The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[adumbrodeus]

Well this definition has a lot of loop holes. I could merely say I play to win, and that makes me a professional? And If I said I don't play to win, does that make me a scrub? I think skill has to take place here.

Actually, yes.

"Following a line of conduct as though one were a professional" is a standard definition of professional.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional

That said, the term professional itself does have a rather tight definition in competitive gaming, so being a scrub means that you are not a professional, HOWEVER not being a scrub does not mean you are a professional.

Being a scrub means that you do not conduct yourself like a professional in terms of your attitude. Skill is not a factor.

a think a Scrub is just someone whos cheap and spams a button. Such as the tl arrows. or the
Mk tornado. it gets annoying if people just tape down the B button, thats What I call a scrub.
and thats what i think a scrub should stay as, Someone Who Plays Smash/brawl for the fun shouldnt Be Called a scrub

Lol

A scrub is somebody who doesn't play to win which means using any tournament legal means to win, if winning means spamming tornado or arrows, or whatever, do it. If you don't, and that would help you win, you are a scrub.

 

[Justblaze647]

Ummmmmmmmmmm................




I think skill is a factor...

 

[Steel]

scrub = suck at smash

 

[Daedatheus]

scrub = suck at smash

scrub = complainer/excuse-maker

There are decent skill scrubs

 

[Justblaze647]

So not being a professional means that you have no skilll?


That doesn't make any sense...?

 

[kr3wman]

So not being a professional means that you have no skilll?


That doesn't make any sense...?

It's not a skill-based definition. It's the concept behind why they play.

Scrubs : Play to have fun and can't take losses that they deem are ''cheap''
Pros : Play to have fun and to win, while accepting what happens to them if they lose -or even win- and thrive to get better.

 

[Justblaze647]

It's not a skill-based definition. It's the concept behind why they play.

Scrubs : Play to have fun and can't take losses that they deem are ''cheap''
Pros : Play to have fun and to win, while accepting what happens to them if they lose -or even win- and thrive to get better.

OH ****... I think I'm a pro...

 

[Alphicans]

Every definition you're giving isn't saying skill is factor, when it clearly is. Plus now, with that definition of scrub, we need a term for the people who aren't pros or scrubs.

 

[kr3wman]

Every definition you're giving isn't saying skill is factor, when it clearly is. Plus now, with that definition of scrub, we need a term for the people who aren't pros or scrubs.

Now that's Scrub thinking vs Pro thinking.

Not Being a noob vs Being a Pro. It's totally different.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Every definition you're giving isn't saying skill is factor, when it clearly is. Plus now, with that definition of scrub, we need a term for the people who aren't pros or scrubs.

Why clearly? I see nothing that makes this point clear.


How about "everyone else", it served for people who were neither new enough to be noobs, but not good enough to be experts, it generally serves in cases where there are two things that are mutually exclusive, but it is possible to be neither. A lack of a descriptor easily serves.

Ummmmmmmmmmm................




I think skill is a factor...

There are terms with precise meanings within given circles. The fact that other circles tie similar or even the same term with a different meaning is irrelevant.

Does the fact that the word "die" means "the" in German mean anything to conversations in English? I don't think so.

 

[darkserenade]

Interesting...Lots of low and middle tier characters were some people thought would be high..

 

[aeghrur]

So Scrub is basically a person who only plays to have fun and johns a lot?

 

[choknater]

Wait wait wait. Did you just say Captain Falcon has strengths against the top tier?
He really has very little potential or signiifcant advantages against skilled players in his favor at all...
I feel there should be a bottom tier, even if only for him. That way, it can be the manly tier.

Other than that, you make some good points.

perhaps. i can see a bottom tier being only falcon and ganon.

kinda redundant though. that's like making a metaknight tier. it makes sense, but it's just too arbitrary.

 

[kr3wman]

So Scrub is basically a person who only plays to have fun and johns a lot?

You're messing up Johning and QQ'ing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You're messing up Johning and QQ'ing.

It's kinda both.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

OMG... the tier list version 1.0 went totally offtopic.... again...... now about scrub's definition, please lets discuss about the topic
i think olimar is too low, his insane grab game,priority, little size and good game overall besides recovering may make him higher, an i think a lot of people will agree with me

 

[Umby]

Before we get off the topic of scrubs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofbhkbk42Jc

 

[Alphicans]

I hate to spam the tier list thread with this debate, but honestly the smashers definition of pro and "scrub" is whacked. I think the starcraft community has got it pretty much down. What you call a scrub is merely deemed as being bad manner or "BM," and what you are considering professional is good manner or "GM." Professional is just someone who plays at a professional level, regardless of being BM or GM. To me that makes absolute sense, this talk about professionals being people who play to win, is a bit silly really. You said why is it clear that skill is a factor, well it's because if you're professional, you are good at the game. So now you can argue that a scrub can play at a professional level, which is true, so then that particular scrub is a professional, but is just BM.

