The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Barge]

I think you're ever so slightly underestimating Ike, actually. It's Olimar's advantage, that's fairly obvious, but a 4-6 match-up isn't "destroyed". I don't think Zelda gets destroyed by any stretch, either. Can't speak for Bowser, however.

DanGr often over exaggerates when it comes to olimar , but none-the-less its still an advantage for olimar. However I hate fighting ikes because I tend to run into their foward smash.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think you're ever so slightly underestimating Ike, actually. It's Olimar's advantage, that's fairly obvious, but a 4-6 match-up isn't "destroyed". I don't think Zelda gets destroyed by any stretch, either. Can't speak for Bowser, however.

Zelda is an even matchup... it could maybe 55:45 olimar but even that I think is generous.... *facepalm* why does everyone think zeldas just fsmash and din's spam?

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

Combine that with the fact that ROB can still do other attacks and use items during his Final Smash?

Yeah. Doesn't need to kill at low percents to be ridiculously strong, Snoopy.

And why are you persisting? If you're going to argue a point like this, please do so in the right thread.

Smooth Criminal

It's just that an opinion isn't worth posting if you won't defend it under scrutiny. Anyways, it's not a problem. This is my last post regarding this current debate.

 

[Barge]

Zelda is an even matchup... it could maybe 55:45 olimar but even that I think is generous.... *facepalm* why does everyone think zeldas just fsmash and din's spam?

friend finder.

 

[YagamiLight]

Zelda is an even matchup... it could maybe 55:45 olimar but even that I think is generous.... *facepalm* why does everyone think zeldas just fsmash and din's spam?

Probably thought by the same people who think Ike is Fsmash and Jab spam?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Probably thought by the same people who think Ike is Fsmash and Jab spam?

Don't forget:

AETHER! *says that dumbly.*

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

friend finder.

what is this "friend finder" ? am I just that severely out of the loop?

anyway.... I suppose I can't blame people... it's not like any good zeldas get out there and represent.... I mean... we've got DM... but he still just plays that same way as the cookie-cutter... he just happens to be good enough to be winning using this strategy.

but, yes... believe it or not... Zelda DOES have multiple attacks that do not consist of the b button or the c-stick O.O and she DOES play offensively... and she CAN fight in the air and she CAN get back to the stage without dying and she CAN connect with din's fire once in a while.... I could go on but you get the point

 

[Swordplay]

Stop complaining about Link. If you space well you can win. Want proof???
Yes if his second jump was better it would be awesome but hey, deal with what ya got.

I think you'll recognize these names.......

DSF(Snake) vs Deva(Link) MM 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaik3Efwdxw

DSF(MK) vs Deva(Link) MM2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMen9KvflM

Take that teir list.

 

[DanGR]

I think this is a little kind to him... and... I don't know about bowser and ike... but he certainly does not **** zelda.... I mean if she goes shiek... he loses... and even if she doesn't... it's hardly anything but an even fight... I haven't heard any zelda mains say they have trouble with olmars... I know I never have.

What don't you agree with from the other matchups? I acknowledge that sheik is hard.

I think you're ever so slightly underestimating Ike, actually. It's Olimar's advantage, that's fairly obvious, but a 4-6 match-up isn't "destroyed". I don't think Zelda gets destroyed by any stretch, either. Can't speak for Bowser, however.

I'm not underestimating Ike. He's not a crap character. I know that. I also know that he does awful against Olimar particularly.

I'm saying what the normal concensus is on the matchup for Ike is, which is around 70:30 Olimar. Personally, I think it might be 80:20 or 85:15. Ike has absolutely nothing on Olimar approach wise, speed wise, shield pressure wise, racking wise, or anything. He can't kill Olimar because he can't even get near him without being grabbed. Ike has no approaches that should every work on Olimar. none. zippo. He's very easy to combo and kill as well.

Would you mind sharing what approaching you'd use?

DanGr often over exaggerates when it comes to olimar , but none-the-less its still an advantage for olimar. However I hate fighting ikes because I tend to run into their foward smash.

Like what? I mean every word I type, everywhere.

You don't need to approach him at all. Just stand still and spam grabs and pikmin throw.

Zelda is an even matchup... it could maybe 55:45 olimar but even that I think is generous.... *facepalm* why does everyone think zeldas just fsmash and din's spam?

