The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[ShadowLink84]

That MK is simply not ban worthy currently.
Even if he went 60:40 it wouldn't mean he should be banned.
For example Yun in SF 3rd strike goes 60:40 with everyone. He isn't banned.

Now of course many say, well look at how he behaves with the CP system. yes MK is the most CP resilient character. That is understandable, however that doesn't mean he is ban worthy, why? Him being Cp resilient doesn't hurt the metagame.
Yes it means MK is the safest choice, but not the best choice in every given situation.
MK is dominant, but not so dominant that he causes overcentralization. He centralizes yes, its a given though he's the best in the game. He doesn't d it to the point that it breaks the game.

So even if MK is the number 1 character and the only top tier, he isn't ban worthy because while he may go 60:40 with everyone and is CP resilient, he doesn't break the game are cause stagnation.
60:40 is VERY winnable.
Him being so very beatable also contributes to him not being ban worthy.

I could go on but I need a keyboard replacement for my laptop.

 

[Mmac]

That MK is simply not ban worthy currently.
Even if he went 60:40 it wouldn't mean he should be banned.
For example Yun in SF 3rd strike goes 60:40 with everyone. He isn't banned.

Thats not exactly true at all. Ken goes even with Yun, and Chun Li destroys almost everyone EXCEPT Yun. In fact, Chun Li's only disadvantaged matchup is Yun, and Ken's is Chun Li. Both Matchups are very winnable. Basically it revolves around those characters, with Makoto and Dudley following closely.

Sound like how Melee was to me, honestly.... You can't compare 3rd Strike to Brawl. MetaKnight might be compared to Yun, but Snake is not Ken, and Dedede is not Chun Li.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats not exactly true at all. Ken goes even with Yun, and Chun Li destroys almost everyone EXCEPT Yun. In fact, Chun Li's only disadvantaged matchup is Yun, and Ken's is Chun Li. Both Matchups are very winnable. Basically it revolves around those characters, with Makoto and Dudley following closely.

Sound like how Melee was to me, honestly.... You can't compare 3rd Strike to Brawl. MetaKnight might be compared to Yun, but Snake is not Ken, and Dedede is not Chun Li.

Hence why I did not menion Chun li, or Ken only the comparison of Yun to MK.
I heard recently that Yun has an advantage on Ken.

Chun Li doesn't destroy everyone except Yun if I recall correctly she has a few disadvantaged matchups

 

[Justblaze647]

Sound like how Melee was to me, honestly.... You can't compare 3rd Strike to Brawl. MetaKnight might be compared to Yun, but Snake is not Ken, and Dedede is not Chun Li.

QFT and sigged...

 

[Mmac]

I dunno, That is from what I remember, and some quick searching seems to conclude it...

But my point is that you Can't just focus on MetaKnight himself when comparing to other fighting games. You need to look into the other characters too and how they fair against, In this case, Yun, and the other Top Tier around him. MetaKnight is in a tier of his own because the other top tiers cant at all compete in his level. Yun isn't because the Characters around him can.

This is why people want him banned because the other Higher Tiered characters just can't compete because they have too many flaws. MetaKnight is Flawless, but the rest are far from it.

 

[IC3MAN11]

What it depends on is the person who plays with Mk. Everyone has a weak point, everyone has someone else that's just that much better than him or her. Metaknight is an excellent fighter, no doubt about it and he does have advantages over all other characters, but that doesn't mean that the tournaments are between the characters. The Tournaments are between the players themselves, and I personally prefer playing with competitors, not whiners...

 

[thumbswayup]

I have little doubt that once the metagame matures, the talk of MK bans will be even worse than it is now. Why? Because the anti-banned people speaks of the metagame not being matured, meaning no character is at their top level of their game (which is true, the Mario boards just recently discovered an awesome AT). But I don't believe that matters, because if the previous statement is true, that also goes for Metaknight.

This isn't Melee. There's not a ton of techs that can be used to allow others to push the match in their favor. Metaknight is obviously, clearly, downright broken. If you disagree with that then you should set yourself on fire. Nothing in Brawl will counter the fact that Metaknight is virtually lagless on all attacks, has unrealistic hitboxes, an awesome recovery, and is the master of gimping. Who gives a **** if he's light? You gotta hit him first!

