The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[rehab]

INB4COMPARISONSAREIMPOSSIBLELOLOL

In response to "he doesn't have a solid counter," for one thing that's debatable but for another many fighters have characters that "can't be counterpicked," forcing you to tough it out and play a match where the only determining factors are how good and experienced in the match you are relative to the other guy. Oh da** there goes the counterpicking system everybody loves so much. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have a nonsense BS thing on him like DK. Beyond pleasing some whiners there's no reason for us to start banning just so a lot of characters can get rid of an even or mildly disadvantaged match.

The reasons to play other people like Snake and Dedede for example is that MK isn't even everybody's worst matchup or anything, he's just a solid choice for every match. Dang I'll just drop all my experience with other characters and put it into MK and limit my CP choices to "good" instead of "*****" GG Brawl. I can do that with Fox too GG Melee. I can do that with Sagat too GG Turbo.

turned into a rambling post lol

 

[Falconv1.0]

I Think what Delta is trying to say is competitive play could just fall apart by his existance as a playable character. what we have seen in the recent tier update he shot up and will most likely continue to.

There really is no reason not to play him.
Even if it is competive play aren't video games supposed to be fun and based on skill as of who should win.
He destroys both concepts.

being that this thread exist he should ban lol

No, you're being stupid. There are reasons to not play Mk, get your head out of your ***. MK doesn't **** characters like DDD, he's just safe.


Quit making up bull**** guys, seriously. I use to say there was no reason to not play MK, and I am stupid for making that remark. CP'ing MK isn't always the answer, you cant pull out Mk and expect much more than a safe match. Mk simply has no hard counters that make cp'ing a must, and even then it's smarter to use MK/Snake than just MK.

Quit with the bull****, seriously.

 

[Tianxiazhai]

I dont see meta knight being banned in the near future.

 

[slikvik]

There are reasons to not play Mk

stopped reading there

 

[adumbrodeus]

stopped reading there

I'm playing against a DK main, do I really wanna play MK? I'm playing against a fox main, what about now?

10almostimpossiblematch-ups

 

[MorphedChaos]

I destroy MK as Wario, Wario owns MK in the air, and since MK HAS to approach Wario to do damage, I'm set, I'd even say its 6:4 in Wario's favor due to how easy MK is to kill. And MK is one of the few characters who can Gimp Wario, but Wario is still hard to Gimp, since his Airdodge is as powerful as a roll.

 

[Falconv1.0]

stopped reading there

Wow you're thick. Just plain thick. DDD has a 6/4 match up on Snake, MK is usually considered at a disadvantage against snake.

Wow that totally just shattered your belief to pieces you prick.

@Morphed Chaos-What the **** are you talking about, Wario's only aerial on MK is his uair.

 

[Greenpoe]

Wow you're thick. Just plain thick. DDD has a 6/4 match up on Snake, MK is usually considered at a disadvantage against snake.

Wow that totally just shattered your belief to pieces you prick.

@Morphed Chaos-What the **** are you talking about, Wario's only aerial on MK is his uair.

Snake is the closest thing there is to an MK counter, but Snake vs. MK is neutral at best.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Snake is the closest thing there is to an MK counter, but Snake vs. MK is neutral at best.

Please dont get people who will argue that with you to death in here, please. MK boards and most smart people view it as 55:45 or 6/4 for Snake if he doesn't get gimped, including the best ****ing MK player on the planet.

 

[slikvik]

I'm playing against a DK main, do I really wanna play MK? I'm playing against a fox main, what about now?

10almostimpossiblematch-ups

...

I destroy MK as Wario, Wario owns MK in the air, and since MK HAS to approach Wario to do damage, I'm set, I'd even say its 6:4 in Wario's favor due to how easy MK is to kill. And MK is one of the few characters who can Gimp Wario, but Wario is still hard to Gimp, since his Airdodge is as powerful as a roll.

...

Wow you're thick. Just plain thick. DDD has a 6/4 match up on Snake, MK is usually considered at a disadvantage against snake.

Wow that totally just shattered your belief to pieces you prick.

@Morphed Chaos-What the **** are you talking about, Wario's only aerial on MK is his uair.

never mentioned snake...

also lol again at you thinking mk has bad match-ups...

 

[Maniclysane]

Wow you're thick. Just plain thick. DDD has a 6/4 match up on Snake, MK is usually considered at a disadvantage against snake.

