Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Spirst]

git gud

ok

 

[Gunla]

I think my biggest problem is being too predictable. I get read constantly. The problem is, I'm not sure what I can do to vary my game.

Try learning mixups. Personally, one of my better mixups is switching up Shuriken firing; generally, I rarely charge two shurikens exactly the same before using them.

 

[Marilink]

I think my biggest problem is being too predictable. I get read constantly. The problem is, I'm not sure what I can do to vary my game.

 

[Maniclysane]

Here's what I do:

When I'm on the ledge, let's say I roll on the stage. I then decide what I'm going to do the next time on the ledge (unless some circumstance makes it a bad option) because at that point, I have a better grasp of my habits. Sometimes panic decisions lead you to the same place.

Make sure you also know all of your options at any given moment. It's hard to mix up when you only have/use two options.

Applying mixups correctly takes a long time and a lot of experience. Keep playing and don't get discouraged.

 

[KERO]

You're back earlier than I thought. You already did all the challenges/got all the trophies?

Yep. Thanksgiving Break helped a lot with that, and I feel it's a ton easier on the Wii U compared to the 3DS. It was a lot less grindy.

 

[FullMoon]

"In my experience, Greninja is a death god from the outer realms."
- Someone on TV Tropes who almost certainly is refering to me.

 

[Zalak]

"In my experience, Greninja is a death god from the outer realms."
- Someone on TV Tropes who almost certainly is refering to me.

I would totally fight you over that, but I haven't even played online yet.....

EDIT: YOU KNOW WHAT!? I'LL STILL FIGHT YOU! DO YOU WANNA GRENINJA DITTO SOMETIME!?

 

[Sneak Frog]

I've spent way too much time on secondaries since the WiiU version released that I haven't actually devoted much time to the frog. Whoops.

In the back of my head I tell myself that all the work I put into Greninja up to that point would make it okay for me to lay off him for a while, but I should probably get back to playing him now.

 

[wizardto1]

Does anyone have a good setup to get a kill? I always had such a hard time getting the killl move needed with Greninja.

 

[Marilink]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I just have practice mixing up my game.

^Dtilt is great for set-ups. D-tilt into a running Usmash works pretty well around 100%. Dash Attack > Fair is a classic one. U-tilt > Uair is also very good, or U-tilt > Bair if they DI well. If you have been going Uthrow for most of the match, you can catch them off guard with DI with a Dthrow > aerial. Also, Mindgames > Shadow Sneak is good all around.

 

[KERO]

Should be noted that even on mid-weights, Uthrow can kill at around 140-150ish if it's fresh and you're desperate for a kill. Large heavy weights should be taken care of by Utilt to Uair generally. I haven't got a clue what to do with a character like Wario or Samus, though (we don't have any good active Warios around KY)

Anyway, I've become acutely aware that landing a Uair on floaty characters is absolutely migraine inducing.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Should be noted that even on mid-weights, Uthrow can kill at around 140-150ish if it's fresh and you're desperate for a kill. Large heavy weights should be taken care of by Utilt to Uair generally. I haven't got a clue what to do with a character like Wario or Samus, though (we don't have any good active Warios around KY)

Anyway, I've become acutely aware that landing a Uair on floaty characters is absolutely migraine inducing.

Oooh. That indicates you've gone tournaments, right?

I haven't been to any yet. Maybe this summer or something.

What's it like to go to those, tourney-farers?

 

[KERO]

Actually, while I have gone to a staggering three 3DS tourneys, KY's being pretty slow when it comes to Wii U tourneys (we'll have our first one on the 13th, hosted by me actually). Anyway, tourneys are pretty damn fun, though, especially when you've been in an established scene for a couple of years. On the other hand, running one can be nightmarish at times, haha.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The main boon to fighting in person is that lag doesn't **** with you, so no cheap deaths. That is especially important for a character like Greninja that needs to be precise.

 

[Gunla]

My area is mostly 3DS tourneys (even then they are scarce); Greninja in person is definitely much better to work with than online because lag isn't messing up your inputs.

 

[KERO]

Realized why I initially stated Greninja can kill with Uthrow super early. It's because when Greninja reaches at least 125%, Uthrow becomes obscenely powerful. In fact, even at 100%, Uthrow will kill Ness at 132%. (When Greninja is at 125%, it'll kill Ness at 125%). Rage is truly a potent factor.

So, did some research, and without DI, earliest first level rage Greninja Uthrow can kill is 111% on Puff while the latest it can kill is 168% on D3.

As for second level rage, earliest it can kill is 103% on Puff while the latest it kills is 159% on D3. All tests were done on FD.

