game being ambiguous...precisely, which is why we are debating/speculating.

 

[Angelglory]

Still talking about size? A'ight, cool, I just finished this.

It's rough, but these are approximately the characters' sizes in the (Wii U) demo. Even though it's relatively slight, some characters have seemed to change sizes from the previous game. Bowser may've actually gotten a little shorter since Brawl.

 

[majora_787]

We're not speculating on his role in the game by you trying to convince people with some misguided statements that size actually matters for Ridley and literally nobody else. The fact of the matter is Ridley HAS been resized so the entire conversation is unnecessary to have.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

Is this the consensual size (taking up the entire center) everyone has declared for his Smash Bros appearance?

No, it is bigger than what we think is fitting for Ridley.

And compress your previous posts like i said to make it easier for everyone to understand you.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

Still talking about size? A'ight, cool, I just finished this.

It's rough, but these are approximately the characters' sizes in the (Wii U) demo. Even though it's relatively slight, some characters have seemed to change sizes from the previous game. Bowser may've actually gotten a little shorter since Brawl.

See Samus, Marth, Zelda, Wii Fit Trainer, Link, Zero Suit Samus, Pit...all humans...all in a row baby!

You have to pick a side here. Either canon matters or it doesn't. You can't shove canon under the rug because Ganondorf is human in shape. He is MORE than "a bit taller" than the rest. Link goes up to his waist, and Link is some five foot and some in Twilight Princess.

Canon matters to a certain degree. You can't say that canon things such as backstory, and powers, and abilities, and personalities don't play a factor in anything at all, ever. This isn't black or white/all or nothing.

 

[majora_787]

See Samus, Marth, Zelda, Wii Fit Trainer, Link, Zero Suit Samus, Pit...all in a row baby!



Canon matters to a certain. You can't say that canon things such as backstory, and powers, and abilities, and personalities don't play a factor in anything at all, ever. This isn't black or white/all or nothing.

But you can't say it "literally applies 100% to one character" and "does not apply at all" to another. That's not a gray area, that is picking black and white and keeping them separate.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I'm not saying anything applies 100% does or 100% doesn't apply. "Canon doesn't matter" (a pretty definitive statement) doesn't keep the sizes being the way they are. Ridley being "too big" doesn't mean he can't be small, it's just that he wouldn't look good at all in my point of view and doesn't fit his character, and doesn't really fit being playable in Smash Bros for reasons aforementioned in prior posts.

 

[BaganSmashBros]

So, @ Jerry Applesauce , Ganondorf was a boss bigger than any human-like character in Nintendo`s franchises (Hades, Medusa, etc, don`t count) and then becomes a little bit taller than Link and playable. But Ridley was a boss as big as Bowser is (usually) and can`t be resized to be playable. Why one CAN be and other one CAN`T be? They had same fate before SSB, but Ridley is a different thing, oh yeah. Does Ridley has something that Ganondorf doesn`t that prevents him from being resized? No. He isn`t human-like? BS, since Bowser isn`t either, but gets resized not only in SSB.
Being big is Kraid`s trait. It never was a part of Ridley. Being a sadistic skinny purple space dragon with superiority complex that can shoot fireballs and is personally tied with Samus is what makes him.

 

[ppbto]

I'm sorry, my involvement in the thread started with that post. Keep reading through the threads and you'll find some good points from both sides of the argument.

As for his role in the game being ambiguous...precisely, which is why we are debating/speculating.

I will not continuing reading through the thread. If you are sure on your stance you should be able to put your main argument in a short sentence.

Canon matters to a certain degree. You can't say that canon things such as backstory, and powers, and abilities, and personalities don't play a factor in anything at all, ever. This isn't black or white/all or nothing.

Now, with this statement you have to provide a compiled argument on why Ridley, somehow has to respect the canon when others characters can ignore it to certain extend.

I'm not saying anything applies 100% does or 100% doesn't apply. "Canon doesn't matter" (a pretty definitive statement) doesn't keep the sizes being the way they are. Ridley being "too big" doesn't mean he can't be small, it's just that he wouldn't look good at all in my point of view and doesn't fit his character, and doesn't really fit being playable in Smash Bros for reasons aforementioned in prior posts.

"Wouldn't look good" is a subjective matter, it can't be used as an argument.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I'm not saying anything applies 100% does or 100% doesn't apply. "Canon doesn't matter" (a pretty definitive statement) doesn't keep the sizes being the way they are. Ridley being "too big" doesn't mean he can't be small, it's just that he wouldn't look good at all in my point of view and doesn't fit his character, and doesn't really fit being playable in Smash Bros for reasons aforementioned in prior posts.

Other M Concept Art Ridley is much more muscular and would look perfectly fine scaled down in size.

 

[Jerry Applesauce]

I will not continuing reading through the thread. If you are sure on your stance you should be able to put your main argument in a short sentence.


Now, with this statement you have to provide a compiled argument on why Ridley, somehow has to respect the canon when others characters can ignore it to certain extend.


"Wouldn't look good" is a subjective matter, it can't be used as an argument.

"Lemme ask you somethin'. Does this look right to you?" - hotdog guy from the film Blades of Glory

Simply scaling him down would not look good. They'd have to redo his proportions drastically.

It would be more "respectable" to the canon, in my view, for him to be a boss rather than playable. He would not look good merely scaled down. He is too big. He has always been a nonhuman boss, unlike the other big bois. He is always coming back from the dead. Samus lacks control over when or how he appears. Many reasons that I have to resort to without saying that I simply intuitively think he would not work well as a playable character.

Other M Concept Art Ridley is much more muscular and would look perfectly fine scaled down in size.

So...concept art. Concept. Short intro in cutscene in SSBM (someone else said it, not you). Those aren't from the games, and an intro cutscene with a character that only appears as a trophy elsewhere in the game. That doesn't really help much.

 

[Sehnsucht]

1 - Scale Ridley down to a reasonable size relative to the rest of the roster;

2 - Ensure that his proportions aren't out of whack (model, hitboxes, etc.);

3 - Devise for him a suitable moveset;

4 - ???

5 - SUCCESS!

 

[BaganSmashBros]

"Lemme ask you somethin'. Does this look right to you?"

So...concept art. Concept. Short intro in cutscene in SSBM. Those aren't from the games. That doesn't really help much.

If it would be a little bit bigger (melee model used). And don`t even try to use SSBB hacks as examples of how he wouldn`t look right because Ridley`s model is messed up in this mods because of Charizard`s rig and bigger version is Charizard`s model edited to look like Ridley`s.

Concept art...hm...who cares about it when we aleady had him in Other M and he would look nice scaled down. Even better than SM would. And SSBM intro scene counts if Brawl boss battle counts because it was in previous SSB game, so, why count one appearence and ignore other one? They could just leave him as big as he was in Super Metroid. But they didn`t.
There is Other M model in case you don`t know how it looks like:

It is modified a bit (longer legs, different beak). I did not wanted to resize him in this image. It wasn`t even "Ridley in Sm4sh" image. It was a scene based on his last battle from Super Metroid. Angelglory had a better size i guess, but this one still looks big compared to Samus while not being 2x bigger than Samus.