The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

[kaid]

During 90% of the time Midna is seen in the game, she is riding on a wolf's back.

Why would Sakurai go against it? Because it's hard? That didn't stop him from creating Zelda/shiek or the ice climbers... To judge by melee, Sakurai finds that interesting, different-playing characters are better.

 

[linkw00t]

Alright, now you're just being childish. You're over-simplifying my words to try and make me sounds stupid. I'm not talking about how Midna should look. I'm trying to show that it's unnecesary to add in something who is not only the third iteration of a character who we already have in the game, but also make the character, Midna, almost completely unnecesary.

And if you mosey on over to the 'Samus' Rivals' thread, you'll read all about how Dark Samus isn't actually Samus, and would be totally different. It's still Samus, and the Wolf is still Link.

First of all, that was directed at the person who said that the wolf should be in so that people who don't know her will learn about her. Second, no Link is not a part of Midna. They work together, but that doesn't mean that they the same person.

Again, I haven't played the game because I can't afford a Wii right now, but I realize that the two work together a lot in Twilight Princess. I fail to see how that means the same is true for Smash Bros. The Ice Climbers never work together in their game, why should they in Smash, right? I mean, the game has them split apart, so there's no way that they'd want to team them up.

I didn't mean they are actually part of each other. I mean the Midna character wouldn't be the same if Wolf Link wasn't there, she'd simply exist as Link's shadow, and that hardly justifies a character.

Midna never works alone in TP, so how can you justify her doing so in Smash Bros.? The never fights either, or throws as much as a slap. Ice Climbers worked separate right? They have all the same moves as eachother in SSBM, so I'm assuming they couldn't do different things in the NES game. All of Wolf Links abilities are complimented by Midna's, and visa versa for Midna. I'd like her in either way, but I don't see how she'd work as even a remotely interesting character otherwise. People would always think, "WTF, Why is Midna solo, didn't she always fight on top of Wolf Link?" If you even call her small array of moves fighting.

 

[kaid]

^ Thought the game was called "Ice Climbers" (plural), you only actually played Popo. Sakurai took the name of the game, which implyed 2 characters, and ADDED it to Popo's existing abilities.

Making Midna alone, however, would be TAKING AWAY existing abilities.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I don't mean to be an ***, but I really haven't seen many strong arguments for Midna being by herself. It seems like the only arguments against Midna riding Link are that it would somehow belittle Midna, and worse yet, that people think Sakurai can't overcome a programming challenge. The only arguments I've seen in favor of Midna are that she's cool and deserves her own character (at the cost of the proficiency of that character?).

Anyway, could one of you "Midna goes solo" supporters please lay out exactly why Midna should go alone? Thanks.

 

[<π]

During 90% of the time Midna is seen in the game, she is riding on a wolf's back.

Why would Sakurai go against it? Because it's hard? That didn't stop him from creating Zelda/shiek or the ice climbers... To judge by melee, Sakurai finds that interesting, different-playing characters are better.

Donn't act like you understand game programing. Ice climber and Zelda are two very different things when compared to the task of making realtwo in one character.

Ice CLimbers are two sperate characters you input something and a few frames later nana does it. Making this pair was as simple as making one.

Zelda and shiek are two completely different characters that aren't on screen at the same time, switching them out is as simple as finding thier location on screen and replacing one character modle with the other. I'm nearly postive the way the game is coded making zelda turn into mario would be as simple as changing a single value.

midnalink we are talking working literally from the ground up, making brand new tools to add one character.

Again, if he wants it done it will be done right. I in no way see how you 2 (HT/ <3) have tried to pull this argument into a "It would be VERY hard to do" debate.
You both have said that you think it could be done so that point is lame IMO.

This isn't 100% true, sometimes as a game developer you have to make comprimises, and what you want sometimes just can't be done for a number of reasons (lack of money lack of time, etc.) In fact in Melee and the original smash brother many characters that had tons of time already put into them didn't make it into the final version of the game.

 

[<π]

^ Thought the game was called "Ice Climbers" (plural), you only actually played Popo. Sakurai took the name of the game, which implyed 2 characters, and ADDED it to Popo's existing abilities.

Making Midna alone, however, would be TAKING AWAY existing abilities.

Hope this is a double post! Haven't had one of those in a while.

The point of the game is actually the the two climbers (nana and popo) play against player, one verus player two to see who can get the highest score, thats where the plural comes in. Sakurai made a big leap in having them working together, a much larger leap than having link and midna as seperate characters.
And don't talk about names of games... The game TP is named after midna and link is no where in the title.


Also both of us have said it is very possible it just more likely than not wouldn't be worth the time.

P_A can you give me some reason why midnalink should be in the game? Aside from she rides him in the game and they are inivative? You could I'm sure... they are pictures together... they are faster, etc. but they wouldn't be substatial at all, none of these reasons on either side have enough weight to discount or count midna or midnalink indefinitely so I don't know why you keep asking when you can't produce any yourself...

 

[Komayto]

Just thought I'd pop in here and say that the game actually was called "Ice Climber", not "Ice Climbers". Not that this changes anything, but I'm a nitpicker and I couldn't afford myself not to say it.

 

[kaid]

And don't talk about names of games... The game TP is named after midna and link is no where in the title.

He never is. Only Zelda 2: Adventure of Link ever tells us what his name really is. That doesnt change that midna without a wolf has less options than midna with wolf.

P_A can you give me some reason why midnalink should be in the game? Aside from she rides him in the game and they are inivative?

What reasons are you matching up to counter those two?

 

[alpha n00b]

it's pointless to request midna cause the Japanese get to choose who they want, and i guarantee they'll choose tingle over "it"

 

[HiddenTiger]

I don't mean to be an ***, but I really haven't seen many strong arguments for Midna being by herself. It seems like the only arguments against Midna riding Link are that it would somehow belittle Midna, and worse yet, that people think Sakurai can't overcome a programming challenge. The only arguments I've seen in favor of Midna are that she's cool and deserves her own character (at the cost of the proficiency of that character?).

