The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[BEES]

Can some one explain to me why Falcon is supposedly the worst character in the game i just cant wrap my head around it. How is he worse than yoshi and gannon was i just naturally good with cf when i first started or what?

Falcon will move up a bit inevitably. Now that he's bottom, everyone's gonna play him to humiliate their opponents. Then they'll get good and he'll move up. Just like Bowser and Pichu.

 

[Morrigan]

Bowser is nowhere near as good as Peach. Some tier lists have Peach as a high tier character. She's one of the more technical characters in this game and has a lot of different possibilities with combos and multiple kill moves; her usmash kills some characters at around 85% if you tip it. She can also chaingrab all three spacies to around 30-40%. This works on other characters but not as well. So how exactly does whoever think Bowser is almost or as good as Peach?

You got me wrong. I main Peach.

The other guy asked: "How is Peach better than Bowser?" to which I replied: "How is BOWSER better than PEACH?"

Get it?

 

[DarkISDA]

Without the CG DDD would be placing low in my opinion

But the CG is there to use and people will use it, thus justifying his ranking.

 

[gantrain05]

Pick a character that can't be chaingrabbed and can kill him fairly early.........Zelda. Simple as that. I believe there are other characters that can't be chaingrabbed if i'm not mistaken.

lol, play fox, Dair approach, land behind him, if you hit his shield with 2 Dairs he can't block the whole thing, and ends up getting combo'd up past 100% in about 8 seconds, and fox is immune to the CG.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Neither of them deserve to be in Low tier

And yes, DDDs 3rd place is well justified

With overall matchups taken into account and the fact he is easily comboed and his recovery is good but not great and leaves him vulnerable.
who are you kidding?

 

[WolfCypher]

I have a question: If King Dedede's chaingrab is so godly to warrant him as the third best character in the game, why stop there? Why isn't he THE best character in the game?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have a question: If King Dedede's chaingrab is so godly to warrant him as the third best character in the game, why stop there? Why isn't he THE best character in the game?

'cuz MK and possibly Snake > him

@Shadowlink

Do you mean DDD?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I have a question: If King Dedede's chaingrab is so godly to warrant him as the third best character in the game, why stop there? Why isn't he THE best character in the game?

Metaknight says "hi" with his ridiculously safe and high priority attacks (shuttle loop, tornado, some aerials), superior ground speed, and ridiculous recovery.

Snake wants to also greet you with his ridiculous killing power (nearly ALL of his A moves are kill moves, INCLUDING the jab combo), his explosives, his heavy weight, his good recovery, and his muscular ***.

o.O;

That's why.

Smooth Criminal

 

[choknater]

Easily combo'd? Who are YOU kidding. You even said it yourself that his recovery is good.

With overall matchups taken into account... I'd say yes, he does deserve 3rd. Perhaps it's debatable since his potential is so close to those of G&W and Falco, but yeah, he does deserve it.

Pit, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik.... sure, he has some bad matchups. But he's still a freaking amazing character because how much **** he can unleash, even on the likes of MK.

Also, those "bad matchups" are probably illusory because they are nowhere near impossible for DDD. He can manage. His plethora of good qualities far outweigh the bad ones.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik....

How many of those are exactly overused? Pikachu and Diddy maybe but that's it.

Falco has to deal with MK, Marth and GaW, who are seen more often than any character DDD has a bad match-up against.

What I'm saying is: DDD may have more bad match-ups than BaW or Falco but they don't really hurt him...

 

[choknater]

Yeah Gheb, I totally agree with you. My post was directed at ShadowLink.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know, I just quoted it, since you mentioned the whole bunch

 

[gantrain05]

really, i don't agree, DDD just seems to be pretty average outside of his chaingrab. he's fat, slow, and YES easily combo'd. im not sayin he isn't good, because yeah, the chaingrab does add alot to his game, but when he comes across characters that he can't chaingrab, he doesn't have many options. which is usually why DDD players have a secondary snake or metaknight.

 

[Darth JoBak]

maybe its been brought up and i missed it BUT I was under the impression that Mr G&W is/was widely considered a counter to DeDeDe. If that is the case (could have sworn it was) is the Mr G&W placement on the tier list determined by the TOTAL number of favorable matchups OR because Mr G&W has advantages against R.O.B. and Falco but no advantages against DeDeDe and Snake?

could someone enlighten me please?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It also has something to do with the tournament rankings, something where DDD is better too

 

[Discolicious]

Thanks Guys

It's pretty hilarious how much people complain about the tier list when the variations only apply to the top 15 % of players. Anyway, thanks alot guys I was really interested to see the top two tiers.

