The PSI Powered Youth: Game Play General

[Simna ibn Sind]

ATTN EVERYONE: Don't run and upB-slide off the stage using slow PK Thunder custom. You will die.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Oh um....someone I think said earlier that you cant roll out of psi magnet on absorb like you could in Brawl, but....you can.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

BUG REPORT: Rising PK Flash will be INVISIBLE to some opponents in online matches.

 

[FuPoo]

dair is weird and i think they changed how long it lasts or something, dunno. his little twirl animation is nice but it confuses me sometimes lol

i cant seem to constantly hit people with bair like i would in brawl or melee

feels like his fair is shorter????

 

[joniho]

In the NA build during a Multi-Man Smash, I heard the crowd chant Reflet (Robin's JP name).

 

[Yink]

I seriously don't like the change to dair. It feels so awkward and clunky. The sparkles are a nice touch I guess, but I feel like actually landing a fast dair is just not possible now. It's probably because I suck though and can't do it.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I just dont like the cooldown on dair. By the way has anyone run into any specials in online play that are invisible?

EDIT: PK Thunder is still amazing, but I make mistakes with it so often; I'm not all that skilled with a circlepad.

 

[FuPoo]

i cant do constant nairs with the 3DS control scheme

Spoiler

my hands are too fat ;___;

 

[Tikao]

ok, i just had a (possibly) awesome idea regarding Ness

so there is this pk-fire omega, which lasts longer deals TONS of damage is realy huge, but won't hit them for it's entire duration and has more endlag

the endlag issue can be resolved by using it in the air since the landing lag there is the same (meaning less endlag after it)
well it's not worth it if enemies get out of it

--------> so one of Ness' custom down-b actually sucks them in and deals damage around him if you release it, so if you hit someone with pk-fire omega, can you just stay close to them and hold down-b (the custom one that sucks you in) to keep them in the pk-fire omega pillar, so it deals way more damage?

also, does the same down-b actually has a wind hitbox the entire time you hold it or just when you start it?
if it has this windhitbox only at the start, then you might be able to just stand near the fire pillar and spam it, without hitting them (since the damage hitbox at the end is small and you won't suck them through the pillar)
so you would need to stand close enough for the wind hitbox, but not close enough for the damage hitbox

-----> if the wind hitbox is just at the start of this down-b and not while you are holding it, can you spam the same down-b near them (near enough for the wind hitbox, not near enough for the damage hitbox) to hold them in the pk-fire omega pillar and deal way more damage?


as i don't got a 3ds, could somebody test that? (the second one only if there is no windhitbox while holding it)
would be nice if that's possible or just makes it harder to sdi out of it

 

[Yink]

I just dont like the cooldown on dair. By the way has anyone run into any specials in online play that are invisible?

EDIT: PK Thunder is still amazing, but I make mistakes with it so often; I'm not all that skilled with a circlepad.

I don't think anyone's going to be upset with you for circle pad problems, heh. I'm glad you're playing Ness!

 

[yoshi8984]

Hm, something that came to mind:

So I saw a video of my friend playing Fox, and he managed to get an F-Tilt lock (yes Fox can F-Tilt Lock, even in Brawl if y'all didn't know ). However, on his 4th F-Tilt, the opponent got right back up and could counterattack. So you can only Jab Reset up to 3 times. Here's the video of my friend's F-Tilt Lock with Fox if you guys are curious (1:13).

So, I was thinking, if Fox's F-Tilt can still Jab Reset, could Ness' Jab still do the same in this game, and if so, could it still be followed up into a F-Smash or something? o.o

 

[Eagleye893]

Jab locks still work for ness, I tested that out. Only 3 jabs though, like everyone else.

Grounded PK Fire has less lag, but aerial is terrible.

PKT has decently fast cooldown when grounded, but I'm not confident about its juggle potential.

BAir is better at killing by a tiny bit from brawl.