Anyway, could one of you "Midna goes solo" supporters please lay out exactly why Midna should go alone? Thanks.

I'd quote so much more, but this guy pretty much sums up everything I wanted to get at.

First of all, all of you need to stop acting like the programming required is just 'a minor problem'. It's not. It's friggin' huge obstacle. The team at Sora would have to create a completely separate gameplay engine that works a quadropedal character into a 2D fighter, for one single character. That's like, I don't know, asking the developers of a side-scroller to code in a fully functional RPG for an optional side-mission. Sure, they could techincally do it, but the work involved would be way to much to justify the end product.

Second, you all need to shut up about how "Midna doesn't do anything without Link". If all of this is true, then why do we need Midna altogether? You keep talking about how she needs Wolf Link to attack, and how she can't fight without him, why the hell should we even include her in the first place? Let's just have Wolf Link be his own character, why not? And yes, that was all sarcasm. Very much so. In reality all this "she needs Link" argument only proves my earlier point that if they did add in Wolf Link, Midna would become nothing more than a mere decoration, while the player does everything as Link.

Third, you all need to shut up about how "Midna would suck without Link." If you really want to use that argument, then it is you who actually sucks. Brawl has not been released yet, and we do not know who is going into it. As such, you are in absolutley no position to claim how good, bad, or broken a character is or could be. That is not actual evidence, it is speculation and heresay. Stop it.

Fourth, I would just like to point out that I am not here to argue that Midna should be alone, at least not directly. I am simply trying to prove the simple truth that adding Wolf Link is a terrible idea that would require unreasonable amounts of work for what would essentially be a very very small part of the overall game.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I'd quote so much more, but this guy pretty much sums up everything I wanted to get at.

First of all, all of you need to stop acting like the programming required is just 'a minor problem'. It's not. It's friggin' huge obstacle. The team at Sora would have to create a completely separate gameplay engine that works a quadropedal character into a 2D fighter, for one single character. That's like, I don't know, asking the developers of a side-scroller to code in a fully functional RPG for an optional side-mission. Sure, they could techincally do it, but the work involved would be way to much to justify the end product.

Please explain how animating a character to be quadruped involves the same programming challenges as a new physics engine, or better yet, an RPG? It doesn't. The animations would be different. That's it.



(By the way, Pikachu and Pichu are both quadruped. How would a Wolf be any different, besides why cooler?)

Second, you all need to shut up about how

I almost stopped reading here. Immature, consider revising.

But I can't let that deter me in my quest for an answer...

"Midna doesn't do anything without Link". If all of this is true, then why do we need Midna altogether? You keep talking about how she needs Wolf Link to attack, and how she can't fight without him, why the hell should we even include her in the first place? Let's just have Wolf Link be his own character, why not? And yes, that was all sarcasm. Very much so. In reality all this "she needs Link" argument only proves my earlier point that if they did add in Wolf Link, Midna would become nothing more than a mere decoration, while the player does everything as Link.

Did I, in that past where I asked you why people like Solo Midna bring up the argument "Midna never goes it alone in TP, therefore she shouldn't be alone in Brawl". No. I didn't.

And no, a bunch of people posting on a forum about how "She needs Link" doesn't prove anything. But more to the point: Why would Sakurai or any other developer with half a brain completely ignore Midna's moveset? No one would. You're spewing illogical crap.

Third, you all need to shut up about how "Midna would suck without Link." If you really want to use that argument, then it is you who actually sucks.

Brawl has not been released yet, and we do not know who is going into it. As such, you are in absolutley no position to claim how good, bad, or broken a character is or could be. That is not actual evidence, it is speculation and heresay. Stop it.

Good characters are good for a reason. I simply looked at Solo Midna's characteristics (derived from Twilight Princess, the only place from which I could gather them), and at Midna + Link's characteristics.

I decided, through well-founded speculation, that Solo Midna would be slower because I never saw her move fast in TP, and because she would inevitably be a floater (she rarely uses her legs in TP. Why would they make her walk?). She would also be a lightweight character, and to worsen it, she'd probably be floaty (like Mewtwo), giving her not only the Mewtwo syndrome of being batted around because of floatyness, but also the downfall of being lightweight (Mewtwo is actually pretty heavy, supposedly). Her moveset would probably be full of powerful magic, but nothing can make up for ideal speed and weight.

Midna + Wolf Link, on the other hand, would more than likely be mid-weighted and fast (Wolf Link is very fast in TP, yet takes no extra fall damage coming off high jumps, meaning he's probably only slightly heavier than Human Link), meaning that it would be harder to smack the pair around. The one possible downfall of this weight, though, is that the pair may have a medium, rather than fast, jump speed. However, if Mewtwo is any indication of how a floating character would play, Midna + Wolf would still be a lot better off.

Fourth, I would just like to point out that I am not here to argue that Midna should be alone, at least not directly. I am simply trying to prove the simple truth that adding Wolf Link is a terrible idea that would require unreasonable amounts of work for what would essentially be a very very small part of the overall game.

You haven't done a good job.

 

[<π]

Please explain how animating a character to be quadruped involves the same programming challenges as a new physics engine, or better yet, an RPG? It doesn't. The animations would be different. That's it.

I know my post about the difficulties of programing two conjoined characters may have been a little tough to get through but what you are asking for is already explained there in decent detail. It isn't so much the quadruped deal as much as it is two four limbed creatures.
I'm also enjoying how every example given goes miles over your head. Let me give ya a quick definition so you understand them and can pick up on them easier.

An Example is ussually not related to directly to what it's trying to be explained, this is an atempt to distance one's self from what is hard to understand and reach a normally boarder or simple yet still relateable (Note: don't confuse this word with "related") idea. Often times an example will be pulled to one extreme or another in order to emphizies the original idea's relateable aspects.

Ignoring example's is normally a sign of lack of intelegence, it means you can't connect the dots that others around you can do easiliy. THis is not an effective counter to a point.

(Heh, 22 hours of no sleep and I still know this, come on P_A)

(By the way, Pikachu and Pichu are both quadruped. How would a Wolf be any different, besides why cooler?)

