Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[NinjaLink]

This is wonderful. Mario can be so pesky.

Does anyone else have issues with King Dedede? He's so heavy and kills so early. He's like my worst matchup with Greninja.

I just fought one in tournament. I could work that out and put that on youtube also lol

EDIT: Here it is lol Timestamped for you https://youtu.be/JPcEf09r16g?t=4234

 

[PokemonyeWest]

@ NinjaLink you're so clutch. Thanks pal

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Man I hate the idea that I missed out on Greninja

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I noticed the first hit of Up Smash spikes when it trades with other moves, which can lead to a jab lock or just a F/D Smash. It's probably been well noted by now but just something I've had happen a few times over these last thousand or so matches.

 

[kackamee]

Is Nair>footstool really inconsistent for everyone else? It seems to be the hardest thing for me to get down.
And is jab the best option Greninja has out of a walk? Ftilt and dtilt are kinda laggy ): it seems like walking just isn't that good with him.

 

[momochuu]

its not that hard lol

 

[Funkermonster]

My amiibo hunt went awesomely last week. Camped at Target around 5 AM for 2 hours playing For Glory on my 3DS while I waited outside in line (via a mobile hotspot on my phone, though most of the games were slightly laggier than usual), and I was in 7th place with my mom. Once I got inside I was able to snag Jigglypuff, Silver Mario, Pac-Man, and my peronal favorite, Lucina and I was sooo happy with the latter two, couldn't keep my eyes off them while we rode to Toys R Us. Had to wait another hour there again, but I got 2 Greninjas and Charizard, and the store seemed to have tons of Greninjas (I heard from someone that they had 70 to be exact). I almost got Marth and had a ticket to get him, but someone in front of us in line got the last one since mom allowed him to cut in front of me, and I'm pretty unhappy about that. But the store manager was nice enough to keep searching for Marth at other stores and she'll call my house once she finds one for us. The rest of the Wave 4 figurines came in the mail 2 days ago in the Gamestop 6 pack and splatoon bundle, and I basically now have every single wave 4 figurine. The two figurines I've literally been waiting for the most of the entire roster: and , are finally here and they look fantastic, obtained both in the same day! I am easily pleased with them the ost out of all the figurines out so far, and aside from Pit, Rosalina, Dhck Hunt, and Bowser Jr I've now got the amiibos of most of my favorite characters: . Lucina in particular, became beastly after training her and she may very well be one of the strongest amiibo in the household, out of everyone else I pit her against they only other one who's beaten her so far is Mario. Greninja's amiibo AI is a little disappointing though, I notice he is constantly using DownB quite a bit and its pretty painful to watch.

Also looking at his comments here, NinjaLink plays Mega Man and Greninja? That's awesome!

 

[kackamee]

its not that hard lol

): I just suck I guess

 

[PokemonyeWest]

): I just suck I guess

It just takes a lot of practice. It really is the hardest of the advanced techniques to pull of with Greninja. Don't get discouraged.

 

[NinjaLink]

): I just suck I guess

I think you're trying to footstool early. You have more time than you think you do. You can take your time. The only time you know you took too long is when you footstool them and they're grounded.

 

[Snackss]

I really don't like the Samus matchup. The missiles are a pain to deal with because you need to perfect shield all of them, shuriken is too laggy to effectively disrupt Samus while charging, none of Greninja's combos or followups work properly because Samus is a floaty heavyweight, it's hard to chase her because of bombs. Whether it's in Greninja's favor or even or anything else, I never win consistently to the point I'd rather just play Falco or Ness or whoever else I feel like playing at the time.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I really don't like the Samus matchup. The missiles are a pain to deal with because you need to perfect shield all of them, shuriken is too laggy to effectively disrupt Samus while charging, none of Greninja's combos or followups work properly because Samus is a floaty heavyweight, it's hard to chase her because of bombs. Whether it's in Greninja's favor or even or anything else, I never win consistently to the point I'd rather just play Falco or Ness or whoever else I feel like playing at the time.

