The Official Sheik in Brawl+ Discussion Thread

[Blistering Speed]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and converse about the specifics of Sheik in Brawl Plus. As there are currently no character specific forums for Brawl Plus, I thought this would be beneficial. For more information about Brawl Plus, please visit this link here.


Note: This thread is purely for the competitive discussion of Sheik involving Brawl Plus only, and disputes surrounding Brawl Plus as a part of the Smash series, the moral rights of modifying game design, or any other related unnecessary discussion will not be tolerated. This thread is to generate constructive discussion for Brawl Plus exclusively, and I will not hesitate to report you.

That's copied almost word for word from the MK thread, but I feel it's a good idea for every character board to have one of these, if not simply for a more concentrated character discussion then also for a introduction to Brawl+ and to dispel all the misconceptions surrounding it.

 

[Tristan_win]

~shrugs~ Sounds like a character forum should be made for Brawl+ as I know more of the frame data of other characters then what sheik can and cannot do in brawl plus needless to say how to balanced meta knight in compares to everyone else in Brawl+.

 

[Steel]

Well

She starts her tilt lock at 0%

Her throw combos are ****

She's pretty **** in brawl+ from my experience.

 

[KRDsonic]

Her Ftilt really needs to be nerfed in Brawl+, as in, increasing knockback just enough to keep her tilt lock from going from 0-100% easily.

I was unbeatable with Sheik in Brawl+ friendlies at HOBO 15 all because of her tilt lock being broken in it.

 

[shanus]

~shrugs~ Sounds like a character forum should be made for Brawl+ as I know more of the frame data of other characters then what sheik can and cannot do in brawl plus needless to say how to balanced meta knight in compares to everyone else in Brawl+.

MK isn't actually that broken anymore. He suffers from more knockback (he dies 10% earlier off the top now, about the same as jigglypuff now), his downsmash is slower, and his whorenado can no longer rise very much at all. As other characters have improved dramatically, he no longer seems on a tier of his own. Hope this helps.

Sheik's ftilt will be fixed when we get a knockback code to modify it with. She plays very well though.

 

[Greenpoe]

...need...fair...buff...

I just played Sheik against Squirtile and Kirby, and it's really clear how weak her KO ability is. She relies on gimps, but many characters are very difficult to gimp. Even her smashes (other than tippered u-smash) don't KO very well.

 

[Tristan_win]

Instead of the fair it might be better for sheik if her nair was strengthen that way she could still use her fair to do simple combos easily.

Also buffer the fsmash is 100% needed as it's sheiks slowest, weakest, longest cool down smash she has. IE garbage. Also making the set knock back on the first kick is also needed so to lower the chance of it missing.

Also if possible give sheik dair the same properties as Zss dair.

Program the game to pre load Sheik and Zelda information when choosing either of them to remove the loading time as well.

Do all of that and I'll

 

[Exia 00]

Sheik can KO easily in Brawl+ mainly because she can gimp a lot easier now. Her dair is not exactly the safest attack but its been fixed (less lag on landing) so i use it more. The first kick on the Fsmash is better cause the opponent gets stunned long enough to get hit by the second (most of the time) If i could buff anything it would be the chain. Its an okay attack but I feel it could be better. It's usages should be optimized (IMO)

 

[storm92]

Brawl+ Sheik is pretty great, I'd definitely have to say high tier or better.
Even with her Ftilt fixed with the KB growth and KB overall, I think that she can hang in there with the best due to her comboability, speed, and gimping ability.

I would love to see an Fair buff though, I think leafgreen proposed a faster Fair so we could do SHTFairs, and make it so a double Fair is a true combo.

The chain...how could we even fix that though? As a move itself, its pretty flawed, and the only use I've found for it in B+ is edgeguarding against some recoveries like spacies.

 

[Bandit]

F-tilt is back to melee style, but she is a combo machine. Aerials all lead into tilts which lead right back to aerials or USmash. Ftilt to Usmash tipper still happens around earlier kill percents depending on the weight of the character.

I was just starting to learn Sheik to compliment my Zelda in Brawl, but I have found I play a much better Sheik in B+ with the ability to combo. When her fair is buffed to melee standards, she will be a very good character.

