The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I say instead of banning MK, just ban Mach Tornado. Granted MK would still clearly be the best, but then at least some of the characters that could actually compete with him(DK,DDD), wouldn't be losing simply because of one move.

Lolwut? MK doesn't need his whorenado to win. He can just use his aerials, tilts, Dsmash, grabs, Up-B, and glide attack and he's still broken.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah. Me, Chillin, Neo, Dojo, a lot of Washington and Texas, Lousiana... it's just coincidence that our numbers are growing and those opposing the ban are shrinking.

Excuse me?

M2K, Azn, AZ, I don't know about regions, even if the numbers are shrinking, there are still a good number of intelligent people opposing the ban.

 

[ThaRoy]

I say instead of banning MK, just ban Mach Tornado. Granted MK would still clearly be the best, but then at least some of the characters that could actually compete with him(DK,DDD), wouldn't be losing simply because of one move.

Et Tu Common Sense?

 

[darkspatan117]

ppl still think that mk is only top tier for is whorenado sigh .....

 

[Overswarm]

Excuse me?

M2K, Azn, AZ, I don't know about regions, even if the numbers are shrinking, there are still a good number of intelligent people opposing the ban.

Hmmmm......


Besides, I said our numbers are growing, yours are shrinking. What does what you said have to do with anything?

 

[Kookie]

I can smell the tension already.

Everyone, smell it with me.

 

[Blackbelt]

Tell me if this is odd:


I think MK is perfectly bannable, as far as Singles tourneys are concerned.


But what about doubles tourneys?



I think he's just fine when used in doubles.

 

[LuigiKing]

Marth is 63:35 to 70:30 against Sonic.
MK is around 80:20 to 90:10.
Heck, does Marth even have an 80:20?
Oh, MK is, from what I've heard, might be false, 90:10 to Luigi too. o_O
Yeah... MK has **** match ups... Marth doesn't. Marth has lag... MK doesn't.

You sir are 100% correct. We Luigi mains complain about MK as much as Sonic players do, just because the matchup is so freaking impossible. Luigi and Sonic become totally UNVIABLE in tournaments due to MKs presence. As far as I'm concerned, I want MK banned just because I want to play the character I love so much.

Also, Praxis made a great point about comparing MK to Old Sagat instead of Akuma. I honestly thought I was reading something about brawl before I actually read Old Sagat and realized it was talking about SF, the thing is, the parallel is almost too perfect.

Anyway, continue arguing, I like reading this. The MK ban, I can assure you, has all of Idaho behind it (me) :D Just saying...

P.S. Praxis, you should ban MK at I.E. Smash and we can see how it goes ^_^ I seem to doubt that would fly with the huge amount of WA Meta players....

 

[Erow Devastates]

Goodbye metaknight.

 

[AlphaZealot]

AZ, there's a problem with the MK challenge. I've looked through the results, and while you've beaten the MK's, I've never even heard their names before. Every time I run in to a name that I HAVE heard of before, they're listed as a win (for example, Ally). There's even one name in there I recognize as a Pokemon Trainer main that doesn't even play MK that lost to you. And I don't see one well known MK player in there.

I strongly suspect that most of the people challenging you are non-MK mains or really poor players. Ally beat you and doesn't even main MK. I'm not saying this proves anything, but rather the opposite; the sheer number of wins you have DOESN'T prove something because it's mostly bad players.

The MK challenge is for fun and is to show that you can't just pick up MK in online play and win, unless you are a better player, because honestly Ally could probably beat me with 2/3rds of the cast (including Falcon).

In other words, the MK challenge somehow counts as practice/experience against MK when OS wants it to look like I have a lot of experience in the match up, but if I had never played an MK in a tournament, he would say that the online play was meaningless and that the matches count for nothing. I can actually go back and copy/paste quotes and you can see how his argument evolves to exclude any arguments that go against his premise.

So, OS, which is it, does online play somehow have meaning now? Because apparently you are saying that me playing against MK online should make me good against MK in real life.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would say its 65:35 Sonic vs Marth at worst. He isn't hard countered by Marth.

 

[M@v]

I say instead of banning MK, just ban Mach Tornado. Granted MK would still clearly be the best, but then at least some of the characters that could actually compete with him(DK,DDD), wouldn't be losing simply because of one move.

Mach tornado isnt even a major deal. Its so overrated. Shuttle loop is 10X better. Its....everything about him thats the problem.

