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Important The Ridley for SSB4 Thread - End of an Era

Sehnsucht

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I agree that they can't just make him small and call it a day. If he is in the game, they'll have to make a special Ridley made specifically for the game.
That's what it's all about.

We can all agree that, in the Metroid series, Ridley is large, and part of his menace is indeed rooted in how he dwarfs Samus.

Yet it is inevitable that, if Ridley is to be playable in a Smash environment, he has to be downsized.

In such a case, the only thing left to do is to trust that the development team will be able to adapt the character of Ridley with a visual design and gameplay style that the majority find appealing, satisfactory, fun, etc. -- both as a Smash fighter and as a Metroid representative.

Even in the hands of Sora-Bamco-Sakurai, Playable Ridley could turn out subpar, or underwhelming, or broken, or so on. However, given all I've seen about Smash 4, and how they've been handling it design-wise***, I'm optimistic that a team of professional developers could make Ridley work in the hands of the player.

***By this, I mean mostly in terms of visual design, diversity in playstyles, the wide range of content, etc. Many concerns about actual gameplay mechanics and balance had been raised in wake of E3, the Smash Invitational, and the Best Buy demos. While I do have concerns myself on this issue, I'm also reserving judgement until the final product is released.
 
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darksamus77

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Example of Bowser's bigness w/o Kamek's aid:
-Mario Galaxy
-Mario Galaxy 2
-Mario Sunshine
-The first time you fight him before he becomes massive he's pretty big.
-Oh, how about Bowser's Inside Story in the Giant Bowser Battles?
-Hey, Super Mario 64. Kamek didn't even exist then.

Also, no one seems to remember that ,cannonically, Bowser actually has dark magic abilities of his own. It's always 'Kamek blah blah blah.' Maybe Bowser buffs himself whenever he damn well pleases?
Don't forget Paper Mario and its sequel, TTYD. Bowser's large and in charge in both games, no Kamek required.
 

Thermithral

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I have a question about Ridleys canon, that perhaps one of you can answer. How is he in Super Metroid?
If I recall, Super Metroid happens after Prime 3, where Omega Ridley is given as permanent a death as Nintendo would probably allow, yet afterward he shows up in his pure biological form. Is that Ridley a clone? Or did he somehow survive Prime 3 and I missed something obvious?
 

SchAlternate

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I have a question about Ridleys canon, that perhaps one of you can answer. How is he in Super Metroid?
If I recall, Super Metroid happens after Prime 3, where Omega Ridley is given as permanent a death as Nintendo would probably allow, yet afterward he shows up in his pure biological form. Is that Ridley a clone? Or did he somehow survive Prime 3 and I missed something obvious?
Pirate Magic, duh.
 

Nat Perry

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Except that Ridley's size has changed drastically in all of the games he has been in.
Drastically, as in just a little bit yet still big enough to be considered pretty damn big. You can't say drastically, that applies to Bowser, and he has no canon size. There are different Ridleys with different sizes, obviously the NES's size was adapted for Samus' short firing range. In the other games he is pretty freaking huge, 2-D and 3-D games alike. It's a consistent part of him that isn't primary but still important enough, no?
 

Nat Perry

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That's what it's all about.

We can all agree that, in the Metroid series, Ridley is large, and part of his menace is indeed rooted in how he dwarfs Samus.

Yet it is inevitable that, if Ridley is to be playable in a Smash environment, he has to be downsized.

In such a case, the only thing left to do is to trust that the development team will be able to adapt the character of Ridley with a visual design and gameplay style that the majority find appealing, satisfactory, fun, etc. -- both as a Smash fighter and as a Metroid representative.

Even in the hands of Sora-Bamco-Sakurai, Playable Ridley could turn out subpar, or underwhelming, or broken, or so on. However, given all I've seen about Smash 4, and how they've been handling it design-wise***, I'm optimistic that a team of professional developers could make Ridley work in the hands of the player.

***By this, I mean mostly in terms of visual design, diversity in playstyles, the wide range of content, etc. Many concerns about actual gameplay mechanics and balance had been raised in wake of E3, the Smash Invitational, and the Best Buy demos. While I do have concerns myself on this issue, I'm also reserving judgement until the final product is released.
It's really this. Just this. Even so, it don't look so hot for Ridley, despite how cool he could potenitally be if he were to be properly made for Smash.
 

