The Original Midna for Brawl thread. (Debate the Wolf here!)

[Malecden]

OMG! Shut up all of you shut up! If you want to go argue your little brains out about Midna be my guest, but DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! I'm sick of seing this arguement just stretch on and on and on. Go away and leave this poor, abused thread in peace! Gaaaah!

 

[kaid]

I believe that counts as a reaction...

Why is it that wolf supporters are the first to resort to a search for evidence, while midna "purists" are the first to use hyperbole and self-referencing arguments?

And why do the purists hate to discuss their views so much, they make their own thread and declare it "off limits" to discussion.

 

[Malecden]

I believe that counts as a reaction...

You talking about me? I don't care. These people are being complete idiots and won't even listen to reason and take the argument where it belongs. Now drop it.

 

[Dotcom]

Monotonous

 

[Paranoid_Android]

OMG! Shut up all of you shut up! If you want to go argue your little brains out about Midna be my guest, but DO IT SOMEWHERE ELSE! I'm sick of seing this arguement just stretch on and on and on. Go away and leave this poor, abused thread in peace! Gaaaah!

Yes, god forbid we have intelligent debate on the merits of the two characters rather than bicker about it like idiots.

Speaking of which, why don't politicians put up laws and declare them off limits?


And finally, what would this thread be without the arguments? Something like this:

"Hmm... I really like Midna"
"I agree... Without Wolf Link, of course"
"Oh yes, I agree completely"
"Oh, how necessary this thread where we all agree with each other is"


... of course, trusting forum inhabitants, you'd find something to argue about - Like a moveset, or some minor detail, or whether she should transform into... Well, I don't feel like using spoiler tags, so I'll leave that out.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

If you had actually been bothered to read the rest of this debate, you would know that he's trying to say that Wolf Link will be in with Midna because a single promotional image for a completely different game. I was using an equally ******** argument as a counter-point. Of course they wouldn't team up Mario and Luigi because of one single picture. They don't need to do that with Midna either.

And now, I'd like to take a break from constantly having to disprove all of the terrible evidence flying at me, and say something that actually matters.

Wolf Link cannot be in Brawl, because coding in a quadropedic character would be hard enough, but adding a rider along would be nigh impossible. Think of the physics of it. How could midna stay on him all of the time, even when flying through the air, or spinning in circles after a hit? Would she get knocked off, and if so, what would happen? Which one would you control then, and how would they get back together? What about when they fall and land? If a wolf landed directly on his back like that, it'd probably break his spine. Not to mention probably crushing poor Midna in the process. It couldn't land face down, because then he'd just land on his legs and get right back into it which would be serverly broken. If Link gets attacked, does Midna take damage? Or is it like a Nana + Popo thing?

You see, for all your movesets, promotional images, and irrelevant facts about what she can and can't do in TP, it's just not possible to include a wolf for her to ride, because in all probability they would end up as a severly broken, wonky, and unplayable character.

Midna would sit on Links back. During normal combat, she wouldn't have any trouble staying on. If Link dashed, she would probably grab hold of his fury - like when you dash suddenly on the game. If Link got hit, she would probably hold on by putting her arms around Wolf's neck. While in the air, she would more than likely hold onto his fur, also, even though unless there's some sudden movement, there's no reason why she should lose her balance. It's really viable. The worst thing you could do, though, is make it a Nana + Popo thing. Having a sucky computer on your team? I'll pass. As for landing after tumbling in the air, I suppose Midna could take a hit to the back - Wolves aren't exactly heavy. Besides... It's a game. For teching, Wolf would probably roll over.... over Midna as well. Sounds like Midna's getting the short stick, but it would look pretty cool, if you ask me. If you aren't convinced Midna's not getting screwed by her accomplice, I hope I've convinced you the character would work.



... Or you could simply avoid all of that crap and have Midna turn into her shadowy hiding form during those situations. (clearly the better solution).

 

[Komayto]

Mm, I see what you mean by that, P_A. But still, this is often more like "senseless arguing just for the heck of it" than an intelligent debate. I'm alright with a nice debate, but this is going absolutely nowhere and I'm kind of disappointed in myself for even saying anything on the subject.

Erm, Kaid... Generalization, yay?

 

[Skler]

"Hmm... I really like Midna"
"I agree... Without Wolf Link, of course"
"Oh yes, I agree completely"
"Oh, how necessary this thread where we all agree with each other is"

This reminds me, I really like Midna.

 

[Skler]

When Midna is hit it makes little sense for her to hang on to wolf Link. Say she gets hit by one of those nasty Marth nairs (assuming Marth is in brawl and has his nair), her and wolf Link both go flying backwards? The little imp can't possibly carry the wolf backwards, but smash isn't really a game to care about details like that (although it would look pretty messed up).

The up+B would be ineteresting to see if they are going to go with the move where Midna goes to a place and then wolf Link jumps after her. What if Link is hit during his jump?

Aminar, wolf Link is not a part of Midna and Midna is not a part of wolf Link.

Black Light, the majority of the game she is not on wolf Link, the majority of the game she is the shadow of Link in his human form

 

[Bowserlick]

When Midna is hit it makes little sense for her to hang on to wolf Link. Say she gets hit by one of those nasty Marth nairs (assuming Marth is in brawl and has his nair), her and wolf Link both go flying backwards? The little imp can't possibly carry the wolf backwards, but smash isn't really a game to care about details like that (although it would look pretty messed up).

It would look about as messed up as Jigglypuff grabbing Bowser and with ease, tossing him up or suplexing him behind her. Midna trusts Link. Hanging on when she gets hit off her mount is natural. If you were hit while on a horse, wouldn't you try holding onto the neck so you wouldn't stumble off and possibly break something. Plus if Midna did get hit, Wolf Link should go in the same direction (although it could be designed so only a percentage gets tacked on and not any knockback). If someone is clinging to your neck tightly and that person is pushed, no matter how much you weight your balance will be thrown off unless you can counterbalance that weight with equal mass moving forward. Not that Smash cares for physics, but it happens in real life.

The up+B would be ineteresting to see if they are going to go with the move where Midna goes to a place and then wolf Link jumps after her. What if Link is hit during his jump?