Mmm... yes and no, the two actually stand up right except when running, but I see your point. Making just wolf link wouldn't be that bad but you want wolf link and midna and as my post before said, that is where the trouble comes.

I almost stopped reading here. Immature, consider revising.

But I can't let that deter me in my quest for an answer...

Nice one... paper clip, cool.

Did I, in that past where I asked you why people like Solo Midna bring up the argument "Midna never goes it alone in TP, therefore she shouldn't be alone in Brawl". No. I didn't.

And no, a bunch of people posting on a forum about how "She needs Link" doesn't prove anything. But more to the point: Why would Sakurai or any other developer with half a brain completely ignore Midna's moveset? No one would. You're spewing illogical crap.

Woah woah woah there big guy... no one said ignore Midna. And while it would be pretty silly to have midna on his back and do nothing it would be equally silly (You know from a developers stand point) to take the weeks or months to make this one character and have the months worth of add on do some shadow shards and hair flips (Note: this is an exaduartion, you know, like the second part of the example)

cute P_A... Very grown up. (Pun)

Good characters are good for a reason. I simply looked at Solo Midna's characteristics (derived from Twilight Princess, the only place from which I could gather them), and at Midna + Link's characteristics.

heh, like no characters abilities are drved directly from thier games... but I'll let you finish.

I decided,

OMG you aren't Sakurai! (nah I'm just joking you already know that.

through well-founded speculation, that Solo Midna would be slower because I never saw her move fast in TP, and because she would inevitably be a floater (she rarely uses her legs in TP. Why would they make her walk?). She would also be a lightweight character, and to worsen it, she'd probably be floaty (like Mewtwo), giving her not only the Mewtwo syndrome of being batted around because of weight and floatyness. Her moveset would probably be full of powerful magic, but nothing can make up for ideal speed and weight.

Midna + Wolf Link, on the other hand, would more than likely be mid-weighted and fast (Wolf Link is very fast in TP, yet takes no extra fall damage coming off high jumps, meaning he's probably only slightly heavier than Human Link), meaning that it would be harder to smack the pair around. The one possible downfall of this weight, though, is that the pair may have a medium, rather than fast, jump speed. However, if Mewtwo is any indication of how a floating character would play, Midna + Wolf would still be a lot better off.

Like I was saying barely any characters behave in smash teh same way they behave in the ssb serise thus far. Mewtwo, fast as light the strongest pokemon in the world is the weakest character in the game... Gannondorf can summon balls of darkness and crazy phantom clones of himself, he can even fly! Samus like kirby can jump infinitely she can charge in the air and freezes her enimes with her beam cannon, Mario the worlds greatest jumped has mediocre hight in the game, game and watch attacks people... I mean I could seriously go on and on about how what one would find through "speculation" of game doesn't apply in smash.
You can make all the assumptions and guess you want. Even if you had ghraphs and flow charts about midna's TP stats compared to midnalink's TP stats it wouldn't mean anything when brawl comes out. If anything is fact that is.

You haven't done a good job.

Nor have you.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I know my post about the difficulties of programing two conjoined characters may have been a little tough to get through but what you are asking for is already explained there in decent detail. It isn't so much the quadruped deal as much as it is two four limbed creatures.
I'm also enjoying how every example given goes miles over your head. Let me give ya a quick definition so you understand them and can pick up on them easier.

Ok, fine. So suppose it isn't cost-effective for Sakurai to devote the time to animate a Wolf and work out all the kinks. It's irrelevant to the debate over who the better character would be: Midna or Midna + Wolf Link.

An Example is ussually not related to directly to what it's trying to be explained, this is an atempt to distance one's self from what is hard to understand and reach a normally boarder or simple yet still relateable (Note: don't confuse this word with "related") idea. Often times an example will be pulled to one extreme or another in order to emphizies the original idea's relateable aspects.


Ignoring example's is normally a sign of lack of intelegence, it means you can't connect the dots that others around you can do easiliy. THis is not an effective counter to a point.

(Heh, 22 hours of no sleep and I still know this, come on P_A)

Yawn. Are you going to put up any points for Midna Solo, or just drown any you have in sarcasm?

Woah woah woah there big guy... no one said ignore Midna. And while it would be pretty silly to have midna on his back and do nothing it would be equally silly (You know from a developers stand point) to take the weeks or months to make this one character and have the months worth of add on do some shadow shards and hair flips (Note: this is an exaduartion, you know, like the second part of the example)

So if no one's suggesting that Midna do nothing, then why do I keep reading "Midna will just be an ornament on Links back", and such? I can't really tell what you're saying towards the end (I'm not trying to be rude... you should catch some sleep), but I think it's to do with developer's time and money spent on creating characters: Again, I'd rather debate the merits of the characters and leave the economics to the devs.

Like I was saying barely any characters behave in smash teh same way they behave in the ssb serise thus far. Mewtwo, fast as light the strongest pokemon in the world is the weakest character in the game... Gannondorf can summon balls of darkness and crazy phantom clones of himself, he can even fly! Samus like kirby can jump infinitely she can charge in the air and freezes her enimes with her beam cannon, Mario the worlds greatest jumped has mediocre hight in the game, game and watch attacks people... I mean I could seriously go on and on about how what one would find through "speculation" of game doesn't apply in smash.
You can make all the assumptions and guess you want. Even if you had ghraphs and flow charts about midna's TP stats compared to midnalink's TP stats it wouldn't mean anything when brawl comes out. If anything is fact that is.

True. I can't know anything for sure, but based off of Midna's general appearance, and the way some things would almost undoubtedly function (is there any debate that she would float rather than walk?), I can make some sort of educated guess on how she would function. And based off my half-***** assumptions, I can guess that Midna would be slower and lighter than Midna + Wolf (is that a long shot?).

Nor have you.

Blasphemy! I have a crying child and that annoying microsoft paperclip in my post. That automatically ups the validity of my points.