Example- I am playing at par with M2K, but whenever he wins I complain about his "cheap" edge guarding and marth's long sword, and chaingrabs. At the same time I am winning an equal amount of games. Does this mean I am not playing at a professional level? You could say I am not acting professional, but video gaming isn't really considered a profession anyways. Therefore I am just being BM.

 

[Galaxy]

Scurbs suck. If you suck you are a scrub.

I am a scrub. Get it?

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Ummmmmmmmmmm................




I think skill is a factor...

Skill is a factor in being considered a pro.
It is not a factor in being considered professional, nor in being considered a scrub.

perhaps. i can see a bottom tier being only falcon and ganon.

kinda redundant though. that's like making a metaknight tier. it makes sense, but it's just too arbitrary.

I wouldn't put Ganon in a tier with Captain Falcon. Ganon (and Link too, who imho he's about even with) both have their advantages, but are held back by far more signifcant disadvantages.

Captain Falcon is nothing but disadvantages (okay, maybe his jab isn't too bad).

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hate to spam the tier list thread with this debate, but honestly the smashers definition of pro and "scrub" is whacked. I think the starcraft community has got it pretty much down. What you call a scrub is merely deemed as being bad manner or "BM," and what you are considering professional is good manner or "GM." Professional is just someone who plays at a professional level, regardless of being BM or GM. To me that makes absolute sense, this talk about professionals being people who play to win, is a bit silly really. You said why is it clear that skill is a factor, well it's because if you're professional, you are good at the game. So now you can argue that a scrub can play at a professional level, which is true, so then that particular scrub is a professional, but is just BM.

Example- I am playing at par with M2K, but whenever he wins I complain about his "cheap" edge guarding and marth's long sword, and chaingrabs. At the same time I am winning an equal amount of games. Does this mean I am not playing at a professional level? You could say I am not acting professional, but video gaming isn't really considered a profession anyways. Therefore I am just being BM.

It's just scrub that's different, and this is more then just smash, most of the more established fighting game communities follow this definition, though it extends to a lot of competative communities. It initially game from street fighter.

Pro is the same regardless.

 

[choknater]

Yeah, let's seriously talk about the tier list instead of scrub/pro. Just make another thread lol?

 

[memphischains]

idk if anyone asked already, but did anyone from MLG have anything to do with the list?

 

[Shark Week]

I hate to spam the tier list thread with this debate, but honestly the smashers definition of pro and "scrub" is whacked. I think the starcraft community has got it pretty much down. What you call a scrub is merely deemed as being bad manner or "BM," and what you are considering professional is good manner or "GM." Professional is just someone who plays at a professional level, regardless of being BM or GM. To me that makes absolute sense, this talk about professionals being people who play to win, is a bit silly really. You said why is it clear that skill is a factor, well it's because if you're professional, you are good at the game. So now you can argue that a scrub can play at a professional level, which is true, so then that particular scrub is a professional, but is just BM.

Example- I am playing at par with M2K, but whenever he wins I complain about his "cheap" edge guarding and marth's long sword, and chaingrabs. At the same time I am winning an equal amount of games. Does this mean I am not playing at a professional level? You could say I am not acting professional, but video gaming isn't really considered a profession anyways. Therefore I am just being BM.

don't worry about it, it's a worthless term that extends from the fighting game community's general elitism and narcissism.

 

[DRaGZ]

Lol, people trying to define fighting game vernacular.

 

[Kitamerby]

I hate to spam the tier list thread with this debate, but honestly the smashers definition of pro and "scrub" is whacked. I think the starcraft community has got it pretty much down. What you call a scrub is merely deemed as being bad manner or "BM," and what you are considering professional is good manner or "GM." Professional is just someone who plays at a professional level, regardless of being BM or GM. To me that makes absolute sense, this talk about professionals being people who play to win, is a bit silly really. You said why is it clear that skill is a factor, well it's because if you're professional, you are good at the game. So now you can argue that a scrub can play at a professional level, which is true, so then that particular scrub is a professional, but is just BM.

Example- I am playing at par with M2K, but whenever he wins I complain about his "cheap" edge guarding and marth's long sword, and chaingrabs. At the same time I am winning an equal amount of games. Does this mean I am not playing at a professional level? You could say I am not acting professional, but video gaming isn't really considered a profession anyways. Therefore I am just being BM.