She can teleport right back onto him. Although I personally would pick a different Up B.

Aminar, wolf Link is not a part of Midna and Midna is not a part of wolf Link.

They could still share a percentage. Or maybe percentage would be tacked on only if Wolf Link was hit. And if Midna is hit both the characters travel a set distance with no percentage tacked on. Many ways to get around problems. The real question is if Sakurai will put the time into doing this.

Black Light, the majority of the game she is not on wolf Link, the majority of the game she is the shadow of Link in his human form

These are my opinions on the matter. Although just for the record I could see Midna working alone as well.

 

[kaid]

Erm, Kaid... Generalization, yay?

Guilty as charged.

 

[kaid]

The up+B would be ineteresting to see if they are going to go with the move where Midna goes to a place and then wolf Link jumps after her. What if Link is hit during his jump?

That actually happens in TP, particularly around the Goron area. Midna teleports back to the wolf's back.

Aminar, wolf Link is not a part of Midna and Midna is not a part of wolf Link.

If Banjo and Kazooie was in the game, would you say they were part of each other?

Black Light, the majority of the game she is not on wolf Link, the majority of the game she is the shadow of Link in his human form

Alright, the majority of the time she MATERIALIZES, she is on the wolf's back.

 

[Skler]

I wasn't arguing that they should share the same % (that would make a lot of sense, if they were added, to make them just one character). Aminar had said wolf Link is "part of Midna's character". That is what I meant by saying Midna is not part of wolf Link and vice versa.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

When Midna is hit it makes little sense for her to hang on to wolf Link. Say she gets hit by one of those nasty Marth nairs (assuming Marth is in brawl and has his nair), her and wolf Link both go flying backwards? The little imp can't possibly carry the wolf backwards, but smash isn't really a game to care about details like that (although it would look pretty messed up).

The up+B would be ineteresting to see if they are going to go with the move where Midna goes to a place and then wolf Link jumps after her. What if Link is hit during his jump?

Aminar, wolf Link is not a part of Midna and Midna is not a part of wolf Link.

Black Light, the majority of the game she is not on wolf Link, the majority of the game she is the shadow of Link in his human form

I see what you mean: If Link got hit, it wouldn't be any problem to make Midna disappear into his shadow, but when Midna gets hit (from above, for instance), it might look weird. Sakurai could definitely figure something out, though.

As for the up+B, I thought it would be cooler if they were to warp. Like in TP, Link would turn into black specs (which would cause damage, hopefully), and Midna would fly imbetween them. Midna would probably be hitable during this, although the particles should add protection from weak attacks.
Then again, the Midna-directed jump would call for the Midna giggle, and that might be too **** funny to pass up.

 

[Aminar]

No they aren't "part of each other"
They are important to the character of the other. Midna fighting alone would be counter to how she fights within her game, and thus innacurate.
I'm going to use another comic book example.
Ghost rider without his bike is stupid(and i know it's happened), but it's counter to what makes his character cool. Midna is not nearly as cool in combat without her mount. I adore Midna as a character. She's on my list of favorite characters ever, along with Matrim cauthon, and Boba fett(from the books he appears in). I'd much prefer they call the character Midna, and just have her riding Wolf Link. When i was in wolf mode on TP i felt I was playing as Midna. Having her without Wolf Link is counter to her character. Wolf Link is part of her character.

I want the Midna Giggle in the game, it mad me happy. I would happily lose while UpB spamming with her, just to here that giggle.

Also, it is my viewpoint of the character. Some people have the viewpoint Link and Midna fell in love during the story too. It's not something functionally debatable, but based on perception of the game.

 

[HiddenTiger]

^^^
1) It's not ONE art work. They are seen together in ALL artworks. Not sure if you have the game but they are even together on the first page of the booklet and inside as well. (Pointless, yes, but just wanted to point that out cause they arnt seen solo)

I really can' think of any other ways to say this, as I've had to say it so much: SO FREAKIN' WHAT? Who gives a rat's *** if the TP artwork put them together. I'm not sure you realize this, but Twilight Princess and Smash Bros Brawl aren't the same game. Sorry to ruin the surprise for you.

2) They have a WHOLE game to base her being with Wolf Link as a team character, not just "one" artwork.

And Mario and Luigi have two whole games dedicated to them working together. Should they be teamed up?

3) I would LOVE to know why. Please, tell me. Why? Because you can't think of away for it to work?

Yeah, every freakin' thing I worte after that one part, that you so convieniently ignored.

4)Have you played the game? She stays on by grabing Wolf Link's dread locks of fur. When flying in the air, as a jump, she could do what their official art shows (It looks like she is riding a bull. That could be near the end of the landing animation ) or just grab on tighter (as in, get low to Wolf Link's body like the some-what hug she does in TP for jumping ).
When falling or getting knock in the air in a spinning fall Midna could just tightly hug Wolf Link with her hands deep in his locks well pressing her head side ways along his back/ neck area to show that she is in pain (Pain expresstion on her face). She wouldn't get knocked off because she would be grabing his dreads and body TIGHTLY.

To be fair, I haven't played the game yet, and I didn't realize this part. Point acknowledged.

5) Half the stuff in melee would land the avrg human like Mario/ Link in a wheelchair for the rest of their life (at the very least) so don't say crap like that, say it would LOOK like so-and-so (which I could still bypass).
They could very well land on their side in place of their back. But even if they where to fall on their backs they could be in back posetion (As in, Wolf Link's back is on the ground whell he is in a bent pose and Midna goes alil higher up on his neck to have as lil back on ground as she can) for the slide but turn over to their side in the stop.

Now this argument is beginning to tick me off. Stop hiding behind Smash's loose grasp on the laws of physics. No matter how unrealistic it gets, there is still a limit to how much they can actually do. Wolves can't land on their backs or do most of the stuff that character do in Smash, irregardless of whether or not a sword draws blood in the game. This point is moot.

6) You must not have a dog or be around them much. 4 legged beings don't always land on their feet . . . .They sometimes land (OMGZ!) FACE DOWN (OhhNO!). Or maybe my dads Pitt was just gooffy like that (but it still shows that not all 4 leggers land on their feet).

