The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[KiwiBear]

I'm sure this has been said within 500+ pages of this slop but....Yoshi, is the answer to MK.

MK doesn't need to be banned because MK is not broken. He's easily countered by the character everyone keeps claiming as low tier.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Yoshi is the answer to mk in FD. But in platform stages well u know.

 

[salaboB]

I'm sure this has been said within 500+ pages of this slop but....Yoshi, is the answer to MK.

MK doesn't need to be banned because MK is not broken. He's easily countered by the character everyone keeps claiming as low tier.

One of the best Yoshi's in the country doesn't believe the cg works reliably on MK. If it ends up being true, Yoshi will no longer go neutral (And won't have any big CP stages either, because those all rely on walkoff cg's to be a huge advantage).

 

[BentoBox]

BentoBox: i love my sig. TL is blue because i use blue TL.

I was refering to dakid's post... That's not even dark blue in your sig @_@"

 

[Steel]

I'm sure this has been said within 500+ pages of this slop but....Yoshi, is the answer to MK.

MK doesn't need to be banned because MK is not broken. He's easily countered by the character everyone keeps claiming as low tier.

no he isn't.

 

[Naucitos]

i feel the need to correct one GROSS misconception

just because i have a sonic head next to my name DOES NOT mean that i dont play other characters.

you people think that i only play this one character, when, in fact, im intentionally going to this tourney to try and get 5 characters next to my name in the results for the tourney...
in addition to sonic I play:
Lucario
Fox
Pit
D3
Wolf
and I dabble in Falco

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the situation?

I honestly havent played my sonic vs an MK in 4 months except for 1 game where i got CP'd. i gave up on that match a while ago. and half of those characters, i picked up SPECIFICALLY to beat MK.

now... anybody in my area that is not a total hater will admit that i am just as good as anybody that goes to the tourneys. But when everyone plays MK to the point that i cant even play my favorite character, because i have to pick somebody else just to have a chance at winning, and Im still getting beat by MK at every turn... then the games not fun for me anymore, and theres no reason for me to continue showing up for the tourneys....
ill play friendlys all day, and for the most part MK is banned in friendlys around here. but for the record, i know for a fact that that I would not be the first around here to quit playing singles in tourneys because of MK, and I proly wont be the last either.

As immodest as that is, it really isn't pertinent at all. I don't whine about yoshi getting dominated by G&W in tournaments (Well, i sometimes do, but i don't call them cheap and don't try to get them banned) If i got fed up with it, i would practice against more G&W, and possibly try to pick up another character. Basically, you are *****ing that the best character in the game is popular and your favorite character has the biggest disadvantage to the best character.

so dont talk about things that you dony know about and dont make baseless assuptions, it just makes you look bad.

What assumptions are being made? I missed this part

Im not saying he isnt beatable, because he is. hes just not beatable to the point where its worth it for me to try...

So you're saying that the match is too hard, and you'd rather just ban him than try to find a way around it, is this your first competitive game?

One of the best Yoshi's in the country doesn't believe the cg works reliably on MK. If it ends up being true, Yoshi will no longer go neutral (And won't have any big CP stages either, because those all rely on walkoff cg's to be a huge advantage).

Who is this? The CG works beyond a shadow of a doubt, as does the upsmash on release.
That said, i don't think yoshi is THE answer to MK, although i do believe they are neutral, or at the least very, VERY close.
There are multiple other characters who are close, and have already been brought up.

Also, walkoff CGs are hardly even factored into yoshis matchup, IMO the best stages for him are delfino and corneria, although bridge would obviously be autoloss of a stock if the bridge isn't down or you are facing the right way. Platforms help yoshi as much if not more than MK, with the exception of the battlefield platforms, but thats mitigated by the lower vertical blast zone

One of the big problems with the matchup threads is that people get fed up with the MKs never being willing to give up any ground on their matchups, even if its worth fighting metaknight in brawl, fewer people think its worth fighting MK's fanboys on the boards (Not directed at you pro ban people, although possibly some)

 

[Gindler]

One of the best Yoshi's in the country doesn't believe the cg works reliably on MK. If it ends up being true, Yoshi will no longer go neutral (And won't have any big CP stages either, because those all rely on walkoff cg's to be a huge advantage).

The CG always works, grab release to Usmash is the thing that isn't reliable. The especially unreliable is grab release to spike as it's situational to the max (maybe get it once every 3 matches...). But the CG is still there and helps slow the match so MK doesn't get too out of hand.

no he isn't.