In short, I do agree that it's too early to ban Metaknight since there's always that chance of me being wrong, and something awesome comes in for the rest of the characters to be able to settle the score with Metaknight. However, I severely doubt this, and I do expect to see Metaknight be banned in about a year or two.

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA man I just saw this and I can't stop laughing LOL well put

 

[slikvik]

so yea...Ninjalink beat m2k again yesterday...****. lost the rematch set in losers but he coulda won that too

 

[ShadowLink84]

I dunno, That is from what I remember, and some quick searching seems to conclude it...

But my point is that you Can't just focus on MetaKnight himself when comparing to other fighting games. You need to look into the other characters too and how they fair against, In this case, Yun, and the other Top Tier around him. MetaKnight is in a tier of his own because the other top tiers cant at all compete in his level. Yun isn't because the Characters around him can.

This is why people want him banned because the other Higher Tiered characters just can't compete because they have too many flaws. MetaKnight is Flawless, but the rest are far from it.

so? Even if a character is flawless by no means does that automatically dictate he should be banned or considered for a ban.
Yes MK has no true exploitable weaknesses but he isn't invincible either. your opponent still needs to fight tooth and nail if they want to win.

the comparison to Yun is strictly based on matchups.
r if you would like we can look at Old Sagat who is clearly better than other characters in his game. He doesn't have any flaws (if he does they are few) while every other character has many more flaws than him.

He just doesn't cause that much of overcentralizing to warrant a ban.

 

[NinjaLink]

so yea...Ninjalink beat m2k again yesterday...****. lost the rematch set in losers but he coulda won that too

U already kno slik i wanted to go home. ***** flu. We all split anyway lol

 

[Mmac]

Uh, Old Sagat WAS Banned in some locations I believe. Shadowlink.

But you are missing the main point of my statement, that YOU are only focusing on MetaKnight and MetaKnight only for comparisons when comparing to other fighting games. You can't compare him to Yun because Ken, Chun Li, and Makoto are just as good as he is, and can compete. You can't compare to Old Sagat because he is technically banned.

 

[The Real Inferno]

That's actually true, Old Sagat does have a history of being banned in some regions. He's also never been exceedingly popular in America despite being the best character. This is probably because his playstyle is relatively simplistic and "boring" in comparison to the other top characters. He's stillr ather dominant though as the best character always manages to attract mains popularity or not.

 

[teekay]

He's "soft banned" in Japan as well, which if I recall correctly is the only kind of banning they have on Akuma for the most part.

However it is not correct to say that Old Sagat is "technically" banned since "technically" he really isn't, maybe in some regions but not ever in national or international tournaments that I'm aware of.

I'm staying out of this for the most part, but I thought that was worth pointing out.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Uh, Old Sagat WAS Banned in some locations I believe. Shadowlink.

But you are missing the main point of my statement, that YOU are only focusing on MetaKnight and MetaKnight only for comparisons when comparing to other fighting games. You can't compare him to Yun because Ken, Chun Li, and Makoto are just as good as he is, and can compete. You can't compare to Old Sagat because he is technically banned.

That is not necessarily true. The other characters would only serve to prove that in SF 3s, the game was better balanced because you had three other characters who could compete with him.
MK is very similar to Yun in that he has no bad matchups.
Its the fact that brawl lacks a Ken, Chun Li and Makoto.
That is why MK seems so much worse, there isn't really anyone that is as good as him.


Old Sagat was banned in some regions? Thats understandable, he isn't very well liked and Serlin also said he was considered borderline ban worthy.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Like Sirlin.net? Or is Serlin someone else? I knew he was doing a newbie guide to Brawl but I didn't know he had any articles on it. Link?

Edit: Whoops. Read that wrong. You're talking about Sagat. My bad. =P

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're Too Slooow!

 

[BentoBox]

Is sirlin the same sirlin that's the lead designer for ssf2thdremix? XD

 

[The Real Inferno]

yes he is, Bento

 

[adumbrodeus]

That is not necessarily true. The other characters would only serve to prove that in SF 3s, the game was better balanced because you had three other characters who could compete with him.
MK is very similar to Yun in that he has no bad matchups.
Its the fact that brawl lacks a Ken, Chun Li and Makoto.
That is why MK seems so much worse, there isn't really anyone that is as good as him.

I think that's the point.

The fact that there's nobody who is as good as MK is the substantiative difference. Because bans aren't taking into account JUST individual characters, they also must take the metagame as a whole into account.

