The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[studly]

Why is Lucas so low on the tier list....i do by no means think that he deserves top tier but i think that in the very least he deserves high middle tier...Come on ....potential wise and using all of his AT's ...how is he that low?

im no lucas main but we do have one in our crew and he easily keeps up with rob falco and marth...(this is no a general statement just an observation)

 

[adumbrodeus]

edit: adumbrodeus - just because wario can get gayed easily doesn't mean he is not an amazing character. his great aerial movement is a huge asset that overpowers many characters in the metagame. he is an unpredictable character, i don't think the release grabs will tear him down too much (until later when people start actually using them against good warios like futile...)

*Bolding added

That's exactly what I'm pointing out, it's part of the metagame because it's been discovered, but people aren't using it yet. Again, this isn't just tournament results, it's based on character potential and match-ups as well.

The release grabs screw him over in both departments, and the only odd thing is that they haven't screwed him over in results yet, but they will.

 

[Judge Judy]

Too bad for Mario...I really thought he'd be higher.. It looks like Mario has gone the way of Melee Ness, lots of cool tricks but just doesn't cut it in tourneys...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Link has one of the best projectile games IN the game... and is quite powerful/heavy..... it's just his awful recovery limiting him so much... and it IS awful... trust me it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLN9ROlrBdk

here's my link... it's far from exceptional..... but I think you can see..... he only dies from his AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL recovery... otherwise his stage control is quite dominant.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

We know link is hindered heavily by his Recovery already. That doesn't change anything, I mean if Link had a kick *** recovery, I'd be maining him...since I want to main him but his recovery is too poor.

Link is like the only person who's recovery destroys him, atleast Olimar has distance, gimpable as he is.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

We know link is hindered heavily by his Recovery already. That doesn't change anything, I mean if Link had a kick *** recovery, I'd be maining him...since I want to main him but his recovery is too poor.

Link is like the only person who's recovery destroys him, atleast Olimar has distance, gimpable as he is.

agreed... I love link.... but he NEVER fails to dissapoint me with his recover of suck

 

[kr3wman]

I like people saying Link's bad recovery is the main factor for him being so low.

Well, it's not like our blue-feathered SHDL spammer has one that's really better, huh?

 

[studly]

I like people saying Link's bad recovery is the main factor for him being so low.

Well, it's not like our blue-feathered SHDL spammer has one that's really better, huh?

that is awesome lol

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLN9ROlrBdk

here's my link... it's far from exceptional..... but I think you can see..... he only dies from his AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL recovery... otherwise his stage control is quite dominant.

Meh, you were ok. Was it laggy?

I could have seem more Zair and boomerang against the side of the stage to repel enemies a little more. Try setting up an A-A-down smash combo on the ground, fair at low percentages, bair for good airial control from 40%-73%, and up-smash sliding after weapon spamming.

Is Link's best projectile the bomb, gale boomerang, or arrow? I typically use the bombs less, I just don't get the feel for using bombs regularly.

I've never felt comfortable playing Link in any Smash game, but sometimes you pick up some useful stuff and good practice when playing "With Anyone" (people are so bad, I have gained confidence in Link). Hmmm, maybe I should practice with Link right now.....

 

[Digimonkey]

Are they scrambled within each section of the list?

 

[Barge]

I like people saying Link's bad recovery is the main factor for him being so low.

Well, it's not like our blue-feathered SHDL spammer has one that's really better, huh?

Not only recovery, but ground speed and falling speed, link falls too fast for his weight.

 

[Fletch]

Are they scrambled within each section of the list?

Negative .

 

[Skyflyer]

A Tier List Atm isn't much more than a popularity poll. Many characters are simply easier to master than others and require much less in-depth practice. MK for example has blantatly obvious strengths that are discovered in a relatively short amount of time. People skim over characters and it's a first impression type thing. MK gives the best first impression to players. It's why he's so popular. It's why he gets top-tier. Not because he is broken.

However, other characters are like hidden gems, who need serious studying to be competetive. Don't get me wrong though, I do believe in bad match-ups and some characters may genuinely be better overall, but balance gaps between characters are generally over-rated imo. By now, I'm suprised many haven't caught on to how the characters were balanced to begin with.

I hate to say it but Sakurai partially based the character balance on Final Smashes and items. For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight. However, running speed allows him to get to items quickly and he has the best FS in the game.

Meta-Knight on the other hand gets one of the weakest Final Smashes in the game. Hmmmn, I wonder why?

Yet, marth is high tier but his final smash is good.

Your logic fails.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I'm happy with it

 

[DMG]

I was a bit surprised G&W was lower than Dedede, and that ROB was higher than Marth, but otherwise it looks great.

Wario's in the right spot IMO, even with release grabs against him. He might drop a spot or two, but I doubt he will drop significantly.

