Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Snackss]

I have a lot of trouble with Zelda. It's hard to figure out how and when to punish, and she has one of the best reflectors.

 

[NinjaLink]

Is this what you're looking for?

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is a footstool god lol.

 

[momochuu]

if only he wasn't so bad atm

 

[KERO]

Yep, that's exactly it. Love the added Utilt Uair combos. Probably need to do the Shuri-->footstool-->Dair one more time in actual matches due to staling (assuming you don't have much rage built up), but on the plus side, that Usmash definitely would've killed at that percent.

It's a shame I seem incapable of playing Greninja without a projectile.

 

[momochuu]

there's a kill combo with it, i'll try to record it but its really hard lol.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Been playing a lot of Greninja lately. I'm about 150 matches in with 'im at this point. I like the feel of the character and his play style (a mix of lame and offensive). One thing I've been practicing in training but can't seem to work is any of his footstool combos. I must not be jumping fast enough after an attack? Or is it character specific? If so, is there a list of characters it works on and those it doesn't?

EDIT: four hours later and I think I've got it

 

[momochuu]

it is character specific. on "normal" chars like yoshi, sonic, pit, mario, etc, you can just do the basic nair footstool dair twice into nair usmash. some heavy characters you have to do nair dtilt footstool starter.

 

[FullMoon]

Platinum froge guys

 

[Snackss]

What are you even supposed to do against custom Palutena? Seems like she can hop in place and space all day, but you can't space because Superspeed beats all of Greninja's options. What do you do? Hydro Pump? I have no idea, it's such an absurd character.

 

[FullMoon]

What are you even supposed to do against custom Palutena? Seems like she can hop in place and space all day, but you can't space because Superspeed beats all of Greninja's options. What do you do? Hydro Pump? I have no idea, it's such an absurd character.

No experience with custom Palutena unfortunately, but you can probably stop Superspeed in it's place with Shifting Shuriken and get a free Up-Smash on Palutena with it.

Anyway

Slowly but surely I'm climbing this ladder.

 

[Kace Mono]

What are you even supposed to do against custom Palutena? Seems like she can hop in place and space all day, but you can't space because Superspeed beats all of Greninja's options. What do you do? Hydro Pump? I have no idea, it's such an absurd character.

i like to Dtaunt. Its rather satisfying if they arent expecting it. otherwise just shield it and follow up afterwards. you can wait until after the Bair and depending on which way your facing you can Bair or Fair yourself, or if they fast fall you can SHFFNair and catch then with a jab combo or grab. depending on their other customs though depends on what you can do i suppose though. i have a friend that mained custom palutena and for the longest time he had me stumped.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Guess I'm gonna follow through with what I said and play Greninja as a secondary. Mewtwo wasn't cutting it (in more ways than one).

Hi guys.

Smooth Criminal

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I've got some replays of Greninja play in my 3DS vault. Gonna upload them and post links here for critique?

 

[FullMoon]

Guess I'm gonna follow through with what I said and play Greninja as a secondary. Mewtwo wasn't cutting it (in more ways than one).

Hi guys.

Smooth Criminal

Well, welcome to our little pond! =V

I've got some replays of Greninja play in my 3DS vault. Gonna upload them and post links here for critique?

You post it in the video thread.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

You post it in the video thread.

zoop, makes sense

what's that ranking banner you keep posting?

 

[kackamee]

Anyway

Slowly but surely I'm climbing this ladder.

Would you consider saving your replays and posting them online? I know WiFi is WiFi, but I think any footage is good footage for new players

 

[bc1910]

I have a lot of trouble with Zelda. It's hard to figure out how and when to punish, and she has one of the best reflectors.

I also find Zelda irritating to fight haha. We definitely don't lose but it's hard to know when to safely hit her. I usually find myself attacking her dodges and shields or getting hit by Nayru's Love the whole match but then winning anyway because she couldn't do anything back.

 

[Coffee™]

some ****ty combo

What is the point of posting combos like this that don't even factor in DI. A lot of the Greninja combos I generally see posted are either techable or avoidable through DI. Also Fthrow to Nair??!!

That's not even a thing...

Yep, that's exactly it. Love the added Utilt Uair combos. Probably need to do the Shuri-->footstool-->Dair one more time in actual matches due to staling (assuming you don't have much rage built up), but on the plus side, that Usmash definitely would've killed at that percent.

It's a shame I seem incapable of playing Greninja without a projectile.

You need to pratice his movement without the default Shuriken for a bit to really get the grasp of how to best use him without a far reaching projectile.