Yet another person zooms right past my point so they can think that they're right. In Smash Bros., characters can fall face up or face down when they land on the ground. As a wolf, especially with a rider, that would unbelieveably awkward to animate without breaking either the characters playablity, or the animation itself..

And Wolf Link's fall animation could be . . . like this.
Front paws, pulled up closely to the body. Shows that he COULD break the fall if he jumps before hitting the ground but if he does nothing he will slam into the ground like anything else in the game.
Back legs, fully extented as to not look like he is planing on landing well. This is pretty good seeing as it still shows that he could break the fall like other characters could or just go with it and hit the ground (like other characters do).
Head, pointed in-ward towards his body.
with all these things going on at once there would be no need for him to be able to land from a fall that other characters can't break from.
And yes, seeing as they would be a team character that works as one I would think that once one gets hit the player that controls them takes damage.

Sure. Fine, it could work like that. That doesn't mean that it will. Unless you happen to be working on the game right now, I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to use "but it could totally work liek this!!" as legitimate proof.

I just showed that she CAN work on top of him and that they wouldn't be auto broken. If the divs make them flow in their animation (like other characters such as Link/ Zelda/ Fox ect) than they wont look "wonky". And unplayable? You base that on what, your poorly made arguement that they can't work?

Shut it. Don't get so full of yourself, there. All you, or anybody else who thinks that adding Wolf Link is a good idea has done so far is prove that it is techincally possible that they could make Midna ride on Link. None of you have actually given a reason as to why we need another Link in Brawl, when we could have an equally important and loads more unique character.

 

[kaid]

^as for your last point... don't think of him as link. Midna would happen to have a trained wolf. You would have to know the game to know it's link.

We have proven that it is technically feasable, AND it is the image of the character nintendo has tried to project. Newsflash! Smash Bros is a Nintendo game!

You asked what character would have not been in without promotion? Pikachu. Without his status as mascot of the Pokemon franchise, he's just yet-another random battle monster, and one with a monotonis moveset, too. THere were better choices.

But because this game is nintendo's all stars, they took the FACE of the pokemon franchise, and put it in smash 64.

The wolf is the face of Twilight Princess. When you first heard of TP, it was "Link turns into a wolf!" It's on the front cover, it's in the opening sequence, and it's in all the official Midna art..Adding Midna is a wave to the fanbase, but adding the wolf is the link back to the greatest game ever made.

 

[Aminar]

Hidden tiger. Game programmers can do just about anything, and ignore any laws of physis they want. Remember these are all little toys, they are indestructable.

We don't need a new Link, we need Midna. Midna without Wolf Link isn't Midna as portrayed within her game.

On the mario Brothers Argument. There are lots of Mario brothers game where they work seperate, many more than the two where they work together. 100% of Midn's 1 games have her riding wolf link 100% of the time she is an active participent in gameplay.

Lastly, the official Artwork matters more than gameplay itself, as that is how people who haven't played the game view the character. Most people don't have the time to play all the games smash characters are taken from. Ive played 1 Mario Game, 6-7 Zelda games, 2 Donkey Kong games, 1 Metroid Game, 2 F-Zero games,3 Fire Emblem Games, and 2 Pokemon games. This doesn't cover nearly enough games to show the true character of each and every character in smash.

 

[Komayto]

So now this debate is in both threads at once? Heh.

Well, I don't feel like arguing right now so I'll just ask one thing.
What exactly do you mean by "official art of Midna?"

The only pictures I've seen that could be considered to be official art of her are this one and this one.

And I don't really think either one counts as simply official art of Midna, because the first one's purpose is more to show people what Wolf Link looks like than to show Midna. It's arguable, though, but I think it makes sense.
And the second one is just concept art of her and putting Wolf Link in that picture would have been really dumb.

So, uh, don't misunderstand me, I'm not really trying to say anything here, but saying that she is on Link's back in every piece of official art of her there is doesn't really mean much as there isn't much art of her anyways.

 

[Aminar]

Almost all the trailers and screenshots also had her on wolf link when they showed her. It took me forever to find any good pictures of just her that weren't fanart.

 

[Kokichi]

Combined the two Midna threads, added a poll. Cheers, chi.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Hidden tiger. Game programmers can do just about anything, and ignore any laws of physis they want. Remember these are all little toys, they are indestructable.

Yes, I understand that they can do whatever they want, but you as the gamer don't realize how mind-bogglingly complex it is. I do. I spent my junior and senior years in high school studying 3D modeling and video game design, so I know what I'm talking about when I talk about coding and game designing. All of you people can keep saying "They could just code it in", but not a single one of you actually realize how much coding is actually required.

We don't need a new Link, we need Midna. Midna without Wolf Link isn't Midna as portrayed within her game.

So? Tag-teamed isn't how Nana and Popo are portrayed in their game. Pit isn't portrayed with a separable bow in his game. Captain Falcon isn't pictured not racing in his games. Since when has Brawl been chained to it's source material so?

On the mario Brothers Argument. There are lots of Mario brothers game where they work seperate, many more than the two where they work together. 100% of Midn's 1 games have her riding wolf link 100% of the time she is an active participent in gameplay.

Mario and Luigi have been teamed up in more games than Midna and Link. My point is that just because a character is paired up with another doesn't mean that those two characters are joined at the hip (Yes, I'm aware that can be taken much more literally in this situation. Don't point it out)

Lastly, the official Artwork matters more than gameplay itself, as that is how people who haven't played the game view the character. Most people don't have the time to play all the games smash characters are taken from. Ive played 1 Mario Game, 6-7 Zelda games, 2 Donkey Kong games, 1 Metroid Game, 2 F-Zero games,3 Fire Emblem Games, and 2 Pokemon games. This doesn't cover nearly enough games to show the true character of each and every character in smash.

Fine, except for one thing: Smash isn't meant to cater to those who haven't played the games it uses. The point is to get to play as your favorite characters, with a few surprises. You can't say she should be made to satisfy the people who don't know who she is. That's just unfair.

You asked what character would have not been in without promotion? Pikachu. Without his status as mascot of the Pokemon franchise, he's just yet-another random battle monster, and one with a monotonis moveset, too. THere were better choices.