QFT, counter is a strong word.

 

[ibrium]

If you think this, you're kidding yourself. Every character board is searching for anti-MK strategies, because any character who becomes the MK counter instantly shoots up the tier list and becomes very good.

Every time they find one, the MK's develop an even better counter-strategy.

Then, pardon me for being bold, they aren't finished yet. As I recall, everyone repping an earthbound boy cried foul when Marth's "infinite" was discovered. Was that not just recently disbarred?

I'm simply arguing banning an entire character should be an absolute last resort. There should be no other options available, and as of right now, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Mk has frame advantage, broken kill moves *cough* downsmash* cough*, broken priority because his attacks cant even clank, he gimps all the cast easily, has an insane dash grab and his grab game leads to aerials and MT, has no neutral or bad matchups, has the most tournament winnings than any other character, has the most broken move ever that gives him **** matchups *cough* MT on D3*cough*. It is highly unlikely that we will find some kind of AT in the future that makes him have bad matchups but it is a possibility, just very unlikely. And everybody is using him (even me ocasionally to win some hard matchups at tourneys). So i say he should be banned already the sooner the better so that mk mains can find another main early on.

I really can't even read this. o.o;

It is highly unlikely that we will find some kind of AT in the future that makes him have bad matchups but it is a possibility, just very unlikely.

We don't need "bad-matchups". Even matchups would at least allow variety in the counterpick.

So i say he should be banned already the sooner the better so that mk mains can find another main early on.

Oh, I see. You're doing it for the MetaKnight mains, huh? :=

 

[Naucitos]

Sorry bento, i was responding in blue inside the quote because i'm too lazy to open/close the quote/i'm in class , if you'd like ill lighten the color.

Also, the release fair is guaranteed if you space it correctly, i believe. Which is a pain, even if its technically possible to get it every time with enough room

 

[pastaboy]

its not hard for an mk to learn yoshis tactics, once he learns them, yoshi isnt a threat anymore.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Ibrium: I guess u havent played a really good mk ever. Play one and then come back to this thread.

Bento: Oops sorry i thought u were referring to my sig...

 

[salaboB]

Who is this? The CG works beyond a shadow of a doubt, as does the upsmash on release.
That said, i don't think yoshi is THE answer to MK, although i do believe they are neutral, or at the least very, VERY close.
There are multiple other characters who are close, and have already been brought up.

Also, walkoff CGs are hardly even factored into yoshis matchup, IMO the best stages for him are delfino and corneria, although bridge would obviously be autoloss of a stock if the bridge isn't down or you are facing the right way. Platforms help yoshi as much if not more than MK, with the exception of the battlefield platforms, but thats mitigated by the lower vertical blast zone

One of the big problems with the matchup threads is that people get fed up with the MKs never being willing to give up any ground on their matchups, even if its worth fighting metaknight in brawl, fewer people think its worth fighting MK's fanboys on the boards (Not directed at you pro ban people, although possibly some)

Bwett said it, I can get you the quote if you don't want to just take my word on it.

And Yoshi is generally accepted to be at 55:45 MK's favor on stages without walkoff edges (Like Castle Siege and there's apparently a few others with close enough to kill edges), 50:50 only if you're being a little biased towards Yoshi.

 

[Naucitos]

Pasta: The thing is, yoshi has an answer to every one of MKs approaches, and he can camp MK, as well as space himself well against MK. Its just as easy for the yoshi to learn MKs tactics, and the yoshi will inevitably have more experience fighting MKs

TLM: first off, others here have (Myself included)
But that doesen't even matter
You're saying it like hes going to go fight someone whos better than him, then he should instantly come back and think that MK is broken and should be banned just because he got his *** kicked.

Edit: salaboB: right, like i said, its neutral or very close. I honestly think that part of the reason it isn't is because the boards are stubborn.

Also, i believe you saying bwett said it, but that doesen't make it true. Besides that, he was most likely talking about the release to fair.

 

[ibrium]

Ibrium: I guess u havent played a really good mk ever. Play one and then come back to this thread.

Bento: Oops sorry i thought u were referring to my sig...

I guess you assume that someone can't lose to a really good metaknight player and still hold the opinion that the metagame isn't developed enough.

I've seen a ZSS take down a good MK and G&W on a TEAM.