Wow that totally just shattered your belief to pieces you prick.

@Morphed Chaos-What the **** are you talking about, Wario's only aerial on MK is his uair.

Lol. You're so good at arguing man. After you called him a prick you convinced me.

 

[Falconv1.0]

also lol again at you thinking mk has bad match-ups...

55:45 match ups as agreed on by many MK mains doesn't exactly sound like a good ****ing match up does it???????

@Maniclysane-I am assuming that was sarcasm. Tell me otherwise. =/

 

[AndrewCarlson]

The Meta Knight boards have the Snake match-up as 55:45 in Meta Knight's favor. The Snake boards also agree with this ratio.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175515

 

[aeghrur]

Wait, Fox is advantaged against MK???
SINCE WHEN??? o_O Unless... it's like Melee fox or something...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I destroy MK as Wario, Wario owns MK in the air, and since MK HAS to approach Wario to do damage, I'm set, I'd even say its 6:4 in Wario's favor due to how easy MK is to kill. And MK is one of the few characters who can Gimp Wario, but Wario is still hard to Gimp, since his Airdodge is as powerful as a roll.

...

wow

Of course I should've known, WARIO is the mk counter!

10sarcasms

...

Since you obviously missed the point, let me spell this out for you.

Sure, MK has the advantage, but in both cases there are FAR superior choices.

Namely, DDD and Pikach/Sheik respectively.


Having a better option IS a reason not to play MK.

Please dont get people who will argue that with you to death in here, please. MK boards and most smart people view it as 55:45 or 6/4 for Snake if he doesn't get gimped, including the best ****ing MK player on the planet.

...

It's 55-45, MK's advantage.

Not even M2K thinks it's Snake's advantage anymore, by the end of the "ban Mk" thread (both anti-ban btw), he had relented to 55-45, and after he faced ally, he reconsidered and said that it's a 50-50.

Inui still thinks it's Snake's advantage (I believe), but beyond that, not many people, top-level or otherwise.


Realistically, MK outspaces everything that Snake can do safely because of his amazing Dtilt. That includes grenade explosions centered on Snake (I'm pretty sure you get what I mean by this).

The only thing is that the spacing margins are very thin, and because of MK's lower weight, a trade-off is definitely in Snake's advantage.

That and grenades can disrupt Mk's aerial combing considerably.


Lol, seriously, without the grenades this would be a horrible Snake match-up.

Wait, Fox is advantaged against MK???
SINCE WHEN??? o_O Unless... it's like Melee fox or something...

Lol, we drop melee fox in, make his combos and stuff work exactly like in melee and make his attributes the exact same.

Vs. MK, who would win?

 

[Turbo Ether]

MK vs Snake is 50/50 and they both have no bad matchups. No, DDD does not beat Snake. No I will not theorycraft. Yes, this is my opinion based on the current top level metagame in Atlantic North + Ally. Understandable if you disagree for whatever reason. No, I won't formulate a rebuttal, because that would be a pointless waste of time. There're other topics I would much rather discuss in depth, like delicious white girls and Chinese food. Just thought i'd chime in.

 

[slikvik]

Since you obviously missed the point, let me spell this out for you.

Sure, MK has the advantage, but in both cases there are FAR superior choices.

Namely, DDD and Pikach/Sheik respectively.


Having a better option IS a reason not to play MK.

I don't know why I'm still responding to the guy who said the fox and DK beat mk but whatever. Mk does not have a single match-up that he does not have an advantage or go roughly even in(snake lol). That's why there is no reason not to play to play mk. Especially when factoring rules such as double blind picks and advanced slobs. All I need to do is use mk and virtually be guaranteed no bad match-ups. If you try to argue that just because mk doesn't have the greatest advantage in all match-ups is a reason not to use him...

edit: lol@Ether. I'm def wasting my time. I don't know I dunno why I'm arguing with people who don't go to/place at tournies. I'm only responding to posts about black girls and caribbean food

 

[St. Viers]

...


Lol, we drop melee fox in, make his combos and stuff work exactly like in melee and make his attributes the exact same.

Vs. MK, who would win?

Good question--I', sure that MK would find some way to easily infinite fox, or be the wrong weight/traction to have shine be useful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't know why I'm still responding to the guy who said the fox and DK beat mk but whatever.

I don't believe he said that and even if he did, that does not mean his posts should be ignored.