 

[Revolce]

I think her ftilt needs to be nerfed a bit so you can't keep them in for...well ever, but still have it so it works a few times.
I think mainly we need to buff her fair. Not slightly, an actual buff so its almost as powerful as it was in melee (but not AS powerful, just almost)

 

[Flamingo]

Honestly I've probably played more brawl+ than all of you. I'm not trying to gloat, but it's probably the truth. Um. Sheik is definately top tier, and her ftilt is broken.. It needs to be nerfed. However, Sheik does have bad matchups, MK, Kirby, and IMO peach.

It's kind of annoying to play a game that actually punishes a player for trying to follow up and combo, a game that lets a player unskillfully recover with a ridiculous auto-sweetspot ledge window, with a completely ridiculous ledge invincibility timer to boot. This game is Brawl. Brawl+ has much more potential to be a competitive game that will separate the distance b/w Scrub and Pro, plus its just it's faster and more fun. For all of those who will probably say "go play melee" to this, I admit that B+ is trying to make Brawl with the majority of Melee physics, but the game is actually very different.

PS: Dont be a douche and ask greedily for buffs that we don't even need (Tristan) Dair is fine the way it is. FSmash is situational, and will remain so in B+. If you nerf our Ftilt, which needs to be nerfed.. give us a Fair boost, not Nair. Whoever said the chain was flawed is pretty uninformed. With increased sheild stun, it makes a very excellent device for crippling shields and with hitstun, you get more hits off with the chain before they can punish you.

Forgive the rant but seriously I find this game more fun than brawl and I want it to be as good as it can be.

And Shanus... MK really is that broken. Have you ever played a Snake? 1st hit of Ftilt combos into another 1st hit of Ftilt to about 80%. SNake does 40% more with brokenness then he Utilts. GG. Brawl+ still has a long way to go. I support the banning of MK, and possibly Snake in B+.

 

[Tristan_win]

Honestly I've probably played more brawl+ than all of you. I'm not trying to gloat, but it's probably the truth. Um. Sheik is definately top tier, and her ftilt is broken.. It needs to be nerfed. However, Sheik does have bad matchups, MK, Kirby, and IMO peach.

It's kind of annoying to play a game that actually punishes a player for trying to follow up and combo, a game that lets a player unskillfully recover with a ridiculous auto-sweetspot ledge window, with a completely ridiculous ledge invincibility timer to boot. This game is Brawl. Brawl+ has much more potential to be a competitive game that will separate the distance b/w Scrub and Pro, plus its just it's faster and more fun. For all of those who will probably say "go play melee" to this, I admit that B+ is trying to make Brawl with the majority of Melee physics, but the game is actually very different.

PS: Dont be a douche and ask greedily for buffs that we don't even need (Tristan) Dair is fine the way it is. FSmash is situational, and will remain so in B+. If you nerf our Ftilt, which needs to be nerfed.. give us a Fair boost, not Nair. Whoever said the chain was flawed is pretty uninformed. With increased sheild stun, it makes a very excellent device for crippling shields and with hitstun, you get more hits off with the chain before they can punish you.

Forgive the rant but seriously I find this game more fun than brawl and I want it to be as good as it can be.

And Shanus... MK really is that broken. Have you ever played a Snake? 1st hit of Ftilt combos into another 1st hit of Ftilt to about 80%. SNake does 40% more with brokenness then he Utilts. GG. Brawl+ still has a long way to go. I support the banning of MK, and possibly Snake in B+.

"Dair is fine the way it is" No it's not, it's a peice of garabe that has no use. How is that fine?

"Fsmash is situational" why is it that sheik has to have one of the few situational fsmashes in the game when characters like kirby can though it out like it's candy? It make sense if the fsmash was super strong like snakes but sheiks is not only weak but also slow. It just doesn't make sense for smash attack to be so sucky.

"Fair boost, not Nair" if you boost fair then you either lose your easily set up combos with fair or lose it as a tool for killing. Unless the brawl+ scene is going to remove decay the nair is the better choice as it's not as commonly used by sheik gameplay.

