The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[EvolveOrDie]

Oooo logic let me try

Going by no logic, wearing no pants will affect the tierlist

Do i win a cookie?

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ I suspect that Ness should go up... and Kirby would go down. D= ☆

 

[Chuee]

Oooo logic let me try

Going by no logic, wearing no pants will affect the tierlist

Do i win a cookie?

No, eat your vegetables first.

 

[PhantomX]

@Matador... I think you mean his beard is as long as Dumbledore's from the first two movies.

 

[Deathcarter]

Great players make mistakes.

M2K got hit by that fair more than once between his and Ally's Apex and Genesis matchups. I think it is plasuible to beleive that top players are able to land the move at the top of the metagame as opposed to Warlock Punch or something to that extent.

Regardless of how you look at Snake's fair, I think we can agree that it is still a stronger and more practical kill move than all of Lucas's aerials though.

 

[Gindler]

M2K messing up does not suddenly make Snake's fair not slow. >_>

Ha, that move is soooooo slow. Probably the slowest spike.

M2K got hit by that fair more than once between his and Ally's Apex and Genesis matchups. I think it is plasuible to beleive that top players are able to land the move at the top of the metagame as opposed to Warlock Punch or something to that extent.

Regardless of how you look at Snake's fair, I think we can agree that it is still a stronger and more practical kill move than all of Lucas's aerials though.

Lucas' aerials are ALL better than Snake's Fair. They might not kill well but set up for kills pretty well (dair>dtilt lock>Fsmash)

There's a reason snake's Fair is rarely used...........................

 

[zeldspazz]

@Matador... I think you mean his beard is as long as Dumbledore's from the first two movies.

*claps* you sir win this discussion of beard lengths

 

[Matador]

@Matador... I think you mean his beard is as long as Dumbledore's from the first two movies.

You're so clever it gets me hot

 

[AvariceX]

I'm actually relieved by the pointless beard debate going on. It takes away from the eyesore Ness vs Lucas debate. We have people who don't have a ****ing clue about Ness (seriously, 2 different people said Ness only has 2 kill moves, then they both mentioned different moves, and both failed to mention Ness' most reliable kill move - nair), arguing with people who don't have a **** clue about Lucas (myself included).

beards for isai tier

 

[PhantomX]

You're so clever it gets me hot

Awesome, I've been in the mood for some dark chocolate

 

[ShadowLink84]

M2K got hit by that fair more than once between his and Ally's Apex and Genesis matchups. I think it is plasuible to beleive that top players are able to land the move at the top of the metagame as opposed to Warlock Punch or something to that extent.

Great players make mistakes.
I cannot see as to why you are arguing.
Hell I've managed to Falcon punch some excellent players, doesnt matter though.

 

[deepseadiva]

I meant to answer this earlier:

And finally Ness is very capable of recovering high; his second jump goes very high on its own, and PKT2 can be used to shoot yourself straight upwards, after which you have full control over your free-fall (only Ness and Lucas have this). Only moves with really low knockback angles (D3's dtilt) can ever force you to aim for the ledge, and only if you fail to DI up. I really wish some of my recent Ness matches were recorded ><.

Whut.

I'd like video evidence because this doesn't sound like it would work... like, at all. Snake can recover high since his up-b covers great distance along with immense flexibility (he can airdodge, C4, etc.). Snake recovers high and gets to the stage safely.

Dedede can do somewhat the same. He has several (albeit puny) jumps, and a up-b that flies. It'll give him massive lag if he manages to land, but at least he has the stars to protect him. And even if he's hit, his weight will keep him close to the stage - if not still on it. @___@

Ness trying to recover high sounds like FAIL. If his second jump doesn't manage to reach the ledge or better, PKT2 sends him only a moderate distance with terrible lag afterward.

And the quote in the blue. Can't most characters do that...?

 

[:mad:]

And the quote in the blue. Can't most characters do that...?

Clearly, you cannot read.

Only Ness/Lucas can do this.

 

[AvariceX]

Only Ness and Lucas keep their full aerial control/maneuverability after using their up-b recoveries and going into free-fall.