 

[darkspatan117]

at best it is 70:30 for Marth but I think 65:35 accurate

 

[smasher?o.0]

man you guys are too worked up over this
my opinion= no "johns"
and if metaknight were unbeatable if the guy using it was pro
i dont think they'd make it on purpose
and metaknight is actually eaisily countered by some people
for instance lucario (projectile, strong, and powerful)
or captain falcon with his speed and power
normally i pick ike to deal with him or pikachu since down b gets a lot of MK's since MK needs to be close to attack
to beat MK its just common sense, which is "dont get hit"
which is hard i admit but its still common sense

 

[Overswarm]

So, OS, which is it, does online play somehow have meaning now? Because apparently you are saying that me playing against MK online should make me good against MK in real life.

Playing online allows you to learn basic parts of matchups; past that, it doesn't show much.

 

[Steel]

man you guys are too worked up over this
my opinion= no "johns"
and if metaknight were unbeatable if the guy using it was pro
i dont think they'd make it on purpose
and metaknight is actually eaisily countered by some people
for instance lucario (projectile, strong, and powerful)
or captain falcon with his speed and power
normally i pick ike to deal with him or pikachu since down b gets a lot of MK's since MK needs to be close to attack
to beat MK its just common sense, which is "dont get hit"
which is hard i admit but its still common sense

This is good stuff right here.

 

[AgentJGV]

Meta knight can be beaten. want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXbZratm0E0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF68fu-ZY0w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTSXI_EJ1w&feature=related
there ya go

 

[Blackbelt]

Meta knight can be beaten. want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXbZratm0E0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF68fu-ZY0w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTSXI_EJ1w&feature=related
there ya go

That MK wasn't all that good.

 

[Steel]

When did we say meta was unbeatable?

 

[AgentJGV]

When did we say meta was unbeatable?

why else would there be people in favor of a ban?

 

[M.K]

Meta knight can be beaten. want proof?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXbZratm0E0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF68fu-ZY0w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyTSXI_EJ1w&feature=related
there ya go

Wow, showing us that an obviously more skilled player can beat another is sure proof to why he shouldn't be banned -_-.

 

[AgentJGV]

Wow, showing us that an obviously more skilled player can beat another is sure proof to why he shouldn't be banned -_-.

It showed that its more of a test of skill with the game than the actual character.

Also, I would Eggz and Gimpy on the same level.

 

[DRaGZ]

man you guys are too worked up over this
my opinion= no "johns"
and if metaknight were unbeatable if the guy using it was pro
i dont think they'd make it on purpose
and metaknight is actually eaisily countered by some people
for instance lucario (projectile, strong, and powerful)
or captain falcon with his speed and power
normally i pick ike to deal with him or pikachu since down b gets a lot of MK's since MK needs to be close to attack
to beat MK its just common sense, which is "dont get hit"
which is hard i admit but its still common sense

Lol, Falcon with speed and power.

And thunder gets to sooooo many MKs. And Ike's reach is soooo long and powerful that MK doesn't stand a chance!

 

[Binx]

LOL people make me cry inside sometimes

 

[Blackbelt]

LOL people make me cry inside sometimes

Welcome to Earth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hmmmm......

He's not stupid.

He's smart enough to know what the hell he's talking about at times.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5581705&postcount=5588

He knows the game well, ignoring the fact he made a few "attacks" on you, to say he's a moron is far from the truth.

Besides, I said our numbers are growing, yours are shrinking. What does what you said have to do with anything?

That your numbers increasing could mean jack if the people joining your side have no clue what the hell they're talking about.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It showed that its more of a test of skill with the game than the actual character.

Also, I would Eggz and Gimpy on the same level.

No they aren't.

 

[GofG]

Also, Praxis made a great point about comparing MK to Old Sagat instead of Akuma. I honestly thought I was reading something about brawl before I actually read Old Sagat and realized it was talking about SF, the thing is, the parallel is almost too perfect.

Howcome when I said this on the SAME PAGE in a huge, thread-winning type post, no one even mentioned it, and when Praxis says it, a bunch of people are like "Oh my god, I get it now, it's so simple when he says it, Old Sagat is Metaknight!"?

 

[DRaGZ]

He's not stupid.

He's smart enough to know what the hell he's doing.



That your numbers increasing could mean jack if the people joining your side have no clue what the hell they're talking about.

M2K isn't dumb, but he's not unbiased either.

Also, decision by majority has nothing to do with intelligence or morality, just what all of the people want. And with an issue as socially trivial as banning a character in a video game, those two problems don't even matter anyway.

So the democratic process it is. Hooray!