I think it's very onesided. I've explained my reasoning numerous times. Here's a highlight:
-Zelda has an abnormally hard time approaching
-she has trouble racking
-she has trouble hitting Olimar in the first place
-she's too slow to keep up
-she's easy to rack against and kill

At least I got ankoku to agree. >_>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think it's very onesided. I've explained my reasoning numerous times. Here's a highlight:
-Zelda has an abnormally hard time approaching
-she has trouble racking
-she has trouble hitting Olimar in the first place
-she's too slow to keep up
-she's easy to rack against and kill

At least I got ankoku to agree. >_>

- her approach game is subpar true... but it's not "abnormally" bad... she CAN approach olmar believe it or not.... it's not like he has any easier a time approaching her
- Zelda has trouble wracking damage? this is news to me... considering all her moves are so meaty.
- Um... explain how this is true... with her massive, lingering hitboxes she actually has an easie time connecting with attacks than most.
- how is she too slow? what exactly is she keeping up with? it's not like olimar is speedy gonzales... she can keep up with him just fine... I mean most stages DO have an edge... olimar can't just keep running.
-and... so is olimar? I mean he's very lightweight... dies just as easily as zelda... easier even with his sucktacular recovery that one Dsmash will FORCE him to need to use to recover.

Nayru's love and dsmash quite effectively shake loose, if not kill pikmin BTW

and big whoop... ankoku agrees.... I've seen the zelda matchups in ankoku's thread ON THE SHIEK BOARDS... and I'm not too terribly impressed... neither are any of the zelda users I've ever talked to... the shiek matchups there are pretty dead on... but the zelda ones have all gone to hell... and apparently you are someone we can thank for that?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Not as I Shuttle Loop, Tenki m'boy.

No johns.

Smooth Criminal

Side B invincibility goes through shuttle loop.

WHAT NOW!!!

 

[Barge]

It means you love Olimar that much dan c:

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Side B invincibility goes through shuttle loop.

WHAT NOW!!!

DAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMM.

Smooth Criminal

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm not underestimating Ike. He's not a crap character. I know that. I also know that he does awful against Olimar particularly.

I'm saying what the normal concensus is on the matchup for Ike is, which is around 70:30 Olimar. Personally, I think it might be 80:20 or 85:15. Ike has absolutely nothing on Olimar approach wise, speed wise, shield pressure wise, racking wise, or anything. He can't kill Olimar because he can't even get near him without being grabbed. Ike has no approaches that should every work on Olimar. none. zippo. He's very easy to combo and kill as well.

Would you mind sharing what approaching you'd use?

While I don't see the real benefit in debating what the percentage is (Ike's at a disadvantage, in any case), I think the main thing missing here is that Ike's dash attack seem to be made for the Pikmin throw. It has such a good range that it'll hit the Olimar and disrupt his game. Ike cannot be aggressive in the match-up by any means, but by using more "defense" oriented moves (Such as say, the Up Tilt while Olimar is coming from above, and say, Grab to Jabs [Well timed, of course]). Ike has to be rather smart here, since doing a mis-step will get you comboed and killed rather soon. It also pays to know the colors of the Pikmin, as that's an indicator of Olimar's next move, more or less.

 

[DanGR]

- her approach game is subpar true... but it's not "abnormally" bad... she CAN approach olmar believe it or not.... it's not like he has any easier a time approaching her

yup. Olimar doesn't have to approach though. Zelda does.

- Zelda has trouble wracking damage? this is news to me... considering all her moves are so meaty.
- Um... explain how this is true... with her massive, lingering hitboxes she actually has an easie time connecting with attacks than most.
- how is she too slow? what exactly is she keeping up with? it's not like olimar is speedy gonzales... she can keep up with him just fine... I mean most stages DO have an edge... olimar can't just keep running.
-and... so is olimar? I mean he's very lightweight... dies just as easily as zelda... easier even with his sucktacular recovery that one Dsmash will FORCE him to need to use to recover.

Olimar is a fast and quick character with a pivot grab longer than lucario's fsmash. Every character that isn't versatile enough in the air to get past this huge obstacle will have a lot of trouble against Olimar.

Zelda is no different. She's slow in the air (floaty, w/e), she doesn't have any rising OR falling aerials that can't be shieldgrabbed very easily, she doesn't have enough aerial speed or manuveuability to keep Olimar guessing, and she doesn't have a brick wall that can hurt Olimar. She just doesn't do well in the air versus a grounded Olimar.

Her ground game lacks vital speed for the matchup. Her run isn't fast enough to keep up with a speedy, grab happy Olimar, her attacks can't interrupt his grabs very well (such as a very fast ftilt like Rob's or a jab like peach's- both disadvantages for Olimar btw), and she doesn't have a very fast grab of her own either. She's just not...fast enough. Like... that's it.