I haven't been able to PK Jump with the 3DS, but that might be because i'm not used to the controller yet.

PSI magnet doesn't stall, but it has a rising property similar to marth's sideB; if you use it while rising from a jump, you'll go slightly higher.

I don't like the changes to USmash or DSmash. Maybe I'll find a different use for them, but the charging hit was why I used it before.

i'm not seeing a sourspot timing for NAir, and i'm noticing its hitbox ends a lot quicker. That said, still the same for its sweetspot.

Dair has a much thinner hitbox that lasts for a lot less. That said, it doesn't pop people up who are on the ground. This is interesting and WOULD lead to tech-chase follow ups if we still could auto-cancel it post-hitbox, but i'm not getting it. Onstage it seems useless.

While we got some nerfs, its not nearly as bad as falco's laser.

EDIT:

Here's things that I'm getting by playing the wifi "for glory":
--> Ness has difficulty against anyone with long-ranged attacks. This isn't really new.
--> FAir is really bad to land with UNLESS you time for the last hit. look for UAir/NAir or just don't put out an aerial.
--> Not being able to PSI-mag on my way down to halt momentum is screwing with my brain.
--> PK Jump DOES exist, I'm just not consistent with it yet.
--> ZSS is so heavily changed. Doesn't feel like a good matchup whatsoever, but that might be from wifi lag.
--> I've had the connection cut out on me 3 times during a PKT2 attempt. Died each time.
--> The way the game stores the last color costume is convenient, but from playing past smash games, it's difficult to get used to.
--> THERE IS a sourspot nair, it's just harder to hit because the NAir doesn't linger as much as in previous games
--> utilt has a lot of upward range and priority. You will at the very least trade with most things coming from above you.
--> USmash's forward range and swing speed is dreadful. B/c the yoyo doesn't stick out when you slide across the ground, it doesn't carry forward and always has an arc close to your body
--> I miss my C-Stick :'(
--> UAir has more kill potential than in brawl xD
--> the ability to FTilt or pivot Fsmash from a decent distance is good.
--> DTilt has about the same rate of tripping as brawl. Wifi makes it hard to react on trip
--> Just experienced a crazy glitch where the lag out caused all our controls to affect nothing going on in the game. then An error code popped up.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

ok, i just had a (possibly) awesome idea regarding Ness

so there is this pk-fire omega, which lasts longer deals TONS of damage is realy huge, but won't hit them for it's entire duration and has more endlag

the endlag issue can be resolved by using it in the air since the landing lag there is the same (meaning less endlag after it)
well it's not worth it if enemies get out of it

--------> so one of Ness' custom down-b actually sucks them in and deals damage around him if you release it, so if you hit someone with pk-fire omega, can you just stay close to them and hold down-b (the custom one that sucks you in) to keep them in the pk-fire omega pillar, so it deals way more damage?

also, does the same down-b actually has a wind hitbox the entire time you hold it or just when you start it?
if it has this windhitbox only at the start, then you might be able to just stand near the fire pillar and spam it, without hitting them (since the damage hitbox at the end is small and you won't suck them through the pillar)
so you would need to stand close enough for the wind hitbox, but not close enough for the damage hitbox

-----> if the wind hitbox is just at the start of this down-b and not while you are holding it, can you spam the same down-b near them (near enough for the wind hitbox, not near enough for the damage hitbox) to hold them in the pk-fire omega pillar and deal way more damage?


as i don't got a 3ds, could somebody test that? (the second one only if there is no windhitbox while holding it)
would be nice if that's possible or just makes it harder to sdi out of it

This was actually one of my first thought when I heard about Ness's customs. Fooling with the training mode a bit, it seems that it'll be match-up dependent (Lighter characters won't have to deal with this at all), but it can work in theory. Of course, these are mere computer controlled characters, meaning I have no clue how quick one can DI out of PK Fire Omega. I'm unsure of the practicality until I can try it on a human opponent though (is the damage worth losing a free grab, especially at higher percents?).