 

[kaid]

Like I was saying barely any characters behave in smash teh same way they behave in the ssb serise thus far. Mewtwo, fast as light the strongest pokemon in the world is the weakest character in the game... Gannondorf can summon balls of darkness and crazy phantom clones of himself, he can even fly! Samus like kirby can jump infinitely she can charge in the air and freezes her enimes with her beam cannon, Mario the worlds greatest jumped has mediocre hight in the game, game and watch attacks people... I mean I could seriously go on and on about how what one would find through "speculation" of game doesn't apply in smash.

You mentioned Mario's jumping. Ever since Doki Doki panic was localized as Super Mario Bros 2, Luigi has had a higher, floatier jump than mario... and lo and behold, in smash, luigi has a higher and floatier jump than mario. Mewtwo, from his animations, isn't trying at all, and gannondorf was reduced to a clone, so we can discount him. (He wasn't supposed to be like that, but they ran out of time.) Samus's spacejump is a late game item, like giving Link the wrecking ball from the ice dungeon.

 

[virtualgamecafe]

the controls for midna probably feel stupid and be stupid its like saying a: send out bad guys to kill every body b:laugh and stun people i mean she is not a good character to have because it will be wierd and also who will want to play as a wolf? that's only my opinion

 

[HiddenTiger]

Please explain how animating a character to be quadruped involves the same programming challenges as a new physics engine, or better yet, an RPG? It doesn't. The animations would be different. That's it.

No. That's not it. They would need to completely revamp the entire attacking system to accomodate a character that always stays on 4 legs. They would need an entirely new system for his hitbox, his attack bubbles, and his stats. It's more than just animation, no matter how many times you think saying that automatically makes you right.

(By the way, Pikachu and Pichu are both quadruped. How would a Wolf be any different, besides why cooler?)

Because Pikachu and Pichu are bipeds that run on four legs. They still attack, jump and fight on two legs. Unless Link can stand on his hind Legs to fight in TP, then I fail to see how it's the same.

And no, a bunch of people posting on a forum about how "She needs Link" doesn't prove anything. But more to the point: Why would Sakurai or any other developer with half a brain completely ignore Midna's moveset? No one would. You're spewing illogical crap.

What moveset? For the last freaking time (and this goes for everybody: SUPER SMASH BROS. BRAWL AND THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS ARE NOT THE SAME GAME. You say I'm being illogical, yet you're claiming that what Link does in TP is the only stuff Midna is allowed to do in Smash. Last I checked, Smash has never, ever, ever, ever, limited itself to what is possible in it's source games. Try thinking before you enter a debate, kid. It'll save you some time.

I just love it that you call me immature and illogical, and yet you have to resort to using pictures to try and get whatever tiny, useless point you have across. Guess it just goes to show who's actually winning this debate, doesn't it?

Good characters are good for a reason. I simply looked at Solo Midna's characteristics (derived from Twilight Princess, the only place from which I could gather them), and at Midna + Link's characteristics.

I decided, through well-founded speculation, that Solo Midna would be slower because I never saw her move fast in TP, and because she would inevitably be a floater (she rarely uses her legs in TP. Why would they make her walk?). She would also be a lightweight character, and to worsen it, she'd probably be floaty (like Mewtwo), giving her not only the Mewtwo syndrome of being batted around because of floatyness, but also the downfall of being lightweight (Mewtwo is actually pretty heavy, supposedly). Her moveset would probably be full of powerful magic, but nothing can make up for ideal speed and weight.

Midna + Wolf Link, on the other hand, would more than likely be mid-weighted and fast (Wolf Link is very fast in TP, yet takes no extra fall damage coming off high jumps, meaning he's probably only slightly heavier than Human Link), meaning that it would be harder to smack the pair around. The one possible downfall of this weight, though, is that the pair may have a medium, rather than fast, jump speed. However, if Mewtwo is any indication of how a floating character would play, Midna + Wolf would still be a lot better off.

Two words: Bull. ****. Stats from the source game have never mattered, and they never will. Why the hell do you insist on staying in that tiny little world of yours where Smash and Zelda are one and the same? How about this: In pokemon, Mewtwo was the single hardest battle in the game. He was extrememly fast, extremely strong, and way overpowered. Tell me, how well did that translate into Melee? Oh, that's right: it didn't. Source game stats matter about as much to Smash as much as you or I do.

You haven't done a good job.

Why? Because you childishly ignore all of my points and counter-arguments so you can continue to live in your delusional little world where you're always right, and anybody who disagrees is just 'immature'?

 

[Junaur]

Why do I feel like I'm being ignored? My moveset accomadates both those who want midna, and those who want wolf link. Unless you guys are arguing just to see who can argue better, and will compromise later. That would be fine, I just wish you guys would confirm you saw the moveset...

 

[linkw00t]

I saw the moveset.

Seriously though, how can you say that midnalink wouldn't cool Tiger? It almost hurts me.

 

[Black/Light]

I gots very lil time till my next class so Im just going to pop in some of my thoughts. . .

1) Im tried of all this " they would have to change the fight egine to fit Wolf Link, one character, in". NO THEY WOULDN'T! Their hit box wouldn't be too different assuming that they would have the hirozontal hit box of the IC and the vurtical of maybe Mario but shorter than Fox.
Attacks? Wolf link can do more than bite, he really has some moves that arnt very different to other characters (Tail spin/ that one where he does a Pika like tail whip). And attack bubbles? Are we forgetting Midna also has attacks that she may do with her arm? The divs could just fit their move-set and stats to whats best for their character size a so on.(They don't need a whole other system )
2) TIME!?!?! Wolf Link and Midna didn't just pop out of no where. . . they have been known about for like 2-3 years. If they are going to be in Brawl I could very well see them being started on WAY back in the begining and maybe even done now.
3) The animation would be hard to pull off but it can happen. To think that they are "doomed" to look bad or take way too much time is just fool's thinking.

I will come back in a few more hours. . . I don't care about w/e misspells I have right now.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

No. That's not it. They would need to completely revamp the entire attacking system to accomodate a character that always stays on 4 legs. They would need an entirely new system for his hitbox, his attack bubbles, and his stats. It's more than just animation, no matter how many times you think saying that automatically makes you right.

