Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[FullMoon]

Greninja was stated to be up on 7-9 AM EST... he went up at 2 AM. He sold out in 20-30 minutes. And, in addition, TRU appears to not have any in-store preorders.

Oh wow.

I'm just gonna import mine and be done with it. I already have mine pre-ordered alongside Robin and Palutena.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Queue all the sad greninja pics

Spoiler

 

[KERO]

Really wish I had the money to spend on Greninja Amiibos. Hopefully they restock by the time I do.

In other news, perhaps this was found out during my absence, I found that Greninja's arms literally do not have hurtboxes. If you try and use a jab, Fsmash, etc., on a bumper as long as Greninja's body itself doesn't touch it, Greninja won't bounce back. I have some pictures if you're all interested.


Edit: Disregard this post.

 

[Lavani]

In other news, perhaps this was found out during my absence, I found that Greninja's arms literally do not have hurtboxes. If you try and use a jab, Fsmash, etc., on a bumper as long as Greninja's body itself doesn't touch it, Greninja won't bounce back. I have some pictures if you're all interested.

(Note: Swear if that's patched, I'm gonna be furious lol)

I think this is just a property with bumpers and how they decide to bounce you away, because Luigi can punch them too but neither character can punch Bob-ombs, and Greninja in particular should have more than enough range to do it safely with his jab1 or jab2 if his arms were disjointed.

 

[KERO]

I think this is just a property with bumpers and how they decide to bounce you away, because Luigi can punch them too but neither character can punch Bob-ombs, and Greninja in particular should have more than enough range to do it safely with his jab1 or jab2 if his arms were disjointed.

Well, I'm now testing it with Shifting Shuriken, and I'm getting the same results (Fsmash and jab go through it safely). I'm almost positive it's disjointed. As for the Bob-Omb thing, Marth barely has enough range with his jab. Although, I'll admit, the shape of the Bumpers made the jab/Fsmash/Usmash seem more disjointed than they really are. I still believe that Greninja's arms are entirely disjointed (really wish his feet were instead).

Edit: Disregard this post.

 

[Lavani]

As for the Bob-Omb thing, Marth barely has enough range with his jab.

I can promise you that one doesn't need anywhere near that much disjoint to hit Bob-Ombs safely. I use Bob-ombs for testing disjoint on tons of characters, their explosion range is bigger than some disjoints but characters with much stubbier arms than Greninja can get away with punching bombs safely:

as can things like C.Falcon's dash attack and fsmash.

Maybe there's some disjoint past his arms on his jabs (there definitely is on jab3/rapid jab ender) but I don't see anything suggesting that his arms are intangible or that Bumpers are a reliable testing method.

 

[KERO]

I can promise you that one doesn't need anywhere near that much disjoint to hit Bob-Ombs safely. I use Bob-ombs for testing disjoint on tons of characters, their explosion range is bigger than some disjoints but characters with much stubbier arms than Greninja can get away with punching bombs safely:

as can things like C.Falcon's dash attack and fsmash.

Maybe there's some disjoint past his arms on his jabs (there definitely is on jab3/rapid jab ender) but I don't see anything suggesting that his arms are intangible or that Bumpers are a reliable testing method.

Mmm, fair enough haha. Guess I should just stick to kill percents lol.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

my greNINJAS! What you guys think about the new dlc options and the fact that our main is a store exclusive...NOOOOO

Just wanted to post a video about my thoughts...no greninja footage. If this violates anything @Mocha feel free to take it down or let me know where else I can put it. Thanks : )

 

[bc1910]

So there's a balance patch on the way. I'd love to see Greninja get some small buffs, although I'm not holding out much hope since most of the moves I'd like to see buffed have already been nerfed. It'd be amazing to see Shuriken, Usmash and Uair returned to their former glory. Even if Shurikens had their ending lag reduced by like 3-4 frames, that'd be great. I think some other interesting buffs would be reducing the startup lag of Nair and Fair, and increasing the active frames of Nair's hitbox a bit so that Greninja actually has a useful lasting hitbox.