Wrong. I asked you to show me a character that would not have made it in had it not been for a promotional image of them. If you have a single picture of Pikachu that can be proven as the definative reason it was included in Smash, then by all means I'd love to see it.

 

[Junaur]

0_0
Man do ya'll argue a lot. I've looked through the entire thread, though I admittedly didn't read all the arguments. If I've learned anything from the internet, it's that arguments always go in circles.
Anyway, if I read the thread right, the debate isn't if midna should be in SSBB, but if she should appear with wolf link. I took the liberty of making my own moveset on another forum, and hopefully it will appeal to both sides. Oh, and in advance, I left out the energy field multiple strike attack. It's just a glorified spin slash, but less graceful. More effective, until the last skill, but less graceful.
Also to note, since I'm brand new here, and infact joined because I've participated in this discussion on other forums, I'm probably not very adept in stat and move making. Mainly I don't play often because I don't know anyone around me with this game, and the CPU is blind, except when powershielding. So you'll have to forgive me if a few things overlap, or I miss anything.

My response, as copied from a messege I made on another forum:

From what I see, it's either midna or midna+wolf. Both are viable.
The people who want wolf say that midna would end up another mewtwo, because of her body's stats. This is on top of saying she would basically only use her hair, so they want her to be more unique.
The people who want just midna say that with wolf, the focus would be on wolf link, with midna only doing specials and throws.

These are both viable plans, and really made me think. In a few seconds, I'll reveal what I feel a perfect movelist for her is. But first, let me say, after replaying MM and TP, I feel MM link would be the best addition first off, replacing young link. Then, midna and skull kid are tied, if only for the ideas I got for skull kid during the final battle. Zant, as the last person I would consider, would be the person I'd like to see last. While I can see an ok moveset arrising from his darkballs and twin swords, I would hate it if he even slightly endangered the chance of other characters I want getting in.
Yeah, so anyway, I'll make MM link, skull kid movesets later, since the focus right now is midna.

Midna

Height: Ness
Weight: Ness
Speed: Pikachu
Turn speed: Young link
Jumps: Speed and height of ness', with peach floating ability.
Roll: Turning like zelda, Backwards like sheik, speed of mewtwo
Sidestep: Turn into shadow
Air dodge: Turn into shadow
Traction: Mario
Kirby: Her grey skin and neon greenness

Now for the attacks:

A attacks:​

Neutral A: Pushes with hair hand quickly. No natural combo
Forward A: Slaps hair on ground. Ends attack kneeling.
Foward smash: Same as forward A, but using a hair fist instead of palm. Like foward a, ends attack kneeling down.
Down A: Swings hair as if to trip opponent. Doesn't actually trip them, though.
Down smash: Quickly jumps upsidedown onto ground and spins like a top, her hair undone. Not the best explanation, but you should be able to imagine it.
Up A: Flips hair upward, making it possible to hurt those in front of her.
Up smash: Like foward smash, uses a fist this time instead of palm.
Dash A: Does a summersault, while making hair slap ground in front of her, flips right side up, and lands. Same range as forward A, but faster.

Nair: Twirls hair around her in a 45 degree angle downward, quickly. Does two spins.
Fair: Uses hair like whip in front of her.
Uair: Spins around, trying to hit opponent with body while upside down. Horrible range.
Bair: Spins around, slapping those behind her with her hair.
Dair: Thrusts hair downward, then spins backward to become right side up again.

Special attacks:​

B: Twilit energy-​

The energy attack she uses to free wolf link. Like samus' B, except held in each hand. So basically, it's the same attack divided in two. When you press B, one energy bolt is released. You have to press B in succession to release two, because if you hold B, she'll charge up another energy bolt for the same hand, in half the time as before. Releases the first like a pitch, stepping forward, then releases the other in the opposite fashion (Underhand), also with a step forward, ending that with a twirl. Knockback of a needle.

Side B: Twilit rage-​

Much of it is like the raptor punch. She zooms foward, same speed and distance. If she misses, she falls to the floor and has the same lag as the raptor punch. If she gets in contact with the enemy, though, it's different. Once it hits, it's more like the raptor dive. She turns into a shadow, jumps to the opponent's head, does a backflip while continuing past the enemy with the speed of before, manifests, stops a foot or so away, and slams the opponent into the ground with her hair. This may be hard to explain if you don't already have some type of picture in your head, but basically, as she's moving away and backflipping, her hair grabs onto the opponent's head, which means it goes under her legs and covers her face. She then lifts up her head, pulling the opponent's head down into the ground. This bounces them on the ground as well for combo possiblities.

Up B: Teleportation-​

Self explanatory. Like mewtwo's except with twilight shards damaging those in her path.

Down B: Twilit beast-​

This, I should hope ends the endless bickering between both sides that want her in. She claps her hands together, turns completely black, and transforms into a wolf like link. I should note now that this isn't link. Rather, an all black twilit wolf, almost like a pallet swap of the arctic wolves you see halfway through the game. I should also note that yes, this is midna. A tad bit of a stretch, but if twilit magic can make someone an imp, surely it can make someone a sacred beast, no? The transformation gets a full moveset like sheik, which I'll make after explaining the rest of midna.

Grab: Extends hair with the range of Y.Link's hookshot.
Attack: Squeezes enemy with hair hand.
F throw: Twirls around, and throws enemy forward. Her strongest throw.
U throw: Simply launches opponent up.
B throw: Dramatically throws enemy backward, like in the battle with the final boss's second form. Same sound effect as well.
D throw: Prepares to throw opponent like up throw, but quickly slams them back to the ground.

Super:

Spoiler

Uses fused shadow form. Grabs spear, then grabs opponent with another hand. Launches them up, then slams them down with spear.

Taunt: Sits in midair and does her trademark laugh.

Victory pose 1: Let's hair flow in front of her shoulder, then caresses it. Has a worried look.
Victory pose 2: Yawns like she does on wolf link, and puts hands behind shoulders. Smiles like tetra, with one eye closed.
Victory pose 3: Snaps her fingers, which causes a little energy ala twilight bolt to be seen. Looks away from hand and has a look of disinterest.

Now, onto the second half.