Samus is a pain *online*

 

[momochuu]

the only hard part of the default nair footstool combo is the second footstool. everything other than that is pretty easy.

 

[NinjaLink]

I really don't like the Samus matchup. The missiles are a pain to deal with because you need to perfect shield all of them, shuriken is too laggy to effectively disrupt Samus while charging, none of Greninja's combos or followups work properly because Samus is a floaty heavyweight, it's hard to chase her because of bombs. Whether it's in Greninja's favor or even or anything else, I never win consistently to the point I'd rather just play Falco or Ness or whoever else I feel like playing at the time.

You're overthinking it. Dont always think how do you get in. Ask yourself how are they supposed to hit you. You have good mobility to just avoid everything thrown out you. You dont ever resort to shield, especially with greninja. Throw shurikens to disrupt charging. Regardless of it hitting or not, they have to react to it and think of another plan. You can HP to push her off while charging also. You want to deal with missiles? Sub them. Put the doll/log on the stage and make it a shield for you if you want to take that route. You're Greninja. Your attack plan should be anything but straight forward.

 

[FullMoon]

I really hope I'm not the only one who read the post above in a military tone, especially the "You're Greninja" part.

 

[Snackss]

Shuriken recovery is slow. If Samus shoots, you're going to get hit too, and if they have a charge shot, it completely rules out using shuriken. Mewtwo is even worse because his grabs give him so much stage control. And then how do you even approach them at that point?

And I hate that Greninja is one of the characters who gets his side special when he does diagonally up. It's absolutely stupid and there's no reason that should exist for any character. If you push up, you should get an up special.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Additionally, you can rush Samus down pretty effectively since she falters up close. Her jab is unsafe at percents up to around 40% so just jab in the middle of her 1-2 (though, good Samus' probably aren't going to use this unsafe jab often). The biggest issue I have with Samus is that her Zair is really good as a "get off me" move, and she's deceptively heavy so she always tends to stay alive for a long time

 

[NinjaLink]

Shuriken recovery is slow. If Samus shoots, you're going to get hit too, and if they have a charge shot, it completely rules out using shuriken. Mewtwo is even worse because his grabs give him so much stage control. And then how do you even approach them at that point?

And I hate that Greninja is one of the characters who gets his side special when he does diagonally up. It's absolutely stupid and there's no reason that should exist for any character. If you push up, you should get an up special.

Baby shurikens has less lag than missiles. What are you talking about? You're thinking in absolutes and being too straight forward with approaching. She cant shield grab you anyway if you nair properly dure to her slow grab. You can bait her up-b and punish it.

Pressing diagonally up gives you side b with EVERY CHARACTER. Any higher than the groove on the GC controller is counted as UP-b. Learn how to deal with that and dont just default to the corner.

 

[NinjaLink]

*double post*

 

[Snackss]

Baby shurikens has less lag than missiles. What are you talking about? You're thinking in absolutes and being too straight forward with approaching. She cant shield grab you anyway if you nair properly dure to her slow grab. You can bait her up-b and punish it.

Charge Shot, not missiles. Water Shuriken is pretty telegraphed, they can just use their attack as well and trade. Not saying she has an advantage, but getting through missiles and charge shot is a disaster online.
That also doesn't solve anything for Mewtwo though, who not only has an adequate grab, but a KO throw and a better neutral air than Samus. The matchup thread hasn't gotten to Mewtwo yet and matchup knowledge is sorely lacking in general, so I don't know.

Pressing diagonally up gives you side b with EVERY CHARACTER. Any higher than the groove on the GC controller is counted as UP-b. Learn how to deal with that and dont just default to the corner.

That's simply not true. Compare Greninja's with Captain Falcon's or Fox and Falco's.