Even if Greninja was untouched I'd mostly be fine with it. As long as Sonic, Sheik and Diddy get what's coming to them I think Greninja will be in a good place with very balanced MUs across the board.

 

[Kite0692]

I played against a sonic last night and it was horrible, lmao. I got like 30% everytime he touched me.

Even if Greninja was untouched I'd mostly be fine with it. As long as Sonic, Sheik and Diddy get what's coming to them I think Greninja will be in a good place with very balanced MUs across the board.

This!

 

[bc1910]

I played against a sonic last night and it was horrible, lmao. I got like 30% everytime he touched me.

Yeah Sonic is a really rough MU for Froge. You have to fight him almost perfectly without making any mistakes, since he'll answer any mistakes you do make with a 20-30% combo. The issue with Sonic is that he can fish for those big combos all day without putting himself at any risk. Sonic wouldn't be anywhere near as hard to deal with if Spin Dash's priority was lower. I also think Homing Spin should force him to land all the time, rather than letting him slam into the ground and then double jump if he does the attack close enough to the ground.

 

[Guimartgon]

Hi! I'm brand new to the forums although I've been following the Greninja threads as well as the overall popular threads in general, you know, lurking around.
Anyways I'm pretty new to the competitive scene but I've been trying my best to get better and so far I guess I am an under-average For Glory guy, but hey, at least I don't get rekt by bad Little Macs so that's something I guess.
Anyways I'm really pumped with how much I've been learning this past few months and I'm hoping to at some point be useful for the community

 

[BlueTerrorist]

So I got 5th at a tourney today, losing to Vinnie's Sheik in Winner's semi's and Diddy in losers. There were 43 participants. It was streamed so I'll have vids soon.

 

[wizardto1]

Queue all the sad greninja pics

Spoiler

The ads are literally taunting me about it. ;_;

Anyway, I have a habit of a bit of excessive rolling, which would lead me to a punish,and when I successfully shield something, instead of punishing, I sometimes sidedodge instead. Any way to fix this habit?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Anyway, I have a habit of a bit of excessive rolling, which would lead me to a punish,and when I successfully shield something, instead of punishing, I sometimes sidedodge instead. Any way to fix this habit?

Not really. Just the fact that you're aware of it helps though. You'll ease out of it. Probably.

 

[bc1910]

When I successfully shield something, instead of punishing, I sometimes sidedodge instead. Any way to fix this habit?

I used to have this exact same problem! Damn, I'd forgotten about that. Don't worry about it too much; with practice, you'll simply stop doing it if you train yourself to stop doing it. Training yourself to stop doing it is as simple as thinking "ugh, I shouldn't have done that" after doing it, which I'm sure you do already. You can also try training yourself to press A after blocking an attack rather than pressing down, which will cause you to shieldgrab rather than spotdodge.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hey, I posted a video of some matches versus a Lucario in our subforum's video section. Anyone willing to give some critique on my Greninja? I've got a tournament coming up on Tuesday, so some pointers would be appreciated.

I mean, I go to these weeklies frequently, but this upcoming one is different because I've got friends coming with me as well, so I want to do super-good while in their presence. Plus, I have this terrible curse where I just can't seem to attain two wins whenever I go to that weekly. I need to break thaaaat.

I almost got two wins last week, but I lost in losers because of the hydro pump ledge bounce where you go helpless and DIE. ;~;

TL;DR some nerd would appreciate some critique on how to improve his greninja play

 

[ZephyrZ]

I've sees many Greninja fans cracking jokes about how he's probably going to be nerfed in the next balancing patch. I have a feeling this is all some part of some great, elaborate scheme.

Version 1.06: Greninja's Substitute now does 25% recoil damage when uses succesfully.
Version 1.08: Greninja's Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak now to slight recoil damage as well.
Version 1.09: Greninja's Hydro Pump is now Agility, just like Pichu from Melee.
Version 1.11: A couple of Greninja's attacks obtain electrical properties.