Wolf:​

Since I'm so used to saying wolf link together when I talk about wolf things, just pretend I said wolf whenever it applies and I said link instead.


Height: Mario
Weight: Marth
Speed: Fox
Turn speed: Young link
Jumps: This is hard to explain. You'll hear midna, and it'll sound like she's picking up something heavy. Wolf will jump, his hands will be outstretched, and it will appear is if something is holding him up by his hands. If you've ever played ristar, it will be something like this, but the second jump is just her lifting him higher.
Roll: Turning length like zelda, Backwards length like sheik, speed and look of mewtwo
Sidestep: Turn into shadow
Air dodge: Turn into shadow
Traction: Mario
Kirby: Black except for midna's yellow and red eyes.

Neutral A: Nods at opponent, attacking with head.
Foward A: Bites opponent like normal wolf link attack, without the jump.
Foward smash: Quickly turns around and attacks with hind legs for great knockback.
Down A: Gets low and bites opponent.
Down smash: Traditional spin attack.
Up A: Like bowser's up smash.
Up smash: Does a backflip, hitting those above with hind feet.
Dash A: Does wolf link's dash attack.

Nair: Swings in a tight circle.
Fair: Swings toward opponent.
Uair: Swings up toward opponent.
Bair: Swings back toward opponent.
Dair: Curls up body and hits opponent with hind legs.

B: Link growls while charging. Can move while charging, but projectiles do half the damage of midna's, as well has having less priority on minda's already low priority bolts.
Side B: Link dashs so fast he has afterimages. No contact is only as much lag as fox or falco's side B. Contact makes link do a poe finisher spin, grabbing onto an enemy, then releasing them by kicking them away with his hind feet. Great knockback. Same in air.
Up B: Same as midna.
Down B: Jumps in air, spins, and transforms into midna midair. Same amount of time, of course.

Super: Same as midna. Stays in same form after super.

Taunt: Howls

Victory pose 1: Spins like when correctly howling a song.
Victory pose 2: Lays down for a nap.
Victory pose 3: Gets in howling stance, but barks instead.

 

[Skler]

The threads being combined is a HUGE mindgame.

Anyways, back to stuff.

If I want to play as Midna on wolf Link, I'll play TP. I want a game where Midna can fight alone, I've seen her fight on wolf Link, it's already been done. Having her alone is something completely new/original, why not give the people something they have never had before instead of just giving them the same team you had for part of a game?

The dancing GIR is really quite distracting, my bad if I messed up grammar and things. Man GIR sure can dance...

 

[kaid]

Fine, except for one thing: Smash isn't meant to cater to those who haven't played the games it uses. The point is to get to play as your favorite characters, with a few surprises. You can't say she should be made to satisfy the people who don't know who she is. That's just unfair.

Why would playing as your favorite character with her mount be unfair?

Wrong. I asked you to show me a character that would not have made it in had it not been for a promotional image of them. If you have a single picture of Pikachu that can be proven as the definative reason it was included in Smash, then by all means I'd love to see it.

And what would be the point of that? We've aready pointed out how Midna is linked at the hip to a wolf for everything EXCEPT cut-scenes or the Hyrule Dungion at the beginning, so general promotion would be the reason Midna would be in.

 

[Aminar]

So your logic is that it's been done to have her on wolf link, you want to play her differently. Well this time it will be within a 2d(IE no movement in one of the 3 dimensional directions.) environment. And honestly, ive played as Link a whole lot in his games, why would I want him to play similar to that in smash brothers. Wait, i want to play as my favorite character as they should be played, that being how they play(or a representation of said play that works within a boundary that allows all other characters that are in smash(IE the physics and dimensions of smash)) Thats like saying I want to play as Link, but with no equipment, and in a dress. And the game is meant to appeal to everybody. If someone hasn't played/researched TP then they will most likely not recognize Midna, but they will recognize wolf link, as he appears in lots of promotionalmaterials for the game. Thus it would be better for the game to have Midna on Wolf Link, it would also be more versatile, differant, and ingenuitive to have her on wolf link. If you want to play as just midna campaign for midna to have her own game. Didn't Tingle get a game like that or some such nonsense.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

I want Midna in the game regardless of if Wolf Link is with her or not. I would prefer Wolf Link to accompany her because of these reasons:

-A quadruped character would be different and add something new to the game
-Two characters functioning as one but with different movesets would also be something new (Unlike the IC's, who cooperate, but function as two characters with the same moveset).
-Wolf Link would add something that makes a potentially slow and floaty character better: Speed and Weight. I want Midna in the game, but I really want her to be playable in tough tournaments, so I want a high tiered Midna.
-I think that having Wolf Link would allow, through Link's assistance (whether it be something to grab onto and spin around in the air, or just a steed from she can bash opponents), Midna to have a more diverse moveset (Midna in particular. Not the character on a whole).

 

[Black/Light]

I really can' think of any other ways to say this, as I've had to say it so much: SO FREAKIN' WHAT? Who gives a rat's *** if the TP artwork put them together. I'm not sure you realize this, but Twilight Princess and Smash Bros Brawl aren't the same game. Sorry to ruin the surprise for you.
And Mario and Luigi have two whole games dedicated to them working together. Should they be teamed up?

1) READ THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED!!! Didn't I say (in the quote you quoted) thats it's pointless and that I was just pointing that out?
Also, have Mario and Luigi been in ALL their games working together? Is the only game their in a game where they work together?

Now this argument is beginning to tick me off. Stop hiding behind Smash's loose grasp on the laws of physics. No matter how unrealistic it gets, there is still a limit to how much they can actually do. Wolves can't land on their backs or do most of the stuff that character do in Smash, irregardless of whether or not a sword draws blood in the game. This point is moot.

. . . .So, now you know the limates of a wolf's body? Yes, they CAN land on their backs. Is it likely for a K9 to land on their back? No, because it a sign of submission and it leaves their weak spot wide open so they try hard not to land like that. Can it happen? Yes.
I would also like to hear these "other things" SSB characters can do that Midna and Wolf Link can't.

Yet another person zooms right past my point so they can think that they're right. In Smash Bros., characters can fall face up or face down when they land on the ground. As a wolf, especially with a rider, that would unbelieveably awkward to animate without breaking either the characters playablity, or the animation itself..

