The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[Corigames]

What do you mean by, "nothing"?

 

[Dark.Pch]

What do you mean by, "nothing"?

As in its all bias and wasnt done well enough. Every character was not looked through fully.

 

[Corigames]

He said, "tier lists are nothing." He wasn't saying specifically this one. I want to know why he thinks tier lists in general mean nothing.

And I don't think this one was bad on top of that. It has Snake and MK at top. that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If what you mean is that this game is mostly about snake and meta, then yea I agree with that, its about all you see now.

And this list still irks me for how they have bowser over Peach.

You know I should have done this a long time ago. I like to request who gave the discussion on Peach in the back room to put her in the spot that she is in?

 

[DarkRenji]

Wow, I love Europe. A lot more variety in characters here. (although there are many Meta Knights too, but not as many as in the US)

 

[Puddin]

He said, "tier lists are nothing." He wasn't saying specifically this one. I want to know why he thinks tier lists in general mean nothing.

And I don't think this one was bad on top of that. It has Snake and MK at top. that pretty much sums it up.

Because a characters position in a Tier List does not change a characters match ups, it's still the same character just with a rank and idea of how well the character is doing. Which is why Tier Lists mean "nothing"

 

[Skyson]

All my mains seem to be high up on the list except for some odd ones.

Weegee and Old Man G-Dorf shall be risen to glory!

This list looks very subjunctive to change, so there's no need for the massive uproar that some people are causing. People find characters that are exceptionally good and cling to them for tournament use. They don't expand their base and try playing other characters because results with those other characters aren't as "guaranteed" as the high tiers they've been using. So, basing a tier list off of tournament results this early isn't the greatest idea, since top players clearly don't try playing other characters.

"Oh look [x player] won this tournament, that tournament, this other tournament, my friend's backyard tournament, this other tournament, and won the world championship tournament."
"Who'd he use?"
"Snake."
"OMG SNAKE IS TOP TIER."

Maybe my take on this list is a little dumb, since I don't go to tournaments, but that's really just my assumption. When the same people win a lot of tournaments with the same character, they have no reason to use anyone else, because using the character that's winning is natural when the objective of a tournament is to win.

Oh well.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As he said, most of DDD's worst matchups are characters that aren't played much, and his best matchups are against popular characters. About my point on his stages, I wasn't talking about Zelda specifically, just his bad matchups in general. I don't know Zelda well enough to know what stages DDD should use on her, because as you said she isn't used often. I'll look into it though.

And for the record DDD's worst matchup of the characters that are frequently played, are other DDD's. DeDeDe doubles are lame.

Yes, but WHY?

This feeds into his point, MK clears them out so well that people dropped them so they're rarely encountered.

Even Zelda which is possibly an even versus MK, because it takes both players to be high-leveled, otherwise it's pure ****.

Better question, why do you always have to bring her up like some lame fanboy. We get it, you like zelda now move on to something else please.

Uhhh, because it's the TRUTH, the fact that he plays Zelda just means that he knows her advantages.

That fact doesn't change the fact that he's right, and having additional information is important because it does change the metagame.

All my mains seem to be high up on the list except for some odd ones.

Weegee and Old Man G-Dorf shall be risen to glory!

This list looks very subjunctive to change, so there's no need for the massive uproar that some people are causing. People find characters that are exceptionally good and cling to them for tournament use. They don't expand their base and try playing other characters because results with those other characters aren't as "guaranteed" as the high tiers they've been using. So, basing a tier list off of tournament results this early isn't the greatest idea, since top players clearly don't try playing other characters.

"Oh look [x player] won this tournament, that tournament, this other tournament, my friend's backyard tournament, this other tournament, and won the world championship tournament."
"Who'd he use?"
"Snake."
"OMG SNAKE IS TOP TIER."

Maybe my take on this list is a little dumb, since I don't go to tournaments, but that's really just my assumption. When the same people win a lot of tournaments with the same character, they have no reason to use anyone else, because using the character that's winning is natural when the objective of a tournament is to win.

Oh well.

The thing is, a lot of players are able to do that, with the same character at a lot of different tournaments.

Add that in to overall match-ups, and that's why a tier list is valid. It pretty much details your chances of winning a tournament given a specific character in the current metagame.

And no, Ganondorf is not going to be top tier anytime soon. Barring an amazing AT for him. Same for luigi.

 

[Takumaru]

Ok, i'm gonna back off. I've been an *** for no reason.

Now Zelda has some good match ups in the higher tiers but outside of DDD she really has to work hard for them. But small characters give her trouble especially if they get her in the air. The reason she's where she is is because she has to work harder to win than some of the characters that are higher than her. In general she only has average match ups. I'm too frazzled to get any specifics out right now but I'll. by the way, I'm a zelda main.