....

Version 2.00: Greninja has been removed from the roster entirely. Instead, Pichu has now taken its place.

I'd say it's pretty inevitable at this point. It's going to happen eventually, guys.

 

[Funkermonster]

Went to a ranbats tournament yesterday with customs, placed 17th out of 33 people and survived only 3 games. I haven't played the game in two weeks, and this is the fastest I've ever been knocked out in awhile. Won 1 game against a Shulk, but then I was pitted against a really good Marth player who is #3 in our state's PR, I managed to take one game off of him and people were cheering for me, but he made a hard comeback afterwards and I got 2 stocked in the next games. Was pitted against a new Falcon player afterwards, and got beaten again. There's a national happenin in about 2 weeks from now and I'm not ready, my mom confiscated my game for like 2 weeks now and I think its affecting my performance. I really need to get my game back...

Yeah Sonic is a really rough MU for Froge. You have to fight him almost perfectly without making any mistakes, since he'll answer any mistakes you do make with a 20-30% combo. The issue with Sonic is that he can fish for those big combos all day without putting himself at any risk. Sonic wouldn't be anywhere near as hard to deal with if Spin Dash's priority was lower. I also think Homing Spin should force him to land all the time, rather than letting him slam into the ground and then double jump if he does the attack close enough to the ground.

While I agree that Sonic is a bad matchup for Ninja, I largely disagree with everything else.

1. You do realize that Sonic's spindash is already not just low, its laughable, right? Really, the spindash does lead to big damage, but its priority is so low that even a jab or tilt will stop him dead in his tracks, and some attacks like 's melon fruit will beat it outright and give him damage and knockback.
2. You want that that to happen to Homing Attack..... why? Just like the spindash, that too has pathetic priority and gets beat out by a lot of things, almost anyone can just stop it with an Up Smash or Up Tilt. Not to mention you can just spotdodge it and then punish after awards, and as Sonic on stages with platforms like battlefield its annoying to use since you'll hit the platforms instead of your opponent.
3. Sonic can fish for all those big combos without putting himself at risk? No offense, but if you truly believe that, I think you should just learn the matchup better and get better in general, because hell no he can't do that without any risk. Not only does the spindash have terrible priority, but the attack itself is not safe on shield. If he continues rolling past you on the ground, you can just chase after him and punish when he has to go through the screech stop animation. If he crosses up and jumps behind or above you, almost any character can just jump out of shield and punish with Bair and Uair. Sonic being safe when approaching or fishing is almost always just an illusion, everyone of his approach options maybe hard to predict but are easy to stuff or punish if you do.

No offense dude, but I think you're just being outskilled and that you're asking for too much here. As a Sonic myself, I can tell you that you don't need patches to win against him, this character is not broken in anyway of shape or form. He's still very good, but not broken: his approach options are complete trash and while he can punish you for every mistake you make, he can only approach if you make a mistake and cannot go in directly. Its the same with , his best and only form of approach is basically pretending to approach, and I think that alone balances him and makes him hard as hell to play. This guy needs someone who van mix thins up and keep opponents guessing his next action, you can't afford to be predictable with Sonic. If you're predictable with Sonic, you can't play him well, and if you're facing a streamline Sonic, you should practically body him. The only nerf he needs, in my opinion, is just a back throw that kills like 5% later and slightly less damage from his spin dash combos, nothing else about him needs to be toned down. If they go through with it I fear that he will get more, but I really hope those are the only nerfs he gets. Sonic already a difficult character to use and his learning curve isn't NEARLY as low as people make it out to be, why make him even harder to play than he already is? Nerfing the spindash and some of that stuff you mentioned wouldn't just tone him down, it'd literally ruin him. He's not on the level of Sheik and Diddy to say the least, and I don't even find him that bad a matchup for Greninja either. Can't see it being any worse than 65:55.