 

[IShotLazer]

Snake is MK's counter. UNLESS the MK can gimp him off stage which is hard to do against a good snake.


Just because More scrubs are banning together and saying MK counters Snake doesnt mean its true.
I never realized how many nubs are on smash boards...

You're completely ignorant. Sorry about my bluntness but I mean... first off you're saying that people that think snake is countered by metaknight are "nubs" and second off you're DEAD wrong. Have you even been to a freakin tournament? M2K makes Snake look like a play thing...
WITHOUT dedede. Most other Metaknights do the same exact thing.
Also a good snake has about the same options as any other snake off the ledge. UP B. That's about all you can do... It's not like he has too many options coming back...

man you guys are too worked up over this
my opinion= no "johns"
and if metaknight were unbeatable if the guy using it was pro
i dont think they'd make it on purpose
and metaknight is actually eaisily countered by some people
for instance lucario (projectile, strong, and powerful)
or captain falcon with his speed and power
normally i pick ike to deal with him or pikachu since down b gets a lot of MK's since MK needs to be close to attack
to beat MK its just common sense, which is "dont get hit"
which is hard i admit but its still common sense

You act like they made a balanced game and were omnipotent in their foresight of the development of the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

M2K isn't dumb, but he's not unbiased either.

Also, decision by majority has nothing to do with intelligence or morality, just what all of the people want. And with an issue as socially trivial as banning a character in a video game, those two problems don't even matter anyway.

So the democratic process it is. Hooray!

Everyone has some bias to some extent on this matter.

In the case of intelligence vs social want, if the people arguing for it don't know what they are talking about or even the depth of the problem, they shouldn't be asking for a solution when it isn't as simple as adding one to one.

It's just like the USA's economic problems. Most people don't know why it happened or even what people are suggesting to do about it exactly. If they can't understand the facts around the problem, they shouldn't be taking a stance in the first place.

 

[DRaGZ]

Everyone has some bias to some extent on this matter.

In the case of intelligence vs social want, if the people arguing for it don't know what they are talking about or even the depth of the problem, they shouldn't be asking for a solution when it isn't as simple as adding one to one.

It's just like the USA's economic problems. Most people don't know why it happened or even what people are suggesting to do about it exactly. If they can't understand the facts around the problem, they shouldn't be taking a stance in the first place.

It's more of a matter of the ratio of bias to social power.

M2K and OS both have a lot of social power, but they are both extremely biased, ie they should recognize this and be more conservative in their opinions, imo.

Also, the issue of the US economy is a 1000x more complex than this issue, so it's not as easily comparable. There are far fewer things you need to know about Brawl than there is about Wall Street and sup-prime loans.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sirlin is not an authority on Smash, and smash is a unique fighter.

True, however his overall concepts are good.

Ironically, his generalities matter, but due to lack of understanding of the game, his analysis of what is warranted is going to be hopelessly flawed.

Unlike most other fighters, the concept of smash literally revolves around counterpicking. In other fighters they might have bad matchups, but in smash it is the heart of it. Metaknight breaks that mold, while every other character fits in it quite well.

Well, actually Marth can't be counter-picked as well.

But, with a small number of exceptions, his his match-ups are close enough to neutral that you simply can play your character, counter-picking doesn't really have an advantage.


Overall, because the metagame revolves around counter-picking, that the reason why MK overcentralizes the metagame. Realistically, it's not WHY a character makes too many characters unviable, it's the fact that this character makes them unviable.

Any reasoning beyond that is superfluous given the ban criteria.

Good stuff about Sirlin and playing to win

Speaking of which, I debated you on exactly that point and pulled out old Sagat in the original thread.

Welcome to the dark side dude.

You completely misunderstood me.

I never ONCE said Marth was as good as MK, I was just saying that he has no bad matchups, so OS's argument that everyone else can be counterpicked isn't true.

EDIT: You people need to read my posts. I never once said that Marth was as good as MK!

I feel your pain, they did the same thing to me.

I've been making that comparison since forever.

Not as long as me, I was saying it when Snake was still top.

Marth is 63:35 to 70:30 against Sonic.
MK is around 80:20 to 90:10.
Heck, does Marth even have an 80:20?

Ganondorf :D.

Yoshi isn't that great against MK. He actually has a distinct disadvantage vs. MK. Yoshi just does better against MK than the rest of the low/mid tier characters which have **** matchups vs. MK. Point is it's still a bad matchup for Yoshi.

Actually, very tiny. Basically, they both beat each other's approaches.