Say what you want about recovering high with Ness, but like I said what happens in practice is far more important; and in practice numerous high-top level players have failed to gimp me.

 

[:mad:]

I think I understand. When they go into their free-fall state, they maintain the same aerial movement? Like how Wolf has noticeably lower aerial maneuverability when he goes into his free-fall state?

 

[PhantomX]

Wario has the same maneuverability after his as well... but his up b sucks :D

 

[Gindler]

Wario has the same maneuverability after his as well... but his up b sucks :D

Does he? It always seemed slower to me.

Then again I only use that POS move on the rare occasion I'm getting gimped and have no other choice.

I could've sworn yoshi's the same speed once he goes into freefall, you just NEVER see it since aerial egg roll is dumb

 

[deepseadiva]

Say what you want about recovering high with Ness, but like I said what happens in practice is far more important; and in practice numerous high-top level players have failed to gimp me.

Of course.

Real stuff > Talky talk.

But, even if it did work. I can only see it working once. Taking the risk of weaving in and out of attacks in freefall could work, but then the opponent would learn to just watch the ledge, wait for the landing, then grab/smash/special. Theoretically, this doesn't work.

Of course, if this does work in practice, I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

...but it doesn't.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Does he? It always seemed slower to me.

Then again I only use that POS move on the rare occasion I'm getting gimped and have no other choice.

I could've sworn yoshi's the same speed once he goes into freefall, you just NEVER see it since aerial egg roll is dumb

Wolf maintains his speed during free fall but he needs a boost. If you do it off a side B and cancel it, you'll go the same speed as one usually does in the air.
Its just that most recoveries have a stop at the end, then they restart but with much lower aerial acceleration.

Least thats what i think when I look at Wolf, Fox and Falco.

 

[codfish92]

oh yes, people forgot to celebrate the fact that captain falcon is now only the third worst in the game instead of absolute worst in the game. I'll buy the beer!!!!

 

[Xebenkeck]

Lucas has 2 Meteors + Uair wich can kill early.

Dair sets up to jab lock, so it is a potencial killing move if landed, and a spike.

His only weak aerial is Fair, but thats more of a spacing tool than a killing one.

Ness has the second best spike in the game. 5% += death. You can meteor cancel lucas' spikes and still live.

Ness' uair kills way earlier.

Ness' dair does aswell and ness can dtilt lock you after a jab lock for another 20% then into a tipper bat.

Ness' fair is a better spacer.

 

[AvariceX]

oh yes, people forgot to celebrate the fact that captain falcon is now only the third worst in the game instead of absolute worst in the game. I'll buy the beer!!!!

I've been convinced for a while (thanks Ally -_-) that Falcon should actually be a little higher than he is even now. When all is said and done I believe Jiggs will eventually be the bottom of bottom character (though maybe she'll stay above Ganon).

 

[kciD]

Personally, I play DeDeDe better than Wario, but Wario's recovery is probably what puts him above D^3. I never expected that the big fat guys would be so high in the tier list. Woo!

 

[:mad:]

Personally, I play DeDeDe better than Wario, but Wario's recovery is probably what puts him above D^3. I never expected that the big fat guys would be so high in the tier list. Woo!

Neither of them get gimped often, if ever.

Recovery doesn't really play that big of a role...

 

[smashkng]

Personally, I play DeDeDe better than Wario, but Wario's recovery is probably what puts him above D^3. I never expected that the big fat guys would be so high in the tier list. Woo!

Wario has more balanced matchups overall, he has no real bad matchup. Dedede's matchups against those he can't chain grab are bad overall. But both have the best heavyweight recovery.

 

[Red Arremer]

Dedede's matchups against those he can't chain grab are bad overall.

Wrong.

10wrongs

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ness has the second best spike in the game. 5% += death. You can meteor cancel lucas' spikes and still live.

You can't do that if it's someone with a crap vertical recovery. (Talking from experience )

I've been convinced for a while (thanks Ally -_-) that Falcon should actually be a little higher than he is even now. When all is said and done I believe Jiggs will eventually be the bottom of bottom character (though maybe she'll stay above Ganon).

What matchups does Captain Falcon have that are better than even? Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon any day of the week.