You can't just pick up stagnant coming from default and expect to play the same. This move alone changes the characters playstyle tremendously.

Guess I'm gonna follow through with what I said and play Greninja as a secondary. Mewtwo wasn't cutting it (in more ways than one).

Hi guys.

Smooth Criminal

Honestly...Mewtwo is probably a better character than Greninja in this game....but his lightness will hold him back for a while until people optimize his movement options. But imo his kit is better.

I also find Zelda irritating to fight haha. We definitely don't lose but it's hard to know when to safely hit her. I usually find myself attacking her dodges and shields or getting hit by Nayru's Love the whole match but then winning anyway because she couldn't do anything back.

Retreating Bair + Jab and you win. Fair helps a good bit too.

EDIT.

Just watched @ NinjaLink video.

Is this what you're looking for?

This is really good for Greninjas neutral. Does he get the footstool on most characters from a successful Shuriken at 0%?

If so....this move is gonna be too nutty.

 

[Coffee™]

Double post due to my phone being butt..

-_-

 

[momochuu]

What is the point of posting combos like this that don't even factor in DI. A lot of the Greninja combos I generally see posted are either techable or avoidable through DI. Also Fthrow to Nair??!!

That's not even a thing...

its good to know i'm not the only person that never learned how to read...

Honestly...Mewtwo is probably a better character than Greninja in this game

>mewtwo avatar

girl bye

 

[Coffee™]

its good to know i'm not the only person that never learned how to read...

If you couldn't read....why are you typing this...lol.

Either way I didnt go to youtube. Just watched the link from my phone.....wheeeeeere you can't see what was written in the descriptions...

>mewtwo avatar

girl bye

Condedcending and irrelevant much?

Yup...

 

[bc1910]

I'll give retreating Bairs a go. As I said I don't lose to Zelda, but it's just cause she's so lacklustre she can't do much to me besides chip away with Nayru's haha. I'd need serious help in the MU if she was better.

Frankly I think Mewtwo and Greninja both have pretty lacklustre kits but Greninja is saved by his excellent mobility above all. I personally think Greninja's best moves are better than Mewtwo's and his kit is slightly better overall but I can see why one would think Mewtwo's kit is better.

 

[FullMoon]

Can't see Mewtwo being better than Greninja when he's so fragile against speedy characters which happen to be comprised of most of the best characters in the game.

But honestly every day I feel less like talking about this kind of stuff and feel more like just playing the game and not care about what people have been saying.

Maybe I should quit Smashboards lol.

 

[bc1910]

Can't see Mewtwo being better than Greninja when he's so fragile against speedy characters which happen to be comprised of most of the best characters in the game.

But honestly every day I feel less like talking about this kind of stuff and feel more like just playing the game and not care about what people have been saying.

Maybe I should quit Smashboards lol.

I don't think he meant Mewtwo is better, I think he was just talking about his raw toolkit being better. I don't agree either way but as I said I can see why some would appreciate Mewtwo's tools more.

 

[Coffee™]

I'll give retreating Bairs a go. As I said I don't lose to Zelda, but it's just cause she's so lacklustre she can't do much to me besides chip away with Nayru's haha. I'd need serious help in the MU if she was better.

Yeah Zelda doesn't really do much if you just don't approach her recklessly. Bair gives Greninja a quick aerial to pressure her with instead of having to rely on reading her plays as much. Still generally a pushover matchup though.

Frankly I think Mewtwo and Greninja both have pretty lacklustre kits but Greninja is saved by his excellent mobility above all. I personally think Greninja's best moves are better than Mewtwo's and his kit is slightly better overall but I can see why one would think Mewtwo's kit is better.

Mewtwo's kit is considerably better imo. He has way safer pokes, solid combos, a better defensive game once he isn't getting juggled and superior killing options. Greninja's mobility is what makes his kit work, but overall it's not as solid as Mewtwo's own in comparison.

Can't see Mewtwo being better than Greninja when he's so fragile against speedy characters which happen to be comprised of most of the best characters in the game.

I don't think he meant Mewtwo is better, I think he was just talking about his raw toolkit being better.

Pretty much this ^

But honestly every day I feel less like talking about this kind of stuff and feel more like just playing the game and not care about what people have been saying.

Maybe I should quit Smashboards lol.

Debating, arguing and worrying about the stuff people say on Smashboards honestly doesn't get you too far and will probably frustrate you to no end on this site if you feel like you have to prove your point to people. I've had my few years of that in the Brawl era. Imo, just make the most out of information you get out of the site, contribute what you can and just try not to take anything too seriously...It's just not worth it most of the time. Also, results tend to speak better than words around this place.