When did I even imply that? Marth does have matches not in his favor, whether you see them as neutral or not is just a matter of perception. But that's how the Marth boards see it, he has disadvantageous match ups.

I compared Marth and Meta gameplay wise because opponent's can exploit Marth's weaknesses when they fight him. There really isn't much to exploit with Meta besides the fact that he is light, and that's not really a big deal >_>

More important to the counter-picking point is not the fact that a character has disadvantagious match-ups, it's by how much.

Basically, a Snake main is at a very slight advantage against Marth, but it's useless to counter-pick Snake if you're a character that loses to Marth by a reletively small margin. The advantage doesn't balance out the lesser expirience in the character, even if it's a secondary.

CHAIN GRABS AMIRITE??

Seriously, good meta's aren't going to fall for that stuff. Once they realize how to play against Yoshi they learn to not get grabbed by him. Then what is Yoshi going to do? He has no answers to get past Meta's sword. If Yoshi is so disad'd against Marth, who is not as good of a character but yet so very similar, how does he go even with Meta?

Yoshi's you are being too hopeful. It may not be a **** match, but Meta definitely has the advantage.

"Don't get grabbed" is true, but there's a problem.

Unlike a lot of characters in this situation, Yoshi has a good grab range, sure it's slow, but something fixes that...

Yoshi's pivot grab is godly, and at last estimate, beats EVERY SINGLE MK APPROACH.

The problem? Yoshi can't force him to approach...

That's why it's only a slight advantage.

Then why are you part of this discussion Emblem Lord if you have nothing more to say other than common bashing. It's not like we haven't been told our character sucks a thousand times before >_>

I think you don't quite understand, Emblem Lord is very cynical. As far as he's concerned, if you're not MK, and possibly Snake (don't know what he's been saying about Snake recently), you're trash.

Basically, he emphasizes these things a little too much, but once you understand him, it doesn't mean much, I think he uses "trash" way too broadly for it to be an insult.

 

[Steel]

I understand that.

So... Meta doesn't approach. >_> Yoshi still can't do anything vs Meta's dtilt and overall zoning.

In super-theory Marth could up b everything, and in super-theory Yoshi can pivot grab all aerial approaches by Meta. But we aren't super humans, and Meta doesn't have to rely on approaches that will get him grabbed.

 

[M@v]

The thing I find funny is that the term"MK counter" means that the character might go even with mk. I mean seriously.
I would argue why MK needs a ban, but people have pretty much stated them all, and OS summed it up in a nutshell.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's more of a matter of the ratio of bias to social power.

M2K and OS both have a lot of social power, but they are both extremely biased, ie they should recognize this and be more conservative in their opinions, imo.

I agree with this.

But it still doesn't change the fact M2K isn't an idiot, bias or not.

You don't think so, OS does.

Also, the issue of the US economy is a 1000x more complex than this issue, so it's not as easily comparable. There are far fewer things you need to know about Brawl than there is about Wall Street and sup-prime loans.

I needed a comparison that was more up to date and relate able to more people.

It's complex, but it gets the general idea across, if people don;t know even the basics of the problem, they shouldn't be taking a stance on the subject.

 

[smasher?o.0]

This is good stuff right here.

thank you
and the person who said my point of view is they made it omnipotent (forgot the name sorry
)
basically that's what they did but they let others be more diverse so there are advantages and disadvantageous otherwise the game would be horrible.

 

[darkspatan117]

Yoshi lose to a lot of char sure he stand out better against MK than pretty much the rest of the cast but it doesn't mean he is a good and what Yoshi good is his egg and pivot grab on MK and CG but that alone can't even it up. If Yoshi shield dtilt he is in serious trouble and Mk can react too pretty much anything Yoshi try and he has a better air game Still Yoshi is thrash in pretty much every smash game he was in

 

[DRaGZ]

thank you
and the person who said my point of view is they made it omnipotent (forgot the name sorry
)
basically that's what they did but they let others be more diverse so there are advantages and disadvantageous otherwise the game would be horrible.

You know he was being sarcastic, right?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I understand that.

So... Meta doesn't approach. >_> Yoshi still can't do anything vs Meta's dtilt and overall zoning.

In super-theory Marth could up b everything, and in super-theory Yoshi can pivot grab all aerial approaches by Meta. But we aren't super humans, and Meta doesn't have to rely on approaches that will get him grabbed.

and here is where MKs ease of play comes in,

you pretty much have to play picture perfect in order to hope to be on neutral ground with MK, while he cna be NOTICIBLY sloppy with his play and still most likely beat you


also i agree with the pgh dude wholeheartedly