 

[Z1GMA]

DDD & MK top tiers..
Kirby high tier..

I too would make my own creations stand out if I were Sakurai !

 

[ShadowLink84]

Easily combo'd? Who are YOU kidding. You even said it yourself that his recovery is good.

What does his recovery have anything to do with him being comboed? He can't use his ^B to escape a combo.

With overall matchups taken into account... I'd say yes, he does deserve 3rd. Perhaps it's debatable since his potential is so close to those of G&W and Falco, but yeah, he does deserve it.

He has more bad matchups than the following.

ROB, MK, Snake, Falco, Marth and Lucario.
Deserving of 3rd?
Heck no.

Pit, Pikachu, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik.... sure, he has some bad matchups. But he's still a freaking amazing character because how much **** he can unleash, even on the likes of MK.

I am quite sure he has maybe one or two more than that considering I doubt he ***** MK.

If you go absed on overall matchups he is definitely not 3rd best character in the game.
yeah he has his CG but thats pretty mcuh it. Which means characters who are fast or can combo or can play safely can be an annoyance because he cannot employ his typical strategies and thus starts to become more predictable.

Also, those "bad matchups" are probably illusory because they are nowhere near impossible for DDD. He can manage. His plethora of good qualities far outweigh the bad ones.

No such thing as an impossible matchup and I never stated that they were.
however the fact remains that they are BAD matchups.
MK, Snake, Falco, ROB and Marth don't have as many as he does.

They also have more options than he does in overall gameplay.
Again he isn't 3rd best character in the game.

The only thing he has over them is tournament results and he lost it to Wario, and Falco.
He is definitely in the single digits but I highly doubt he is 3rd best character. More like 6th.

Sure as hell isn't top tier material. MK and Snake are clearly superior in every way to those below them.

Gheb: The usage a character sees isn't important. The tierlist is supposed to measure the ability of the character in comparison to others. The fact his overall matchup is worse than a few characters definitely should mean something.

 

[Barge]

A Rank <Overused>

5 King Dedede (15 top8, 18 top4, 9 top2, 4 wins) - 329.8 - 5

Well theres obviously something deserving about him if hes the 5th ranked in tournaments. Only outranked by Falco, wario, snake and metaknight

 

[PkTrainerCris]

but falco does better in tournaments, screws like the 75% of the cast, and has a chaingrab to spike, i know falco has his own flaws, but so does DDD

 

[hizzlum]

But the CG is there to use and people will use it, thus justifying his ranking.

Way to point out what I wrote a paragraph about right above this post captain obvious.(FYI) look back at post's to see if someone already said what you are going to post

With overall matchups taken into account... I'd say yes, he does deserve 3rd. Perhaps it's debatable since his potential is so close to those of G&W and Falco, but yeah, he does deserve it.

those "bad matchups" He can manage.

Remeber SBR list a typically tournament result based so match-ups take less of a part in these list than the top 16 in a tourney. Also the genral consensus of match-ups by chart constantly edited on smashboards and many tourney goers is that DDD's weak spot is his match-ups, you say he would be third in a match-up based tier list, yet evidence suggests That MK, falco, Marth,G&W, snake have more advantages and less disadvantages and less equal match-ups on characters than DDD does.
As for he can manage, i think that a good way to put it, but a DDD is going to have trouble "managing" and MK and G&W who clearly have advantage on a slow character with an even more limited movepool without the CG coming from an already limited movepool(Ftilt,utilt,bair,bside, maybe dtilt, are his overused moves in the brawl metagame that he almost always is going to repeat attack with if he cant CG)
In my opinion DDD is like the wobbufett of brawl(goes into metaphors< lol). At first he looks terrible with no attack moves as a pokemon and is a generally slow character in brawl, of which in both games he has a very small movepool used in the metagame. But then you realize his true potencial(shadow tag/destiny bond/encore then mirror or counter/CG in brawl) and is puts him into the uber/top tier beacuse you know he's going to at least kill one of your opponents pokemon/rank top 16 in a tourney.
So all in all ddd thrives in a tournament based list by his easy wins with the CG, yet his match-ups which are inferior to the common tournament going characters in the cast(MK,snake,G&W,falco,ROB,marth) keep him from being the top of the top. the SBR is tournament based, yet the realize that DDD's match-ups many characters, but especially against MK and G&W where he has obvious disadvatage on two characters in almost every tournament, keep him from going to the number 2 or 1 spot, otherwise his CG=easy win and good tournament placement, so I believethe SBR has done their job well by putting DDD as third is a tournament ranking based list. Just my opinion.