 

[I. H. O. P. Ness]

I don't get how CP can die so easily in tourneis with his FA.
Then again he's hard to control because of his speed and lack of recovery.
This can result in suicide.
Robot's recovery and areials made him in the top tiers

 

[Tenki]

For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight.

wtf?

get that Sonic main icon off of you.

Side and down-B handle differently, and Sonic is probably the best example of middleweight in the game >_>;

Just because he's small (and he's not even that short o_O) doesn't make him lightweight.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374

 

[Barge]

wtf?

get that Sonic main icon off of you.

Side and down-B handle differently, and Sonic is probably the best example of middleweight in the game >_>;

Just because he's small (and he's not even that short o_O) doesn't make him lightweight.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374

Lol @ your avatar

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

Yet, marth is high tier but his final smash is good.

Your logic fails.

Compared to Super Sonic you consider a highly avoidable one-shot attack "good"? Heck Link's Final Smash is better. At least Link's activates instantly. Marth pauses to do a he-man pose before dashing, giving you a heads-up that the attack is coming,

Btw, Tiers STILL exist when final smashes are considered. No fighting game is 100% balanced down to every move, something I just admitted to a few posts ago. My point isn't: "Final Smashes make the game 100% balanced."

It's: "Sakurai factored in final smashes when creating the character balance."

My quick example was sonic and MK. I'm not gonna go through and explain every Final Smash just to prove such an obvious point.


My logic succeeds.

 

[Barge]

Compared to Super Sonic you consider a highly avoidable one-shot attack "good"? Heck Link's Final Smash is better. At least Link's activates instantly. Marth pauses to do a he-man pose before dashing, giving you a heads-up that the attack is coming,

Btw, Tiers STILL exist when final smashes are considered. No fighting game is 100% balanced down to every move, something I just admitted to a few posts ago. My point isn't: "Final Smashes make the game 100% balanced."

It's: "Sakurai factored in final smashes when creating the character balance."

My quick example was sonic and MK. I'm not gonna go through and explain every Final Smash just to prove such an obvious point.


My logic succeeds.

Okay, but this tier list ISNT including Fsmashes, which means, even if sakurai included fsmashes when comparing characters, this tier list is evaluating on how a character does without items and fsmashes. Nuff said.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

You'll get no sympathy from Zinc.

Smooth Criminal

I'm sure Ike would have my back on this one.

I like people saying Link's bad recovery is the main factor for him being so low.

Well, it's not like our blue-feathered SHDL spammer has one that's really better, huh?

I 'd have to disagree about Falco. It's nowhere near as bad as Link.

Compared to Super Sonic you consider a highly avoidable one-shot attack "good"? Heck Link's Final Smash is better. At least Link's activates instantly. Marth pauses to do a he-man pose before dashing, giving you a heads-up that the attack is coming,

Btw, Tiers STILL exist when final smashes are considered. No fighting game is 100% balanced down to every move, something I just admitted to a few posts ago. My point isn't: "Final Smashes make the game 100% balanced."

It's: "Sakurai factored in final smashes when creating the character balance."

My quick example was sonic and MK. I'm not gonna go through and explain every Final Smash just to prove such an obvious point.


My logic succeeds.

Considering how many peopel disagreed with you and pointed out counterexamples, I don't think calling this an obvious point is a good idea.

Also, you can't make a general statement about the entire character set without analyzing each one...

Your metalogic and logic both fail.

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

wtf?

get that Sonic main icon off of you.

Side and down-B handle differently, and Sonic is probably the best example of middleweight in the game >_>;

Just because he's small (and he's not even that short o_O) doesn't make him lightweight.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374

Lol.

I know about all of his b-moves inside and out. Of couse side-b is different, but not by much. I main Sonic only in Items-off brawls (Sometimes DK.) For items-on its Mario and link ( Well-thrown bombs aimed at Smashball = pwnt.) But no, Sonic is pretty lightweight though. Not kirby/jiggly light, but Anyone with at least mid strength smash attacks can kill you pretty quickly.

Oh and @barge, I know.

 

[kr3wman]

Is it me, or someone is trying to evade logic here?

 

[luckywind]

i main ness and a spike can kill pritty fast

 

[DanGR]

• Zelda is severely underplayed... rarely will you run into one.... and, if she ain't played by masterful hands, she can have trouble with snake and MK... though pros should really have the masterful hands to cover this... but even pros have trouble with marth and game and watch.
• We Zelda/Shiek mains are an even RARER occurance... so good luck finding us too... same problem with zelda about being even RARER with professional level skill.
• Pika.. well this DOES pop up I guess... and makes it hard for him.
• Olimar... gets ***** by too many top/high teir charcters to worry about him much.
• diddy is another real threat.

ahem? like who?

