The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[nightelf56]

...

So if you don't disagree with the existence of Zelda/Sheik mains, what was the point of that post?

If there are Zelda/Sheik players and they function differently then the characters independently in terms of optimal playstyle, then they need a separate spot. Or one spot for both. That said, 3 separate positions works better, because it's more convenient for many players.

I know there are Zelda/Shiek mains out there, I just never saw one myself that's all.






I just came up with the idea of having Zelda/Shiek, Zelda and Shiek having different spots on the tier list. Wonder if that will work out.

 

[nightelf56]

So because you never saw one it disapproves the fact that Sheik/Zelda can be a separate character on the tier list?

Still sounds stupid to me.

No, I never said that either. Stop jumping to conclusions.

 

[kr3wman]

No, I never said that either. Stop jumping to conclusions.

Well considering there two COMPLETELY different characters, in terms of moveset and playstyle, plus anybody who mains any of them, never say they main Zelda/Shiek. They one of the other. There movesets are completely different which makes them different characters in a way. There moves are diffrent and stuff too. Diffrent AT's.

Most people don't main Zelda/Shiek. They main one or the other. I have never saw anyone do both. And like I said earlier, different moves.

I am not jumping to conclusions.

 

[nightelf56]

You guys already proved me wrong on the there are Zelda/Shiek mains and stuff. Why you bringing it up?

 

[kr3wman]

You guys already proved me wrong on the there are Zelda/Shiek mains and stuff. Why you bringing it up?

You guys already proved me wrong on the there are Zelda/Shiek mains and stuff. Why you bringing it up?

You're the one bringing it up.

 

[nightelf56]

Most people main Zelda/Shiek. They main Zelda/Sheik or if they want, they can main one or the another. I have never saw anyone do both. And like I said earlier, different moves.

There, I changed to the better version.

 

[SuperLinkBrothers]

I think Shiek/Zelda should stay as one character and not break apart. just my opinion.

 

[nightelf56]

I think Shiek/Zelda should stay as one character and not break apart. just my opinion.

Oh yeah! WELL **** YOUR OPINION!


Sorry, just messing around.

 

[kr3wman]

I think Shiek/Zelda should stay as one character and not break apart. just my opinion.

It's because you can choose to play both or either Zelda or Sheik. PT is kept as one character because of game mechanics revolving around that character.

 

[nightelf56]

It's because you can choose to play both or either Zelda or Sheik. PT is kept as one character because of game mechanics revolving around that character.

Yeah. When you die as Zelda/Shiek, you stay that character. PT, however you don't. That's why he's considered one character.

 

[nightelf56]

I think now that when it comes to tier lists, that Zelda/Shiek should be separate from them by themselves. Like all 3 of them are there.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I agree that Zelda/Sheik needs to be a character of her own. Playing both in some form or another significantly changes the character's strengths and weakenesses, and thus, deserves to be evaluated in some way as to how viable they are in a competitive setting. That's why they need a spot on the tier list for the two played together.

However, many choose not to play both, but to play one or the other. This is a much more practical limitation than "Olimar without pikmin" or "MK without dsmash" as each character is completely self-contained if the player wishes them to be. The player must take an additional risk (subject themselves to the dangers of transformation time) in order to take advantage of the other's moves. It isn't like Olimar's pikmin or MK's dsmash where thery are always available. As a result, I believe there needs to be individual Sheik and Zelda on the tier list as well.

I don't feel anyone else should be split up.

Thus, the tier list should have spots for
Zelda
Shiek
Zelda/Shiek
Samus
ZSS
PT

 

[Barge]

I agree that Zelda/Sheik needs to be a character of her own. Playing both in some form or another significantly changes the character's strengths and weakenesses, and thus, deserves to be evaluated in some way as to how viable they are in a competitive setting. That's why they need a spot on the tier list for the two played together.

However, many choose not to play both, but to play one or the other. This is a much more practical limitation than "Olimar without pikmin" or "MK without dsmash" as each character is completely self-contained if the player wishes them to be. The player must take an additional risk (subject themselves to the dangers of transformation time) in order to take advantage of the other's moves. It isn't like Olimar's pikmin or MK's dsmash where thery are always available. As a result, I believe there needs to be individual Sheik and Zelda on the tier list as well.

I don't feel anyone else should be split up.

Thus, the tier list should have spots for
Zelda
Shiek
Zelda/Shiek
Samus
ZSS
PT

I don't quite understand by what you mean

"Thus, the tier list should have spots for
Zelda
Shiek
Zelda/Shiek
Samus
ZSS
PT"

They already have spots

 

[YagamiLight]

However, many choose not to play both, but to play one or the other. This is a much more practical limitation than "Olimar without pikmin" or "MK without dsmash" as each character is completely self-contained if the player wishes them to be. The player must take an additional risk (subject themselves to the dangers of transformation time) in order to take advantage of the other's moves. It isn't like Olimar's pikmin or MK's dsmash where thery are always available. As a result, I believe there needs to be individual Sheik and Zelda on the tier list as well.