Ok. Thanks for the answer. It took long enough to squeeze it out of you.

However, I'd rather focus on the characters rather than the programming challenges. As you've said (countless times), I'm not Sakurai, and can't make up the movesets or character stats. Well, you're not Sakurai either, so maybe you should leave economics to him?

What moveset? For the last freaking time (and this goes for everybody: SUPER SMASH BROS. BRAWL AND THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: TWILIGHT PRINCESS ARE NOT THE SAME GAME. You say I'm being illogical, yet you're claiming that what Link does in TP is the only stuff Midna is allowed to do in Smash. Last I checked, Smash has never, ever, ever, ever, limited itself to what is possible in it's source games. Try thinking before you enter a debate, kid. It'll save you some time.

I've found that Smash picks up the slack for characters missing movesets and then balances them rather than just making stuff up when there are already plenty of moves from the original game. Mario has fireballs, the Mario Tornado, the Superjump, and such. Link has the boomerang, the Bow and Arrows, and such. Samus has the Super-Jump (though they nerfed it for balance), the charge shot, and such. Granted, there are a hell of a lot of characters who don't really have movesets in the games from which they come. Obviously, C. Falcon's moveset is BS, and Game and Watch, and plenty of others.

(By the way someone mentioned Gannon in here earlier, and Gannon is a clone, so that argument doesn't hold up: We all know he'd be cooler with his sword and some magical projectiles)

I just love it that you call me immature and illogical, and yet you have to resort to using pictures to try and get whatever tiny, useless point you have across. Guess it just goes to show who's actually winning this debate, doesn't it?

No, it shows that I have a pretty good sense of humor. And by the way, no one's winning any debates here. Both sides have good points, and the poll is just about even. Only Sakurai wins debates.

Two words: Bull. ****. Stats from the source game have never mattered, and they never will. Why the hell do you insist on staying in that tiny little world of yours where Smash and Zelda are one and the same? How about this: In pokemon, Mewtwo was the single hardest battle in the game. He was extrememly fast, extremely strong, and way overpowered. Tell me, how well did that translate into Melee? Oh, that's right: it didn't. Source game stats matter about as much to Smash as much as you or I do.

Mewtwo's kind of a fluke. No idea why they made him suck. However, I wasn't really looking at their "Stats". I was looking at their basic characteristics to determine some broad understanding of how the two characters would play. I put two and two together: Wolf's weight + Midna's weight > Midna's weight (that's undeniable). I speculated on the speed, obviously.

Why? Because you childishly ignore all of my points and counter-arguments so you can continue to live in your delusional little world where you're always right, and anybody who disagrees is just 'immature'?

Very mature. I'm quite nearly a legal adult, so I don't know who you're calling a "Child". I certainly haven't acted like one with the exception of some silly pictures. You should get into the habit of sticking condescending subtle remarks into your arguments rather than pumping them full of direct insults, as that just makes you look immature, and does little to insult your target.

 

[<π]

(1) You don't understand object oriented game programing at all. smashes' collision system is more compicated then putting a square aound a character and calling it a day. When you first start creating any game you find the simularities of the objects you are going to have and you make a base with these simularites to work off of. In melee this base probably includes things like weight, floatiness, speed, as well as a number of hit boxes (If you can get debug mode you can see these and how they attach to a characters limbs)
This base class has all of the nessesary functions to be called in an update loop probably things like and UpB function and DownB function.
On this base you'd build what makes the character unique and over load these base's functions this makes mario's UpB change the base values different than say Samus' or Peach's.
The problem with midnalink is the base class won't work with him and midna... since you need more hit boxes to acount for midna that the base has. This means you have to either change the base and set up all of the moves that are already in place to work with this new base as well as fixing all of the breaks in the existing code (very time consuming depending on how complicated you want to get...) or find a way to keep the base and work around it by hard coding values... And then you have tons of room for potential glitches that are very dificult to find and fix.
Do you want midna and link to sepreate? If so what happens when wolf link is hit and midna isn't on him or the opposite, what happens if link is hit while midna is doing an attack... or viceversa. These are questions that the engine was ment to understand so it would take tons of time to change already existing code so that it works with other code that relies on it while still offering these new features.
And then we need new tools now, the old ones worked for normal bipedal characters, but they won't work for a mounted one. So after you get the base programing complete you need to do this.
(3)Then you have animations where two characters directly interact with one another. You need to animate all of these crazy situations. You need to have link and midna seperateing and reconnecting and make it look natural and fluent, one of the hardest things to do in animation (and thats proven by how rarely you see it even in the theaters.) And in a game where you can pause and circle the characters you can't take short the movie makers short cuts. This isn't a problem with other characters, while it may not be easy it is definitely no where near the complexity of midnalink animations.
(2) And brawl has been in the works for just a little over a year if that. The director of the game didn't know about it until after it was anounced, so yes, time. It is very possible that the team picked midnalink as thier first project to get out of the way after seeing those amazing promotional images they just knew they had to be in and went to town on the melee engine, but it's also very unlikely...

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Sounds tedious and difficult, but I still think Midna and Wolf Link would be a better character than Midna alone. Thanks for explain that, though.

 

[kaid]

...I think I have seen AR videos, where people have put, say, Mewtwo's idle animation on Game and Watch. I could see how that kind of thing could cause problems with a 4-legged character.

If that's the knind of thing HT and <3 are talking about, there are a couple workarounds the developers could use. The first that comes to mind, make the wolf's forelegs and hindlegs identical, and have the same animation for both. with duplicated hitboxes.

 

[Devastlian]

I don't know if you've ever seen a four-legged animal but their forelegs and hindlegs are built differently.

 

[kaid]

I know. The second to come to mind is to truely distort the hitbox.