When you look at both their air games against each other's air games, they're pretty even matched. Would you agree?

Olimar doesn't need to be in the air at all though... Zelda does if she wants to get past Olimar's grab and fsmash spam. For the most part, it's zelda's air game versus Olimar's air defense. imo, Olimar has a huge advantage in this one area. This accounts for most of the matchup.

Nayru's love and dsmash quite effectively shake loose, if not kill pikmin BTW

Nayru's is grabbed easily, and dsmash is one of your good killers against Olimar right?

but the zelda ones have all gone to hell... and apparently you are someone we can thank for that?

Actually, I only talked about Olimar's matchups from what I remember.

Edit:

While I don't see the real benefit in debating what the percentage is (Ike's at a disadvantage, in any case), I think the main thing missing here is that Ike's dash attack seem to be made for the Pikmin throw. It has such a good range that it'll hit the Olimar and disrupt his game. Ike cannot be aggressive in the match-up by any means, but by using more "defense" oriented moves (Such as say, the Up Tilt while Olimar is coming from above, and say, Grab to Jabs [Well timed, of course]). Ike has to be rather smart here, since doing a mis-step will get you comboed and killed rather soon. It also pays to know the colors of the Pikmin, as that's an indicator of Olimar's next move, more or less.

Yeah, I don't really see a point either. It's not going to change this tier list. Same thing goes for you STH.

I don't understand the whole dash attack thing being helpful for Ike. Olimar can just grab it, but w/e.

 

[Barge]

While I don't see the real benefit in debating what the percentage is (Ike's at a disadvantage, in any case), I think the main thing missing here is that Ike's dash attack seem to be made for the Pikmin throw. It has such a good range that it'll hit the Olimar and disrupt his game. Ike cannot be aggressive in the match-up by any means, but by using more "defense" oriented moves (Such as say, the Up Tilt while Olimar is coming from above, and say, Grab to Jabs [Well timed, of course]). Ike has to be rather smart here, since doing a mis-step will get you comboed and killed rather soon. It also pays to know the colors of the Pikmin, as that's an indicator of Olimar's next move, more or less.

Oh gee, looks like I'm gonna have to practice c:

I don't understand the whole dash attack thing being helpful for Ike. Olimar can just grab it, but w/e.

Its a real pain when your trying to pick your pikmin D:


Off-topic: Grets on page 100

 

[OlimarFan]

Its a real pain when your trying to pick your pikmin D:

Uh, it only takes 2 seconds max.

 

[choknater]

lol wow deva vs dsf good **** amazing

 

[Corigames]

ITT:

People don't like the tier list or their characters placement and cry about it to fruitlessly hope they get A) a new list from the SBR B) an apology from the SBR C) people to whine with them D) waste my time reading.

 

[-Mars-]

I would argue that Deva's performance alone should pull Link above Ganon, Jiggly, Yoshi, Samus.......I still can't believe why he's second to last. DSF is supposedly one of the top 5 players out there and he lost to a Link with Snake and MK. Granted it is Deva but still, you don't see any Jigglypuffs or Ganondorfs beating top Snake and metaknight players.

 

[Corigames]

I can't beat Taj's Mewtwo in Melee, does that mean that he should be placed higher? No. Just because of one person's ability to play a character does not out-weigh the absolute crud that character actually is. If Link was making tournament results or showed through some other means that he was actually good, then he might have a case. But just a handful of people doing well with him doesn't go against lots of people doing well with a character.

 

[choknater]

it might've been different if taj actually used mewtwo to win singles tournaments

but he went marth/fox

;_;

edit: however, i do agree with marsulas that deva shows some potential in link that a char like ganon doesnt really have

 

[Frate]

I've done some thinking.

A person that does not play in tournaments and complains at the tier list, is like, in essence, an American complaining about the laws in Russia. Tier lists do not simply apply at 90% of the played Smash games. For the other 10 percents, they might do, and then they are flexible.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Compared to Super Sonic you consider a highly avoidable one-shot attack "good"? Heck Link's Final Smash is better. At least Link's activates instantly. Marth pauses to do a he-man pose before dashing, giving you a heads-up that the attack is coming,

Btw, Tiers STILL exist when final smashes are considered. No fighting game is 100% balanced down to every move, something I just admitted to a few posts ago. My point isn't: "Final Smashes make the game 100% balanced."

It's: "Sakurai factored in final smashes when creating the character balance."

My quick example was sonic and MK. I'm not gonna go through and explain every Final Smash just to prove such an obvious point.


My logic succeeds.

Ummm, Marth's final smash is a punish/combo move.