Is it likely to lead anywhere? maybe not. But there's hope.

You're whining and *****ing like MK will never be beaten shows both a lack of understanding and a lack of willpower.

KEEP MOVING FORWARD. Or, by your logic, take the easiest route.

You're not any more informed than anyone else. Take your pomp somewhere else.

 

[TLMSheikant]

BTW the chain grab is inescapable if executed right.

 

[TLMSheikant]

ibrium: Ive never said that i cant beat mks. I just cant beat them consistently and when i do beat them i do not beat them because i exploited (did i say it right?) some uber weakness mk has. Do u really like a game with nothing but the same character in tourneys? because i don't.

 

[salaboB]

BTW the chain grab is inescapable if executed right.

You'll have to talk to Bwett about it.

Just as a last note on Yoshi, CG to Fair is not guaranteed. DI away and down easily gets out of it. Not only that but several moves like shuttle will get you killed for even trying it. Furthermore, CG in itself is starting to prove ineffective. People in Dallas are starting to learn that if you mash the buttons fast on the second grab, you can do the insta-grab break and break the grab on the ground. I'm not sure how it works but it does. So far, two of my friends are doing it every time and making CG useless besides the minimal possibility that they don't shield an usmash after the first release.

 

[ibrium]

ibrium: Ive never said that i cant beat mks. I just cant beat them consistently and when i do beat them i do not beat them because i exploited (did i say it right?) some uber weakness mk has. Do u really like a game with nothing but the same character in tourneys? because i don't.

I don't think that's specifically the case just yet.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I thought that mk couldnt ground release from yoshi's grab? Oh well there goes another possible counter tactic against mk. Great! *sarcasm*

 

[salaboB]

I thought that mk couldnt ground release from yoshi's grab? Oh well there goes another possible counter tactic against mk. Great! *sarcasm*

I don't believe the cg working or not is related to MK ground releasing.

 

[Steel]

MK can't ground release unless the opponent is repeatedly jabbing him.

However, rumors are going that MK can escape the follow up hit with double-stick DI. Needs to be tested.

 

[bludhoundz]

It is.

He needs to be air released to be re-grabbed.

He also needs to be air released for any guaranteed kill setups.

Edit: Steel snuck in his post before mine. This post is in response to salaboB.

 

[salaboB]

It is.

He needs to be air released to be re-grabbed.

He also needs to be air released for any guaranteed kill setups.

Edit: Steel snuck in his post before mine. This post is in response to salaboB.

I should have said it differently: I haven't heard anyone mention MK successfully ground releasing as the reason it fails.

It may be the case, but it's news to me. The Bwett cg-doesn't-work was something different.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I phail lol i misinterpreted the bwett info on the CG. Sorry if i confused anyone. If mk can escape the CG with double sticking that sucks. BTW im out these mk related threads are tiring and boring...

 

[negative]

i h8 meta knight soooooooooooooooo much,
his attacks have to much priority.
his speed is pretty fast and so he has no disadvs so it annoys me y the creator made him like this.
apparently he was a big fan of the kirby series, thats y kirby and king dedede are also extremely powerful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

One thing that irks me is when people do that color response when they quote someone's post.
its annoying and makes me have to do twice as much work and its stupid.

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the situation?

Everyone keeps on bringing up his usage of Sonic as a weapon against his argument when clearly this is no true. hence why he is mentioning it.
He is NOT focusing on just the Sonic vs Mk argument so everytime someone brings it up just makes my head ache terribly.
go. and half of those characters, i picked up SPECIFICALLY to beat MK.

As immodest as that is, it really isn't pertinent at all. I don't whine about yoshi getting dominated by G&W in tournaments (Well, i sometimes do, but i don't call them cheap and don't try to get them banned) If i got fed up with it, i would practice against more G&W, and possibly try to pick up another character. Basically, you are *****ing that the best character in the game is popular and your favorite character has the biggest disadvantage to the best character.

WHAT THE HELL DID HE JUST SAY!?
Again the fact that there are so many MK's abut makes it an issue because it means regardless of whom he uses he will always be at an immediate disadvantage.

What assumptions are being made? I missed this part

Again everyone keeps mentioning Sonic when clearly this is not being stated on his part. while Sonic is his main he does not talk about Sonic vs Mk as a part of his argument.
He is stating I can't use my favorite character which makes the game unfun. he acnowledges that fact and mentions how he uses OTHER characters to get around that issue.