Oracle_Summon

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Go on, show everyone the NES sprite, then explain to us why they made Ridley bigger.
To be more "threatening" in the Metroid Prime games. But seriously, Ridley's size changes drastically. Sizes are not set things when it comes to Smash. Happens for everyone else, it will happen for Ridley.
 

Nat Perry

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@ TitanTeaTime TitanTeaTime Look up Bowser's sizes for Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario RPG, Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, the Mario Parties, and the Mario Sports games, and tell me that his size fluctuating ain't a thang.
 

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That's what it's all about.

We can all agree that, in the Metroid series, Ridley is large, and part of his menace is indeed rooted in how he dwarfs Samus.

Yet it is inevitable that, if Ridley is to be playable in a Smash environment, he has to be downsized.

In such a case, the only thing left to do is to trust that the development team will be able to adapt the character of Ridley with a visual design and gameplay style that the majority find appealing, satisfactory, fun, etc. -- both as a Smash fighter and as a Metroid representative.

Even in the hands of Sora-Bamco-Sakurai, Playable Ridley could turn out subpar, or underwhelming, or broken, or so on. However, given all I've seen about Smash 4, and how they've been handling it design-wise***, I'm optimistic that a team of professional developers could make Ridley work in the hands of the player.

***By this, I mean mostly in terms of visual design, diversity in playstyles, the wide range of content, etc. Many concerns about actual gameplay mechanics and balance had been raised in wake of E3, the Smash Invitational, and the Best Buy demos. While I do have concerns myself on this issue, I'm also reserving judgement until the final product is released.
Robin restored all my hype and hope for the Roster. I know Sakurai will make Ridley look good. Ridley is too small to be a boss, we already know this.
 

darksamus77

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It's really this. Just this. Even so, it don't look so hot for Ridley, despite how cool he could potenitally be if he were to be properly made for Smash.
I'm not getting my hopes up on his chances but all of these newcomers look incredible. If Ridley's in, I'm happy, even if he's not the dream go-to favorite for everyone. I'd be a very happy camper if he's in, regardless of how he plays. Slow Bossley would be a bigger insult to his character than a subpar playable character.
 

TitanTeaTime

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@ TitanTeaTime TitanTeaTime Look up Bowser's sizes for Super Mario World, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Super Mario Galaxy, Super Mario RPG, Mario & Luigi, Paper Mario, the Mario Parties, and the Mario Sports games, and tell me that his size fluctuating ain't a thang.
I know about that.
I was trying to make a point. You know, that thing about Smash not being canon even if Bowser's size never was in the first place?
Or Ridley's size either, for that matter
 
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yosharioIII

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Bowser has always been inconsistent with his sizes, ranging from really small to normal sized to ginormous, obviously he has no "canon size."

Ridley has always varied in size, but has also always been large. Save for his NES Metroid appearance which was that way probably due to Samus' firing range, and the noncanon Melee intro, he's always been gargantuan, and even he's not among the biggest bosses in the Metroid series.

Yeah, in case you didn't know some people act like real d***s around here, it seems that they're pretty attached to this kind of thing on an emotional level. They've had to "deal with this since the Brawl days" as if that's a good excuse.

It's opinions, people get worked up about it and start calling names and throwing accusations and writing people off, then get mad when someone disagrees with them and don't realize how they're acting.

It's kinda funny, actually. Sometimes. Many times it's just sad.
Drastically, as in just a little bit yet still big enough to be considered pretty damn big. You can't say drastically, that applies to Bowser, and he has no canon size. There are different Ridleys with different sizes, obviously the NES's size was adapted for Samus' short firing range. In the other games he is pretty freaking huge, 2-D and 3-D games alike. It's a consistent part of him that isn't primary but still important enough, no?
I honestly don't believe Ridley's size, or Bowser's for that matter, are of such importance to their character. So long as they look bigger than Samus/Mario, I'm good with it. This size comparisons I've seen of Ridley are "big enough" to satisfy my needs. He doesn't need to be 20 ft tall to be Ridley. And I know that his size definitely doesn't fluctuate as MUCH as Bowser, but I think it's just to point out that in fiction (especially non-canon fiction) size doesn't really matter.

And yes sir, I apologize for any rudeness or animosity from any Ridley supporter towards you, or anyone for that matter. I don't think anyone's opinion gives them a right to berate some one else's. I only ask that you not return fire out of spite, treat others the way you wish to be treated, is something I wish all people could abide by, especially in the case of an argument.

Many of us are at least some degree of passionate to have one of our favorite characters get into such an iconic and deserved role. Unfortunately some people get carried away in that passion, and I am sorry about that. I never find it funny when that happens.
 