So the fact that Brawl lacks Ken, Chun Li, and Makoto a crucial point that makes MK different.

Old Sagat was banned in some regions? Thats understandable, he isn't very well liked and Serlin also said he was considered borderline ban worthy.

So are infinites in this game, that doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

 

[SuperBraxton713]

To be honest, I believe Meta Knight should be banned until we can find SOME sort of weakness BESIDES using Yoshi. Meta Knight's speedy moves, his Priority, his over all Move set is 76% agreeable to be banned or just removed from further tournaments.
And as said before, Melee didn't have such a broken character, not even in SSB. :|


If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll just summarize it under this sentence.
Meta Knight should be banned Tournaments (Or removed temporarily until we find a reasonable weakness for Meta Knight:

He's priority is little bit too good.
Some of his moves are just to powerful. *Not including his killing moves*
Even Snake has a slight disadvantage against Meta Knight, despite being as good as he is.
Only Few characters have a 50/50 chance against Meta Knight.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta Knight kills new players, angers professionals, and is over all annoying and too good for standard play right now. Until we can find a weakness, he should be banned. I may be wrong, I may be a noob, but in all my years of playing games (16 years), I've never seen such a over-powered character in any fighting game, I almost have to compare Meta Knight to Light Yagami on M.U.G.E.N.

~SuperBraxton713

 

[St. Viers]

why man, why?

 

[adumbrodeus]

To be honest, I believe Meta Knight should be banned until we can find SOME sort of weakness BESIDES using Yoshi. Meta Knight's speedy moves, his Priority, his over all Move set is 76% agreeable to be banned or just removed from further tournaments.
And as said before, Melee didn't have such a broken character, not even in SSB. :|


If that doesn't make sense to you, I'll just summarize it under this sentence.
Meta Knight should be banned Tournaments (Or removed temporarily until we find a reasonable weakness for Meta Knight:

He's priority is little bit too good.
Some of his moves are just to powerful. *Not including his killing moves*
Even Snake has a slight disadvantage against Meta Knight, despite being as good as he is.
Only Few characters have a 50/50 chance against Meta Knight.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta Knight kills new players, angers professionals, and is over all annoying and too good for standard play right now. Until we can find a weakness, he should be banned. I may be wrong, I may be a noob, but in all my years of playing games (16 years), I've never seen such a over-powered character in any fighting game, I almost have to compare Meta Knight to Light Yagami on M.U.G.E.N.

~SuperBraxton713

That's the best way to make sure that nothing will ever be found to counter MK...


Removing a character from the metagame makes it more DIFFICULT to find weaknesses, not less.

why man, why?

He necroed it?

Didn't notice at all, until now.

 

[Greenpoe]

I believe that Brawl will become less popular until it falls earlier than it could potentially, unless proactive TO's take action: Brawl+ tournaments or no MK tournaments will help the game in the long run.

 

[salaboB]

That's the best way to make sure that nothing will ever be found to counter MK...


Removing a character from the metagame makes it more DIFFICULT to find weaknesses, not less.

Debatable.

It depends on whether the issue is testing against that character until you find a flaw, or developing other characters until you discover a new ability. The former will be hurt by removing the overplayed character, the latter helped (By more people sinking time into other characters instead).

 

[Falconv1.0]

lol people really still want MK banned. I love how the guy who necro'd this said we need to find more options besides yoshi.

I would like to direct your attention to Falco and Snake and I'd think Diddy as well. (if edgestalling isn't banned then Falco is kinda screwed, but edgestalling should be ****ing banned)

GG.

 

[SuperBraxton713]

That's the best way to make sure that nothing will ever be found to counter MK...


Removing a character from the metagame makes it more DIFFICULT to find weaknesses, not less.




He necroed it?

Didn't notice at all, until now.

If I said remove from Metagame, I'm sorry, I meant to say ban from tournaments until we find some kind of advantage to Meta Knight.

 

[SuperBraxton713]

Well. I've been discussing this with a clan I am in.

Here's what I've gotten:

Playing Meta Knight is going to make you better.
Meta Knight is a bit over powered, but shouldn't be banned.
Meta Knight spammers give Meta Knight a really bad name, or over exaggeration.
Removing Meta Knight from tournaments will bring out more banning, such as going after Snake.