It's nice you play brawl+ a lot but that doesn't mean you have gain some great in site about what sheik needs. Right now everyone is saying there character is top tier which mean eventuality there will be a low tier. This is the time to strike, this is the time to ***** and moan until we fix this flaws in the sheik design so when everything is said and done sheik will be near the top.

 

[choknater]

lol............




Why play Brawl+?

Im kidding.

But yeah Sheik is too good, of course she is!

shes just way faster in brawl+ and she was already liek the fastest character in brawl lol

 

[Flamingo]

A quick Brawl+ move analysis (might make this a thread later and put in all moves, it's too late tonight):

Dair: I agree that it's a terrible move due to the startup lag, but when used as a mix-up on a grounded enemy, it provides a high amount of hitstun and combos easily into fair (Which should be buffed soon I hope). Probably what I hate the most about this attack is the telegraphed motion it has, if it was just a lingering hitbox like it was in melee, I think it would be a little better, but also like our Nair. What do you guys think?

Fair: I would greatly like this to be our killing move, it is great for edgeguarding, spacing (although I prefer bair myself against grounded opponents), punishing etc. Combos easily out of utilt, dtilt, ftilt, nair, throws... pretty much everything. Also, Fair combos into... Fair. just like it did in Brawl... only easier. Also with increased gravity and hitstun, you can SH Fair->Ftilt (or any ground move) then follow up with another Fair or anything. It's great for setups, and in Brawl+ it usually hits below a 180 degree trajectory which allows this combo with ground moves quite readily.

Nair: Great for punishing spotdodges due to it being a Sex kick. Great for pressuring shields, and goes great when you jab after a weak Nair due to sheildstun, and also is usually faster than any of the opponents responses. I hardly use this to KO in B+ although it is possible at... 130-140% probably.

Uair: I'm not really a fan... Sometimes I jump->Uair->second jump->Uair for quick % but usually I like stringing Fair. Eh, I never really was a fan of it in Brawl either... so maybe I'm biased.

Our grab game: Is great, but I wish we had a techchase throw like Sheik's Dthrow in Melee. I know that it was freakin' cheap, but I think it should be incorporated if possible into her game. (This can be done by having a set downward knockback... Sheik's current Dthrow has a %-dependant knockback, and probably can be made to be like G&W's.)


Extra:
Also, I've been working with needle combos. Guess what guys? AERIAL NEEDLE STORM AUTOCANCELS ON GROUND! :D :D :D

The only bad thing is, I think they turned down projectile hitstun as a whole to deal with Pit's arrows, rob's laser, etc and I think these needles have suffered too, but I believe if you use the now-2 frame buffering window to buffer the input of a ground attack (most preferably jab or Ftilt) it will be a true combo. Just throwing that out there.

Btw I play Sheik, Falco, Marth, and Captain Falcon in B+. If you want any help or advice, just contact me on AIM or PM.

Hope this helps, informes, or whatever. Let B+ reign! xD

"Fair boost, not Nair" if you boost fair then you either lose your easily set up combos with fair or lose it as a tool for killing. Unless the brawl+ scene is going to remove decay the nair is the better choice as it's not as commonly used by sheik gameplay.

Oh, and Tristan, the codeset I'm using has no knockback decay/stale move degradation. I think that Weak Nair is an extremely useful tool. Also, at mid-%'s a Strong Nair sends the enemy at a sharp horizontal trajectory fast, and usually the enemy doesn't get the tech, allowing us to follow up. Idk, I agree that stringing Fairs is an essential part to Sheik's game, but I see the need for one extra killing move without taking away the cool stuff that Nair does for Sheik already.
I admit that I may be totally and completely wrong, but I WANT a codeset to test with Sheik's Fair buffed, and Sheik's Nair buffed SEPARATELY so I can actually make an educated decision about this matter, and not having to delve into the theory of it. I believe that you will agree that until this happens, no clear decision can be made.

 

[shanus]

Honestly I've probably played more brawl+ than all of you. I'm not trying to gloat, but it's probably the truth. Um. Sheik is definately top tier, and her ftilt is broken.. It needs to be nerfed. However, Sheik does have bad matchups, MK, Kirby, and IMO peach.