This very same thing can be said for Ike's Neutral Special : Eruption, when fully charged.

It's not always available, as it has a 5 second charge time (!). There is a significant difference between a fully charged and non fully charged one. There are risks associated with a Fully charged Eruption, such as taking 10% to yourself. And Ike is perfectly self contained without using Fully Charged Eruptions.

I call for Ike (FCE) and Ike (NFCE) to be separate characters.

It's ridiculous, is it not? Just place Zelda and Sheik at the same spot.

 

[Barge]

This very same thing can be said for Ike's Neutral Special : Eruption, when fully charged.

It's not always available, as it has a 5 second charge time (!). There is a significant difference between a fully charged and non fully charged one. There are risks associated with a Fully charged Eruption, such as taking 10% to yourself. And Ike is perfectly self contained without using Fully Charged Eruptions.

I call for Ike (FCE) and Ike (NFCE) to be separate characters.

It's ridiculous, is it not? Just place Zelda and Sheik at the same spot.

^This

Plus, Zelda/Sheik are listed as a different character in the Character Rankings list, why not on the tier list?

 

[Morrigan]

I don't quite understand by what you mean

"Thus, the tier list should have spots for
Zelda
Shiek
Zelda/Shiek
Samus
ZSS
PT"

They already have spots

He probably counted Samus and PT as multicharacters. ZSS and Samus have different spots, so I don't see what the problem is. Regarding PT, he can't be split up. It's explained on the first few pages.

 

[M.K]

Why is there any debate to whether or not they should be seperate characters.....THEY ARE SEPERATE CHARACTERS!
Obviously, they deserve seperate spots.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No. Using Zelda is a move of Sheik. Using Sheik is a move of Zelda. If you don't use Sheiks DownB...that's like using Wolf without bair...it can work but makes everything meaninglessly complicated. Obviously, a skilled player will never do so

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I don't quite understand by what you mean

"Thus, the tier list should have spots for
Zelda
Shiek
Zelda/Shiek
Samus
ZSS
PT"

They already have spots

I was making the point that Samus and Zamus should not be combined by the same logic as Zelda/Sheik, as the switch is much less practical and much less rewarding/useful. Also, PT should stay completely combined, as there is no other way to play him. I realize they have spots...I was saying it had to stay exactly that way.

I've heard both of these argued before, so I didn't want to have my argument twisted to support either. I was trying to clear up arguments before they happened.

This very same thing can be said for Ike's Neutral Special : Eruption, when fully charged.

It's not always available, as it has a 5 second charge time (!). There is a significant difference between a fully charged and non fully charged one. There are risks associated with a Fully charged Eruption, such as taking 10% to yourself. And Ike is perfectly self contained without using Fully Charged Eruptions.

I call for Ike (FCE) and Ike (NFCE) to be separate characters.

It's ridiculous, is it not? Just place Zelda and Sheik at the same spot.

It's not the same at all....Ike without eruption falls into the exact same category as Olimar without pikmin and MK without dsmash. When Ike uses eruption, he's still Ike. When Ike uses eruption, he doesn't suddenly become Roy and gain a new set of moves. He stays exactly the same. Without Zelda and Sheik, however, they completely give up their current moveset when they transform. That's significant enough to warrant their own spots.

Thus, even is Zelda/Sheik is more versatile than Zelda in general, there will be players who main Zelda who will be unwilling to give up Zelda's natural advantages to play with Sheik, as they can succeed better using only Zelda's moves. The same is true of Sheik mains.

Sure, I'd say it's inferior to a well-played Zelda/Sheik, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid character choice. Ganondorf isn't out of a spot on the list simply because he's more limited than MK.

 

[choknater]

Wow, you idiots. I main Sheik, and I do not switch. I can do well if I entered a tournament with only Sheik, so Sheik deserves a spot on the tier list. There are also people who use solely Zelda, and they can do well in a tournament. Zelda also deserves her own spot.

There are matchups where Sheik-only works better, like against Wolf and Falcon. There are other matchups where Zelda-only works better, like with ROB and Ice Climbers. Then there are those matchups where either character would do equally well, like G&W (both are countered) and DDD (both are about even). Then there are those matchups where both are required, like with Metaknight or Falco.

This argument is dumb.
^Meaning the argument saying that individual sheik and zelda don't deserve spots.