So your still sticking with the "Wolf Link can't land face down" or w/e point you think you have?
Also, the animation, if well thought out, wouldn't have to break or look any odder than any other fall.

Sure. Fine, it could work like that. That doesn't mean that it will. Unless you happen to be working on the game right now, I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to use "but it could totally work liek this!!" as legitimate proof.

HA!!! I got you to see a way it "could" work! I thought that up off the top of my head. Im pretty sure a div team of college grad game divs who have worked on many games (and are very creative/experienced )and know SSB. inside out could think of something better than that. . .something I, a 18yo first year art student, thought up in a few mins.
Why do you think so many people make up move-sets for characters that people say "wouldn't fit" or " wouldn't work"? Because they are showing that it could work by using examples of what the character did or could be made to do. Proving to some people that it could work is a great part to it and is the only reason I made that list.

Shut it. Don't get so full of yourself, there. All you, or anybody else who thinks that adding Wolf Link is a good idea has done so far is prove that it is techincally possible that they could make Midna ride on Link. None of you have actually given a reason as to why we need another Link in Brawl, when we could have an equally important and loads more unique character.

THATS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO!!! YOU, said that it was impossible and that is what I (and others) was shooting down.
And reasons for another Link? When "another Link" shows that it could be the first 4 legger/ first fully teamed 2-in-1 character (2 characters that work as ONE)/ has a lil mage imp on his back and holds no sword, item or anything that would make him remotly like the other Link than I really don't see how you could cry "Another LiNk?!?!?". And plus, Midna and Wolf Link could just be named Midna as to not have "another Link" in the select screen. But that doesn't even matter.
And a "loads more unique character"? What, the simple fact that you can't even think of away for Midna and Wolf Link to work leads you to think that they arnt one of the most unique characters we could have? BS. . .

I spent my junior and senior years in high school studying 3D modeling and video game design, so I know what I'm talking about when I talk about coding and game designing. All of you people can keep saying "They could just code it in", but not a single one of you actually realize how much coding is actually required.

. . .Last I checked your education =/= Sarukai's and his massive team of div's education.
But we all know that 2 years of schooling is enuff to teach you the ins and outs about being a experienced div for a game you have never worked on. . .

Yeah, it would be hard, just like with any brand new unique character, but you don't have any idea how Sarukai is making this game nor the tools he has to his disposal. If he wants it done it will get done and be done right.

 

[linkw00t]

*Spoilers for TP*

I really don't see where your logic is in this matter. You're saying that all we're trying to prove is that it is technically possible to have a Midna/Wolf Link. I've said several times that it's only logical that Midna would ride on Wolf Link's back. You're saying that a solo floating slow character (I'm assuming this is how she would be, no one knows for sure) would be more unique that a magic casting Imp that rides on a wolf's back? Also, this is how she generally appears in Twilight Princess, the game that she originated in. And when you see her, she is generally riding Link, or in his shadow not doing anything. So when she is in any action, she is riding on Link or a gigantic monster. Also, she does grab onto Wolf Links fur dreads, which is how she stays on easily while he's fighting.

 

[HiddenTiger]

1) READ THE QUOTE YOU QUOTED!!! Didn't I say (in the quote you quoted) thats it's pointless and that I was just pointing that out?
Also, have Mario and Luigi been in ALL their games working together? Is the only game their in a game where they work together?

I fully realize that Mario and Luigi shouldn't be teamed up just because of one or two games. I was using an equally ******** argument to try and shut kaid ( a few others of you, as well) who seem to beleive with all their hearts that one or two promo images of Midna and Link together means that they've been surgically attached at the hip.

HA!!! I got you to see a way it "could" work! I thought that up off the top of my head. Im pretty sure a div team of college grad game divs who have worked on many games (and are very creative/experienced )and know SSB. inside out could think of something better than that. . .something I, a 18yo first year art student, thought up in a few mins.
Why do you think so many people make up move-sets for characters that people say "wouldn't fit" or " wouldn't work"? Because they are showing that it could work by using examples of what the character did or could be made to do. Proving to some people that it could work is a great part to it and is the only reason I made that list.

So? Yeah, it could work like that, but that by no means means that it will work as smothly as that.

And reasons for another Link? When "another Link" shows that it could be the first 4 legger/ first fully teamed 2-in-1 character (2 characters that work as ONE)/ has a lil mage imp on his back and holds no sword, item or anything that would make him remotly like the other Link than I really don't see how you could cry "Another LiNk?!?!?". And plus, Midna and Wolf Link could just be named Midna as to not have "another Link" in the select screen. But that doesn't even matter.

By 'another Link' I do not mean "omg clone!!". By 'another Link' I mean "yet another variation of the character Link." It's the exact same reason we don't need Dark Samus or Shadow Mario.

. . .Last I checked your education =/= Sarukai's and his massive team of div's education.
But we all know that 2 years of schooling is enuff to teach you the ins and outs about being a experienced div for a game you have never worked on. . .

Yeah, it would be hard, just like with any brand new unique character, but you don't have any idea how Sarukai is making this game nor the tools he has to his disposal. If he wants it done it will get done and be done right.

Hey, pal. I never once claimed to be an expert. I just said I know what goes into making a game, and as such I think I know what I'm talking about when I say that there is a freakin' lot of coding that goes into a game. Of course I'm no Sakurai. But whether it's a high school graduate with two years of classes or a respected developer with years of experience, it doesn't change that fact that coding and animation is a very, very, very long and complicated process. Just because he's better than I'll probably ever be doesn't mean he gets to do less. It's still hard, and it's still cumbersome.

Why would playing as your favorite character with her mount be unfair?

What I said was that tailoring Midna in Brawl to cater to those who don't know who she is, rather than those who have played the game and are true fans, would be unfair.

And what would be the point of that? We've aready pointed out how Midna is linked at the hip to a wolf for everything EXCEPT cut-scenes or the Hyrule Dungion at the beginning, so general promotion would be the reason Midna would be in.