He does a nice pose, which is fine for you if you have enough time to spotdodge/airdodge... but a good Marth is going to use it like dancing blades... dancing blades that auto-kills. Or combo off a dtilt (IASA frames ROCK, and in this case, combo can also mean punishing a shield or spotdodge), or something like that. Some situation where, there's no way you get invincability frames.

Probably thought by the same people who think Ike is Fsmash and Jab spam?

But but jab is awesome! Must... jab... more!

But seriously, gotta love the people who think like that.

 

[DanGR]

Uh, it only takes 2 seconds max.

0.2 seconds a pikmin actually.

 

[Swordplay]

DSF(Snake) vs Deva(Link) MM 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iaik3Efwdxw
DSF(MK) vs Deva(Link) MM2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMen9KvflM

You have to understand those vids of DSF loosing to Deva.....they reflect matchups not tier list placements.

Just because A bad character Like Link can go head to head with Snake..... it means its practically an even matchup at high levels of play.

If tier lists were soley a result of overall matchups, those vids would definatly help link. However, teir lists also take into consideration tourney results which justifies much of this teir list...

I can't beat Taj's Mewtwo in Melee, does that mean that he should be placed higher? No. Just because of one person's ability to play a character does not out-weigh the absolute crud that character actually is. If Link was making tournament results or showed through some other means that he was actually good, then he might have a case. But just a handful of people doing well with him doesn't go against lots of people doing well with a character.

Seriously though that arguement only works because the player playing the "Low teir" character is much better than the person playing the "High teir" Character.

This is Deva and DSF...Not some noob vs some good person.

SIGH I SAID A LOT okay i caught my breath.

I'm fine with the teir list....

I strongly believe Link will be one of those players whose metagame will be one of the last to fully develop due to the low amount of players that play him and having what can be considered the most amount of AT's given to a character in this game. I'll just list a few...

Zair with Bomb
DAC (Every character has this)
ZAC (Every character can do this but only helps those who can use b moves like items such as peach or T Link)
Bombsmashing
Arrow canceling
Reverse arrow canceling
Bombesliding.
Craq walk (Everybody has this but Link actually has one of the best in the game)

Now if you can combine some of those AT's you can even come up with more AT's such as....

DAC with a bomb in hand (after you drop it from the air)
RAR into a reverse arrow cancel

AND SO MUCH MORE.

Yes some of those are useless but others are very important and worth using. A good player must determine what is good and worth using and what is worthless.

Unless your a great player Like Deva.....Your going to find it near hell impossible to integrate most of those into Links game properly without a lot of practice. And trust me.....they are practicing.

Thats' why I feel characters with vast amount of AT's like TL and Link and Peach and Snake and so forth will go up because their metagame will be one of the last to finish as it progresses slower than the other such as marth (a very good character but doesn't have many AT's and his meta game is close to finished if not finished already)

Snake might also go down though considering we had that Snake craze and know just about every aspect of snake.

that is not true with low tier characters as they are played much less.

This teir list means NOTHING as a new and more accurate tier list will come out at a later time.
Keep in mind this is the SRB first attempt at it so don't have a heart attack.




Seriously though Link>Ganondorf......keep in mind I am biased when I say that as i just don't want Hyrule to burn.......

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What bothers me most about the list are 6 chars in top tier. 6 chars in the highest tier, despite the game being completely inbalanced? At least MK deserves his own tier...

 

[rambull]

how much does recovery REALLY have to do with the list. most characters in high and top tiers arereaally good at recovering.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

What bothers me most about the list are 6 chars in top tier. 6 chars in the highest tier, despite the game being completely inbalanced? At least MK deserves his own tier...

You were expecting a perfectly balanced game?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

That is probably just the result that the better your recovery the longer you last, and the better you do, etc. i highly doubt they actually rated their recoveries and went from that. but really, especially in brawl, your recovery matters a lot.

 

[Steeler]

di can make up for really bad recoveries.

 

[Barge]

Mk can use any of his b moves to recover, snake isnt that easy to gimp, falcos may suck, but he has an awesome jump, and he has 2 recovery options, marth has 2 recovery options, ddd can float + that big jump thingy. G&w = good jump plus good up b. Top tier doesnt have that much crap recovery,

 

[undyinglight]

di can make up for really bad recoveries.

Good DI can help but it can't make up for bad recoveries, trust me Gannondorf is one of my secondaries.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Um, hasn't anyone heard a little thing called the "Novelty Effect"?

Link isn't played by ANYONE.

DSF was probably confused a bit and nervous as the matches went on due to maybe he couldn't read DEVA well enough like if he was playing another Snake, MK, or other character that everyone and their mothers play.