 

[NinjaLink]

Charge Shot, not missiles. Water Shuriken is pretty telegraphed, they can just use their attack as well and trade. Not saying she has an advantage, but getting through missiles and charge shot is a disaster online.
That also doesn't solve anything for Mewtwo though, who not only has an adequate grab, but a KO throw and a better neutral air than Samus. The matchup thread hasn't gotten to Mewtwo yet and matchup knowledge is sorely lacking in general, so I don't know.



That's simply not true. Compare Greninja's with Captain Falcon's or Fox and Falco's.

You just want to complain instead of trying to think outside the box. The diagonal thing is how the game is coded. Its the SAME for everything including falcon, fox and falco.

 

[momochuu]

the diagonal thing happens to me when i play sheik lol. you're ideally supposed to do up b and then go in a diagonal direction really fast after that, not do diagonal forward + b.

 

[kackamee]

I think you're trying to footstool early. You have more time than you think you do. You can take your time. The only time you know you took too long is when you footstool them and they're grounded.

Thanks, this helped a lot (: I was doing it too fast

 

[Snackss]

You just want to complain instead of trying to think outside the box. The diagonal thing is how the game is coded. Its the SAME for everything including falcon, fox and falco.

That's factually wrong. Try it. Other characters gets up B in the air if the stick is tilted slightly upward. Greninja needs to be about a 20 degree angle away from straight up, anywhere else is side b. You might want to test it yourself before saying it's the same for every character again.

Did you not think it was strange how often people SD'd as Greninja?

 

[kackamee]

I think I agree with Snacks on this one, but I have no proof other than experience. It seems on certain characters (Greninja mainly, but also sometimes on Mk, Sheik, Little Mac, and Pit) that their angles on their up-b inputs are a bit stricter. I thought it was definitely true for Greninja at least, and probably Mac, but I never payed much attention to it since it came easier with practice.

If it's not true, there at least has to be a reason why it feels that way.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I haven't accidentally Shadow Sneak'd since like when the game first came out. Is that seriously still an issue for people?

 

[momochuu]

tbh i think we beat diddy now. his side b is so risky for him to use while recovering against greninja.

 

[Space thing]

Using the grooves on my controller to test things, it does actually appear that Greninja has a smaller angle where he can up B than at least some (probably most) characters (tested Mario, ZSS, Jugglypuff, G&W specifically). I didn't expect that. I could still be making a judgement error here, but the difference seems to go slightly beyond the grooves so it seems legit.

Either way, it's still something that is very easy to avoid doing by mistake. I think I've messed it up twice in the past month or so? I bounce off of the ledge more than that, and that's still pretty rare.

 

[Snackss]

It's only Greninja. Not Sheik, no other characters as far as I can tell, though I haven't personally tested every single character. And when you're trying to run forward, short hop, then Hydro Pump forward then backwards, you need to hit 3 angles just right in the span of less than a second. That's some King of Fighters short hop/ super jump type nonsense. It would be significantly more manageable if not for this one quirk that inexplicably affects only Greninja. I don't see why a character who's already difficult to play needs an execution barrier on top of that. And it doesn't matter if you can avoid doing it when you don't want to. There's no reason for it to exist.

And why does aMSa always go for forward air after down tilt? He knows it doesn't combo until over 100% and nobody ever falls for it below that.

 

[FullMoon]

I didn't know aMSa did that a lot but I used to do it too, now I typically D-Tilt and if I know I won't be getting the Up-Smash I do an empty hop to scare them into airdodging so I can fast fall and F-Smash them.

 

[Snackss]

Traded an up smash with one of Fox's aerial while standing at the ledge and he got spiked. I don't know if it was recoverable and he was just too surprised to react or what.

 

[FullMoon]

That can happen sometimes, it's pretty hard to react in time to the spike hitbox that happens after a trade with Up-Smash. There's even a clip in my montage where it happens to a Falcon player who could've recovered if he hadn't airdodged for whatever reason.

 

[Croph]

Liberation wanted me to come to Greninja because apparently there's froge memes.