The point being you have nothing to back up that rediculous "that promo image means they have to be together" argument of yours. It makes no sense, and it's completely irrelevant in terms of Smash Bros. They don't need to 'promote' Midna. Twilight Princess is already out. Roy was 'general promotion'.

 

[linkw00t]

Well don't characters generally appear as they do in the games they came from? Seriously, the "Smash is a different game! Mario doesn't HAVE to have a mustache!" kind of arguement is just as ********. Also you're two links arguement isn't quite a good comparison either. Dark Samus and Shadow Mario are closely similar to the characters they are based on, while Wolf Link and Link are less Similar. Now Dark Link from OoT, that would be a great comparison to what you are talking about.

Also, tailoring her to people who don't know who she is? Isn't a big part of Midna, Wolf Link?

Have you played TP? I mean seriously, play the game, and you'll realize how connected they are.

 

[HiddenTiger]

Well don't characters generally appear as they do in the games they came from? Seriously, the "Smash is a different game! Mario doesn't HAVE to have a mustache!" kind of arguement is just as ********.

Alright, now you're just being childish. You're over-simplifying my words to try and make me sounds stupid. I'm not talking about how Midna should look. I'm trying to show that it's unnecesary to add in something who is not only the third iteration of a character who we already have in the game, but also make the character, Midna, almost completely unnecesary.

Also you're two links arguement isn't quite a good comparison either. Dark Samus and Shadow Mario are closely similar to the characters they are based on, while Wolf Link and Link are less Similar. Now Dark Link from OoT, that would be a great comparison to what you are talking about.

And if you mosey on over to the 'Samus' Rivals' thread, you'll read all about how Dark Samus isn't actually Samus, and would be totally different. It's still Samus, and the Wolf is still Link.

Also, tailoring her to people who don't know who she is? Isn't a big part of Midna, Wolf Link?

First of all, that was directed at the person who said that the wolf should be in so that people who don't know her will learn about her. Second, no Link is not a part of Midna. They work together, but that doesn't mean that they the same person.

Have you played TP? I mean seriously, play the game, and you'll realize how connected they are.

Again, I haven't played the game because I can't afford a Wii right now, but I realize that the two work together a lot in Twilight Princess. I fail to see how that means the same is true for Smash Bros. The Ice Climbers never work together in their game, why should they in Smash, right? I mean, the game has them split apart, so there's no way that they'd want to team them up.

 

[<π]

First off, does Luigi RIDE on Mario's back?

I just wanted to quote this, I thought it was kind of funny because in the game he does ride mario.

And I just want to coment on hidden's post. From a programing perspective putting wolf link and midna in the game would be very hard. If you we to look at melee you'd notice that all of the characters have two legs two arms a head, as well as an upper mid and lower body portion. Doing this made all of the characters much easier to get bounding boxes and animations done. Or at least this is what I can assume knowing the structure of games
(Yes, I know I said "assumtion" don't quote it and bold it, your whole anti solo midna argument is assumption...)
Now having midna actually on link (or even using to different character bases and merging them to behave like one, the route I'd take) would be a very long task. You'd either have to recode a whole new base that still responds and works like the old one while at the same time creating a few hundred animations where the character (midna and link) have to seperate and reconnect.

In LoZ:TP you'll notice that you don't see midna get on or off links back often, you very rarely (I think there are only two or three animations where she leaves his bad and returns to it) see this animation done even in cut scenes because it isn't easy to do... You'll also notice that midna has no hit box attacks go right through her.
For her and link to be in brawl together both of these would have to be done and be done well, that would take much much longer than it would to make a normal two legged two armed character. It just might not be worth the extra man hours...

Also, just want to say don't ask for proof of anything that has to do with brawl because there is none for either side.

Also, Thread Merge = moveset contest is gone.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

I was right...

This IS getting good.

*Continues munching his popcorn...*

 

[Junaur]

Also, Thread Merge = moveset contest is gone.

T_T
Still though, what did you think of my moveset? Not what I would consider finalized, since I left out damage, and much of the knockback, but wouldn't you agree that it was a good blueprint for her?

 

[HiddenTiger]

And I just want to coment on hidden's post. From a programing perspective putting wolf link and midna in the game would be very hard. If you we to look at melee you'd notice that all of the characters have two legs two arms a head, as well as an upper mid and lower body portion. Doing this made all of the characters much easier to get bounding boxes and animations done. Or at least this is what I can assume knowing the structure of games
(Yes, I know I said "assumtion" don't quote it and bold it, your whole anti solo midna argument is assumption...)
Now having midna actually on link (or even using to different character bases and merging them to behave like one, the route I'd take) would be a very long task. You'd either have to recode a whole new base that still responds and works like the old one while at the same time creating a few hundred animations where the character (midna and link) have to seperate and reconnect.

In LoZ:TP you'll notice that you don't see midna get on or off links back often, you very rarely (I think there are only two or three animations where she leaves his bad and returns to it) see this animation done even in cut scenes because it isn't easy to do... You'll also notice that midna has no hit box attacks go right through her.
For her and link to be in brawl together both of these would have to be done and be done well, that would take much much longer than it would to make a normal two legged two armed character. It just might not be worth the extra man hours...

Finally! Someone who actually knows what they're talking about. If you people still won't listen to me, then listen to LessThanThree over here. You can't just say "they were together in TP so there." You need to think in terms of Smash. Hitboxes, attack bubbles, collision detection, stats, range, balance. Wolf Link would just upset everything too much. They'd have to build a completely separate engine for one character. Why would you ask them to do that?

Also:

I just wanted to quote this, I thought it was kind of funny because in the game he does ride mario.

In the face! XD

 

[Aminar]

He'd be roughly DK size, no bigger. The hit box argument is good, but there is an easy, and in character way to avoid that. EVERY SINGLE TIME wolf link gets in trouble(Dies, falls into the poisonous fog, etc.) Midna teleports off of his back, and reapears when he's not in trouble. When an attack would be about to hit her she could teleport, as we know she can, and reapear a little later. Secondly, Ive programmed. The coding for this would be difficult, probably as hard as doing two movesets, like shiek/Zelda. They did that, and it was one of the most popular characters in the game. Because Variety is a good thing. Also you are completely ignoring my argumaent that Midna without Wolf Link would not be faithful to Twilight princesse as a game.