It's kind of annoying to play a game that actually punishes a player for trying to follow up and combo, a game that lets a player unskillfully recover with a ridiculous auto-sweetspot ledge window, with a completely ridiculous ledge invincibility timer to boot. This game is Brawl. Brawl+ has much more potential to be a competitive game that will separate the distance b/w Scrub and Pro, plus its just it's faster and more fun. For all of those who will probably say "go play melee" to this, I admit that B+ is trying to make Brawl with the majority of Melee physics, but the game is actually very different.

PS: Dont be a douche and ask greedily for buffs that we don't even need (Tristan) Dair is fine the way it is. FSmash is situational, and will remain so in B+. If you nerf our Ftilt, which needs to be nerfed.. give us a Fair boost, not Nair. Whoever said the chain was flawed is pretty uninformed. With increased sheild stun, it makes a very excellent device for crippling shields and with hitstun, you get more hits off with the chain before they can punish you.

Forgive the rant but seriously I find this game more fun than brawl and I want it to be as good as it can be.

And Shanus... MK really is that broken. Have you ever played a Snake? 1st hit of Ftilt combos into another 1st hit of Ftilt to about 80%. SNake does 40% more with brokenness then he Utilts. GG. Brawl+ still has a long way to go. I support the banning of MK, and possibly Snake in B+.

I doubt you've played more than me

First, sheik. Ftilt lock has been fixed with hitbox knockback modifiers, it still combos very well, just won't lock anymore except maybe on fox. Also, her fair has gotten stronger at higher percents, which I'm sure your all happy with. Tristan, what we did with her fair was left the base knockback alone. A lot of the double fair combo's are still preserved. What we did was increased the knockback growth modifer on her fair so that it just scales much stronger at higher percents.

BTW, MK has been nerfed significantly. Players such as forte, Bum, and others all seem to think we've almost got him to the right balance setting.

Snake ftilt, you can tech it and SDI out on reaction alone, its not hard. Snake is good, but very beatable. And MK is approaching near balanced now as well.

Have you even used or looked at the Beta 4.0 changelist yet?

 

[Flamingo]

I doubt you've played more than me

First, sheik. Ftilt lock has been fixed with hitbox knockback modifiers, it still combos very well, just won't lock anymore except maybe on fox. Also, her fair has gotten stronger at higher percents, which I'm sure your all happy with. Tristan, what we did with her fair was left the base knockback alone. A lot of the double fair combo's are still preserved. What we did was increased the knockback growth modifer on her fair so that it just scales much stronger at higher percents.

BTW, MK has been nerfed significantly. Players such as forte, Bum, and others all seem to think we've almost got him to the right balance setting.

Snake ftilt, you can tech it and SDI out on reaction alone, its not hard. Snake is good, but very beatable. And MK is approaching near balanced now as well.

Have you even used or looked at the Beta 4.0 changelist yet?

That's actually a very good idea. So you made the knockback like... exponential I guess? (to a certain degree) That was the best word I could think of. But is that basically the principle?

I jus think MK should be banned in B+, I'll have to check out his nerfs 4.0 though. And the current set that I'm using has MK's nerfs taken out to allow for more code for other things. (So we basically don't play MK in our current version) But I have seen his increased Dsmash cooldown, no vertical rise on tornado, increased knockback FROM enemy's attacks, etc.

Cool. At our last B+ tourney, which was not 4.0 btw, (we don't use the betas for the tourneys, only the approved codesets), a Snake dominated by using that alone, he got 2nd place, and our player ranked 1st in Brawl in state beat him with Marth. So no, he is definately not unbeatable, and I hope that he is even less as powerful in 4.0.

*Downloading it now* haha. How is it comparatively, have you found any crashes or glitches, in my current vers. I have random crashes on "no contest" resets about 10% of the time, and the same random crash for ends of matches about 5% of the time. I should have specified my version in my posts above, sorry.

 

[shanus]

Well this is 4.0 official now, took a while to develop. There is only the crash that happens at the end of matches when a player mashes direction as the game ends. We still havent been able to get rid of that wiley bug yet.

Trust me, the MK nerfs are mammoth.

The main thing in 4.0 is lots of char balance tweaks. We can modify the frame speed, damage, base knockback, knockback growth (how it scales with percent, i.e. what we did to sheiks fair), damage type, and launch angle. Read the 2nd post in the Brawl Plusery Thread for the total changelist.