Also, I wouldn't mind getting a Greninja amiibo for the heck of it since I think the amiibo looks pretty cool. Someday...

 

[NinjaLink]

That's factually wrong. Try it. Other characters gets up B in the air if the stick is tilted slightly upward. Greninja needs to be about a 20 degree angle away from straight up, anywhere else is side b. You might want to test it yourself before saying it's the same for every character again.

Did you not think it was strange how often people SD'd as Greninja?

I think I agree with Snacks on this one, but I have no proof other than experience. It seems on certain characters (Greninja mainly, but also sometimes on Mk, Sheik, Little Mac, and Pit) that their angles on their up-b inputs are a bit stricter. I thought it was definitely true for Greninja at least, and probably Mac, but I never payed much attention to it since it came easier with practice.

If it's not true, there at least has to be a reason why it feels that way.

I have tested it more than enough. Most ppl make this mistake by pressing B too late and try to angle the up-b before actually inputting it. They tend to rush. Maybe you dont understand. Holding the upper diagonal grooves on the gamecube controller will make every character do side b. Tilt it just a millimeter above the groove and you will get up-b. Strangely the lower diagonal grooves will get you down b. The game is just coded for up-b to have very slighty less of a field then the other directions while down b has the most.

 

[kackamee]

Yeah, that would make sense, especially since it seems to happen a lot more on WiFi than offline

 

[Snackss]

I have tested it more than enough. Most ppl make this mistake by pressing B too late and try to angle the up-b before actually inputting it. They tend to rush. Maybe you dont understand. Holding the upper diagonal grooves on the gamecube controller will make every character do side b. Tilt it just a millimeter above the groove and you will get up-b. Strangely the lower diagonal grooves will get you down b. The game is just coded for up-b to have very slighty less of a field then the other directions while down b has the most.

On the ground. On the ground, tilting above the x-axis still gives you side b. In the AIR, the exact same input that gives you side b on the ground will give you up b. The same applies to down B. Try it with any character other than Greninja. Stand on the ground, hold your stick at a diagonal, use a special. It will be a side special. Without moving the stick, jump and do an up special. You'll get the up special. This more forgiving angle in the air applies to up specials, but not every down special. This has been in every Smash Bros. as far as I can tell, presumably so people don't accidentally use their side B and SD. Now repeat the test with Greninja. It will be Shadow Sneak, EVERY TIME. Whether in the air or on the ground.

This implies that there must some kind of fundamental difference where the game doesn't make any distinction between Greninja being on the ground or in the air when it comes to activating his side b. The angle for Shadow Sneak remains the same whether he is in the air or on the ground. This is especially odd because Hydro Pump functions differently in the air and on the ground, so it's not as though the game is unable to tell he's in the air. It simply retains the angles used for ground attacks. It has nothing to do with when the B button is pressed, and this doesn't apply to any other character as far as I can tell.

 

[Aqua 水]

Greninja was always one of the worst offenders when it came to "circle pad syndrome" on the 3DS, but once you get used to actually playing him, it isn't much of a problem. Unless you're trying to do a hydro-bubble in which case, it is.

As ninjalink said, just make sure you activate the move before trying to change directions and you will be golden.

 

[Snackss]

It's fine and all when you're remembering to go straight up rather than a diagonal, but I still have no idea why this only applies to Greninja.

 

[FullMoon]

It's still kind of a minor thing to get so up in arms about. I have one or two moments where I SS instead of HP in recent memory so it's not a big deal.

 

[Deleted member]

To use Up B right you have to have passed geometry class . But in all seriousness, if you find yourself shadow sneaking or getting bad angles, just go into training mode and practice repeatedly from all angles and both sides of the stage for a while until you get it right. I had to do that when I picked up Greninja, but now my training mode time is dedicated to footstool combos.

On a side note, I imported a Greninja (or should I say Gekkouga?) amiibo from Play Asia last week and it looks like its going to be here tomorrow. I caved and payed $50 for it. #worth