Sheik/Zelda? I don't really know. It's not necessary lol. IMO they're still separate, you're just switching your character in the middle of the match to use their advantages.

 

[memphischains]

huge Font. .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

oversized stuff

oversized stuff is oversized...

 

[Alphicans]

Yes, but he's correct.

 

[Bowser King]

I agree. I don't even know who would bring up such a stupid argument >_>


-Bowser King

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I would

10char

 

[Bowser King]

I would

10char

Well it was pointless


-Bowser King

 

[Golem the Stern Father]

Seing as we passed that meaningless topic, what meaningless topic should we debate next?

*stuff I don't want to get near*

YOU FORGOT THE CAPS LOCK!

 

[Justblaze647]

How about... why is Jiggs placed higher than anyone on the list... let alone Link and Falcon... (maybe Ganondork)

 

[gantrain05]

How about... why is Jiggs placed higher than anyone on the list... let alone Link and Falcon... (maybe Ganondork)

because link and falcon suck ballz and jiggs is awesome, thats why.

 

[tyler36]

Ness, my favorite character, is low tier which is good cause there wont be a suckfest with him

 

[Justblaze647]

because link and falcon suck ballz and jiggs is awesome, thats why.

I can't accept that... Falcon... sucking?

No way.

 

[gantrain05]

I can't accept that... Falcon... sucking?

No way.

we should brawl, my jiggs vs your falcon. lets do eeet! oh im adding you to my brawl roster.

 

[Justblaze647]

we should brawl, my jiggs vs your falcon. lets do eeet! oh im adding you to my brawl roster.

k k... can't do it today though... just pm me whenever your ready

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

funny u guys talking about shiek, teba(D3), #3 in socal, now switched his main to shiek because he says playing D3 is like not even playing the game anymore so maybe i can see what the fuss is about

 

[jogues_street]

does it have to be a playable character bc pikmans are small but i would either say kirbs when crouched or olimar

 

[DanGR]

I agree. I don't even know who would bring up such a stupid argument >_>

My arguments are valid- much more valid than randomly saying that they aren't.

Seing as we passed that meaningless topic, what meaningless topic should we debate next?YOU FORGOT THE CAPS LOCK!

I'm not finished just yet. I want someone to prove me wrong. It's just silly not to put them together. (as a separate character from Sheik and Zelda, which can have their own spots.)

Here are the facts:
-Sheik/Zelda does better against some characters than either Sheik or Zelda do alone. (arguably against most characters) When you disregard those advantages...idk. You just can't. I really don't see where the debate is...
-Switching to Sheik or Zelda midmatch restores your attacks. That alone is significant enough to make a distinction.
-Arguing that downb "switches their moves too much to count them as one character. blah blah blah"...that doesn't matter.
-What tier is Sheik that uses Zelda to kill? Do you just include that within Sheik's tier position? (where do you draw the line?)
- [According to Ankoku's tourney rankings,] Sheik/Zelda is doing just better than both Sheik and Zelda individually. Is that not proof enough?

I understand that you can use Sheik alone or Zelda alone and be just fine. If you use just one you're doing one of the following,... (neither of which support an argument that they shouldn't be combined to form a separate character from Sheik and Zelda individually)
1) you just don't like Zelda or Sheik for whatever reason- whether you don't like Sheik's manlyness/ Zelda's femeninity or just their playstyles.
2) you're being ignorant of the fact that, overall, Zelda kills better and Sheik racks better,
3) you don't have any association with either of these^ and you're lying to yourself.

And...

A good point

this^.

It's really simple guys. >_>

 

[Excellence]

Over 90% of SmashBoard's posters are idiots who fall for the hook of whoever posts to them first. I guarentee if Hylian or SamuraiPanda posted that material they'd be riding it from now till kingdom come. Just disreguard obvious ignorance, Dan, it's not worth arguing.

 

[Frown]

Jiggz > Ganondorf > Sonic > Link > Craptain Failcon

That's what I think.

 

[gamer8]

After a full spring and summer of competition, the SBR felt as though it was time to take the first stab at a tier list for Brawl. Before I post it, let me remind you all of a few important things:


1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.

2. Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures somethingd different than those things.

3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.

4. This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change.

5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.

6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.


And without further ado, I present to you the official SBR Brawl Tier List (v1.0):

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

This is the lousiest excuse for a tier list I have ever seen in my life.

That is all.

 

[DanGR]

Over 90% of SmashBoard's posters are idiots who fall for the hook of whoever posts to them first. I guarentee if Hylian or SamuraiPanda posted that material they'd be riding it from now till kingdom come. Just disreguard obvious ignorance, Dan, it's not worth arguing.

For real.

I give up on some of you guys. Don't expect any more about this.