Again, sorry for taking out my bad moods on you guys here. I can be really stupid in that respect.

 

[LuigiKing]

Yes, but WHY?
And no, Ganondorf is not going to be top tier anytime soon. Barring an amazing AT for him. Same for luigi.

Don't go breakin' my heart Luigi will eventually go up, I'm fairly sure of it. I'm going out on a limb here and saying Lucas wil too, and hopefuly Sheik. They have a lot of untapped potential and are somewhat shafted by lack of players, so heres to them ^_^

 

[choknater]

you are michael phelps?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, i'm gonna back off. I've been an *** for no reason.

Now Zelda has some good match ups in the higher tiers but outside of DDD she really has to work hard for them. But small characters give her trouble especially if they get her in the air. The reason she's where she is is because she has to work harder to win than some of the characters that are higher than her. In general she only has average match ups. I'm too frazzled to get any specifics out right now but I'll. by the way, I'm a zelda main.

Again, sorry for taking out my bad moods on you guys here. I can be really stupid in that respect.

I appreciate that.

Zelda vs. the high teirs is actually surprisingly favourable for Zelda...

she has the advantage or runs even with most of them... like I said... only game and watch and marth are bad matchups for her.

the thing is... Zelda is REALLY REALLY punishable if you get too sloppy... so only a true pro could bring out her true potential... and she just isn't popular enough for you to see true pros pick her up... at least, not many

so... really it's wonky to try and rate her since it's impractical to place her in the teir she "deserves" because she'll never be played well enough to reach it in the forseeable future.... and... I don't think we'll see Zelda/Shiek getting even the little attention that Zelda does... which is a shame becausde they deserve it.... Zelda/Shiek has amazing matchups.

 

[JackyQuaky]

Oh yeah. Wario AND Pikachu are High tier! I'm happy, except for Captain Falcon. Poor Fella....

 

[IShotLazer]

This tier list is pretty good. Though, I think it would ALMOST be safe to actually put Metaknight on another level XD.
It's funny actually seeing the first tier list being constructed. I'm sure that the lower tiers might see some different placement within the next year (not by a large amount however), however the Top tiers Metagame is so much greater they wont be sliding into entirely different positions just moving around in their own column pretty much.

I'm glad that there is a slight desciption above the actual tier list as to prevent the usual pestering about and misconceptions about tiers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Something, I've been wondering for a while is Warios placement on the SBR tier list. Shouldn't he be > Marth?

 

[Takumaru]

I appreciate that.

Zelda vs. the high teirs is actually surprisingly favourable for Zelda...

she has the advantage or runs even with most of them... like I said... only game and watch and marth are bad matchups for her.

the thing is... Zelda is REALLY REALLY punishable if you get too sloppy... so only a true pro could bring out her true potential... and she just isn't popular enough for you to see true pros pick her up... at least, not many

so... really it's wonky to try and rate her since it's impractical to place her in the teir she "deserves" because she'll never be played well enough to reach it in the forseeable future.... and... I don't think we'll see Zelda/Shiek getting even the little attention that Zelda does... which is a shame becausde they deserve it.... Zelda/Shiek has amazing matchups.

the bold part is why I say she has to work harder. Zelda has to be played very precisely, more so than a lot of the cast (like samus in melee). Ideally she has good matchups but the ideal zelda has yet to be played. Just curious, what are some matchups that Zelda/sheik can do better than just zelda?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the bold part is why I say she has to work harder. Zelda has to be played very precisely, more so than a lot of the cast (like samus in melee). Ideally she has good matchups but the ideal zelda has yet to be played. Just curious, what are some matchups that Zelda/sheik can do better than just zelda?

hard to say because, while ankoku has a matchup thread up for Zelda/Shiek.... it's really from a shiek's perspective and contains untruths about zelda <_< like... for example... MK and ness are not NEAR so bad for her.... hell.... ness is EVEN.... but it's a good start,


basically... Zelda/Shiek excells when zelda OR shiek alone would fail or when BOTH would excell....