 

[<π]

He'd be roughly DK size, no bigger. The hit box argument is good, but there is an easy, and in character way to avoid that. EVERY SINGLE TIME wolf link gets in trouble(Dies, falls into the poisonous fog, etc.) Midna teleports off of his back, and reapears when he's not in trouble. When an attack would be about to hit her she could teleport, as we know she can, and reapear a little later.

You still need a hit box to detect when she was going to be hit, and this would also make the pair somewhat broken as well. This would also mean doing animations for when just link is hit and midna is in her "disapeared "state.

Secondly, Ive programmed. The coding for this would be difficult, probably as hard as doing two movesets, like shiek/Zelda. They did that, and it was one of the most popular characters in the game.

They did 26 complete different move sets in SSBM actually... thats no big. The problem is midnalink (thats what I'm calling them from now on...) can't work with the normal bipedal base other characters have. That means you basically have to start all over to include this one character. I'm not saying it's impossible or anything but it is time consuming

Because Variety is a good thing. Also you are completely ignoring my argumaent that Midna without Wolf Link would not be faithful to Twilight princesse as a game.

Why wouldn't that be faithful? Midna is off of link in the game much longer than he is on him. And even if that was the case it a rule that can't be broken. F-Zero and StarFox are examples of this in smash, and countless other games have broken the norm before them, the Zelda serise in fact is a great example of this.

 

[HiddenTiger]

He'd be roughly DK size, no bigger. The hit box argument is good, but there is an easy, and in character way to avoid that. EVERY SINGLE TIME wolf link gets in trouble(Dies, falls into the poisonous fog, etc.) Midna teleports off of his back, and reapears when he's not in trouble. When an attack would be about to hit her she could teleport, as we know she can, and reapear a little later.

That would get way too complicated and probably mess the game up even further. What if the player used an attack that had Midna do something, and then someone attacked them simultaneously? Would Midna's attack be cancelled? Would she disappear, but have the invisible hitbox still stay there and attack while she isn't there? If she didn't teleport, but was still attacking, would she get hit or would the attack just fly right through her? It's overcomplicated and unworkable.

The coding for this would be difficult, probably as hard as doing two movesets, like shiek/Zelda. They did that, and it was one of the most popular characters in the game. Because Variety is a good thing.

You see, Zelda and Sheik is a bad example because they are still both bipedal. While it can't be easy to code any character, they still basically just had to make two separate characters, and then tie them together with one move. Wolf Link, on the other hand, would require an entirely separate gameplay engine all to himself just to make him work properly in a Smash Bros game.

Also you are completely ignoring my argumaent that Midna without Wolf Link would not be faithful to Twilight princesse as a game.

Zelda using Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, and Naryu's Love isn't faithful to Ocarina of Time as a game. Young Link and Link being on the same stage at the same time isn't faithful to Ocarina of Time as a game. Everything about Ganondorf isn't faithful to Ocarina of Time as a game. The way Mario uses his cape isn't faithful to Super Mario World as a game. Dr. Mario using a super jump punch, sheet, or tornado attack isn't faithful to Dr. Mario as a game. Peach being able to pull vegetables out anywhere isn't faithful to Super Mario Bros. 2 as a game. Ness using PK Fire or PK Thunder isn't faithful to Earthbound as a game. Kirby using final cutter, hammer, or stone without absorbing an enemy first isn't faithful to Kirby Superstar as a game. Pit having a separable bow isn't faithful to Kid Icarus as a game. The Ice Climbers being a team isn't faithful to Ice Climber as a game. Captain Falcon having firey kicks and punches isn't faithful to F-Zero as a game. Snake without guns isn't faithful to Metal Gear Solid as a game.

And that is why I ignored that argument.

 

[Black/Light]

So? Yeah, it could work like that, but that by no means means that it will work as smothly as that.

. . . Sorry, Im confused. Where you trying to say "by no means does that prove it will work as smothly as that" or something?

But whether it's a high school graduate with two years of classes or a respected developer with years of experience, it doesn't change that fact that coding and animation is a very, very, very long and complicated process. Just because he's better than I'll probably ever be doesn't mean he gets to do less. It's still hard, and it's still cumbersome.

Wow, that reminds me of a quote from someone. . . .

Black/Light -Yeah, it would be hard (meaning, it will take time and energy), just like with any brand new unique character, but you don't have any idea how Sarukai is making this game nor the tools he has to his disposal. If he wants it done it will get done and be done right.

Again, if he wants it done it will be done right. I in no way see how you 2 (HT/ <3) have tried to pull this argument into a "It would be VERY hard to do" debate.
You both have said that you think it could be done so that point is lame IMO.

And all this talk about hit boxes and "what if Midna get hit" and such-and-such. Heres my take on these things. . .
Hit box- Hirozontaly I think it would be about as long as the IC's when their close. Reason for thinking this- Because in TP Wolf Link was more boxed in in his frame than a normal wolf would have been. So the divs from tp have already thought about him being so long and have fixed it up.

Vertical, they should be something less than Fox's hight. My reason for thinking this- Because I would think that if the 5 characters from LoZ that are in SSB. all macth the scale relation they have to each other in their own game than the same would happen with Midna and Link seeing as they arnt exstreamly small (bout 3 1/2ft- 4 ft tall)

Top part- Midna's head (her head dress should work as Pika's ears as in it doesn't effect her hit box.).
Mid part- Wolf Link's head. Back side- Their back.
Low part- Wolf Link's legs.

If Midna gets hit it should be taken like a head shot (no teleporting out). The only time I think they should be apart is in their up B which I think should be her flying (or teleporting) out to a point and than end with Wolf Link dashing there. She could be in shadow form so no one can hit her and if WL is hit before getting there she could just teleport on him well hes falling.

Yeah, this is just my assumtion of what their hit box could look like and how Midna getting hit would work. In no way am I using this as proof for anything other than what I think could work. I say this because I really don't think they would have to go to the exstreams I see you 2 claiming they would have to go to make him work. Yeah, the animation would be hard to do, but I don't really think that they would have to warp the game to get them in.
But who knows. . . .(the divs, but their not talking soo. . . )