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The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

Midna In Brawl?

  • Only Midna in Brawl!

    Votes: 277 30.8%
  • Midna and Wolflink in Brawl!

    Votes: 398 44.3%
  • I don't want Midna in there, period!

    Votes: 89 9.9%
  • Just give me Wolflink sans Midna!

    Votes: 30 3.3%
  • I really couldn't care less.

    Votes: 105 11.7%

  • Total voters
    899

HiddenTiger

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Promotional? What? Are you talking about the one piece of artwork that pictured the two of them together? I fail to see how a single image merits enough evidence that a character should be included in Brawl. I could do that, to, if you like:


This is a promotional image that shows how Tingle looks in his game. According to your own logic, this means Tingle absolutely deserves a spot in Brawl, because a picture of him exists. I fail to see how pictures matter in the slightest.
 

kaid

Smash Master
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Hardly. All that art says is that, should Sakurai lose his mind and put tingle in brawl (hopefully as a sandbag replacement) then it will just be tingle, not tingle-with-balloons or whatever.

As Destruction King has stated in the other thread, Midna deserves to be in, in one form or another. Tingle does not. We are simply arguing over what form Midna should take.
 

HiddenTiger

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What of the fact that promotional materials for TP always put her on wolfback?
Irrelevant and inconsequential. Promotional images don't mean jack when it comes to deciding characters in Smash Bros. "Oh look! A promotional video for Rayman Raving Rabbids that features both Rayman and a Wii. That must mean that Rayman is going to be in Brawl because Brawl is on the Wii too, and we wouldn't want to make the trailer a liar." Yeah, no.
 

kaid

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Irrelevant and inconsequential. Promotional images don't mean jack when it comes to deciding characters in Smash Bros. "Oh look! A promotional video for Rayman Raving Rabbids that features both Rayman and a Wii. That must mean that Rayman is going to be in Brawl because Brawl is on the Wii too, and we wouldn't want to make the trailer a liar." Yeah, no.
Destruction_King put it far more eloquently than I could.

Regardless of Wolf Link, Midna's almost a shoe in for Brawl due to popular support from players, the success of Twilight Princess, and the need for new and original characters for Brawl.

The evidence for Midna is the same in both the Lone Midna and Wolf Link threads. She's a good character. She's very popular. She's original. You don't even have to assume that. It's already true.

What we're doing is getting to the nitty gritty of the Situation. The question is, once Midna is in Brawl, will she fight by herslef, or mounted on Wolf Link? The evidence we would give to Sakurai and Sora is why Midna should be in Brawl in the first place.
The promo art is simply evidence for wolflink as a probable feature of midna,
 

HiddenTiger

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Wow. Just wow. You missed my point so completely that I almost feel like you were trying to avoid it altogether. I wasn't talking about Tingle either. What I was saying is that promotional images don't mean squat when it comes to who deserves to be in Brawl, and how.
 

kaid

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If you want to debate wether Midna should be in brawl, that's something you can discuss with Destruction_King.

If you want to debate what FORM Midna would take in brawl, should she get in, promotianal materials ARE a viable source.
 

HiddenTiger

Smash Lord
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Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. You're wrong. All that images says is that Midna rides Wolf Link in Twiilight Princess. Show me a Minda/Link pic that directly refers to Smash Bros. Brawl, and then maybe I'll take you seriously.
 

HiddenTiger

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If you want to debate what FORM Midna would take in brawl, should she get in, promotianal materials ARE a viable source.
Prove it. Name one character that was put into Smash Bros. due to promotional images of their own game. Just one character, any one at all, that would have not made it in had it not been for a particular picture of them. Go ahead. I dare you.
 

HiddenTiger

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How would you describe Midna's role in Twilight Princess to someone who had never played the game?
I would say that Midna is small impish creature with magical powers who helps Link throughout the game. When Link is in his Wolf form, she rides on his back. Although, that may not be a complete statement, as I haven't actually played Twilight Princess. But, I've done the research and I definately know how Smash Bros works in terms of characters, how they are chosen and who honestly deserves it.