Zelda/Shiek allows you to wrack up damage and then switch to zelda for a PLETHORA of fresh kill moves

I use Zelda/Shiek all the time... but it's most effective comparitively (in my own experience)for:
Captain Falcon
Toon Link
Bowser
Link
Pokemon Trainer
Wolf
Pit
Fox (or shiek alone)
ROB (Or Zelda alone)
Peach
Snake
Game and Watch



and... yeah... Im KNOW Zelda has to work hard.... but my point was, with pros, aren't they all at a level where that's really not a big disadvantage? if it were MK vs DK would NOT be DKs advantage since he has to work REALLY REALLY hard in it

 

[luvs2pluck]

I was very shocked by Olimar's placement I must say. But after thinking about it and looking at the people above him Ive comes to terms with it. I still don't like it, but I accept it. ......w0rm 4 lyfe

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I was very shocked by Olimar's placement I must say. But after thinking about it and looking at the people above him Ive comes to terms with it. I still don't like it, but I accept it. ......w0rm 4 lyfe

There's nothing to come to terms with. You're just as good or bad with Olimar as you were before, and this list coming out doesn't mean he has any more or less potential. Just don't sweat the list at all.

 

[fenyx4]

Though I haven't played Brawl yet , I'm really bummed that Link is low on the tier-list again (I'm not using Toon Link). And I'm worried about CF's fate in SSB4. I don't want a repeat like what happened with Mewtwo (and Mewtwo's popularity Pokemon-wise could almost be that of Mario's. He could also basically be Pokemon's mascot because he used to be the most powerful Pokemon in RBY. Plus, he's more known than the lesser-known though still cool Lucario. Plus, Mewtwo's popularity in his own franchise didn't save him, so what happens with the lesser-known F-Zero?). However, I slightly doubt CF being removed from SSB4 because you just cannot have Smash without Falcon Punch

 

[Bowser King]

Though I haven't played Brawl yet , I'm really bummed that Link is low on the tier-list again (I'm not using Toon Link). And I'm worried about CF's fate in SSB4. I don't want a repeat like what happened with Mewtwo (and Mewtwo's popularity Pokemon-wise could almost be that of Mario's. He could also basically be Pokemon's mascot because he used to be the most powerful Pokemon in RBY. Plus, he's more known than the lesser-known though still cool Lucario. Plus, Mewtwo's popularity in his own franchise didn't save him, so what happens with the lesser-known F-Zero?). However, I slightly doubt CF being removed from SSB4 because you just cannot have Smash without Falcon Punch

Falcon will defiantly not get booted. He's the only f-zero character in the game (unless he gets replaced which is near impossible).

 

[Psyche131]

Woot, glad wario is so high, i never thought he would be anywhere near high tier. Seems like the best representation thus far, hopefully the meta game will develop more and well see some changes. Nice job, just wondering but could you possibly give a reason for placement on some characters? Smashwiki is missing pros and cons for lots of characters, just a little justification (tourney data, matchups) but again great job, you guys got the list out in less than a year.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

Falcon will defiantly not get booted. He's the only f-zero character in the game (unless he gets replaced which is near impossible).

CF will not be booted. It is impossible. I will lead an army of protesters if he is dropped.

Something I noticed. CF has slowed every smash game.

Played smash 64 for the first time in years. He seem's to have slowed down over the course of the series. His Falcon Paunch comes out as fast in 64 as his Fsmash does in Brawl ! -_-

 

[IkarusChild]

jigglypuff could kick your@$$


XD

 

[Barge]

CF will not be booted. It is impossible. I will lead an army of protesters if he is dropped.

Something I noticed. CF has slowed every smash game.

Played smash 64 for the first time in years. He seem's to have slowed down over the course of the series. His Falcon Paunch comes out as fast in 64 as his Fsmash does in Brawl ! -_-

His knee has been nerfed too.

 

[piffman2]

I didn't know Lucario was so good.

I'm just glad Ganon is not the worst

 

[vinni57]

It is finally here! The SSBB Teir list!!!

 

[Barge]

Lucario is amazing if you play him right, I hate fighting good lucarios, hes a very defensive character

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Lucario is amazing if you play him right, I hate fighting good lucarios, hes a very defensive character

You can play Lucario just about ANY way. Not all of them are defensive.

 

[Barge]

You can play Lucario just about ANY way. Not all of them are defensive.

Lucario seems to be more of a defensive character, good dodgerolls, aura sphere, fast grabs, long range smashes, etc

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Lucario seems to be more of a defensive character, good dodgerolls, aura sphere, fast grabs, long range smashes, etc

On the other hand, he is possibly the best character for stringing attacks together and can edgeguard pretty well. Aura sphere can also be used offensively too. Lucario just has options all over the place.

 

[smashbot226]

On the other hand, he is possibly the best character for stringing attacks together and can edgeguard pretty well. Aura sphere can also be used offensively too. Lucario just has options all over the place.

Not to mention he's probably got the BEST Dair in the game.