Oracle_Summon

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I honestly don't believe Ridley's size, or Bowser's for that matter, are of such importance to their character. So long as they look bigger than Samus/Mario, I'm good with it. This size comparisons I've seen of Ridley are "big enough" to satisfy my needs. He doesn't need to be 20 ft tall to be Ridley. And I know that his size definitely doesn't fluctuate as MUCH as Bowser, but I think it's just to point out that in fiction (especially non-canon fiction) size doesn't really matter.

And yes sir, I apologize for any rudeness or animosity from any Ridley supporter towards you, or anyone for that matter. I don't think anyone's opinion gives them a right to berate some one else's. I only ask that you not return fire out of spite, treat others the way you wish to be treated, is something I wish all people could abide by, especially in the case of an argument.

Many of us are at least some degree of passionate to have one of our favorite characters get into such an iconic and deserved role. Unfortunately some people get carried away in that passion, and I am sorry about that. I never find it funny when that happens.
I always thought that if Ridley is not Ruthless in SSB4 then it is not Ridley.
 

Nat Perry

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You know, that thing about Smash not being canon even if Bowser's size never was in the first place? Or Ridley's size either, for that matter

Non canon doesn't mean entirely disregarding things, unless that's the point of the non canon thing, but Smash does not totally disregard everything. That's where the "non canon" argument falls short. Smash is a crazy game but to a degree it stays true to things to varying degrees. It can sway on different ends of the faithful/unfaithful or canon/noncanon sides, and it all depends. In my opinion, I think Ridley calls for a more faithful representation in the game not as a playable character because of his size. As a playable character, however, they could be free to make a new model of him if it looks right. One thing that cannot happen is him just being small. That absolutely cannot happen.
 
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Oracle_Summon

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Non canon doesn't mean entirely disregarding things, unless that's the point of the non canon thing, but Smash does not totally disregard everything. That's where the "non canon" argument falls short. Smash is a crazy game but to a degree it stays true to things to varying degrees.
But that argument mainly depends on what people say is considered canon and should be mentioned.

Lucina's Eye Mark is an example of Canon in Smash Brothers; however, :4olimar:'s size is not.

I think Smash Brothers cares about Canon things, but Size is not one of them.
 
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LarsINTJ

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Truth is binary, not a continuum.
Non canon doesn't mean entirely disregarding things, unless that's the point of the non canon thing, but Smash does not totally disregard everything. That's where the "non canon" argument falls short. Smash is a crazy game but to a degree it stays true to things to varying degrees.
What makes something canon in the first place? The will of the original author? Fans seem to disregard 'non-canon' material even if it is endorsed by their original author.

It is a strange thing.
 

Nat Perry

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@ Oracle_Summon Oracle_Summon , it matters to a degree, obviously not everything in the game is entirely canon or noncanon. Everything sways towards one ends or the other. Size, importance, popularity, logic/reasoning, etc. all play a role in where it swings, and it varies for everything in the game.

It is indeed a strange thing, and something very debatable. No wonder this thread is this big.
 
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LarsINTJ

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Truth is binary, not a continuum.
It is indeed a strange thing, and something very debatable. No wonder this thread is this big.
I have come to the conclusion that 'canon' vs. 'non-canon' is simply an excuse which fans use to justify their personal preferences where the terms only apply when it is most convenient.

They are also properly interpreted as 'real' vs. 'fake'.

What's real or fake in fiction? I think we're back to where we started...
I guess a consistent narrative/plot helps.
 
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yosharioIII

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But that argument mainly depends on what people say is considered canon and should be mentioned.

Lucina's Eye Mark is an example of Canon in Smash Brothers; however, :4olimar:'s size is not.

I think Smash Brothers cares about Canon things, but Size is not one of them.
Yeah this. "Canon" in Smash matters for the sake of... reference... allusion. Smash is a game to celebrate Nintendo characters. Of course nods and references to the games is important, you gotta be able to recognize them. I think RIdley is easily recognizable as Ridley at our tested size, he doesn't need to be so huge. He's an important Nintendo character that should be celebrated the same way Bowser and Ganondorf are.
 

Oracle_Summon

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@ Oracle_Summon Oracle_Summon , it matters to a degree, obviously not everything in the game is entirely canon or noncanon. Everything sways towards one ends or the other. Size, importance, popularity, logic/reasoning, etc. all play a role in where it swings, and it varies for everything in the game.