Meta Knight may be just a little over power, but like some people have said before he's beatable. We all just need to figure out how.

*Epic Music plays* EVERYONE, SEARCH FOR META KNIGHTS WEAKNESS!

lawls.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>_> "Clan?"

Oh, Lord.

Why did this topic get bumped?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tenki]

We have frame data, and also empirically proved that Metaknight is punishable out of shield.

Okay, well, maybe we didn't empirically prove it, but Metaknight is punishable out of shield anyway.

9_9; though, I'd like to bring this up again, since this was the older, more lolful thread:

VEGETA, WHAT DOES YOUR SCOUTER SAY ABOUT THIS THREADS POWER LEVEL?

This thread.
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!​

On topic:

Like Metaknight.

Which needs complete frame data.

and just a bit later down the line, we diddd, we got frame data <3

 

[Falconv1.0]

If I said remove from Metagame, I'm sorry, I meant to say ban from tournaments until we find some kind of advantage to Meta Knight.

And I just stated some characters, I mean you listed his only bad match up as Yoshi. You're insane. Stop being a noob and acting like we dont already know his flaws.

 

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

lol @ this thread being revived from the grave. Metaknight spammers give him a bad name. >.>

 

[NinjaLink]

Apparently no one knows his flaws if ppl constantly lose to him.

 

[Justblaze647]

Apparently no one knows his flaws if ppl constantly lose to him.

lol @ NL being the exception to this rule...

 

[DQP]

mk is a good character, almost too good. but my g+w has been able to handle any mks thrown at me so far. and tenki's right, fox was like mk is now, and we didn't ban him. so as much as i hate mk, i think he should stay in the game. for now.

 

[Tenki]

and tenki's right, fox was like mk is now, and we didn't ban him. so as much as i hate mk, i think he should stay in the game. for now.

wa--

wait.

I thought it was only a fad on the Sonic boards to quote some opinion and imply that I said it lol.

 

[choknater]

Metaknight's only weakness is the player, IMO. Even at very high levels of play, an MK's playstyle can be analyzed and worked around. Perhaps if you're Diddy or Snake, you can use items to set up a brick wall that MK cannot work around. If you're DK or Peach, you can trade hits with MK because you will win in a war of attrition because MK is light. MK is superior in speed and range, but there is always a way to beat him as long as you know the other player. The MK is forced to play smart and skillfully, which is a good thing for competition. He is not unbeatable.

 

[Justblaze647]

So I guess the only question now is whether a set of matches is long enough to adapt to the MK player's playstyle?

 

[salaboB]

So I guess the only question now is whether a set of matches is long enough to adapt to the MK player's playstyle?

No, because choknater said the only weakness is the playstyle -- that means that he holds the advantage character versus character, so you must read your opponent's playstyle, adapt to it, and not have him adapt back to yours.

It translates to you must be the better player to beat MK.

 

[choknater]

Hahah, you guys better watch your opponent's matches if you see you might be up against him soon in the bracket ^_^. That's always a good strategy to have in a tournament scenario.

Playing friendlies against that person helps as well.

As long as you have mastered your respective character (and you don't have an EXTREMELY HORRENDOUS matchup against MK) it is possible to pull off a win. Last tournament I went to, I lost to Irow, a pretty good MK, and I lost since I had no MK experience and knew nothing about him and how well he does in the tournament scene.

Now, I follow Brawl tournaments a little more closely, and now that I have been playing MK for a while, I know his weaknesses, though very few. I have lost to Toon Links, Peaches, and Diddy Kongs because they have analyzed my playstyle and outplayed me. There are a lot of misconceptions about MK, but that's because people don't know how to use him. MK players need to dedicate a lot of thought and strategy into their moves too... to set up those very high brick walls for other characters. It's not a no-effort type of thing.

In my short conversation with TKD, he called it "easy" to beat MK with Snake because of a brick wall grenade camping strategy. And also, ftilt everything. Even matchups force the better player to win. Analyzing matchups when you're at a disadvantage can also make the better player win. AlphaZealot has said that M2K's MK is above and beyond anyone else's because he is smart and strategizes well in every matchup, including Diddy Kong who is considered even. There is no peak to skill level, and much of the skill in brawl comes from knowledge and analysis.

 

[Justblaze647]

Chok!!! Plz tell me you didn't switch your main to MK...

You're breakin' my Fuc*in' heart...