You can't play at M2K's level and john. It's like trying to win an art contest without knowing how to draw a straight line.

 

[GofG]

Alphican, it isn't just "our" definition of Scrub. It's the entire fighting game universe's definition of scrub. See: sirlin.net/ptw

 

[choknater]

So guys, Snake doesn't deserve 2nd anymore amirite?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's...hard to tell. I'd say the #2 spot in Brawl is a similar scenario to the #1 spot in Melee. Who's the #1 in Melee? It's never truly clear. Some say it's Fox, some say it's Sheik, some say it's Marth and most say they are equally broken. Same in Brawl imo between D3, GaW and Snake

 

[Hayzeus]

And yet ATM in australia bloody directors are trying to BAN... yes ban... MK from all tournaments.
Honestly any character can beat any other character with the right mindgames.

 

[Tenki]

And yet ATM in australia bloody directors are trying to BAN... yes ban... MK from all tournaments.
Honestly any character player can beat any other character player with the right mindgames.

Mindgames are the power of a player, not a character. Which is why they don't factor into a character ranking list (tier list)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tenki, how often do you change your main?!? [/off topic]

On topic: there are better reasons to ban MK, than mindgames. lol Azens mindgames are too good...he should be banned...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Mindgames are the power of a player, not a character. Which is why they don't factor into a character ranking list (tier list)

When characters have more options with discrete counters, they have a mindgames advantage. Depending on how different the counters are, and how difficult it is to prepare for all the eventualities, a character can be inherently better at mindgames or worse.

Ultimately, it all depends on the player, but some characters simply have more to work with.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

When characters have more options with discrete counters, they have a mindgames advantage. Depending on how different the counters are, and how difficult it is to prepare for all the eventualities, a character can be inherently better at mindgames or worse.

Ultimately, it all depends on the player, but some characters simply have more to work with.

A skilled player will find more ways to mindgame his opponent

 

[Dark Sonic]

A skilled player will find more ways to mindgame his opponent

And a character with more options to mindgame with will lend himself to said player more easily (*coughmeleefalconcough*)

 

[adumbrodeus]

A skilled player will find more ways to mindgame his opponent

Oh I agree, but that doesn't mean some characters don't have better overall options for mindgaming right off the bat, and when two people of equal mindgaming skill are compared, the characters used will define whose mindgames are better.

It's like tiers, skill still wins overall, but given equal skill, who is more likely to win a tournament, Captain Falcon or Metaknight?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The thing is that everything can work as a mindgame, if used properly. It's just that a skilled player will see it, unlike a newbie...imo

 

[choknater]

it's "mindgames" not "a mindgame"

when will people get that "mindgames" is an all-encompassing concept, not the fake out tactics themselves, that is just playing smart

 

[adumbrodeus]

The thing is that everything can work as a mindgame, if used properly. It's just that a skilled player will see it, unlike a newbie...imo

Mindgames are one of the nuances that seperate a weak player from a strong one. That's why M2K>Silentwolf. Daigo Umehara (from Street Fighter competative) also says, "hi".

If you have a case where there are 2 possible moves from a certain setup your opponent, and you can only counter one, you have to use mindgames to predict what your opponent will do, and your opponent is counter with his own to predict what you will try to counter and use the opposite move.

What if there's a third? The situation is clearly in your opponent's favor.

Of course then there's always the possibility of doing an inherently useless move that sets your opponent up for a counter when he/she/it/potato reacts, but these tend to be less efficent then the "choice" situations, because they depend on your opponent reacting, whereas the choices depend on your opponent either not reaction or reacting incorrect, therefore they are in general safer.

That's the concept behind mindgames, if you know what your opponent is going to do and how he/she/it/potato is going to react, this can equate to an immense advantage, but it's a constant dance because your opponent is trying to do the same to you. Also some moves cannot be stopped by certain characters regardless of prediction if used properly. Still, mindgames wins games.

Personally, I prefer Sirlin's term, Yomi.


Edit: This concept is rather important to me because, mindgames are central to my playstyle. I've always been a rather poor technician who depended on out-scouting and outsmarting my opponents to win matches. Yeah, unusual for a Marth main no? Without mindgames, my win/lose ratio would be a heck of a lot worse.




edit:

it's "mindgames" not "a mindgame"

when will people get that "mindgames" is an all-encompassing concept, not the fake out tactics themselves, that is just playing smart

Eventually... hopefully.

 

[gantrain05]

olimar definatley has the best mindgames lol.