 

[Coffee™]

In actually attempting to learn the Sonic vs Greninja matchup I actually am beginning to see how it really isn't all that bad. Greninja just has to play a bit differently than he's used to (a.k.a. more patient and precise than normal). Greninja is actually pretty decent at punishing Sonic's whiffed moves in general and probabaly one of the best at punishing his Spring to Dair recovery that most Sonic players tend to abuse. Idk what the ratio is but any worse than 60:40 is definitely too much.

 

[Kace Mono]

I went to a tournament and played against a really good sonic. He was alot faster than i was used to fighting but i didn't really have a problem beating him. it was just a matter of waiting him out a little.

Does greninja have any good combos out of his Dthrow? i've been experimenting and i cant really seem to do much and i have way too much trouble stool jumping them out of it.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Does greninja have any good combos out of his Dthrow? i've been experimenting and i cant really seem to do much and i have way too much trouble stool jumping them out of it.

If you can bait out an air dodge and them not jumping, dthrow into Shadow sneak

 

[Jaguar360]

Just had a great set of friendlies on Smashladder. The guy counterpicked Sheik when I switched to Greninja in the last match and it was intense, though I ended up losing. I plan to upload the matches in the near future.

 

[Ludiloco]

Hey guys, my hydro pump video made it onto reddit and is hovering between top and second page! Give it a watch and an upvote if you haven't already, if I get some publicity I plan to really try to advance our meta

http://redd.it/31ou2k

 

[FullMoon]

Hey guys, my hydro pump video made it onto reddit and is hovering between top and second page! Give it a watch and an upvote if you haven't already, if I get some publicity I plan to really try to advance our meta

http://redd.it/31ou2k

Uses Pink Greninja 0/10 would not watch again.

In all seriousness though I'm surprised that off the top kills with Hydro Pump still work, and that last clip was pretty cool with how you managed to save yourself after crashing into the wall.

 

[Ludiloco]

Aw man, pink ninja is the best. He's 100% tongue :D

And yeah it was really a beautiful accident, I didn't even think about it but now I will whenever playing a stage with walls like that. I really do need to start practicing aMSa's method of recovery though. Thanks for watching

 

[FullMoon]

Tfw I play a lot of great matches and I can't save them because I reached the replay limit.

Mewtwo, come and purge my replays because I'm too lazy to do it myself!

 

[Kevandre]

Figured I'd go to the social threads and post my silhouettes... Enjoy!



This is one that I should probably buy for myself as a shirt. I've bought Robin, Lucas and Hoenn trainer... And Greninja is one of my best in Smash 4

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I just thought of an easy fix for Ninja. Remove a lot of the endlag on Nair in the air. No more SDs from getting pushed off stage accidentally and pressing A.

I would love this.

 

[Ludiloco]

So my new wants for 1.0.6 are these:

Lag on nair (in air) reduced immensely, landing lag kept the same
Removal of wall-bounces, now cling to walls instead (Or add ability to use Hydro Pump again afterwards)
Reduced lag on shurikens
Ability to cancel Dair with Hydro Pump after you begin descending (good landing mixup)
Standing grab startup reduced by 5 frames (starts on frame 9 instead of 14)

If we even get a couple of these I think Greninja will shoot up in usage. But I think most likely we'll get one or none of them.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

So my new wants for 1.0.6 are these:

Lag on nair (in air) reduced immensely, landing lag kept the same
Removal of wall-bounces, now cling to walls instead (Or add ability to use Hydro Pump again afterwards)
Reduced lag on shurikens
Ability to cancel Dair with Hydro Pump after you begin descending (good landing mixup)
Standing grab startup reduced by 5 frames (starts on frame 9 instead of 14)

If we even get a couple of these I think Greninja will shoot up in usage. But I think most likely we'll get one or none of them.

inb4
fair knockback nerf
dash grab nerf
usmash nerf

 

[Ludiloco]

inb4
fair knockback nerf
dash grab nerf
usmash nerf

Shadow sneak when performed now prompts a large "!" icon to appear above your opponent's head as soon as you input it

Substitute's active frames reduced to 1

Hits of up air now push you away

Hydro pump windbox removed

 

[Makani]

I'm praying Greninja gets atleast ONE positive buff... Something with Substitute or NAir is what i'm hoping for the most, alternatively what Ludiloco said about Hydro pump and clinging to walls instead of bouncing off like Lucario's Extreme speed.