Personally, I play DeDeDe better than Wario, but Wario's recovery is probably what puts him above D^3. I never expected that the big fat guys would be so high in the tier list. Woo!

Recovery isn't really that big a deal. It's only characters with absolutely crap recoveries that suffer from it much (e.g. Link).

 

[Frown]

Wario has more balanced matchups overall, he has no real bad matchup. Dedede's matchups against those he can't chain grab are bad overall. But both have the best heavyweight recovery.

People need to understand that Dedede is a good character even WIHTOUT that chaingrab. Sure, the chaingrab usually deals 25%, but a pummel + bthrow deals 19%.

 

[chandy]

People also need to understand that Link can recover from anything if good DI is put into practice. Horizontal hits (such as Zelda downsmash) can be ledgecaught by zair. And any other hit, can be DI'd into the top corner and easily recovered. The fact that he's susceptible to gimps when recovering is another matter... but stop saying Link cannot recover, it's other characters which can easily stop him recovering.

 

[Browny]

Theres a video on the net somewhere of a Sonic surviving ness' dair offstage at about 120%, thanks to the spring

 

[Red Arremer]

it's other characters which can easily stop him recovering.

Which equals into not being able to recover.

 

[:mad:]

Theres a video on the net somewhere of a Sonic surviving ness' dair offstage at about 120%, thanks to the spring

I've seen it too. Good meteor cancelling/good recovery means you'll live longer against Dairs like that.

 

[PhantomX]

That's b/c Ness dair decreases in strength with damage. Ness dair is the strongest spike in the game AT ZERO PERCENT. As your opponent takes more damage, the spike actually weakens, whereas Ganon's dair strengthens, making it the strongest after a certain percentage.

 

[Browny]

is that the only attack in the game to do so?

his fthrow also has kinda weird properties but i think thats just set knockback like DDD dthrow

 

[:mad:]

iirc, Ness's throws work in reverse. At lower percents, Fthrow goes farther, much farther. It starts to weaken, regardless of whether or not you use it. Bthrow only gets stronger at higher percents, to the dismay of a lot of people that get killed by it.

 

[Chuee]

I'm actually relieved by the pointless beard debate going on. It takes away from the eyesore Ness vs Lucas debate. We have people who don't have a ****ing clue about Ness (seriously, 2 different people said Ness only has 2 kill moves, then they both mentioned different moves, and both failed to mention Ness' most reliable kill move - nair), arguing with people who don't have a **** clue about Lucas (myself included).

beards for isai tier

No, nair is in no way a reliable kill move for ness.

Ness has the second best spike in the game. 5% += death. You can meteor cancel lucas' spikes and still live.

Ness' uair kills way earlier.

Ness' dair does aswell and ness can dtilt lock you after a jab lock for another 20% then into a tipper bat.

Ness' fair is a better spacer.

1. Good luck getting someone downwards offstage at 5%.
2. Ness' uair kills earlier but not by that much.
3. Ness' dair is not a good jab lock setup.
4. Lucas has PKF which spaces a lot better than ness' fair.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. Good luck getting someone downwards offstage at 5%.

Fthrow.
Even then the Dair is actually quite a powerful spike.

3. Ness' dair is not a good jab lock setup.

Might I ask why?

4. Lucas has PKF which spaces a lot better than ness' fair.

PK fire is crap. Don't joke like that.

 

[Nestec]

Ness has the second best most powerful spike in the game.

I can think of other spikes that are better, though not as strong.

EDIT: NO MOAR NESS TALK, gets me all antsy and ****

 

[adumbrodeus]

I can think of other spikes that are better, though not as strong.

EDIT: NO MOAR NESS TALK, gets me all antsy and ****

It's percent dependant, the vast majority of the time, it's the second third most powerful aerial spike (Ganondorf's down-b is less powerful but has almost twice the growth rate, and his dair is more striking then that).

For ground, Luigi's down taunt is more powerful, as is Ike's dtilt (slightly).

Source

 

[Nestec]

That reminds me, I was like O_O when I first discovered the spiking property of Ganon's downB.

/hardly relevant whatsoever