It is indeed a strange thing, and something very debatable. No wonder this thread is this big.
It only makes sense for Samus to be larger than Little Mac, because she is in canon when comparing their heights. Ridley's is taller than Samus after the original and continues to have his size changed.

Olimar is where the size is disregarded.

Mario and Bowser used to be the same size since the NES games, nowadays? Not so much.

Response to bold: That is because the characters sizes have moved all over the place in their own games. This makes it really hard for people to determine whether size can truly be taken seriously when it comes to Smash Representatives.
 

Nat Perry

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I have come to the conclusion that 'canon' vs. 'non-canon' is simply an excuse that fans use to justify their personal preferences where the terms only apply when it is most convenient.

They are also properly interpreted as 'real' vs. 'fake'.
Yeah, many times people's reasoning doesn't exactly support what they're trying to say. Many times it's "I want this character to be in because I really want him/her/it in" and they can give reasons and facts, and that's cool. Sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes it doesn't. For me, I knew that Little Mac, Mega Man, Palutena, Little Mac, and Robin would be great for this game. I can try to give reasons or talk about "deservedness" or relevancy or uniqueness and such, but really, they felt like fitting newcomers for this game, for me at least.

Like, I can try to give an argument on why a certain character wouldn't fit Smash. But at least for me, it comes down to it not feeling right, or me really not wanting him or her in. And I think that's how it is for a lot of people. Adding logical explanation to a right feeling or intuitive thought sometimes kinda sh**ts on it.
 
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Oracle_Summon

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Yeah, many times people's reasoning doesn't exactly support what they're trying to say. Many times it's "I want this character to be in because I really want him/her/it in" and they can give reasons and facts, and that's cool. Sometimes it makes sense, and sometimes it doesn't. For me, I knew that Little Mac, Mega Man, Palutena, Little Mac, and Robin would be great for this game. I can try to give reasons or talk about "deservedness" or relevancy or uniqueness and such, but really, they felt like fitting newcomers for this game, for me at least.

Like, I can try to give an argument on why a certain character wouldn't fit Smash. But at least for me, it comes down to it not feeling right, or me really not wanting him or her in. And I think that's how it is for a lot of people. Adding logical explanation to a right feeling or intuitive thought kinda sh**ts on it.
Well.....should Ridley's moveset focus more on his Claws, Mouth, Tail, Wings, or all of them mixed together?

Got to get something moving in the Ridley thread.
 

yosharioIII

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Well.....should Ridley's moveset focus more on his Claws, Mouth, Tail, Wings, or all of them mixed together?

Got to get something moving in the Ridley thread.
I'd say all! But really, the way he uses his tail could be interesting, Ridley never fights WITH his wings so I wouldn't suggest it. So I'd say Other:M reminiscent claw swipes and maybe a few bites.
 

SvartWolf

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Well.....should Ridley's moveset focus more on his Claws, Mouth, Tail, Wings, or all of them mixed together?

Got to get something moving in the Ridley thread.
dunno, for me would be
Tail for power (and range) smashes and some aerials
claws for speed , probably the jabs and maybe some tilts
Mouth and wing for techincal stuff (specials, oddbals aerials and tilts)

Edit: i forgot to say that tail should have a little more importance than the rest though... probably specially on aerials.
 
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Sehnsucht

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What makes something canon in the first place? The will of the original author? Fans seem to disregard 'non-canon' material even if it is endorsed by their original author.

It is a strange thing.
Canon is indeed determined by authorial fiat (generally, anyway). A fiction's canon comprises of all works or properties that the creator (or those who hold the fiction's copyrights) deems to be part of a definitive continuity, or whole. This continuity can be defined as a shared timeline, a shared setting, a shared universe, etc. in which the work exists, or works coexist. Spin-offs are not canon, as they by definition diverge from the mainline continuity -- unless the creator(s) state(s) that these spin-offs do exist within the mainline continuity.

Since the creators are the ones who create the fiction, they can define (or market) a work however they choose, since they're the ones who know where the work(s) fit in their continuity. They determine how works relate to one another, and how fans are to treat these materials -- and if a given fraction of the audience doesn't approve, then tough, because Word of God trumps all.