Just because she rides Link when he is a wolf doesn't mean she's been stapled there.
 

kaid

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If u havent played the game, then how can u judge her? how about u play it, clear the game, THEN give ur opinion?...
I would say that Midna is small impish creature with magical powers who helps Link throughout the game. When Link is in his Wolf form, she rides on his back. Although, that may not be a complete statement, as I haven't actually played Twilight Princess. But, I've done the research and I definately know how Smash Bros works in terms of characters, how they are chosen and who honestly deserves it.

Just because she rides Link when he is a wolf doesn't mean she's been stapled there.
lol... Striks posted a bit early, it seems...

So, a magical imp who rides a wolf. I could see that as a character, if it's famous enough...

(For the record, I own and have beaten TP)
 

HiddenTiger

Smash Lord
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Link is in TP costume in brawl.

Done.
That's really the one you want to go with, huh? You really want to say that Link wouldn't have made it back in Smash if it hadn't been for promotional TP artwork? Wow. You've got balls to try and pull that one off, I'll give you that. That's just stupid.

Besides, all atrociously pitiful arguments aside, Link appears in his TP design as a result of updating his character model. The same thing happened to Mario, Wario, Pit, and Fox. You didn't really expect them to keep the Ocarina of Time model forever, did you?
 

HiddenTiger

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lol... Striks posted a bit early, it seems...

So, a magical imp who rides a wolf. I could see that as a character, if it's famous enough...

(For the record, I own and have beaten TP)
No, that's not what I said. I said that she is an imp with magic powers, and that she sometimes rides on Wolf Link's back. Midna is not a character that is based around riding a wolf. There's more depth to her than just being Link's passenger.
 

kaid

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You persist in assuming Midna would not be in. So you disagree with Destructionking?


Regardless of Wolf Link, Midna's almost a shoe in for Brawl due to popular support from players, the success of Twilight Princess, and the need for new and original characters for Brawl.

The evidence for Midna is the same in both the Lone Midna and Wolf Link threads. She's a good character. She's very popular. She's original. You don't even have to assume that. It's already true.

What we're doing is getting to the nitty gritty of the Situation. The question is, once Midna is in Brawl, will she fight by herslef, or mounted on Wolf Link? The evidence we would give to Sakurai and Sora is why Midna should be in Brawl in the first place.
 

HiddenTiger

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And you persist to misinterpret eveything I say to work to your own advantage. I'm not trying to comment on whether or not Midna should be in Brawl, I'm commenting on how Midna should be in Brawl. You seem to want to think that because of a single promotional image FROM AN ENTIRELY SEPARATE GAME THAT IS NOT SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL undisputedly proves how said character will appear, act and be in Brawl, WHICH IS NOT TWILIGHT PRINCESS. Two completely unrelated and separate games, who just so happen to share a/some character(s). I suppose Mario should lose all of the fabric and denim textures that make him look nice because the promo art for Galaxy has him looking all cartoony and plasticy.
 

kaid

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Then stop asking me to prove she should be in.

TP link is in brawl, because that's how he is in TP. Midna will likely be on a wolf, because that's how SHE usually is in TP.
 

Stryks

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Yeah well peach is usually kidnapped by bowser, yet u see her fighting in melee, in ice climbers u never see popo and nana together fighting, yet there they are, just because shes used to fight with wolf link doesnt mean she can be a solo character, fighting by herself, she needed link so she could transform into TP, thats it, she can fight veyt well by herself, she took down zant, and even faced head to head vs ganondorf when he was in flame form, she has the ability to fight for herself, but when she saw link transform into wolf in the twilight realm, she figured out she was one chosen by the gods, so she helped him escape in exchange for his assitance... thats it...
 

kaid

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Note that in each of those cases, Sakurai took liberties to IMPROVE the character's variety. Taking Midna off the wolf would be REDUCING it.
 