For your second question, as long as you hold the button the opponent will be dragged towards Ness if they're in range. In fact they even start to push Ness across the stage! A fun little custom indeed.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Can we take a moment and look at the reflecting properties of Ness' fsmash?

 

[Wiisnake]

Can we take a moment and look at the reflecting properties of Ness' fsmash?

Those properties are amazing vs Villager, feels easier to do overall.
Got any tips for the Sheik and Lucina match ups? Sheik is just annoying and Lucina was the first character I straight up was out played by.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Watch your shielding habits vs. Lucina.

 

[thesage]

The major problem with Ness is that he has to use his custom moves in certain matchups in order for him to be a good character.

 

[joniho]

The major problem with Ness is that he has to use his custom moves in certain matchups in order for him to be a good character.

How so?

 

[Eagleye893]

I will agree with you that some of his custom moves are strictly better than Ness' standard moves (PSI Magnet for sure and potentially PK Flash). I agree that the Lucas-style PK Fire might be great to use for some people. I don't think they're so vastly different or better that it's a "must."

I haven't really been in a situation to use the bat to reflect anything, but that may be because I'm unfamiliar with the changes, the wifi, or something else.

I'm considering changing my controls from default so that tap-jump is off, but I feel like it may mess with my brain when I transition back to melee/PM. Should I put Tap-Jump off for the 3DS version or leave it the same? I'm finding it much more obnoxious to up-air with the lack of a c-stick.

EDIT: Here's a list of the things I would like to know the most in terms of technical stuff:

1.) the hitbox and lag-time for PK Flash. I feel like it's a decently more effective option against opponents who are above you because of how Ness' UTilt and UAir have changed alongside the new airdodge.
2.) the landing lag of aerials. DAir is big on ending and auto-canceled before the hit comes out, BAir is about the same as brawl, but NAir FAir and UAir are all weird.
3.) how easy is it to not get trapped by the pillar? either breakout or first-hit DI.
4.) starting and ending hitboxes of USmash/DSmash. I'm finding the DSmash with its multiple hits gets DI'd or SDI'd easily.

As far as the bat, I found it pretty easy to reflect things on reaction, even in wifi lag. It has a bit of a lingering reflect box and works for nearly the whole length of the bat (reflected a water shuriken on the absolute edge slightly after mid-swing)

EDIT2: Small and probably useless finding:

Ness' Normal PKT, if you footstool & PKT on mostly any character, you can whip it back around, GO THROUGH the other character without them taking the bolt, and PKT2 out. I have some terribad video if anyone wants to see it. Tall characters you barely need to adjust the arc in order to hit yourself. Basically this:

--Grounded Footstool > insta-PKT. Your Bolt goes through them and deals damage/knockback.
--Twirl around toward yourself. Bolt doesn't hit them, but can still go through them because of the recent hit.
--Hit yourself with Bolt. PKT2 the enemy if they don't shield, dodge, counter or aerial.

I don't have testing partners, so I need to see what the enemy can do.

tl;dr this entire post:
--I like ness' regular moves more, though I can see his custom moves being potentially more useful.
--Bat reflecting is good after testing it out.
--Tap Jump: on or off?
--I want some technical findings in this game
AND
-- Grounded Footstool PKT is a weird mix-up. Aerial footstool I haven't bothered trying yet.

 

[Jonkku]

http://a.pomf.se/bxmdzx.webm

Regular PK Fire is just fast enough that during a full jump you can auto-cancel an aerial or double jump after it.
Neither of the custom ones can do this. For both of those you're forced in the full landing lag.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

oh hi dur yink and other nesses

just of note: practice your followups and strings from downthrow. you can get a lot depending on how they vector, if they don't double jump and you only got the downthrow you need to practice with it more. downthrow is insanely good in this game imo. also our grab range seems really large.