I plan to look into this a bit more, but I haven't slept for over twenty-four hours at this point, but I'll go ahead and try to research every character tomorrow or Sunday (Saturday if the tourney that may happen doesn't. Seems that Overswarm may be hosting one now).

Edit: Because I apparently willingly enjoy relinquishing any sanity I have left, I went ahead and tested out the first row of characters:

Char Level 1 Level 2 <--- (Rage)

Mario 138% 130%

Luigi 133% 125%

Peach 127% 118%

Bowser 151% 142%

Yoshi 138% 129%

Rosalina
and Luma 120% 113%

Bowser Jr. 149% 140%

Wario 143% 134%

Donkey Kong 159% 150%

Diddy Kong 139% 131%

Mr.
Game&Watch115% 108%

Little Mac 138% 130%

If someone could better format this, that would be wonderful.

 

[MartinAW4]

@ KERO
This is great information for knowing when to end the stock. It seems that knockback on Uthrow scales very fast with rage since Ness dies from a 0 rage Uthrow at 165% while at 100% rage he already dies at 132% (of course freshness helps too).
I`d just like to know what you consider lv.1 and lv.2 rage. Is it 100% and 125%?

 

[KERO]

@ KERO
This is great information for knowing when to end the stock. It seems that knockback on Uthrow scales very fast with rage since Ness dies from a 0 rage Uthrow at 165% while at 100% rage he already dies at 132% (of course freshness helps too).
I`d just like to know what you consider lv.1 and lv.2 rage. Is it 100% and 125%?

I'm honestly not sure when second level rage kicks in, but you can tell when you have it because Greninja starts having more smoke surround him. I've just been using 100% and 125% because they're two handicap options. Oddly enough, it should be noted that different characters get second level rage at different times from what I've seen, but first level rage is consistently at 100%.

Edit: Did some research. Seems that second rage level is "officially" reached at 121%, but it should be noted there's still definitely some nice knockback scaling that goes on before hand (for instance, at 120%, Greninja still killed Mac at 132%).

Second edit: There might be a third rage level between 125% and 150%. At 150%, We can kill Little Mac at 123%, 7% lower than at 125%. Not sure if it will be as relevant, but may as well test that as well. It seems that is the limit, though, as 200% doesn't bring about any notable changes from this third rage level.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly I can't help but be a bit amazed that someone is putting so much effort into a character to the point of trying to find all the instances where his up-throw can kill each character at different levels of rage. Serious Business, I guess =P

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I away make a seprecate thread to keep all of this info. It's be a shame if it got buried under all of our socializing posts.

But yeah, nice info. :0 Greninja's uthrow is above average, yes?

 

[Mocha]

Is saving a 'fresh' up-throw worth it in this game? Stale moves don't seem to be such a huge factor this time around, plus rage effect...

 

[MartinAW4]

I agree, we definitely need to put this in its own thread once it`s finished.
In the meantime I tested the kill % of Uthrow against Mario on all the legal stages with no rage or freshness bonus since it was in training mode. This could help us choose our counterpick:

Battlefield = 175% ground, 158% middle platform, 140% top platform
Final Destination = 175%
Rainbow Road = 163%
Brinstar = 161% ground, 140% right platform, 135% left platform, 117% top platform
Yoshi`s Island = 167% ground center, 164% ground edge, 144% platform
Prism Tower = 159% gound and bottom moving platform, 123% highest platform
Arena Ferox = 180% ground
Reset Bomb Forest = 176% ground, 158% lowest platform, 139% middle platform, 101% top platform
Tomodachi Life = 179% 1F, 160% 2F, 138% 3F, 113% roof top

So it seems that Prism Tower would be overall the best stage for Greninja. With 2. level rage we should be getting sub 120% kills on midweights on that stage.

@ Mocha
As far as I know, stale move negation works just like in Brawl, so it makes a pretty big difference. If a move is fresh (hasn`t been used yet, or you have used 9 different moves after last using it), it deals 105% damage. If it is used twice in a row, it only deals 90% damage and if used 9 times in a row, it only deals around 50% damage.
I verified it with Greninja`s Fsmash and here is the damage I dealt:
1. use = 14%
2. use = 13%
3. use = 12%
4. use = 11%
5. use = 10%
6. use = 9%
7. use = 9%
8. use = 8%
9. use = 8%
10. use = 7%
So I think it is definitely worth it to keep the Uthrow fresh when appraoching kill % to get the kill as soon as possible.

 

[Gunla]

Said thread has my blessing and approval.