Paranoid_Android

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Yes, I saw your moveset, but thing is this: You aren't Sakurai, nor do you work on his team. Therefore, any moveset you or any other fan-made moveset cannot be presented as viable evidence to any point.

Here's what I'm getting at: Smash Bros is by and large a physical fighting game. Special moves only really take up a very small portion of a fighters overall move list. That being said, Midna could not possibly be very physically imposing herself while riding on top of Link. In all liklihood, the player would control Link for the most part. Most of their moveset would, realistically, involve Link biting, pouncing, scratching, mauling, etc. the enemy, while Midna would just sit there until the player used one of the (in all probability) very few magical attacks that were given to them. It seems entirely likely, if not probable, that Midna would be an accessory, a gimmick to give Wolf Link, the main character, some range. Midna deserves so much more than that.

Besides, we don't need three versions of Link in Brawl anymore than we need three different Mario's or Samus'.
1: Wolf Link and Midna is NOTHING like Human Link. It's not like having a clone, therefore the "We don't need 3 Links" argument holds no water. Also, it would be 2, unless you're honestly suggesting Young Link has more rights to the game than Wolf Link.

2: As seen in about 3 example movesets, Midna has great capacity for fighting while on Wolf Link's back. Infact, she would more than likely dominate all the B attacks, most of the throws, and an equal portion of the physical attacks. Using Wolf Link, however, opens up possibilities for Midna: Whereas before, her stubby limbs may have gotten in the way and resulted in a Hand-only moveset, being mounted on Link could allow her to do more acrobatic moves - Especially while airborne.

I agree, Midna needs to be the focus of the character, but I don't think having a wolf under her takes anything away. Yeah, she might lose a generic hand swipe in favor of a bite, but she might also gain cooler moves that work in conjunction with Wolf Link.
 

Stryks

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Why would it reduce her?

...she can fight veyt well by herself, she took down zant, and even faced head to head vs ganondorf when he was in flame form, she has the ability to fight for herself, but when she saw link transform into wolf in the twilight realm, she figured out she was one chosen by the gods, so she helped him escape in exchange for his assitance... thats it...
She can fight by herself, due cmon if u add wolf link, wolf link will do most of the attacks and midna would just stay on his back, midna well hardly do anything, maybe just grab and the energy field, thats it, she deserves to be by herself and prove the power she has, she was one of the most important characters in TP, she deserves it, and also we all got mad when we saw y. link and link as separate characters, when theyre clearly the same person, the same thing with mario and dr mario, do u really want them to make the same mistake AGAIN?!
 

Stryks

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Lol he cant say anything against my post so he says something stupid, did I SAID I was Sakurai, does anywhere on my post say Im Sakurai? no? then STFU...
 

Paranoid_Android

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Why would it reduce her?



She can fight by herself, due cmon if u add wolf link, wolf link will do most of the attacks and midna would just stay on his back, midna well hardly do anything, maybe just grab and the energy field, thats it, she deserves to be by herself and prove the power she has, she was one of the most important characters in TP, she deserves it, and also we all got mad when we saw y. link and link as separate characters, when theyre clearly the same person, the same thing with mario and dr mario, do u really want them to make the same mistake AGAIN?!
That's pure speculation on your part, and not even the good kind of founded speculation.


By the way, are you drunk, by any chance? Cause that's how my friend types when he's wasted.
 

Kashakunaki

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I can't stand it anymore. You're ****ing impossible Kaid. It's called a debate. Would you like me to define it for you? You would!? Oh, that's wonderful.

Debate:
1. a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2. a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3. deliberation; consideration.