 

[ilysm]

Regular PK Fire is just fast enough that during a full jump you can auto-cancel an aerial or double jump after it.
Neither of the custom ones can do this. For both of those you're forced in the full landing lag.

So aerial PK Fire isn't useless after all? Nice! How strict is this to perform? Will it work by doing a DJC Pk Fire (I'm fairly certain Ness's specials will cancel aerial momentum, so that's what I mean by DJC)?

 

[SirroMinus1]

Ness Up smash first couple of frames activate from the back of him. Turn around up smash would hit from his back before he throws the Yo-Yo forward.

 

[thesage]

I've said this in another thread, but pkt juggling seems extremely good in this game. I've literally just been doing that and winning like crazy.

Haven't tried out the other customs yet.

 

[Lightosia]

It was probably said before, but Ness' Fair has a strange hitbox that sends the opponents downwards.

I got a spike(or meteor, I dunno) with this hitbox

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Yeah @ Lightosia you gotta land to cancel the fair before the final hit and opponents get knocked down.

Also @ thesage all the pk thunders can be attacked which hurts their offense power, but the tail is still nice and will stop anything short of super armor. Rolling PK Thunder is very slow and quite bad for recovery and offensively its still very slow, but it has very high knockback even on just the projectile so multiple shots are not that hard. Lucas' PK Thunder is pretty garbage on the offense. Something to watch out for is that in Brawl you could do nice pk thunder things by running off of platforms and using upB, but in Smash4 the hover you would get using pk thunder in the air doesnt occur when you use it on the ground and sliding off the stage and using upB counts as a ground use of the move....long story short: If you are using either of the custom PK Thunders while doing a running slide off the stage you will die.

 

[thesage]

Also @ thesage all the pk thunders can be attacked which hurts their offense power, but the tail is still nice and will stop anything short of super armor. Rolling PK Thunder is very slow and quite bad for recovery and offensively its still very slow, but it has very high knockback even on just the projectile so multiple shots are not that hard. Lucas' PK Thunder is pretty garbage on the offense. Something to watch out for is that in Brawl you could do nice pk thunder things by running off of platforms and using upB, but in Smash4 the hover you would get using pk thunder in the air doesnt occur when you use it on the ground and sliding off the stage and using upB counts as a ground use of the move....long story short: If you are using either of the custom PK Thunders while doing a running slide off the stage you will die.

You bait out their hitbox and then attack. Pkt is easier to manuever in this game, at least for me.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I know the counterplay, but its still a weakness in the attack.

 

[Minedreigon]

One thing I've noticed: A handful of people keep saying how Lucas' PK Fire is a better choice, but I'd argue his standard is perfectly ok. Standard is just fast enough and lasts long enough for Ness to come in with a dthrow and potentially fair combo, though the latter is rather tricky to pull off. I don't really know about the other customs: Is Rising PK Flash really better compared to the original? Does it ledgeguard as good? I'd like to know, and I need to know how to unlock it >_>.

EDIT: I've now unlocked all of Ness' customs. I still think Standard PK Fire the is best sideb due to how it starts pretty much any combo for Ness. I'd argue Lasting PK Thunder is his best upb due to the fact it can pass through people, stopping a player from sabotaging your recovery, and if they get in front of the PKT2 version, they take a ton of damage and get launched a fair bit. Rising PK Flash is pretty great n'all, but I personally prefer the original for it's power. I can see why people would consider Rising PK Flash Ness' best nb though. As for his downb, it's gotta be Foward PK Magnet, for obvious reasons.

 

[thesage]

I gotta unlock those custom moves lol.

Rising pk flash looks interesting.