For instance, George Lucas has the main canon of Star Wars (i.e. the film franchise), and he has the Expanded Universe -- books, games, and other Star Wars properties which, while Lucas doesn't work on them personally, are sanctioned by him (and are canon, as they exist in the same continuity as the film franchise). Star Wars fanfiction, on the other hand, would be non-canon, as these works aren't the direct creation of, nor are sanctioned by, Lucas himself. And as much as some segments of the fanbase dislike the Prequel Trilogy, and consider them "non-canon", they are canon by official authorial decree.

Because Smash is a crossover game, its contents are drawn from multiple canons (from the respective games and series of origin). Smash itself has no "canon" in itself, since it has no established shared continuity, especially between titles***.

As has been the case in the past three games, Smash takes inspiration from the canons of the games it references. It respects elements of external canons inasmuch as these elements don't conflict with Smash as a fighting-genre game. So while Olimar in Pikmin canon is an inch tall, he can't retain that size in a Smash environment. So, they upsize him considerably. Likewise, Captain Falcon originated in racing series, and so it isn't canon to F-Zero that he has fire-based attacks; they added those attacks to make Falcon viable as a Smash fighter.

So far as Ridley is concerned, if they want him in, then they'll lift from, and respect Metroid canon as much as they can without interfering with Smash as a game. So if Ridley's size, while canon in Metroid, is an impediment to his playable inclusion, then they'll disregard Metroid canon for the sake of his inclusion. A playable Ridley would be smaller than Metroid Ridley (on average), and so Smash Ridley would not be a "canon" Metroid Ridley. But then again, the Smash series is not canon to any of its constituent game series to begin with.

***The original conceit of Smash was that these fighters were all trophies brought to life. This is a recurring motif in all three previous titles. And the Subspace Emissary campaign had its own storyline and universe, so it can have its own "canon" (i.e. the canon of the SSE). So Smash does nominally have a canon, but its very (very) loosely defined (and hardly touched upon outside of story modes), so it's only important at a surface level.
 
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Maxilian

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What do you mean, try again? You guys think Ridley as a playable character would be cool and I think it would be stupid, simple as that.

By the way, why don't you just throw in the original Ridley sprite while you're at it. Why didn't they keep Ridley at his original size, huh? Or why did they make Kraid absolutely massive despite his NES appearance?
Well... doesn't that give points to Ridley? you already implied in your comment that size have been changed with other characters (make them bigger or smaller) so... why wouldn't that work for Ridley? also i'm not saying that you have to like him or think he's comming as a playable character, i'm just saying that the comment "RIDLEY IS TOO BIG" doesn't apply
 

Nat Perry

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There's a reason that Ridley/Kraid were that small. As others have pointed out Samus had a very limited Arm Cannon range in the original NES game. He was meant to be big. Once again, size matters to arguable degrees. It may not be a defining characteristic, but it is a characteristic nonetheless.

If he's playable, he'll be an original model, I can guarantee it. He'd have to be bigger than Samus, or be the biggest character in the game, no doubt about that either.
 

LarsINTJ

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Truth is binary, not a continuum.
Well... doesn't that give points to Ridley? you already implied in your comment that size have been changed with other characters (make them bigger or smaller) so... why wouldn't that work for Ridley? also i'm not saying that you have to like him or think he's comming as a playable character, i'm just saying that the comment "RIDLEY IS TOO BIG" doesn't apply
Specific sizes are only an aesthetic concern of mine, you guys need to address gameplay issues before you start with move-set conception and the like.

How will Ridley play? How fast? How strong will his attacks be? How large is his range? Knock-back resistance? Recovery options?

Compare all of this against other characters, not just size. If Ridley still turns out to be OP boss-tier, then that's probably the role he fits best.
 
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SvartWolf

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uhm... does we really need to keep getting back to the too big argument? is singlehanded the most ******** and proven wrong argument in this whole thread (no small feat considering the thread size) and people using either don't give **** t think about it for more than 3 seconds, trolls, or well quite dull.
 

TheZombiePig

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Something to note about Bowser's size in most cases is that he's very large and intimidating in the main games, but when given a playable role, he is shrunken down to fit the role. The same has been done to Petey Piranha and King K. Rool. Even Ganondorf in Brawl isn't as tall as he was in Twilight Princess. Just like Bowser in Smash, Ridley can be resized, yet still look big and menacing.
 

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I'm all for another Metroid rep, but would Ridley work very well? Considering his size, (Inb4 people dismiss this with a stupid TOO BIG joke.) wouldn't it look off when he's nearly always shown to be atleast twice as big as Samus? (Disregarding the retconned NES game.) The large wingspan and his lanky structure wouldn't work very well downsized.
 
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