Mk does not have a single match-up that he does not have an advantage or go roughly even in(snake lol). That's why there is no reason not to play to play mk. Especially when factoring rules such as double blind picks and advanced slobs. All I need to do is use mk and virtually be guaranteed no bad match-ups. If you try to argue that just because mk doesn't have the greatest advantage in all match-ups is a reason not to use him...

He is talking about when it comes to counterpicking in itself.As in, you know the opponent will be Fox.
in such cases there is no reason to pick MK when you have the better option available.
With advanced slobs and double blind, you are better off choosing MK since he naturally will have an advantage on whomever. Afterward, you're able to go to the better option which he was addressing.
You didn't refute his statement.

edit: lol@Ether. I'm def wasting my time. I don't know I dunno why I'm arguing with people who don't go to/place at tournies. I'm only responding to posts about black girls and caribbean food

A good number of the SBR doesn't often go to tournaments,and a number of members like don't often go to tournaments but are still very well respected and much of what they have stated has been proven to be true.

Last I checked, you did not need to go to a tournament and take first place in order to figure out the fact Marth can approach very safely,or that MK has an incredible rushdown game, or that the defensive game in Brawl is very powerful.

Seriously I get tired of this crap.
lol you don't place well at tournaments therefore, you don't understand anything lololol.
No,just,no.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Slikvik if you seriously mean to tell me that you're going to ignore the cp system aspect of tourneys, and that because I'm not a top player my opinions are not valid even though ****ing top players agree with this, then you're a ****ing idiot.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MK vs Snake is 50/50 and they both have no bad matchups. No, DDD does not beat Snake. No I will not theorycraft. Yes, this is my opinion based on the current top level metagame in Atlantic North + Ally. Understandable if you disagree for whatever reason. No, I won't formulate a rebuttal, because that would be a pointless waste of time.

So... you reject the applicability of the ACTUAL ATTRIBUTES of the character, and instead turn to tournament results which are skewed considerably by personal skill.

If I was amazing enough, I could win every tournament with Ganondorf. That'd be sweet.

There're other topics I would much rather discuss in depth, like delicious white girls and Chinese food. Just thought i'd chime in.

Please don't tell me you're one of those AA guys that only date white girls, 90% of the time that's basically a sub-conscious inferiority complex.


I love Chinese food though, always up for discussing Chinese food.

 

[aeghrur]

I just had Chinese food, although I just call it food.
Lunch was good.
And to me, Melee fox better be better than MK... or else I'll get melee marth to try and beat MK.

 

[St. Viers]

People. theory crafting =/= truth
tourney results =/= truth

theory crafting being testing in tournements over time = as close to truth as we can get, and usually that's good enough.

Also, just because someoen doesn't go to tourneys doesn't mean they don't know alot. The problem is people who theory craft without having it tested in tourneys, and people at tourneys not trying theorys out. You have to do both people.

Also, just as post count=/=skill, tourney attendance and placement =/= knowledge. And even if you have knowledge, it doens't neccessarly mean people whould believe you--look at M2K.

Pretty much people need to stop insulting the other side, and need to actually back theory up with results, and results need to be backed up with theory--meaning that if a fox is constently beating pikachus, than maybe there is something that makes the matchup fairer, rather than it being player skill. Not saying it will turn out to be the case, but you peopel have to check before saying it is/ isn't.

and yeah, asian food in general is just too good, though chinese may be the best.

 

[ShadowLink84]

People. theory crafting =/= truth
tourney results =/= truth

theory crafting being testing in tournements over time = as close to truth as we can get, and usually that's good enough.

Also, just because someoen doesn't go to tourneys doesn't mean they don't know alot. The problem is people who theory craft without having it tested in tourneys, and people at tourneys not trying theorys out. You have to do both people.

and yeah, asian food in general is just too good, though chinese may be the best.

I prefer pasta m'self.

 

[St. Viers]

Oh, you mean like dumplings, shadowlink? =P

[off topic]
why the hell do americans call dumplings chinese ravioli? They had it first...:?
[/off topic]

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So... you reject the applicability of the ACTUAL ATTRIBUTES of the character, and instead turn to tournament results which are skewed considerably by personal skill.