 

[KERO]

So, been busy doing stuff today, and there's going to be a tourney tomorrow, so I'll go ahead and try to get the other characters covered tonight if I can. Anyway, the third rage level is reached at 149% for Greninja. Also, should be again noted that rage does slightly scale between the levels, but I feel establishing three baseline levels (100%, 121%, and 149%) will keep testing simpler. It does feel that the scaling gets weaker over time (there's about a 7-8% gap between each, but 100 to 121 is a little shorter of a range than 121 to 149). If someone could test the average percent scaling between 100 and 121 as well as between 121 and 149, though, that'd be great. If no one posts after this, I'll go ahead and just edit with the character table.

Also, Idk if it really warrants a thread outside the moveset thread, but if Liberation approves, we may as well go for it.

 

[Gunla]

Also, Idk if it really warrants a thread outside the moveset thread, but if Liberation approves, we may as well go for it.

I approve primarily because there's certain aspects of moves (like kill %s and very specific details) which go above and beyond the basic of the thread, which is the moveset general. The general is for general moveset discussion; if you want to go into details on specific moves, that's okay, but it's designed so it's moreso focused on knowing what all of Greninja's tools and techniques are at the basic level.

In other words, I want to promote discussion about a specific thing or aspect instead of trying to group it all into one discussion.

 

[KERO]

Ahh, I see. Very well then! Thread will come when the Uthrow tests are complete.

Anyway got the second row (and first row third levels) done. I'm not going to make a thread until every character is covered, but I want to post what I have so far if anyone wants to go ahead and test themselves (and I feel the social will reach the widest potential audience). Since I don't understand Smashboards formatting (despite being on these boards since 2008 if you look at my older, previous, wrongly named accounts), I'll just post an image. Again, these were all tested on FD with a human dummy opponent, so no DI (which isn't really that big a deal in this game) and there is a 1.05 freshness bonus on the Uthrow.

Also, I thought Duck Hunt was supposed to be a light character...? Customs were off and everything, so I don't understand where his unusual survivability comes from (I did multiple tests to ensure I wasn't accidentally pressing something with the Wii U pad).

Edit: Here's everything I have up to Shulk. Given Shulk is going to be a pain to take care of (customs and all), I think that on Sunday, I'm going to skip his arts, do the other characters first, and then come back to them.

Post-tourney edit: Got 2nd =D Although I'm really starting to feel that Greninja struggles with aerial characters, I can safely say what everyone else has been saying: Greninja's still a damn solid character. You ain't never gonna keep this glorious frog down, Sakurai B)

 

[Sync.]

Thanks for working on those up throw kill %'s definitely going to use this information. I just went to a tournament in Houston TX we had 131 entrants for singles and got 13th. SOOOO many high profile matches near the end of the tournament I'll add the results thread later so you guys can check it out if you want.

Slowly but surely, I'm starting to think Diddy isn't as bad but you have to be so strict with every opportunity you get to punish :O no banana pull goes unpunished no jump or no shield should be safe. Gotta be all over that boi

Also I think we should have a tourney results thread. I remember back in Brawl in the Olimar boards had something like that where other players post their tourney results :3

Edit: Are those kill %'s tested with DI?

 

[KERO]

Thanks for working on those up throw kill %'s definitely going to use this information. I just went to a tournament in Houston TX we had 131 entrants for singles and got 13th. SOOOO many high profile matches near the end of the tournament I'll add the results thread later so you guys can check it out if you want.

Slowly but surely, I'm starting to think Diddy isn't as bad but you have to be so strict with every opportunity you get to punish :O no banana pull goes unpunished no jump or no shield should be safe. Gotta be all over that boi

Also I think we should have a tourney results thread. I remember back in Brawl in the Olimar boards had something like that where other players post their tourney results :3

Edit: Are those kill %'s tested with DI?

Those kill percents do not include DI. I can go ahead and test with DI later, but right now I just want a baseline for a "best possible scenario" for it. I mean, realistically, our Uthrow probably won't be completely fresh by the time we want to use it as a kill move.

Also, I managed to get a horrifically early kill on a R.O.B. at the tourney I went to. Idk if it's a true combo or not, but at level 3 rage, I Uthrowed to Uaird him when he was at 65%, and it KO'd him (this was on Town and City I believe. If not, Smashville). I'll go ahead and test that as well. Edit: It may be a combo, but due to the weird nature of rage's knockback scaling, I can't quite set it up in Training Mode. Also, it was definitely 65% where this worked, so it's super situational I feel.