Or

After playing nothing but Snakes and MKs for the past 6 months its only logical to think some players who play "low tiered" characters will start to develop strats around those 2(Snake and MK).

Which is kinda what happened in Melee with Marth while Fox and Falco were dominant.

Also, recovery means jack **** in Brawl.

All characters have AMAZING RECOVERIES.

No character is gonna die because of their crap recovery, save for maybe 2 or 3 crap characters.

 

[Barge]

Um, hasn't anyone heard a little thing called the "Novelty Effect"?

Link isn't played by ANYONE.

DSF was probably confused a bit and nervous as the matches went on due to maybe he couldn't read DEVA well enough like if he was playing another Snake, MK, or other character that everyone and their mothers play.

Or

After playing nothing but Snakes and MKs for the past 6 months its only logical to think some players who play "low tiered" characters will start to develop strats around those 2(Snake and MK).

Which is kinda what happened in Melee with Marth while Fox and Falco were dominant.

Also, recovery means jack **** in Brawl.

All characters have AMAZING RECOVERIES.

No character is gonna die because of their crap recovery, save for maybe 2 or 3 crap characters.

Lets say all the characters were hit to the lowest point in FD before they die, like half of the characters would be able to make it back, half of them wouldnt be able to, thats saying something about recovery, it makes or breaks the game

 

[hizzlum]

Why was a four tier system used when in melee it was typical to have 5 tiers, and in brawl there seems to be way more divsion that in melee. Mk should have the top tier alone, if not snake would be a controversial 2nd character in the top tier. Then the DDD,G&W,Falco, ROB, Marth wario group, which consistently place well in tourneys better than lucario, DK, Diddy, and others, yet not as well as snake and mK, who's division as the best characters come by tons of tourney wins and the best match-ups. Personally, I find it difficult to under stand why Mk and then Snake where not given the top tier

Also, why were marth and wario given the boot to high tier when they are equal with G&W, ROB and falco yet not above them(in my opion marth and wario should have been at the bottom of the top in this list)
My opinion, but after seeing ken's marth at evo, it truly shows how well marth can space(items lost him the tounrey thugh) in a game heavly based on spacing mindgames, and timing, by the lack of AT's. And futile, the best wario in the us(Opinion), 2nd in socal rankings,best area of smash play(opinion), going second at axxis and winning tons of tourneys by creating tons of pressure as wario, is put into high when DSF and Samurai panda say there is great potencial in wario that they say could put him into the 3rd spot on a tier list in the near future.
My opinion, constructive critism helps. I just see this tier list as people pulled out of the SBR oven to early.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Also, recovery means jack **** in Brawl.

All characters have AMAZING RECOVERIES.

No character is gonna die because of their crap recovery, save for maybe 2 or 3 crap characters.

Ummmm, this is very wrong. Indeed, many characters have good recoveries. If you hit a character to the top side of the screen on FD, most can get back. Link and some others are exceptions, though.

Also, some are much safer than others. Go try to kill a MK and the go edgehog an Olimar and then tell me recovery doesn't matter.

 

[Swordplay]

Um, hasn't anyone heard a little thing called the "Novelty Effect"?

Link isn't played by ANYONE.

DSF was probably confused a bit and nervous as the matches went on due to maybe he couldn't read DEVA well enough like if he was playing another Snake, MK, or other character that everyone and their mothers play.

Or

After playing nothing but Snakes and MKs for the past 6 months its only logical to think some players who play "low tiered" characters will start to develop strats around those 2(Snake and MK).

Which is kinda what happened in Melee with Marth while Fox and Falco were dominant.

Also, recovery means jack **** in Brawl.

All characters have AMAZING RECOVERIES.

No character is gonna die because of their crap recovery, save for maybe 2 or 3 crap characters.

You obviously know nothing about Link.....

Its not that DSF couldn't read Deva's moves.....It is that Link can almost go even with snake at very high levels of play. That is just the matchup.

Also recovery is a big deal. If you get knocked off the stage far enough with link... Even with proper DI......there are times where you don't even have to gimp Link...His recovery alone sucks so bad to the point where he can't make it back on the stage.

If the other character can watch you die without even attempting a gimp.....IT IS A BIG DEAL

 

[Barge]

Inactive for 3 hours. longest I've seen so far.
So.......how bout them chaingrabs

 

[phosphorus]

I'd also like to mention to whoever things recoveries don't matter that having a bad recovery makes that character easier to edgehog/gimp because, if they are sent out far enough, must follow one path to return to the stage, making them more predictable.