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

I know the thread is about items-off tiers, but my point is still relative to the characters themselves, being in why they were designed a certain way. If let's say, Sonic was designed with his FS in mind and was weakened abit to balance out having such a powerful FS. That design choice still affects the outcome of an Items-off tier list. Are you getting this now?

I main Sonic only in items-off because....

1.) I enjoy it
2.) Being very skilled with sonic says alot about the player.

I didn't wanna linger on Final Smashes since this is a Items-off tier list but my posts were under attack by multiple users.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I know the thread is about items-off tiers, but my point is still relative to the characters themselves, being in why they were designed a certain way. If let's say, Sonic was designed with his FS in mind and was weakened abit to balance out having such a powerful FS. That design choice still affects the outcome of an Items-off tier list. Are you getting this now?

I main Sonic only in items-off because....

1.) I enjoy it
2.) Being very skilled with sonic says alot about the player.

I didn't wanna linger on Final Smashes since this is a Items-off tier list but my posts were under attack by multiple users.

Good. This arguement is off-topic anyway.

ahem? like who?

Uh, unless 60-40 counts as **** (it doesn't), I don't think anyone.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ahem? like who?

anyone with a decent edgeguarding game who doesn't get stonewalled by him I'd imagine.... so that would be MK, ROB and Wolf right? oh wait... and kirby is high teir isn't he.... and I think the icies say they have an advatage too.... and I KNOW he gets countered by shiek and gets' DESTROYED by peach in his own teir....

 

[LuigiKing]

Anime, I don't know why you're really being attacked here, you presented a very, very basic argument and people could not seem to comprehend it :D I laughed quite a bit, but thats life.

Anyway, I really think there are a lot of characters that have plenty of potential that just get the shaft because not enough people main them. Point being, characters like Luigi, Ness, Lucas, and Zelda/Sheik end up being lower on this list than they would on a theoretical list based entirely off moveset potential. I still realize tourny results have to go into a tier list, because it removes a lot of personal bias, but man, sometimes I just wish more people mained poor ol' Luigi

 

[exidid]

The characters that are a problem for Olimar offstage are: MK, Yoshi, Mk and another one I can't remember :/ And those aren't "****".

 

[kr3wman]

His argument was that Final Smash and items ultimately balanced the game and as an example mentions MK has a sucky FS and Sonic has a good one.

People respond with ROB having a very good one, Falco having one that ***** everything, Marth having one that 1-hit KOs, Wario having one that ****ing ***** the **** out of everything, Captain Falcon having that sucks as much as MK's and others.

And then Anime, because he mentioned (only) 2 good examples he says he's right. This isn't basic or anything. It's complete horse manure.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Anime, I don't know why you're really being attacked here, you presented a very, very basic argument and people could not seem to comprehend it :D I laughed quite a bit, but thats life.

A very basic argument that really has no bearing on the topic at hand. Hence why it was refuted the way it was. This is a tier list for items-off play; if he wants to make his own tier listing for ISP/SRK/EVO Brawl, he can go ahead and make a thread pertaining to that subject matter.

As for his argument pertaining to "balance..."

He's not Masahiro Sakurai; how do we know whether the game was balanced with items and Final Smashes in mind? The answer is simple: We don't. The game was meant to play however the player wants to play it. Sakurai just gave us a template to work with.


Smooth Criminal

 

[DanGR]

anyone with a decent edgeguarding game who doesn't get stonewalled by him I'd imagine.... so that would be MK, ROB and Wolf right? oh wait... and kirby is high teir isn't he.... and I think the icies say they have an advatage too.... and I KNOW he gets countered by shiek and gets' DESTROYED by peach in his own teir....

And Olimar completely destroys bowser, ike, and zelda,(excluding sheik) which happen to be in his own tier as well.

imo...

Top- 1 big adv., 1 adv., 1 even, 3 dis.
Meta Knight- 40:60
Snake- 60:40
King Dedede- around 65:35 or 70:30 (counter)
Mr. Game & Watch- around 45:55 or 40:60
Falco- 50:50
R.O.B.- 40:60

High- 2 adv., 6 even, 2 dis.
Marth-around even
Wario-50:50
Lucario- 60:40
Donkey Kong-55:45
Diddy-50:50
Pikachu-55:45
Ice Climbers- around 45:55 or 50:50
Kirby- 40:60
Pit- 60:40
Wolf- 45:55ish

That's a max of 5 disadvantages (the 45:55 matchups given benefit of the doubt) in top tier and high tier combined. That's 4 solid advantages,(not counting 55:45) one being a counter, and 7 even-ish matchups. (50:50 or 55:45) You call that ****? lol

 

[Tenki]

I know about all of his b-moves inside and out. Of couse side-b is different, but not by much.