 

[Funkermonster]

Whatever happens to Greninja, I'm not expecting him to get nerfed again and I'm mostly confident that he won't get many, if any, changes. Not too many of the big guys besides aMsa and maybe TheReflexWonder (if he counts as a big guy anyway) are playing him and it's not like he's dominating tournaments or having so much hate surrounding him like say, Diddy. I wouldn't be surprised if his win rate isn't anything special on For Glory either, he doesn't seem all that common there in my experience at least. To tell truth, I'm too busy worrying more about what's gonna happen to my secondary, , to pay as much attention to Greninja. Considering how many people hate his guts and write him off as a braindead rushdown character with easy peasy combos, it's kind of hard not worry about him getting what's coming to him. I honestly find him one of the most perfectly balanced characters the way he already is, and something they might do to him would literally ruin him. He's certainly annoying but not broken, if people would just quit complaining about his sideb and git gud, maybe they'd see that.

As for my Greninja change wishlist: All I really want is just pre-1.0.4 shurikens, i think that's the only thing necessary and the one nerf I find totally uncalled for. Maybe slightly improved frame data and a faster substitute, but that's not as important. I also hope the following will get buffed from greatest to least:

And I dunno why, but I feel tempted to try Substitute Ambush. Even though its slow as hell, the heavy shield damage it does makes me think of trying to shield presssure afterw-....... I guess I do know why I wanna try it.

 

[FullMoon]

Is it selfish that I kinda don't want Greninja to rise in usage?

 

[Ludiloco]

I don't necessarily want him to rise in usage, I just want some respect from the meta.

I've been seeing so many negative opinions on Greninja since 1.0.4, so many people think he's a waste of time to learn and don't see how good a character he can be with the right amount of creativity. Even the top players I've talked to have said "Oh yeah I think Greninja's pretty good.. I just don't really know what he does. No one plays him."

It's crazy how much undiscovered tech there is with this character, just last night I was practicing Dair spike combos onstage (pretty safe on shield, and incredibly hard to tech. if you get one you for sure get two) and there's just so much potential with them. For example, at around 110-120 on most characters dair spike to shadow sneak is a guaranteed kill setup.

I just spent some time watching Jtails' Diddy Kong, and the amount of creativity he has used in developing that character for himself is insane. I really wish someone prevalent in the scene would pick up the Ninja and just mess around for a few hours in the lab. The skill cap and learning curve for the character is really high, which I think is the biggest reason many people are opting for easier characters like Diddy or Sheik. A really good and comprehensive Greninja video tutorial would do wonders in advancing the character.

 

[FullMoon]

At this point I don't really care what people think of Greninja. If they think he's terrible and fight me and lose, then it's all the more satisfying to me.

Greninja is fine just the way he is, he's already a super fun, very flashy, powerful, fast character who has his flaws that make him balanced. There's no need to mess with him at all anymore.

Amusingly enough I was planning to do a Greninja tutorial myself but I lack both video editing ability and a good voice.

 

[Gunla]

A lot of the Greninja stigma just comes from the "Better Nerf Greninja" joke, honestly, and the fact that he's not seen as much because of that higher curve. However, I'm one who definitely appreciates the curve, as it's rewarding nearly every time.

Personally, I don't really want any actual changes this update, as I feel Greninja is right where he should be. Yes, even with the Shurikens.

 

[Ludiloco]

The "better nerf greninja" joke is so old and unfunny now. I'm not ashamed to admit it rustles me a bit every time I hear it.

 

[FullMoon]

The "better nerf Greninja" thing was funny at first but then everybody started doing it and so they ran the joke into the trash very fast.

I also agree that I love Greninja's learning curve because it just feels so rewarding when you win.