It might be true if it was only one specific tournament result. However, since this match-up has been played countless times (especially recently) in top-level play, it's more reliable to take them as an indicator for a match-up ratio. Theroycrafting is OK but once the match-up has been played enough we can assume to have enough practival experience in general to say that these results matter more than the theory.
Having few results is indeed not enough but once you get more and more of them you can see a clear trend that heavily implies that Snake vs MK is actually 5/5.

We have Chillin's Snake beating Planks MK with Snake...ok Chillin is a better player than Plank so it's natural for him to win unless the match-up is extremely one-sided.
We have M2K beating Allys Snake... well, it's fair to say that M2K > Ally, so him winning shouldn't be unexpected.
We have Candys Snake barely beating Forte's MK not so long ago ... two players who are about equal in skill, with one player winning without any notable difference (it was really a close set). We also have Candy beating Korn IIRC.

...

These results show a clear tendency: The choice of the character in this match-up has little consequence to the result: The better player wins either way (Chillin > Plank and M2K > Ally) while even players go really close (Candy ~=Forte).

These are - of course - just some examples that show that it's safe to assume that this match-up is even. The more results we have, the more obvious the ratio of the match-up will be...Results > Theory. This game is called Super Smash Bros. Brawl...not Super Theory Bros. Brawl.

The samecan be said about the D3 vs Snake match-upp. Why should I believe the match-up thread when I see Ally beating Atomsk, who is considered the world's best D3? And then I see Azen beating Ally with the same character? It's no secret that Azen > Atomsk and probably a tad better than Ally as well. Again it's merely the skill of the player that made the difference - after all Azen's D3 wasn't even that good apparently (according to M2K...) but as better player he managed to win, something Atomsk - who is actually "supposed" to be better with D3 - couldn't do.

I love Chinese food though, always up for discussing Chinese food.

I just had Chinese food, although I just call it food.
Lunch was good.
And to me, Melee fox better be better than MK... or else I'll get melee marth to try and beat MK.

Asian Food > Everything else. I loooooo~ve chinese but indian is great as well

 

[aeghrur]

Shadowlink is Pastafarian(he better be), Gheb is sexy, and asian food is delicious.
Look how far we have progressed in this thread. I think we can ban MK on these charges in about a month. :O

Oh, and why would anyone switch to Pika to play fox? I understand switching to D3 against DK, but pika to fox isn't THAT easy. =/

 

[St. Viers]

aeghur--apparently it is--it's ranked as 80:20, right? That translates into braindead victory, or something XD

 

[rehab]

Fox can (relatively) feasibly win if he violates his controller every time he's grabbed and super-camps hard

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh, you mean like dumplings, shadowlink? =P

yes

[off topic]
why the hell do americans call dumplings chinese ravioli? They had it first...:?
[/off topic]

We callit chinese ravioli?
News tome.

 

[St. Viers]

I see it in American-Chinese restaurants all the time, and hav heard people call it that. It's hard not to punch them in the face.

 

[bigarmybug]

Xsyven Edit: No Advertising.

 

[Hylian]

Lets keep the spam down please.

 

[Staco]

I think, if MK gets banned Snake would begin to dominate the game. He has no really bad Matchups and the Snake vs. DDD MU isnt as bad as people think.
There are maybe some characters, who stand a chance against Snake, but its the same with Metaknight.
There is nothing wrong about MK. He isnt unbeatable and at the end the better player wins (except you are using a crap tier).
There are people, which started to beat people with characters like Kirby and this isnt bad at all.

In the most other games you have to use better characters or you dont stand a chance.

And all higher characters have a chance against MK:

Snake, DDD, Falco, Diddy, GaW and so on ...

It doesnt seems to bad at all.

The only MK who is really winning everything is M2K and we all know, that he doesnt win because of his character only. All the other MKs dont win all the time. Theres nothing wrong with Meta.

 

[St. Viers]

I think, if MK gets banned Snake would begin to dominate the game. He has no really bad Matchups and the Snake vs. DDD MU isnt as bad as people think.
There are maybe some characters, who stand a chance against Snake, but its the same with Metaknight.
There is nothing wrong about MK. He isnt unbeatable and at the end the better player wins (except you are using a crap tier).
There are people, which started to beat people with characters like Kirby and this isnt bad at all.

In the most other games you have to use better characters or you dont stand a chance.

And all higher characters have a chance against MK:

Snake, DDD, Falco, Diddy, GaW and so on ...

It doesnt seems to bad at all.