 

[TWILTHERO]

I'm just glad Ganon is not the worst

But why is he better than Link? Link beats him in everything else. Why not on the Tier list? I'm am a sad Link mainer

 

[AnimeSnoopy]

A Tier List Atm isn't much more than a popularity poll. Many characters are simply easier to master than others and require much less in-depth practice. MK for example has blantatly obvious strengths that are discovered in a relatively short amount of time. People skim over characters and it's a first impression type thing. MK gives the best first impression to players. It's why he's so popular. It's why he gets top-tier. Not because he is broken.

However, other characters are like hidden gems, who need serious studying to be competetive. Don't get me wrong though, I do believe in bad match-ups and some characters may genuinely be better overall, but balance gaps between characters are generally over-rated imo. By now, I'm suprised many haven't caught on to how the characters were balanced to begin with.

I hate to say it but Sakurai partially based the character balance on Final Smashes and items. For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight. However, running speed allows him to get to items quickly and he has the best FS in the game.

Meta-Knight on the other hand gets one of the weakest Final Smashes in the game. Hmmmn, I wonder why?

 

[BudaBoy]

Concerning the falcon being booted topic: It's safe to say that all of the original 12 aren't going anywhere. I would also lay money that any character in melee that made it to brawl are safe from getting the boot. Just like in melee, it will probably be a handful of brawl newcomers that don't stick around for ssb4.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

A Tier List Atm isn't much more than a popularity poll. Many characters are simply easier to master than others and require much less in-depth practice. MK for example has blantatly obvious strengths that are discovered in a relatively short amount of time. People skim over characters and it's a first impression type thing. MK gives the best first impression to players. It's why he's so popular. It's why he gets top-tier. Not because he is broken.

However, other characters are like hidden gems, who need serious studying to be competetive. Don't get me wrong though, I do believe in bad match-ups and some characters may genuinely be better overall, but balance gaps between characters are generally over-rated imo. By now I'm suprised many haven't caught on to how the characters were balanced to begin with.

I hate to say it but Sakurai partially based the character balance on Final Smashes and items. For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight. However, running speed allows him to get to items quickly and he has the best FS in the game.

Meta-Knight on the other hand gets one of the weakest Final Smashes in the game. Hmmmn, I wonder why?

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

This tier list isn't based around items-on Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

 

[metaXzero]

A Tier List Atm isn't much more than a popularity poll. Many characters are simply easier to master than others and require much less in-depth practice. MK for example has blantatly obvious strengths that are discovered in a relatively short amount of time. People skim over characters and it's a first impression type thing. MK gives the best first impression to players. It's why he's so popular. It's why he gets top-tier. Not because he is broken.

However, other characters are like hidden gems, who need serious studying to be competetive. Don't get me wrong though, I do believe in bad match-ups and some characters may genuinely be better overall, but balance gaps between characters are generally over-rated imo. By now I'm suprised many haven't caught on to how the characters were balanced to begin with.

I hate to say it but Sakurai partially based the character balance on Final Smashes and items. For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight. However, running speed allows him to get to items quickly and he has the best FS in the game.

Meta-Knight on the other hand gets one of the weakest Final Smashes in the game. Hmmmn, I wonder why?

Snake got a decent FS. ROB got a good 1. Marth is a 1 hit KO Smash, Falco has the best Landmaster.

Falcon FS is crap, Mario's is meh.

FS's weren't designed around balance.

 

[M.K]

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd?

This tier list isn't based around items-on Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

I think what he is trying to say is that when Sakurai designed Brawl, he included "Final Smash Effectiveness" into the "pros and cons" of a character, which eventually unravels some balances when items (particularly Smash Balls) are turned off.
He gives the example of Galaxia Darkness being a weak-ish Final Smash for Meta-Knight, the best character in the game. Same with Sonic (one of the worst) and Super Sonic (posibly the best Final Smash)

 

[kr3wman]

I think what he is trying to say is that when Sakurai designed Brawl, he included "Final Smash Effectiveness" into the "pros and cons" of a character, which eventually unravels some balances when items (particularly Smash Balls) are turned off.
He gives the example of Galaxia Darkness being a weak-ish Final Smash for Meta-Knight, the best character in the game. Same with Sonic (one of the worst) and Super Sonic (posibly the best Final Smash)

That's just wishful thinking.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I hate to say it but Sakurai partially based the character balance on Final Smashes and items. For example, Sonic has mediocre b-specials that don't show variety. Low priority. Lack-luster aerials. Low atk power and he is relatively light-weight. However, running speed allows him to get to items quickly and he has the best FS in the game.

Meta-Knight on the other hand gets one of the weakest Final Smashes in the game. Hmmmn, I wonder why?

Snake, Falco, ROB, Peach, Captain Falcon, Marth, Wolf, and about everyone you didn't mention all say hi.

It's just not a balanced game, like almost every single other fighter...