?_?

side-B can shield cancel as it charges
aerial down-B can shield cancel as it lands

aerial down-B can do multiple hits and has a longer-lasting hitbox based on velocity
aerial side-B stops momentum but has a limited hitbox and low damage and invincibility frames

those are pretty significant, IMO `.`;

 

[Smooth Criminal]

?_?

side-B can shield cancel as it charges
aerial down-B can shield cancel as it lands

aerial down-B can do multiple hits and has a longer-lasting hitbox based on velocity
aerial side-B stops momentum but has a limited hitbox and low damage and invincibility frames

those are pretty significant, IMO `.`;

Not as I Shuttle Loop, Tenki m'boy.

No johns.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And Olimar completely destroys bowser, ike, and zelda,(excluding sheik) which happen to be in his own tier as well.

imo...

Top- 1 big adv., 1 adv., 1 even, 3 dis.
Meta Knight- 40:60
Snake- 60:40
King Dedede- around 65:35 or 70:30 (counter)
Mr. Game & Watch- around 45:55 or 40:60
Falco- 50:50
R.O.B.- 40:60

High- 2 adv., 6 even, 2 dis.
Marth-around even
Wario-50:50
Lucario- 60:40
Donkey Kong-55:45
Diddy-50:50
Pikachu-55:45
Ice Climbers- around 45:55 or 50:50
Kirby- 40:60
Pit- 60:40
Wolf- 45:55ish

That's a max of 5 disadvantages (the 45:55 matchups given benefit of the doubt) in top tier and high tier combined. That's 4 solid advantages,(not counting 55:45) one being a counter, and 7 even-ish matchups. (50:50 or 55:45) You call that ****? lol

I think this is a little kind to him... and... I don't know about bowser and ike... but he certainly does not **** zelda.... I mean if she goes shiek... he loses... and even if she doesn't... it's hardly anything but an even fight... I haven't heard any zelda mains say they have trouble with olmars... I know I never have.

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

His argument was that Final Smash and items ultimately balanced the game and as an example mentions MK has a sucky FS and Sonic has a good one.

People respond with ROB having a very good one, Falco having one that ***** everything, Marth having one that 1-hit KOs, Wario having one that ****ing ***** the **** out of everything, Captain Falcon having that sucks as much as MK's and others.

And then Anime, because he mentioned (only) 2 good examples he says he's right. This isn't basic or anything. It's complete horse manure.

*Sigh*

Yet you completely ignore my counter-arguments explaining how R.O.B's FS isn't that good because it doesn't kill at low % damage, only does blows with killing force randomly and is easy to escape (Ken took 2 in a row but didn't die.) Marth's FS has a delayed activation, is only one-shot and is easy to dodge. (link's FS can 1-hit KO at the edge of the stage with 0% damage and has quicker activation. Same with Cpt. Falcon. MK's can't 1-hit KO even at the edge.)

Wario's can be hard to KO the opponent with due to shaky controls and Wario-man's jerky move-ments. Falco's is good (which I admitted), but if you have a winged character or a floating character you can fly underneath the stage and go from ledge to ledge to avoid it. It sucks at certain stages like jungle japes.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

*Sigh*

Yet you completely ignore my counter-arguments explaining how R.O.B's FS isn't that good because it doesn't kill at low % damage, only does blows with killing force randomly and is easy to escape (Ken took 2 in a row but didn't die).

Combine that with the fact that ROB can still do other attacks and use items during his Final Smash?

Yeah. Doesn't need to kill at low percents to be ridiculously strong, Snoopy.

And why are you persisting? If you're going to argue a point like this, please do so in the right thread.

Smooth Criminal

 

[YagamiLight]

And Olimar completely destroys bowser, ike, and zelda,(excluding sheik) which happen to be in his own tier as well.

I think you're ever so slightly underestimating Ike, actually. It's Olimar's advantage, that's fairly obvious, but a 4-6 match-up isn't "destroyed". I don't think Zelda gets destroyed by any stretch, either. Can't speak for Bowser, however.

 

[kr3wman]

*Sigh*

Yet you completely ignore my counter-arguments explaining how R.O.B's FS isn't that good because it doesn't kill at low % damage, only does blows with killing force randomly and is easy to escape (Ken took 2 in a row but didn't die.) Marth's FS has a delayed activation, is only one-shot and is easy to dodge. (link's FS can 1-hit KO at the edge of the stage with 0% damage and has quicker activation. Same with Cpt. Falcon. MK's can't 1-hit KO even at the edge.)

Wario's can be hard to KO the opponent with due to shaky controls and Wario-man's jerky move-ments. Falco's is good (which I admitted), but if you have a winged character or a floating character you can fly underneath the stage and go from ledge to ledge to avoid it. It sucks at certain stages like jungle japes.

I don't care about your counter-arguments. I'm caring about the fact that you said FS tried to balance to game, which obviously do not. You're the one ignoring the actual point of the argument.