 

[Minedreigon]

- Is it just me, or does Ness' upair have less KO potential than in Brawl?
- Ness' down throw is really good in this game.
- PKT feels much easier to control, especially when trying to direct it into Ness for recovery.
- Ness' increased speed from Brawl makes a hell of a lot of combos possible. It's now much easier to up tilt juggle into upair, dash attack + double fair, ext.
- KEEP NESS' ORIGINAL PK FIRE. The (most of the time) free grab is too good to pass up.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

- Is it just me, or does Ness' upair have less KO potential than in Brawl?
- Ness' down throw is really good in this game.
- PKT feels much easier to control, especially when trying to direct it into Ness for recovery.
- Ness' increased speed from Brawl makes a hell of a lot of combos possible. It's now much easier to up tilt juggle into upair, dash attack + double fair, ext.
- KEEP NESS' ORIGINAL PK FIRE. The (most of the time) free grab is too good to pass up.

Don't you dare forget about the dash attack combo after a PK Fire to punish roll-outs. I DOUBLE DARE YOU
Edit : I forgot to mention that Usmash has KO potential at higher percentages. It HAD to be said again.

 

[Minedreigon]

Don't you dare forget about the dash attack combo after a PK Fire to punish roll-outs. I DOUBLE DARE YOU
Edit : I forgot to mention that Usmash has KO potential at higher percentages. It HAD to be said again.

I am fully aware of the combo's existence, I'm just lazy to put it and just pretend it's in the "ext" part of my combos list, like I intended.

PK Flash is something I desperately want to talk about. I have Rising PK Flash, and the fact that it's really hard to actually direct sideways annoys me when ledgeguarding with the attack. I haven't played around with it much, though. Does it still KO at decently high percent? The original just has excellent power (you KO at around 70%) but it's got a smaller hitbox :[. I'm torn.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I am fully aware of the combo's existence, I'm just lazy to put it and just pretend it's in the "ext" part of my combos list, like I intended.

PK Flash is something I desperately want to talk about. I have Rising PK Flash, and the fact that it's really hard to actually direct sideways annoys me when ledgeguarding with the attack. I haven't played around with it much, though. Does it still KO at decently high percent? The original just has excellent power (you KO at around 70%) but it's got a smaller hitbox :[. I'm torn.

I can't talk about the Rising one for I don't use it, but I KNOW taht people are scared by the regular. While it is punishable, people will try to avoid it while they ar offstage either by going over or below it, leading to easy punishes. Beware of the misses through.

 

[Tikao]

ok, normal pk-fire seems the best to me now ... i reaaaaly want pk-fire omega to work but the game said no
Lucas' pk-fire has more lag then i expected, it doesn't even look much faster than normal pk-fire

so normal one seems the best to me

and uair is SOOOO sexy, it is fast, it combos, it got actually good range, 13% is good in this game ... uair is love, uair is life

i feel like not using nair because of uair, but i know that's not good xD

 

[JML]

Not sure if I just had priority, but I used a fsmash a second after Little Mac's KO move, ended up canceling his KO and destroying him. Could it be the bat reflects his KO? o.o

Either way, his bat has amazing priority or reflect abilities.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I wanna get more equipables and try out Ness with the Low Jump and Smooth Lander abilities.

 

[ToferTheHuman]

How does everyone feel about his Fsmash being smaller than Sonic's?
I feel like the range is so much shorter than it should be.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I have something I would like ppl to test. I get this CRAZY FEELING...that things that are twirling around Ness just before he absorbs them can still his other characters(like in a teams match).

Okay let me just....I'll just get to the point: Go have a FFA on Corneria and have Ness absorb the great fox guns.

 

[Tikao]

ok after some random online macthes and random little macs i finally found a realy good one and played like 30 games with him
and man, this matchup xD

i got completely destroyed the first few matches
if little mac has stage control, then that's it for you

fthrow is your friend
and pk-flash is just amazing in this matchup, pk-flash is good, pk-flash is not useless, pk-flash DOES stuff ... finally

after the first few games we went about ewven, Ness has great tools to shut little mac down with his grabgame, fthrow ,bthrow and pk-flash and pkt1 and with all these tools, this MU looked about even
I don't wanna know how other characters without that stuff want to face him xD

people, who know how to control little mac will be scary in smash 4