Hindlegs are legs, forelegs are arms.
The entirety o the wolf, including his snout and tail, are "Torso"
The entirety of Midna, incliding her stubby hands, are "Head"

EDIT:

Or, third, they could simply use the "Winged" Hitbox Template they had to develope to acomidate Metaknight, Pit, and (probably) Ridley.
Legs are arms and legs, body is wolf, midna is head, midna's arms are wings.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Alright. Here's what I have to say now:

I'm done. Honestly, I'm tired of arguing in circles, and I'm pretty sure that most of you are too. You're not gonna change my mind, and I'm not gonna change yours. So what do you say that we all just agree to disagree, and just drop the whole pro-anti Wolf Link argument? It's going nowhere, and it's beginning to get repetitive. I'll be willing to just move on if you are.

And now, since I'm not sure where to go after that, here's a funny little picture of what Link does when he's not a wolf:

Credit to ~13W on Deviantart.com, just so nobody accuses me of stealing anything.

 

[Black/Light]

I agree with Kaid. That was my point on some other post as well.

I find Wolf Link and Midna's hit box to be (again) as long as the IC. It could work just like them if they change it so that the "leader" one was taller by a half a foot. There, the "Leader" would be the front part (Their heads) well the parner is the hind part.

And from what >3 said Im assuming that he is saying that Midna would have her whole body covered in hit boxes. Well, IMO, she wouldn't be in the posetion to be hit on say her legs, chest, any where but her head and her back. . . which is so pressed onto Link's that it makes no difference.

There,
Midna's head= the head on the character.
Wolf Link's head/ their back= the mid part/ torso of the character.
Link's legs= The character's legs.
Midna's hair hand= a sword to a sword character.
And if they can make the IC do their animation together (forgot what attack it is) Im sure they can animate wolf Link and Midna's team work.

But, like I said before, this isn't something we can really argue about seeing as it is completely up to the divs on how they do this game's fighting.

(2) And brawl has been in the works for just a little over a year if that. The director of the game didn't know about it until after it was anounced, so yes, time. It is very possible that the team picked midnalink as thier first project to get out of the way after seeing those amazing promotional images they just knew they had to be in and went to town on the melee engine, but it's also very unlikely...

According to Sarukai he has been working on this game from the time he agreed to do it in E3 05. Yeah, he did alot of planing before hand for like 2-3 months before he really got started on it so it's likely that he has been working on this game for between a year and a year and 6 months (somewhere between those).

But thats beside the point, Sarukai aint the only leader of this game. The head man of nintendo has alot of say as well so if Midna on Wolf Link is going to be in brawl than Im pretty sure Sarukai didn't have to "pick up a Midna and Link promotional image" to choose them. It's pretty much known that Sarukai can contact other divs that are doing other nintendo games to get the low down on character's. Look at Link, this is his first time showing his master sword with that glow (just like in TP) and that is his TP look, most likely he had contact with TP's divs before the trailers came out (way before).

So yeah, if Wolf Link and Midna are in this game and are SOoo hard to make than Im pretty sure the divs have already started on them (seems like it would be a big deal to get started on planing/ doing such a character when TP rep rides on them).

Wow, HT is done. . .
So you say it's "getting repetitive"? I don't see how, in the last 2+ page we have all been arguing about something new to this thread. . . which is how the divs would code them. Yeah, this is about the dumest twist to a argument on these threads that I have seen. It seemed like to me that you and >3 couldn't find anything else to bash so one of you (Im thinking/ pretty sure you) said something about how a 4 legger can't work and that it's "impossible" which is what started this ******** argument about hit-boxes, coding, animation, time for programming them, attack bubbles and all this other Bull S^^^ no one here can argue because no one here makes this game or knows just how much work they are doing and can do. This is something we shouldn't have to agrue about because it's way too fare out of either side's knowledge on how this game is being made to say anything of any use on it.

Leave that stuff up to the divs, this is suposed to be about Midna and Wolf Link Vs Midna solo and why you think which ever one is better or has the better chance along with your reasons for thinking so. . . .not " Wolf Link and Midna would be too hard to make and would need (Insert BS)". Lets all just get back on topic. . .

P.s. On a lesser note. . . I FOUND THE QUOTE where Sarukai gave his reasons for picking Zero Suit which are the only comfirmed reasons for it. . . . "I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series (Note, he never said SHE was popular, just the series). Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her."

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=smash&message.id=294854

I just felt the need to post that from w/e earlyer agrument I had about it.

And to who ever is yelling "TP aint brawl, they aint the same game and no other characters have the exact same moves in SSB as they do in their own games" or w/e BS someone was agruing I have one character for you (as of now). . . Kirby. I have just found out that almost every move he has in SSBM is in one of his mid 1990's games. We all know that they base the characters in SSB. off of what they are like in their respective games so agruing about "Samus's SupeR jUmp/ M2's suckyness and blah" is useless. (And I have already explained M2!!! Light because of floating, slow because floating aint a effective means to move and his move-set is made the way it is because he isn't a fighter like Fox. . . he is a smart, strategy character that uses his mind more that raw power so you need good mind games for him to be effective. An thats some reasons why I think Midna solo will have M2 like stats.)

 

[Konuk]

Midna is like navi, any way why would u play with her she so annoying.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Midna is like navi any way why would u play with her she so annoying......

What does that mean in English?

 

[Konuk]

Ocarina Of Time Navi the blue annoying fairy

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Midna is like navi, any way why would u play with her she so annoying.

What does that mean in English?

I think he's trying to say that Midna is annoying?

If that is the case...


HAAA!!!!!!

Best joke I've heard all week.

The only thing they have in common is that they both provide information to Link. Other than that Midna is nothing like Navi, because Midna is awsome and Navi is *beep*.

 

[kaid]

And if they can make the IC do their animation together (forgot what attack it is) Im sure they can animate wolf Link and Midna's team work.

Just something to start a conversation again, after HT and <3 left...

Why would they need Ice-climber type "cooperation" if they are "linked at the hip" as some have argued.

 

[Junaur]

Black/Light, the animation you're referring to is called squall hammer, smash B.

Anyway, I really can't figure out what's so wrong with my moveset that you guys won't consider it. It gets rid of any midna problems arrising from midna+wolf link, keeps midna and wolf link seperate, and doesn't under or overpower either one.