I

So you're saying that the match is too hard, and you'd rather just ban him than try to find a way around it, is this your first competitive game?

SEE WHAT I MEAN!?
Let alone that you are making large assumptions.
You are assuming he has not tried to find a way around it and basically ignored the fact that he is using 4 other characters just for the sake of finding a means of beating MK.

Christ

 

[Plairnkk]

i dont like how ppl that are against the ban tend to trivialize the reasons for it, while it seems like ppl for the ban (me, salaboB, DRaGZ, Arturito_Burrito) are more apt to take other peoples arguments and explain throughly why that arguement is either incorrect or does not devalididate the ban.

people (like anther among others) try to make it seem so easy to: "just block and punish the tornado" or, "just shieldgrab the glide attack" and im really getting tired of it, the stuff you need to do to beat him really isnt as easy as people make it out to be. because if it was, people like plank and dr. mario kart wouldnt be winning.

everybody needs to come to an accurate understanding to the extent that MK is hurting the game.
just because you want to ignore the elephant in the room doesnt mean that hes not there

Dude, you are the most stupid person ever. Why do you even post? Who have you ever played in Brawl that was any good, anyway? You're from Rochester, you guys are notoriously terrible at smash as a whole. I've ledge stalled two sets ever in brawl, and won multiple tournaments and taken sets off of the best players in the country. I am better than you without metaknight, so I don't even know why you make it such a point to try and say I wouldn't win without him. You're just a total ****** and it's awful logic to assume that those of us winning with metaknight would not win without him. About 95% of the people I beat with metaknight I beat with secondaries. Some people I CAN'T beat with metaknight, I can beat with my secondaries. Seriously, you're just completely ignorant and stupid. You all need to just admit that you aren't losing because of metaknight, you're losing because the other player is more talented. You just want a cop out. Tornado is stupidly easy to punish, no matter what character I am I love when a metaknight tornadoes me. Do you know why? Because I'm smart. You aren't. That's why you are arguing the way you are. I've seen a few legitimate arguments for MK being banned (and really, it wouldn't effect me much anyway so I don't care) but your arguments are just ********. You can't be older than 16, and you seriously have the mentality of an 8 year old. You need to travel and play better players to get better, you are garbage for a reason, and that reason is NOT metaknight

 

[TeeVee]

Plank straight up just gave da kid the business...

 

[Gindler]

It is.

He needs to be air released to be re-grabbed.

He also needs to be air released for any guaranteed kill setups.

Edit: Steel snuck in his post before mine. This post is in response to salaboB.

Yoshi always air releases everyone, since he holds them in his mouth they're all off the ground and have no choice but to air release. Bowser's got some nifty tricks with releasing MK as well, just harder for him to get a hold of the little bugger.

BTW: using top MK players as an example of him being overpowered is stupid, they all dominate with multiple characters...

 

[salaboB]

Tornado is stupidly easy to punish, no matter what character I am I love when a metaknight tornadoes me.

You fight bad MKs if they tornado you when it's easily punished.

 

[Plairnkk]

You fight bad MKs if they tornado you when it's easily punished.

Yes. I fight bad MK's. Either that or I am actually good and can shield drop/reshield correctly if they come back at you once you go after them. It's not difficult, and since I am a MK player I know how to do it correctly. People are just inexperienced. It helps to be certain faster characters or characters with quick shield/shielddrop animations, but it's punishable with almost every character.

But yes, my region has no good metaknights (forte, m2k, omni, myself, korn, lukky). Yeah, I play the worst of the worst metaknights.

...


...

...


god, people are stupid

 

[ShadowLink84]

Dude, you are the most stupid person ever.

Great way to start your argument.

Why do you even post?

The TOS allows him to do so.

Who have you ever played in Brawl that was any good, anyway?

Can we not say the same to you?

You're from Rochester, you guys are notoriously terrible at smash as a whole.

Blanket statements are blanket.mind you M2K is i jersey and they are not that good either.
Does this mean m2k automatically sucks?

is I've ledge stalled two sets ever in brawl, and won multiple tournaments and taken sets off of the best players in the country. I am better than you without metaknight, so I don't even know why you make it such a point to try and say I wouldn't win without him.