The only MK who is really winning everything is M2K and we all know, that he doesnt win because of his character only. All the other MKs dont win all the time. Theres nothing wrong with Meta.

This has been discussed to death previously: to sum it up--The slippery slope argument doesn't apply to this case because of the sheer difference between what makes MK good and the rest of the cast, Snake, G&W, Marth etc included. MK is the best character, separated from the others (in some's minds) by half a tier. Even though who think that isn't the case admit the MK is without doubt the best character.

Even MK was removed, everone else has disadvantaged matchups, or at least more even ones, so it would be much harder to get teh support to try and ban another character.

 

[Staco]

Look at all this Smash Newbies taking the minds of other player.
It would be easy to ban Snake after banning MK.

Competitive play would be more lucrative without MK. Considering this game is going to be played until [if] the next SSB comes out, I would assume having as much of a lucrative tournament scene as possible would be valued greatly.

We're already going to great lengths, refusing to let go of SSB, to keep this game competitive. This game should not be played competitively, but we're just holding on. The amount of things that subtract from the competitive whole almost make it laughable. Banning MK is a way to help this, but this won't solve the asphyxiating problems that plague this game.

Do you really think the next Smash Game will be better as a competive game? Oo
Maybe it will be worse as Brawl to play it competive.
Be happy about having this game relatively balanced. (You have about 10 characters to use them competive and some players are winning with characters like Kirby, Pika, Luigi and so on)
There are other games where some characters have got at worst 70:30 MUs.

And if a character like Snake has got one bad matchup, but the rest of the MUs are in his oppinion and there are maybe a less amount of characters, which stand a good chance. This wouldnt make a difference. Or shall everyone start playing DDD?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

MK wins not more like 20% of the tourneys. Mostly he isnt the main character of the player, so that he has to use another character, too.
And MK wins much more at "casual player" tourneys, because he is much easier to play than Snake, Falco or Diddy but if the players are at a high level the difference between the characters is smaller.

And if you look at the top 8 results you will see that Snakes top 1/ top 2-8 is better than MKs top 1/top 2-8.

 

[BlueShield]

I think, if MK gets banned Snake would begin to dominate the game. He has no really bad Matchups and the Snake vs. DDD MU isnt as bad as people think.
There are maybe some characters, who stand a chance against Snake, but its the same with Metaknight.
There is nothing wrong about MK. He isnt unbeatable and at the end the better player wins (except you are using a crap tier).
There are people, which started to beat people with characters like Kirby and this isnt bad at all.

Here is the way I see it. The Tier list does things to people. I only believe it to a Certain extent and that everyone has their bad matchup but I'm not lying when the Tier List stinks. When people see the Tier List they're like. "Ohh hey MetaKnight seems to have the perfect matchup and only has a few only close ones. Maybe I should main him." So they do. They main him they master him they win a tourney. They use him again and people see that hey MK is beating me like jdlfkkldkgdlkjfsldk times. So they try MetaKnight they like MK and they win tourneys. This cycle keeps going on because people realize that MK is the perfect character. They see that they are up against a MK and they're like "OHH NOO! DDD:::"

MetaKnight is not perfect. He has his disadvantages just like everyone else. He's beatable. He may have the perfect matchup but he has his flaws. In the person using him and also in the character himself. Snake is propably one of the best counters for MK I know. Not Yoshi, Snake. Also DDD. MK is vulnerable to some people but to others he's just invincible. Sorry Captain Falcon... D:

I don't think MK should be banned.

 

[Justblaze647]

MK is SS tier.

I didnt even know there was a tier above S.

nuff said.

 

[Kage Me]

MK is SS tier.

I didnt even know there was a tier above S.

nuff said.

Until recently, there wasn't even an S tier <_<

MetaKnight is not perfect. He has his disadvantages just like everyone else. He's beatable. He may have the perfect matchup but he has his flaws. In the person using him and also in the character himself. Snake is propably one of the best counters for MK I know. Not Yoshi, Snake. Also DDD. MK is vulnerable to some people but to others he's just invincible. Sorry Captain Falcon... D:

The problem with Meta Knight is that while he has flaws (low weight and poor air speed), he can take three stocks off of you before you can exploit them with a Star KO...

 

[Nic64]

The problem with Meta Knight is that while he has flaws (low weight and poor air speed), he can take three stocks off of you before you can exploit them with a Star KO...

that's called getting outplayed