Anyway, here is what you guys are gonna want to see, the complete list of Uthrow rage kill percents. Do note that I will be adding Mii characters and non-rage percents to this later, but as far as every character at their regular form goes, I have it done:

Anyway, onward to Mii Fighters and Shulk's fifteen arts!

Also, thank you Sync. for the Ness advice in the MU thread. Coming off of Oli in Brawl, I have a hard time being aggressive, but I'll try and adapt! If worse comes to worse, I could always try out Rosalina as a second, as she is more my style and would be easy to pick-up in a couple weeks probably, but the frog will always be my main priority!

 

[Sync.]

Thanks for your response I'll keep all of that in mind when up throwing great list btw

And np with the MU advice anytime

 

[MartinAW4]

@ KERO
The Uthrow -> Uair is a true combo even at kill %, so your kill against ROB at 65% could have been a true combo. That just shows how influential rage and stage choice are since without rage on FD it would kill at around 100-110%.

And great job with all the testing. This will be very useful.

 

[Spirst]

So the Villager boards have found a DGCUS (Dash Grab Cancel Up Smash) which works pretty much like a DACUS but with a grab instead of a dash attack.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-grab-cancel-slide-technique-with-video.380464/

The timing seems incredibly strict but I'm wondering if this could work with Greninja as well to give us back the DACUS we never had.

 

[KERO]

Alright, here we go. The full Uthrow rage list. I'll likely go ahead and get base-Uthrow percents tomorrow, but I want to get this out now before I collapse. These were all tested on FD with no DI in regular Smash. This means there is a 1.05 freshness bonus on Uthrow. The hardest character to KO (D3) is bolded, and the easiest one to KO (Jigglypuff) is also bolded. Shulk's arts make him heavier and lighter than both these characters, so I decided to just italicize them as they are forms rather than a base state. Anyway, without further ado, here is the list:

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

Alright, here we go. The full Uthrow rage list. I'll likely go ahead and get base-Uthrow percents tomorrow, but I want to get this out now before I collapse. These were all tested on FD with no DI in regular Smash. This means there is a 1.05 freshness bonus on Uthrow. The hardest character to KO (D3) is bolded, and the easiest one to KO (Jigglypuff) is also bolded. Shulk's arts make him heavier and lighter than both these characters, so I decided to just italicize them as they are forms rather than a base state. Anyway, without further ado, here is the list:

Really useful information and what percents are the Rage Level's again?

Also anyone care doing a few matches with me, Want to get my Greninja tourney ready.

 

[Ekans647]

So I've been playing with Greninja for a while. I like playing with him, but I always seems to lose with him. I come close to winning , but never do. here are some of my problems:

Approaching: How do I approach? I try using aerial approaches with Nair & Bair but I constantly get shield grabbed by my opponent. What some ways to approach from the ground?

Water Shuriken: I like this move. I love how fast it is and it controls space very well, but are there any other uses or advanced techniques with it?

Hydro Pump: I there any uses for this move other than recovery? I've seen players push opponents away, but how viable is that? Also, how baldy was Hydro Pump nerved in the patch? Is the push-back still strong enough to warrant use?

Combos: My second biggest problem. I have trouble consistently applying pressure to the opponent and following up with attacks. What moves can combo well? Does Greninja even have a good combo game?

KO: This is by far my biggest problem with Greninja. U-Smash only KO's effectively if you connect the sweetspot, F-Smash I have trouble connecting, and his aerials are slow. Any set-ups for KO's would also be appreciated.

I love the character. I've been playing Pokémon since 2003 and water has always been my favorite type. It just that Greninja feels awkward to me and his hatboxes are weird. Thanks for all the help.

 

[KERO]

Really useful information and what percents are the Rage Level's again?

Also anyone care doing a few matches with me, Want to get my Greninja tourney ready.

Rage level 1 is reached at 100%. Rage level 2 is reached at 121% (testing was done at 125%, but knockback does not scale between 121% and 125% thankfully). Finally, rage level 3 is reached at 149%

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Christmas time is here and so are christmas avatars. ;P

 

[Gunla]

Christmas time is here and so are christmas avatars. ;P

Gotta say, yours is looking pretty good.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I guess if you're feeling festive, red, white, or green Greninja is the way to go.

I mean there is nothing else that screams Christmas like a human sized ninja frog.

 

[Ekans647]

I guess if you're feeling festive, red, white, or green Greninja is the way to go.

I mean there is nothing else that screams Christmas like a human sized ninja frog.

Can I put that in my sig?

 

[Sneak Frog]

A rather hasty job with mine, but now I have some holiday spirit in my avatar as well.