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debate

Now then, debating is one thing, argueing is another, playing devil advocate is also separate, but what you're doing doesn't even have a ****ing name. Stop playing dumb, stop playing stupid, stop playing cocky, arrogant, elitist, and know it all. Also, when debating something the object is to persuade the other side and to make them understand your reasoning. You can't be debated with because according to you everything everyone else says is wrong and that what you think must be right because how could you be wrong and how could someone think something other than what you think? At the rate this thread is going, I'm going to be bald by next week. Go to your own thread and "debate" there, Kaid. I've said it twice before, LessThanThree has also said before, and I'm sure someone else has too:

THIS THREAD ISN'T MEANT FOR ARGUEING FOR WOLF LINK + MIDNA OR AGAINST! Stop trying to turn the thread into something it isn't. Now for the love of God, be quiet.
 

kaid

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If you cannot see the line of debate I have been leading, perhapse you are the one who needs to stop playing stupid.

Nevertheless, I will not respont unless someone else reacts.
 

linkw00t

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Why would it reduce her?



She can fight by herself, due cmon if u add wolf link, wolf link will do most of the attacks and midna would just stay on his back, midna well hardly do anything, maybe just grab and the energy field, thats it, she deserves to be by herself and prove the power she has, she was one of the most important characters in TP, she deserves it, and also we all got mad when we saw y. link and link as separate characters, when theyre clearly the same person, the same thing with mario and dr mario, do u really want them to make the same mistake AGAIN?!

Seriously, the arguement where you are saying she deserves to prove the power she has, is really really stupid. Midna and Wolf Link are a team, they can't accomplish things without the other. Also, I think it would take out some of the controversy if they just had Wolf Link/Midna named Midna. That way people don't think there are so many Links? Really who the hell cares. That is a very stupid reason not to want a new creative character, notably since Wolf Link is completely different than Link. It's not event he same as YL/Link arguement.
 

HiddenTiger

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Then stop asking me to prove she should be in.
For the last time, I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO PROVE MIDNA IS IN. I'm asking you to prove that Wolf Link has to be in Brawl, which you have so far been unable to accomplish. All you've proven is that Midna and Wolf Link are teamed up in Twilight Princess. Which means less than 0 when it comes to Smash bros. Mario and Luigi were teamed up in the Mario and Luigi games (looky there! It's even named Mario and Luigi). Even better, all promo art for Mario and Luigi depicts them together. I guess both of the bros should be scrapped so they can make a Mario Bros. team, right? You phail.

1: Wolf Link and Midna is NOTHING like Human Link. It's not like having a clone, therefore the "We don't need 3 Links" argument holds no water. Also, it would be 2, unless you're honestly suggesting Young Link has more rights to the game than Wolf Link.
Quiet you. Did I ever say that he would be a clone? No. There's no way that would happen. Wolf Link is a wolf and Link Link is not. But, Link + Young Link + Wolf Link = Link x 3. It's really just simple math.

2: As seen in about 3 example movesets, Midna has great capacity for fighting while on Wolf Link's back. Infact, she would more than likely dominate all the B attacks, most of the throws, and an equal portion of the physical attacks. Using Wolf Link, however, opens up possibilities for Midna: Whereas before, her stubby limbs may have gotten in the way and resulted in a Hand-only moveset, being mounted on Link could allow her to do more acrobatic moves - Especially while airborne.
Again, You aren't Sakurai, nor do you work on his team. Therefore, any moveset you made or any other fan-made moveset cannot be presented as viable evidence to any point. I could make a moveset that has Midna riding a Lakitu's cloud and attacking with a water pistol. Does that prove that she should be like that in Brawl?
 

linkw00t

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<quote>For the last time, I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO PROVE MIDNA IS IN. I'm asking you to prove that Wolf Link has to be in Brawl, which you have so far been unable to accomplish. All you've proven is that Midna and Wolf Link are teamed up in Twilight Princess. Which means less than 0 when it comes to Smash bros. Mario and Luigi were teamed up in the Mario and Luigi games (looky there! It's even named Mario and Luigi). Even better, all promo art for Mario and Luigi depicts them together. I guess both of the bros should be scrapped so they can make a Mario Bros. team, right? You phail.