Don't quit tho xD

Now on the topic of Stagnant. I'm trying out some footstool stuff with this move atm......Definitely can't wait to try out some of this stuff in tourney.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

You can play Super Theory Bros. all day if you want... I personally don't see the point in comparing Mewtwo to Greninja.

 

[FullMoon]

I lost to the best Zelda in Anther's Ladder just yesterday and you guys are making me feel bad for it lol.

I don't really think Greninja's kit is lackluster though, I mean, the frame data is bad, yeah, but I don't think it's that much of a deal breaker. Might be my bias talking though.

 

[Coffee™]

I lost to the best Zelda in Anther's Ladder just yesterday and you guys are making me feel bad for it lol

You shouldn't, lol Zelda's kinda weird until you understand her. I got bodied by Ed's Zelda for a bit earlier in the game's release but once you figure out the character she's should seem fairly limited.

I don't really think Greninja's kit is lackluster though, I mean, the frame data is bad, yeah, but I don't think it's that much of a deal breaker. Might be my bias talking though.

His kit isn't really lackluster, it's just really precise, but it's good. No bias here xD

 

[FullMoon]

I've faced that Zelda player like 10 times and I consistently lose so =V

I actually have a lot of experience against Zelda, but she just has this ability to make me really nervous thanks to her Farore shenanigans and early kills with it.

 

[Kace Mono]

Got mah Greninja Amiibo!! God i love not pre-ordering sometimes XD

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Got mah Greninja Amiibo!! God i love not pre-ordering sometimes XD

Congratulations!

 

[FullMoon]

I pre-ordered mine but I'm a bit nervous about whether I'll be able to get it or not.

 

[Deleted member]

I pre-ordered mine too and it should be coming in either tomorrow or Monday. Any nickname suggestions for it? I suck with names.

 

[Makani]

What are the best moves to cover ledge options with Greninja? Something I noticed I don't do often is trying to catch people as they're getting up from the ledge.

I like to run off rising BAir back on stage, usually catches people off guard and it's not as easy to punish unless they ledge roll, in which case they'd have to be expecting you to BAir back on stage for an optimal punish. I also like to just Hydropump horizontally to push them back off stage or launch them higher in the air than they expect if they ledge hop, this is my favorite method cuz generally people get caught way off guard and don't know what to do before you can run under them and USmash or UAir.
Alternatively you could just harass them coming to the ledge by run off BAiring as they're rising to the ledge or stand at the very tip of the ledge and DAir spike them before they ledge snap, been trying this out alot and it's not a bad option IMO.

I also picked up my Greninja amiibo today AW YUS, i've been training a bit through out the past hour and a half hopefully making it a monster. I also picked up Pacman as well just because.

 

[Eddy]

i had no luck with my greninja amiibo hunt hopefully ill get one soon

 

[KERO]

This is really good for Greninjas neutral. Does he get the footstool on most characters from a successful Shuriken at 0%?

If so....this move is gonna be too nutty.

Yeah, he does. Even crazier is that it's same number of hits whether full charged or even slightly charged (six hits). Completely uncharged, it's five hits (check me on this, but in my tests I only ever got five hits from uncharged), but that's still just enough to get the footstool in. As long as they run into one of those hits, the footstool is guaranteed iIrc. We can probably get a ton of stuff off of it besides what we've seen so far.

I get what you're saying about having to change my playstyle as well. Guess I'll mess around with it some more. Do you have any videos of yourself for reference as to how I should be incorporating Stagnant into my game? I tend to use a very zone-centric and defensive playstyle (I often use regular Shuriken to catch landings farther away in order to build momentum). Trying to learn time-out as well right now.

 

[David Galanos]

Sup guys. I was thinking of picking up a secondary recently, but decided to just forget it. I wanted one to cover bad mus and stuff, not because I have been struggling against them really, but I was just thinking to myself "what would it be like if I just had another character to use". I tried to level up my fox who I have been using on the side for a bit in friendlies, but he's just not good enough to fight sheik or do fox dittos, or fight sonic either. I decided to just forget about picking up any other characters for now, since I'm not even having trouble against them really. Recently I have been beating sheik mains who are better players than me.

I just see everyone at tournaments who have 2-3 characters they use for certain matchups, and part of me wanted to have that because I thought it would be nice. To be frank my other characters suck at higher level play, I really only use them against players I'm significantly better than.