I don't agree with you saying "I am better than you' automatically primarily because there is no solid justification.
Mind you, Ken went to his first tournament and annihilated everyone without having gone to a tournament in the past. So its bad to make such assumptions.
I do agree that the argument saying good player can't win without MK is stupid.

You're just a total ****** and it's awful logic to assume that those of us winning with metaknight would not win without him.

Ad hominems are terrible .
Why doy ou make them?
Why are you repeating yourself?

About 95% of the people I beat with metaknight I beat with secondaries. Some people I CAN'T beat with metaknight, I can beat with my secondaries.

This is known as anecdotal evidence.
Your own behavior cannot be placed forward as strong evidence.

Seriously, you're just completely ignorant and stupid.

Are you 14?

You all need to just admit that you aren't losing because of metaknight, you're losing because the other play is more talented.

Proof or it didn't happen.
All this is the same old tired argument of "get better and you will win."
Player skill never factors into the banning of a character so do not bring it up.

You just want a cop out.

its an elaborate cop out on OS and many other high level playes parts right?

Tornado is stupidly easy to punish, no matter what character I am I love when a metaknight tornadoes me.

Really now?
Pray tell why?

Do you know why? Because I'm smart. You aren't.

So if the MK user is not as smart as the ther play you can punish the tornado easily!

NO WAI!

That's why you are arguing the way you are.

At least he supports his argument rather than repeatedly flame the other person.

I've seen a few legitimate arguments for MK being banned (and really, it wouldn't effect me much anyway so I don't care) but your arguments are just ********.

So yu want to respond to arguments that you feel are stupid but wno't erspond to logical ones?
if they do not affect you either way why are you posting?

You can't be older than 16, and you seriously have the mentality of an 8 year old. You need to travel and play better players to get better, you are garbage for a reason

This just made my day.
Plairnkk shows himself off as a hypocrite and a fool.
I love it when people do that.

 

[UTDZac]

BTW the chain grab is inescapable if executed right.

FALSE. To answer all of your questions:

The Yoshi Chaingrab on MK is ESCAPABLE

Just press buttons really, really, really fast.

Bwett and I figured it out. We play regularly, though I most always use G&W. He told me that his character, Yoshi, beats MK. And being the doubtful person I am, I tested that theory.

Turns out the CG Yoshi has on MK can easily be broken out of (and the release to Upsmash can just be shielded). Breaking out looks like an instant grab break, however it is not. Below 40% an MK player should never take more than 2-3% dmg from a Yoshi grab as he can break out instantly after the first Nom.

I will upload a video if you guys really want to see it.

 

[salaboB]

Yes. I fight bad MK's. Either that or I am actually good and can shield drop/reshield correctly if they come back at you once you go after them. It's not difficult, and since I am a MK player I know how to do it correctly. People are just inexperienced. It helps to be certain faster characters or characters with quick shield/shielddrop animations, but it's punishable with almost every character.

But yes, my region has no good metaknights (forte, m2k, omni, myself, korn, lukky). Yeah, I play the worst of the worst metaknights.

Tell me, do they tornado you when it's easily punished? Because I didn't say they were bad unless they tornado you when you easily punish them.

Like, they tornado you and you punish them. Do they keep doing it after you demonstrate you're able to? If so, then no matter how good they are they're stupid.

 

[M15t3R E]

Seriously? Considering the matchups are discussed considering a high level of play, with both players knowing their opponents character, how can you POSSIBLY say that an almost even matchup requires no knowledge of your opponents character and not notice yourself that its complete bull?

With any other character there's a distinct strategy that works best on another character to make the match-up in your favor.
To use Meta Knight effectively against every character, you don't need strategy. It always works to jump in with fairs, tornados, and d-smashes/shuttle loops up close. That's all you need to know with Meta Knight.

FALSE. To answer all of your questions:

The Yoshi Chaingrab on MK is ESCAPABLE

Just press buttons really, really, really fast.

Bwett and I figured it out. We play regularly, though I most always use G&W. He told me that his character, Yoshi, beats MK. And being the doubtful person I am, I tested that theory.

Turns out the CG Yoshi has on MK can easily be broken out of (and the release to Upsmash can just be shielded). Breaking out looks like an instant grab break, however it is not. Below 40% an MK player should never take more than 2-3% dmg from a Yoshi grab as he can break out instantly after the first Nom.

I will upload a video if you guys really want to see it.

Good find! MK anti-ban people officially have even less ammo in their arsenal now. Not that they had much to begin with.