</quote>
*Tp Spoilers*

First off, does Luigi RIDE on Mario's back? You aren't using a legitiment comparison. Midna never appears without Wolf Link, and she certainly doesn't fight. She uses the Fused Shadows to turn into a huge spider but that is about it. She also hasn't starred in her own game to warrant that she be alone. Luigi and Yoshi have their own games. Midna doesn't have her own game. She doesn't deserve to be by herself. If you like Midna, cool, that doesn't mean you have to say that she should be solo to prove herself, or she should be solo because it COULD work.

Use legitiment comparisons.

And if Young Link was added, technically it would be a different Link.

As there is:

OoT Link
WW Link
TP Link
NES Link

But that's going into a timeline aspect I don't even want to mess with.
 

HiddenTiger

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*Tp Spoilers*

First off, does Luigi RIDE on Mario's back? You aren't using a legitiment comparison. Midna never appears without Wolf Link, and she certainly doesn't fight. She uses the Fused Shadows to turn into a huge spider but that is about it. She also hasn't starred in her own game to warrant that she be alone. Luigi and Yoshi have their own games. Midna doesn't have her own game. She doesn't deserve to be by herself. If you like Midna, cool, that doesn't mean you have to say that she should be solo to prove herself, or she should be solo because it COULD work.

Use legitiment comparisons.
If you had actually been bothered to read the rest of this debate, you would know that he's trying to say that Wolf Link will be in with Midna because a single promotional image for a completely different game. I was using an equally ******** argument as a counter-point. Of course they wouldn't team up Mario and Luigi because of one single picture. They don't need to do that with Midna either.

And now, I'd like to take a break from constantly having to disprove all of the terrible evidence flying at me, and say something that actually matters.

Wolf Link cannot be in Brawl, because coding in a quadropedic character would be hard enough, but adding a rider along would be nigh impossible. Think of the physics of it. How could midna stay on him all of the time, even when flying through the air, or spinning in circles after a hit? Would she get knocked off, and if so, what would happen? Which one would you control then, and how would they get back together? What about when they fall and land? If a wolf landed directly on his back like that, it'd probably break his spine. Not to mention probably crushing poor Midna in the process. It couldn't land face down, because then he'd just land on his legs and get right back into it which would be serverly broken. If Link gets attacked, does Midna take damage? Or is it like a Nana + Popo thing?

You see, for all your movesets, promotional images, and irrelevant facts about what she can and can't do in TP, it's just not possible to include a wolf for her to ride, because in all probability they would end up as a severly broken, wonky, and unplayable character.
 

Black/Light

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Wow, Im going to have some fun when I can REALLY get on the web.

^^^
1) It's not ONE art work. They are seen together in ALL artworks. Not sure if you have the game but they are even together on the first page of the booklet and inside as well. (Pointless, yes, but just wanted to point that out cause they arnt seen solo)
2) They have a WHOLE game to base her being with Wolf Link as a team character, not just "one" artwork.

Now for your "wolf Link can't be in" reasons. . .

Wolf Link cannot be in Brawl, because coding in a quadropedic character would be hard enough, but adding a rider along would be nigh impossible.
3) I would LOVE to know why. Please, tell me. Why? Because you can't think of away for it to work?
(I wouldn't have thought the IC could have worked way back in melee's release. . . but I have grown alot over that time)

Think of the physics of it. How could midna stay on him all of the time, even when flying through the air, or spinning in circles after a hit? Would she get knocked off, and if so, what would happen?
4)Have you played the game? She stays on by grabing Wolf Link's dread locks of fur. When flying in the air, as a jump, she could do what their official art shows (It looks like she is riding a bull. That could be near the end of the landing animation ) or just grab on tighter (as in, get low to Wolf Link's body like the some-what hug she does in TP for jumping ).
When falling or getting knock in the air in a spinning fall Midna could just tightly hug Wolf Link with her hands deep in his locks well pressing her head side ways along his back/ neck area to show that she is in pain (Pain expresstion on her face). She wouldn't get knocked off because she would be grabing his dreads and body TIGHTLY.