 

[Aznpkilla]

I looked in the changelist but I couldn't really find something that answers my question. (Perhaps I didn't look hard enough?) but has it been made so that Sheik can't do her downsmash (by pushing the c-stick down) while you are crouching? Because I've been trying to dash cancel the down smash or I'll attempt to after a down tilt and another downtilt simply comes out.

I'm just curious is all, I don't want it changed or anything if it's actually true.

Also, is Sheik supposed to automatically slide off when she charges needles at the very edge of Yoshi's island (Brawl)?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The strength of Fair's knockback seems relatively out of place now.
Fsmash is still a sad panda for missing the 2nd hit a lot and being weaker than Fair anyway.
Uair, Bair, and Nair no longer auto cancel out of a short hop, making me a sad panda.

Also, C-stick down while crouching always generates a dtilt. In this case, it's actually an unchanged mechanic.

 

[shanus]

The strength of Fair's knockback seems relatively out of place now.
Fsmash is still a sad panda for missing the 2nd hit a lot and being weaker than Fair anyway.
Uair, Bair, and Nair no longer auto cancel out of a short hop, making me a sad panda.

Also, C-stick down while crouching always generates a dtilt. In this case, it's actually an unchanged mechanic.

What changes would you prefer to see in place instead of sheiks fair. A lot of people wanted that move to kill earlier, but others mentions bair or uair as other alternatives.

Remember, we can alter Frame Speeds, Damage, Base Knockback, Knockback Growth, DamageElement Type, and Launch Angle.

 

[SGX]

I think her Bair should remain as is. It has good reach, and it's a good edge guarding and gimping tool.

I definitely think her Fair could use a Base knockback boost and a Knockback gain reduction. I don't think it should be melee good or even her best kill move by any means. What it would be really great for is a combo finisher, a spacing tool, and a way to get the opponent off the stage.

If 20/120 was too much, maybe 15/118 or something similar would be better?

Sheik has a pretty good off stage game due to her priority and good recovery. I think a Fair BKB boost would promote this.

I agree that her fsmash could use a buff, as well though.

 

[storm92]

I agree with a Fair boost in power, but as SGX said above me, in no way should it be equal to Melee's level (although it was the semi-spike trajectory that was what made it too good).
Sheik is **** good in B+ though, I have absolutely no complaints.

 

[Flamingo]

What changes would you prefer to see in place instead of sheiks fair. A lot of people wanted that move to kill earlier, but others mentions bair or uair as other alternatives.

Remember, we can alter Frame Speeds, Damage, Base Knockback, Knockback Growth, DamageElement Type, and Launch Angle.

I played Sheik in the new one and feel that everything is in place actually. (I would like Fair to have a slightly more downward angle like it was in Melee... but that's just me) I think that the Ftilt is appropriately nerfed and I love the Fair buff. Actually, the entire cast feels quite nicely balanced to me, (even though mario, luigi, and squirtly have heavily chaining utilts lol.)

My friend and I are actually making our own version of a tier list via a google tool spreadsheet application, because we play B+ everyday. If anyone wants to take a gander at our findings, or even help influence our decisions, feel free to AIM me or something. Make sure you have the latest version of B+ though. In our opinion, MK is no longer top :D)

By the way Shanus, is "blade" a type of damage element type? (I know it's not a real element like fire or electricity...) but I would like a nice slicing sound when it hits lol. That would be amazing if we could get that.

Aside from those two things I long for, KEEP SHEIK THE WAY SHE IS!, A-Tier FTW! (or at least high B)

 

[SGX]

Do you guys have any upcoming B+ tourneys, events, get-togethers coming up? I noticed that you're in Raleigh which is only ~3 hours from me. I wouldn't at all mind driving up there to get in some good B+ matches.

 

[Flamingo]

B+: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229214

A fun brawl/melee tourney this weekend: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228026

I squandered so hard at this tourney. Jeez :\

PS both are in raleigh.

 

[Flamingo]

BTW I think I found a glitch for Sheik in B+... kinda useful.

Or a new tech. Dont wanna sound n00b tho cryin out FLAMEDASH. rofl.