 

[Plairnkk]

Great way to start your argument.


The TOS allows him to do so.

Can we not say the same to you?

Blanket statements are blanket.mind you M2K is i jersey and they are not that good either.
Does this mean m2k automatically sucks?

I don't agree with you saying "I am better than you' automatically primarily because there is no solid justification.
Mind you, Ken went to his first tournament and annihilated everyone without having gone to a tournament in the past. So its bad to make such assumptions.
I do agree that the argument saying good player can't win without MK is stupid.

Ad hominems are terrible .
Why doy ou make them?
Why are you repeating yourself?

This is known as anecdotal evidence.
Your own behavior cannot be placed forward as strong evidence.

Are you 14?

Proof or it didn't happen.
All this is the same old tired argument of "get better and you will win."
Player skill never factors into the banning of a character so do not bring it up.


its an elaborate cop out on OS and many other high level playes parts right?

Really now?
Pray tell why?

So if the MK user is not as smart as the ther play you can punish the tornado easily!

NO WAI!

At least he supports his argument rather than repeatedly flame the other person.


So yu want to respond to arguments that you feel are stupid but wno't erspond to logical ones?
if they do not affect you either way why are you posting?


This just made my day.
Plairnkk shows himself off as a hypocrite and a fool.
I love it when people do that.

How do I show myself as a fool? I flamed him because he tried to state that I wouldn't with without metaknight.

What tournament did Ken win? Didn't he go to Evo and lose to a ROB who sidestepped over and over and then downsmashed?

OS is not good at brawl.

I repeat myself because I am in disbelief that people are really so scrubby as to want a character banned 6 months after a game comes out.

How bout this. I'll keep going to tournaments and keep winning. You random newbies (who really mean nothing to the tournament scene, I mean how many people in this thread actually go to tournaments anyway?) can keep on playing and keep on getting frustrated and losing. Rather than learning to beat it, you can just whine and cry until it's banned.

Then when you are still bad, you can whine and cry until there's something else to blame losing on. You know who doesn't whine about MK? The top players who place well across the country.

Frankly I'd love to see MK get banned, because it would be hilarious for all the newbies who think MK being banned will be a fresh start for them (just like they thought brawl would be a fresh start from melee) just continue to lose.

 

[brinboy789]

The Yoshi Chaingrab on MK is ESCAPABLE

lies. i was up against a really good yoshi a couple of days before and i kept on getting CG'ed, and i jamming my controller with random buttons. IT DOESNT WORK. jeez. yoshi is neutral, stop saying that MK has no neutral matchups. snake is HIGHLY debated, and most people think he has the advantage (or at least most people who actually give evidence), and a good number of chars have been brought up as MK counters (olimar, shiek, even jiggs O.o).

 

[Plairnkk]

Tell me, do they tornado you when it's easily punished? Because I didn't say they were bad unless they tornado you when you easily punish them.

Like, they tornado you and you punish them. Do they keep doing it after you demonstrate you're able to? If so, then no matter how good they are they're stupid.

No, they don't continue to tornado me. Which is why I'm saying tornado isn't as good as people make it out to be.

 

[Naucitos]

the tornado is easily punished unless it is used on you when you are in incapacitated(after an attack) and he is already close. In that instance, he has better options anyway. People usually say its one of his best approach, but if its used to approach its punishable.
I'd like to see the ground release, i've honestly never seen it, i hope theres a way to work around it, but if not i don't see losing it as THAT devastating though, since it still doesen't stop the grab from being disruptive and damaging

 

[M15t3R E]

the tornado is easily punished unless it is used on you when you are in incapacitated(after an attack) and he is already close. In that instance, he has better options anyway. People usually say its one of his best approach, but if its used to approach its punishable.
I'd like to see the ground release, i've honestly never seen it, i hope theres a way to work around it, but if not i don't see losing it as THAT devastating though, since it still doesen't stop the grab from being disruptive and damaging

MK anti-ban people keep spreading that lie. Tornado is NOT easily punished as an approach or if it's used in any way. You all know as well as I do that the Tornado moves very fast and you need a perfectly-timed well-ranged attack to hit through it. Either that, or attack the tornado from above with a dair, though no good MK will give you that opportunity.
After tornado has finished, the opponent is thrown slightly up into the air, and if the MK is smart he won't be too far off the ground and so he'll recover and move away long before the opponent can come back down and retaliate.