What about when they fall and land? If a wolf landed directly on his back like that, it'd probably break his spine. Not to mention probably crushing poor Midna in the process.
5) Half the stuff in melee would land the avrg human like Mario/ Link in a wheelchair for the rest of their life (at the very least) so don't say crap like that, say it would LOOK like so-and-so (which I could still bypass).
They could very well land on their side in place of their back. But even if they where to fall on their backs they could be in back posetion (As in, Wolf Link's back is on the ground whell he is in a bent pose and Midna goes alil higher up on his neck to have as lil back on ground as she can) for the slide but turn over to their side in the stop.

It couldn't land face down, because then he'd just land on his legs and get right back into it which would be serverly broken. If Link gets attacked, does Midna take damage? Or is it like a Nana + Popo thing?
6) You must not have a dog or be around them much. 4 legged beings don't always land on their feet :ohwell: . . . .They sometimes land (OMGZ!) FACE DOWN (OhhNO!). Or maybe my dads Pitt was just gooffy like that (but it still shows that not all 4 leggers land on their feet).
And Wolf Link's fall animation could be . . . like this.
Front paws, pulled up closely to the body. Shows that he COULD break the fall if he jumps before hitting the ground but if he does nothing he will slam into the ground like anything else in the game.
Back legs, fully extented as to not look like he is planing on landing well. This is pretty good seeing as it still shows that he could break the fall like other characters could or just go with it and hit the ground (like other characters do).
Head, pointed in-ward towards his body.
with all these things going on at once there would be no need for him to be able to land from a fall that other characters can't break from.
And yes, seeing as they would be a team character that works as one I would think that once one gets hit the player that controls them takes damage.
You see, for all your movesets, promotional images, and irrelevant facts about what she can and can't do in TP, it's just not possible to include a wolf for her to ride, because in all probability they would end up as a severly broken, wonky, and unplayable character.
I just showed that she CAN work on top of him and that they wouldn't be auto broken. If the divs make them flow in their animation (like other characters such as Link/ Zelda/ Fox ect) than they wont look "wonky". And unplayable? You base that on what, your poorly made arguement that they can't work?

Everything in that last quote is your OPINION based on only the lil proof you think you have.
You fail.

P.S. whats with you and other Midna solo supporters (not ALL but a good number) saying that she "deserves" to be solo? Who are you to say she deserves to be solo . . .a div of this game?
Ok, the "she deserves" game. I say that she deserves to fight on top of the beast that saved her home land, the sacred beast of legend that she waited for to help over throw the evil king. The beast she has been on for close too 100% of the game she was in.
O.K, someone else's turn. (^_^)
 

Aminar

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
336
It's very possible. Whenever Wolf Link gets in trouble, or digs under something, Midna teleports off of him, and drops back on. This isn't that hard to implement. We already have two characters thatuse4 limbs to move, DK and Bowser. The coding is difficult, but so is the coding for just about everything. Secondly, how the character appears in the game they are from is incrediby important.
The best analogy for this is a game called heroclix. It's a game with Super Hero Miniatures. Each figure represents a hero(or generic comic character, like Shield agent.) If Superman doesn't get Super STrength the figure is most likely innacurate. If hes dressed as clark kent he should have less visible powers, like a 6 range, damage reducers, and no flight.
Within TP, the game Midna would be based off, she is seen almost exclusively on Wolf Link. Her promotional artwork has her on wolf link. Wolf Link is a part of her character, no If's ands or buts about it. If she appears without wolf Link it will be against the spirit of the characterand the spirit of the game. Midna has been in one game, so she should represent her role in that game. When she does other things it's deus ex machina. IE the guys who do the plot need something to match a power the main character just cannot manage, while beng true to character.
Link couldn't Kill Zant or break the shield.
Midna could, as her powers are undefined. Even when she used them they surprised her.

Also, when soeone givesyou a stupid argument, answer with a smart counter, not more stupidity. It makes you look worse.
 
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