 

[Konuk]

I think he's trying to say that Midna is annoying?

If that is the case...


HAAA!!!!!!

Best joke I've heard all week.

The only thing they have in common is that they both provide information to Link. Other than that Midna is nothing like Navi, because Midna is awsome and Navi is *beep*.

i bet u that they will do more annoying parodies of her than navi. Still dont like any of them. Besides you only like her cuase she "a Dark Character" if she was all goody twoshoes she'd be another Navi

 

[Komayto]

i bet u that they will do more annoying parodies of her than navi. Still dont like any of them. Besides you only like her cuase she "a Dark Character" if she was all goody twoshoes she'd be another Navi

...

*blink*

...have you played the game? I'm curious. If you indeed have played it and have gotten far enough then you'd understand that she's way more than just a "dark character". She's FAR from being another Navi.

If you have and still think she is like Navi, then whatever, it's your opinion, but I still don't agree with you.

And more parodies? I'm sure that the classic "Hey! Listen!" will always be made fun of more than Midna's cackle. She does yawn and laugh a lot, but Navi was just so...Navi.
Heh, so I guess I'll take that bet you offered.

 

[linkw00t]

I liked Navi...I was really upset that Link never found her.

Midna pwns her though for real, nothing like Midna's anime style grimace at the end of TP, now that is character.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

I liked Navi...I was really upset that Link never found her.

Midna pwns her though for real, nothing like Midna's anime style grimace at the end of TP, now that is character.

You mean the one she made when she was telling Link about how

Spoiler

she got changed into her Imp form by Zant and started planning how to take her kingdom back?

I was actually freaked out by that one... But, it shows you the true extent of how incrdible the character depth was in the game. You could see the emotion on Midna's face everytime she expressed it.

My favorite would have to be

Spoiler

when you first get the Shadow Crystal. The little wicked smile she made when she decided to keep it was priceless.

 

[HiddenTiger]

I agree with Kaid. That was my point on some other post as well.

I find Wolf Link and Midna's hit box to be (again) as long as the IC. It could work just like them if they change it so that the "leader" one was taller by a half a foot. There, the "Leader" would be the front part (Their heads) well the parner is the hind part.

And from what >3 said Im assuming that he is saying that Midna would have her whole body covered in hit boxes. Well, IMO, she wouldn't be in the posetion to be hit on say her legs, chest, any where but her head and her back. . . which is so pressed onto Link's that it makes no difference.

There,
Midna's head= the head on the character.
Wolf Link's head/ their back= the mid part/ torso of the character.
Link's legs= The character's legs.
Midna's hair hand= a sword to a sword character.
And if they can make the IC do their animation together (forgot what attack it is) Im sure they can animate wolf Link and Midna's team work.

But, like I said before, this isn't something we can really argue about seeing as it is completely up to the divs on how they do this game's fighting.

According to Sarukai he has been working on this game from the time he agreed to do it in E3 05. Yeah, he did alot of planing before hand for like 2-3 months before he really got started on it so it's likely that he has been working on this game for between a year and a year and 6 months (somewhere between those).

But thats beside the point, Sarukai aint the only leader of this game. The head man of nintendo has alot of say as well so if Midna on Wolf Link is going to be in brawl than Im pretty sure Sarukai didn't have to "pick up a Midna and Link promotional image" to choose them. It's pretty much known that Sarukai can contact other divs that are doing other nintendo games to get the low down on character's. Look at Link, this is his first time showing his master sword with that glow (just like in TP) and that is his TP look, most likely he had contact with TP's divs before the trailers came out (way before).

So yeah, if Wolf Link and Midna are in this game and are SOoo hard to make than Im pretty sure the divs have already started on them (seems like it would be a big deal to get started on planing/ doing such a character when TP rep rides on them).

Wow, HT is done. . .
So you say it's "getting repetitive"? I don't see how, in the last 2+ page we have all been arguing about something new to this thread. . . which is how the divs would code them. Yeah, this is about the dumest twist to a argument on these threads that I have seen. It seemed like to me that you and >3 couldn't find anything else to bash so one of you (Im thinking/ pretty sure you) said something about how a 4 legger can't work and that it's "impossible" which is what started this ******** argument about hit-boxes, coding, animation, time for programming them, attack bubbles and all this other Bull S^^^ no one here can argue because no one here makes this game or knows just how much work they are doing and can do. This is something we shouldn't have to agrue about because it's way too fare out of either side's knowledge on how this game is being made to say anything of any use on it.

Leave that stuff up to the divs, this is suposed to be about Midna and Wolf Link Vs Midna solo and why you think which ever one is better or has the better chance along with your reasons for thinking so. . . .not " Wolf Link and Midna would be too hard to make and would need (Insert BS)". Lets all just get back on topic. . .

P.s. On a lesser note. . . I FOUND THE QUOTE where Sarukai gave his reasons for picking Zero Suit which are the only comfirmed reasons for it. . . . "I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series (Note, he never said SHE was popular, just the series). Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her."

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/board/message?board.id=smash&message.id=294854

I just felt the need to post that from w/e earlyer agrument I had about it.

And to who ever is yelling "TP aint brawl, they aint the same game and no other characters have the exact same moves in SSB as they do in their own games" or w/e BS someone was agruing I have one character for you (as of now). . . Kirby. I have just found out that almost every move he has in SSBM is in one of his mid 1990's games. We all know that they base the characters in SSB. off of what they are like in their respective games so agruing about "Samus's SupeR jUmp/ M2's suckyness and blah" is useless. (And I have already explained M2!!! Light because of floating, slow because floating aint a effective means to move and his move-set is made the way it is because he isn't a fighter like Fox. . . he is a smart, strategy character that uses his mind more that raw power so you need good mind games for him to be effective. An thats some reasons why I think Midna solo will have M2 like stats.)

This is what I get for trying to make peace? Yeesh. You must just like to argue, huh?

 

[<π]

And from what >3 said Im assuming that he is saying that Midna would have her whole body covered in hit boxes. Well, IMO, she wouldn't be in the posetion to be hit on say her legs, chest, any where but her head and her back. . . which is so pressed onto Link's that it makes no difference.