I honestly think Greninja can fight any character too. Maybe that will change if sheiks and foxes really learn the matchup and play all defensive and what not. Do you guys think sheiks/foxes will dominate us hard(er) if they learn the matchup more?? Sometimes I feel like I'm only doing good against them because they might not know the mu

 

[FullMoon]

Lack of MU knowledge is a probable factor, yes, but I've played against a Sheik player in particular loads of times in the ladder and I could still win consistently pre-patch so I think we shouldn't concern ourselves with that too much. Greninja doesn't look like he'll be a really popular character anytime soon so I doubt many people will bother learning the MU.

 

[Coffee™]

I've faced that Zelda player like 10 times and I consistently lose so =V

I actually have a lot of experience against Zelda, but she just has this ability to make me really nervous thanks to her Farore shenanigans and early kills with it.

I can see that online. That **** is way easier to land on wifi when you have to deal with input lag. I just generally never approach Zelda and toss WS while spacing jumps around her till she either gets baited into something or she chooses to approach, which she's pretty terrible at. Who is the Zelda player you have issues with? I'd like to see some of his play.

What are the best moves to cover ledge options with Greninja? Something I noticed I don't do often is trying to catch people as they're getting up from the ledge.

I like to run off rising BAir back on stage, usually catches people off guard and it's not as easy to punish unless they ledge roll, in which case they'd have to be expecting you to BAir back on stage for an optimal punish. I also like to just Hydropump horizontally to push them back off stage or launch them higher in the air than they expect if they ledge hop, this is my favorite method cuz generally people get caught way off guard and don't know what to do before you can run under them and USmash or UAir.

Alternatively you could just harass them coming to the ledge by run off BAiring as they're rising to the ledge or stand at the very tip of the ledge and DAir spike them before they ledge snap, been trying this out alot and it's not a bad option IMO.

I adapted this from a previous thread for my own personal use but it should help with this question.

Smart positioning and patience allow Greninja to react to most of an opponent’s options on the ledge, netting him the KO or a more advantageous position You can practice this by having a training partner randomly select his actions until you can properly punish every option 100% of the time (except for the ledge getup).

1. Force enemy off-stage and let them grab the ledge.
2. Position Greninja just outside the foe’s ledge attack range, this will also be where the enemy ends up if they roll.
3. Wait and watch for the enemy’s action. Baiting a reaction is also an option here.
a. They do a ledge attack. Dsmash / F-smash them. SSneak on reaction should be able to avoid any attack thrown out and punish them.
b. They do a ledge jump. Setup a landing trap or cover with Usmash/Uair.
c. They do a ledge roll. Punish with dash grab or dash attack. If unsure of which side of Greninja the enemy will end on, use Dsmash. Utilt is generally also a good option as it covers both sides as well.
d. They do a ledge getup. This is the one option generally too fast for reaction, especially since the beginning animation can be ambiguous as to which ledge action is happening. Greninja can predict this option and dash in with a grab beforehand, but if Greninja guesses wrong than any of the other ledge options will succeed.
e. They continue hanging onto the ledge. Keep waiting. After about seven seconds the enemy will be forced to either let go of the ledge and re-grab without invincibility or execute one of the aforementioned options.

Yeah, he does. Even crazier is that it's same number of hits whether full charged or even slightly charged (six hits). Completely uncharged, it's five hits (check me on this, but in my tests I only ever got five hits from uncharged), but that's still just enough to get the footstool in. As long as they run into one of those hits, the footstool is guaranteed iIrc. We can probably get a ton of stuff off of it besides what we've seen so far.

I get what you're saying about having to change my playstyle as well. Guess I'll mess around with it some more. Do you have any videos of yourself for reference as to how I should be incorporating Stagnant into my game? I tend to use a very zone-centric and defensive playstyle (I often use regular Shuriken to catch landings farther away in order to build momentum). Trying to learn time-out as well right now.

Yea I played around with it earlier tonight and I'm really loving that fact that footstool is guaranteed out of it. It has a ton of combo potential. Not sure on the amount of hits though. I'll check tomorrow when I'm less sleepy lol.

As for playstyle, being zone-centric and defensive is fine with this custom. It's more of a defensive move than offensive in terms of how Greninja generally uses it in neutral. I haven't played around with it long enough to go into detail though. If you're down we can play some games with it later and figure it out.

i had no luck with my greninja amiibo hunt hopefully ill get one soon

GL man they are ridiculously hard to get a hold of. I'm not even gonna try till Nintendo makes more or I just happen to have one fall into my lap. lol