maybe its been brought up and i missed it BUT I was under the impression that Mr G&W is/was widely considered a counter to DeDeDe. If that is the case (could have sworn it was) is the Mr G&W placement on the tier list determined by the TOTAL number of favorable matchups OR because Mr G&W has advantages against R.O.B. and Falco but no advantages against DeDeDe and Snake?

could someone enlighten me please?

G&W never has and probably never will be a counter to DDD, MK maybe but G&W can be out ranged by DDD's ftilt and DD has a more reliable projectile, still that match-up is in G&W's favor yet not a counter.

A Rank <Overused>

5 King Dedede (15 top8, 18 top4, 9 top2, 4 wins) - 329.8 - 5

Well theres obviously something deserving about him if hes the 5th ranked in tournaments. Only outranked by Falco, wario, snake and metaknight

Remember that ankoku refreshes that ranking page like every month, and you just got unlouck and saw it at a time where DDD was not actually 3rd or 4th in his rankings, if you go back and seehis tournament rankings from march till now(of which from june he put in top 2,that could have misplaced some characters in his point thing) and you'll see DDD higher than fifth in his total tournament rankings

.

If you go absed on overall matchups he is definitely not 3rd best character in the game.

Then you have a contradiction with the SBR. The SBR creates tier lists that are tourney based, while other fighting games create tier lists by match-ups, It is completly true that in a match-up based tier list for brawl DDD would not be thrid(also marth would be around fourth/3rd rather than 7th), but The SBR bias towards what happens in tournament is seen in this list with DDD. I have inside knwoledge from SBR memebers that this list is tourney based, so shadowlink i feel ur pain(in my opinion brawl should have match-up based tier list that come out of the SBR) But as we go with how the SBR, which takes tournaments into more consideration then match-ups, DDD will remain 3rd till the CG is escapeable with a non situational move.

It's pretty hilarious how much people complain about the tier list when the variations only apply to the top 15 % of players. Anyway, thanks alot guys I was really interested to see the top two tiers.

Well for a noob post like that, it obvious you would think that way. Tiers effect anyone that spends $ at a tourney entry fee. They all know the tiers and they show what kind of characters will probably be used during the tourney(i.e.As MK is #1 it is going to be obvious that there going to be at least one MK in a money tourney, and Snake,DDD,G&W,Falco,ROB,marth and wario will at most times make there appearance) so yes knowing this tiers also helps you find out who/what you are going to do for counterpicking stages and characters, so by knowing there is gonna be mK's are wise person will have a counterpick stage already in mind that benefits their character or makes it more difficult for the mk or chose a character that mk has even match-ups with, like DK or G&W, or you could go for an MK ditto. So by knowing these tier lists it can help your understanding of what is occuring in the brawl metagame and gives a good foundation on what counterpicks of stages and characters in brawl. Then there is character potencial, which the SBR believes is mostly shown through their rankings in a tournament, and to a point there is a lot of vailidity in that,(yet in my opinion match-ups should be looked upon more often by the SBR when making a list), so if you don't know who to main, characters with a lot of potencial is at times a good way to start(not true for fox in melee), beacuse the smash community believes that their metagame suceeds in tournaments and is not completly 3stocked by a top/high tier character

 

[Barge]

Remember that ankoku refreshes that ranking page like every month, and you just got unlouck and saw it at a time where DDD was not actually 3rd or 4th in his rankings, if you go back and seehis tournament rankings from march till now(of which from june he put in top 2,that could have misplaced some characters in his point thing) and you'll see DDD higher than fifth in his total tournament rankings

Then thats even better, even more proof that his 3rd place tier ranking goes justified

 

[hizzlum]

Then thats even better, even more proof that his 3rd place tier ranking goes justified