Yeah... you assumed wrong... If at anytime we want midna leaving wolf link for good collision we'd need to have a hit box for each limb. Also attacks where she gestrues with her hands, etc. would be reason to give her her own hit boxes.

There,
Midna's head= the head on the character.
Wolf Link's head/ their back= the mid part/ torso of the character.
Link's legs= The character's legs.
Midna's hair hand= a sword to a sword character.

This isn't connect the lazy dots. Mixing and matching hit boxes would end up being just as difficult on the tools prograners and people using those tools. Also this would be the worst way to solve the problem and would probablly cause more issues than it would fix.

I don't know if you noticed but you can only hit the sword of a characer when they attack. thats called an attack hit box.

And if they can make the IC do their animation together (forgot what attack it is) Im sure they can animate wolf Link and Midna's team work.

Yeah... squall hammer, that move was as simple as putting to squall hammer animations side by side. Nothing as complex as one character riding another.

But, like I said before, this isn't something we can really argue about seeing as it is completely up to the divs on how they do this game's fighting.

Translation: Man... I have no idea what I'm talking about. Maybe this will serve as a good excuse though.

According to Sarukai he has been working on this game from the time he agreed to do it in E3 05. Yeah, he did alot of planing before hand for like 2-3 months before he really got started on it so it's likely that he has been working on this game for between a year and a year and 6 months (somewhere between those).

And that is why they decided to use the melee engine as a base because a year or a year and six months is nothing. If it weren't for that we wouldn't have scene a trailler yet. (trust me, I know what I'm talking about)

But thats beside the point, Sarukai aint the only leader of this game. The head man of nintendo has alot of say as well so if Midna on Wolf Link is going to be in brawl than Im pretty sure Sarukai didn't have to "pick up a Midna and Link promotional image" to choose them.

Sorry but this argument is silly. The "Head man of nintendo" understand better than most what comprimise in a game means, if sakurai tells him it'd be difficult to introduce midnalink and he doesn see it as worth the effort, he'd understand.

It's pretty much known that Sarukai can contact other divs that are doing other nintendo games to get the low down on character's. Look at Link, this is his first time showing his master sword with that glow (just like in TP) and that is his TP look, most likely he had contact with TP's divs before the trailers came out (way before).

And now the mad search for evidence begins. I don't see how this at all pertains to your argument. Of course he is talking to other directors and creators, but this doesn't mean he is tied down to the way they design thier characters, looks at fox and Pit and wario.

So yeah, if Wolf Link and Midna are in this game and are SOoo hard to make than Im pretty sure the divs have already started on them (seems like it would be a big deal to get started on planing/ doing such a character when TP rep rides on them).

Or, they could have just decided not to do them. Midnalink doesn't need to be in the game.

Wow, HT is done. . .
So you say it's "getting repetitive"? I don't see how, in the last 2+ page we have all been arguing about something new to this thread. . . which is how the divs would code them. Yeah, this is about the dumest twist to a argument on these threads that I have seen. It seemed like to me that you and >3 couldn't find anything else to bash so one of you (Im thinking/ pretty sure you) said something about how a 4 legger can't work and that it's "impossible" which is what started this ******** argument about hit-boxes, coding, animation, time for programming them, attack bubbles and all this other Bull S^^^ no one here can argue because no one here makes this game or knows just how much work they are doing and can do. This is something we shouldn't have to agrue about because it's way too fare out of either side's knowledge on how this game is being made to say anything of any use on it.

-___-
I'm at a loss for words. Oh wait, here go a few more. It's like you didn't read anything I posted at all. It is very possible to create midna link HT and I both have said this several times each. On that same note we aren't bashing anything, we are telling you information that apparently you don't want to concider and can't counter.
Now I'm not sure of HT's programing knowledge, but I have this stuff, game programing spesifacally, drilled into my head everyday. I have a deep understanding of it. When you debate you don't dismiss information because you don't understand it. you reseach it. What you are doing is making guess based off of guesses. That is not a very effective way to win an argument.

Leave that stuff up to the divs, this is suposed to be about Midna and Wolf Link Vs Midna solo and why you think which ever one is better or has the better chance along with your reasons for thinking so. . . .not " Wolf Link and Midna would be too hard to make and would need (Insert BS)". Lets all just get back on topic. . .

Oh, well that changes everything. (heh, I'm so clever, that was obviously sarcasm becaues it doesn't)

P.s. On a lesser note. . . I FOUND THE QUOTE where Sarukai gave his reasons for picking Zero Suit which are the only comfirmed reasons for it. . . . "I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series (Note, he never said SHE was popular, just the series). Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her."

I bet you can't find any quote saying he put mario in the game because he is popular either. Just because he didn't say it doesn't mean it isn't true.

And to who ever is yelling "TP aint brawl, they aint the same game and no other characters have the exact same moves in SSB as they do in their own games" or w/e BS someone was agruing I have one character for you (as of now). . . Kirby. I have just found out that almost every move he has in SSBM is in one of his mid 1990's games. We all know that they base the characters in SSB. off of what they are like in their respective games so agruing about "Samus's SupeR jUmp/ M2's suckyness and blah" is useless. (And I have already explained M2!!! Light because of floating, slow because floating aint a effective means to move and his move-set is made the way it is because he isn't a fighter like Fox. . . he is a smart, strategy character that uses his mind more that raw power so you need good mind games for him to be effective. An thats some reasons why I think Midna solo will have M2 like stats.)

You are missing the point here Black/Light, even counting kirby no character in brawl has a moveset derived completely from thier games (or apperances in general) But thats not the point, point is characters aren't bound to the game by how they have been portrayed earlier.

Just something to start a conversation again, after HT said he was leaving...

Fixed.

 

[HiddenTiger]

*sigh* Can't we all just get along? Why can't we just all agree that we want Midna in Brawl, and stop worrying so much about how she gets in? We don't need to keep arguing like this. Here:



Funny comic to stop all the arguing. Laugh!