In your comment above it sounds as if your degrading DDD by showing ankoku's rankings as he now is in 5th, I personally have never thought of DDD as nothing less than a high teir character after learning he had a CG in march. Were on the same side on this one dude, in tournament rankings we both believe that DDD deserves the 3rd spot of the top tier(In my opinion that would be the cutoff and then it would start with G&W at the top of the very high tier with falco,ROB,marth and wario in that order in that tier, then lucario,DK and the rest in the high/ upper tier)

 

[choknater]

wow what a strong defense for DDD not being 3rd

good luck against pro ddd's

i give up and will not argue

because i am lazy and i main ddd

 

[gantrain05]

wow what a strong defense for DDD not being 3rd

good luck against pro ddd's

i give up and will not argue

because i am lazy and i main ddd

i guess i don't see DDD as much of a threat, seeing as i main fox most of the time, and hardly have trouble with him at all, but i guess, if you have a character thats not immune to the CG you would certainly have problems, although i do play bowser alot, and while DDD has a chaingrab on me, i also have one on him, that i can end in a Ftilt or Dtilt for a KO unlike DDD's CG. i actually do beat good DDD's with my bowser, its probably about 30-40% of the time, but it happens, and i've never lost to one as fox.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD chaingrab can easily end in KOs...

 

[Umby]

DDD & MK top tiers..
Kirby high tier..

I too would make my own creations stand out if I were Sakurai !

This might just be a great post.

 

[gantrain05]

DDD chaingrab can easily end in KOs...

ok, well not stating any ways is a sure good way to get your point across.

 

[JJR.O.B.]

ok, well not stating any ways is a sure good way to get your point across.

If the DDD does a fthrow at the end of the chaingrab you might very well die.

 

[Chaos F-15]

I feel that it's too early to have a tier list.
The tiers WILL change dramatically.

 

[Justblaze647]

If the DDD does a fthrow at the end of the chaingrab you might very well die.

Not really unless your around 120%...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not talking about the fthrow but the fact that DDDs Edgeguarding can easily be used afterwards...

 

[M.K]

Ness.....low?
Dang! So is Lucas!

No love for the mother bros.

Also, what does Kirby have exactly that makes him high tier? :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What does Kirby lack to be lower than high tier?

Earthbounders should really be mid tier imo

 

[MyNameIsRyan]

Wow i main a character in each tier.

 

[brinboy789]

I feel that it's too early to have a tier list.
The tiers WILL change dramatically.

agreed and adding these letters because my post is too short with just agreed

 

[Deathcarter]

i guess i don't see DDD as much of a threat, seeing as i main fox most of the time, and hardly have trouble with him at all, but i guess, if you have a character thats not immune to the CG you would certainly have problems, although i do play bowser alot, and while DDD has a chaingrab on me, i also have one on him, that i can end in a Ftilt or Dtilt for a KO unlike DDD's CG. i actually do beat good DDD's with my bowser, its probably about 30-40% of the time, but it happens, and i've never lost to one as fox.

Gantrain, I find it hard to beleive that you can beat tournament level DDDs (since you said they were good, I would be predisposed to call them tournament level, since that is the only skill level that matter) using Bowser who gets infinited by DDD. Those DDDs. are probably not that good.

And honestly, DDD's chaingrab allows for 8 damage per throw, sets up for edgeguarding, and single handedly gives DDD the advantage in most of his top/high tier matchups or makes it neutral. And that is before you factor in stages in DDD's favor like Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, Smashville, etc. DDD is more than deserving of 3rd place. The chaingrab is THAT good.

 

[Alphicans]

I've been looking at link lately, and to be honest I can see him moving up ALOT. Not into high or top, but at least mid tier. His dair has the priority of a god, all of his arials are really good, he has a useful zair which autocancels, and he can dash attack cancel his usmash for a snakedash like effect. All three of his projectiles are very useful, and his boomerang can act as a pretty good edgeguarder. The potential for link is so great, we will see him constantly moving up in the tier list... IMO of course. I understand his bad recovery isn't the only reason for his placement, but I wanna know what made you guys decide him to be so low. Well at least opinions from other posters, as I do not expect Broomers to respond to this .

 

[Dark Sonic]

I still don't see how Sonic is worse than Samus, Pokemon Trainer, Mario (well, maybe Mario), and Yoshi

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I feel that it's too early to have a tier list.

It is always too early for a tier list. That's the golden rule.