The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[bigman40]

Actually, I'll tell you most of them that I know are reliable and even inescapable.

Bair (1st or 2nd hit) -> Usmash/Fsmash
Rising Nair sends at low trajectory for kills
DownB is for people that attack up close to us. They get caught in the beginning of the move, they're normally dead.

We have CG Usmashes on a few characters (Lucas, MK, Bowser, Ganon, Squirtle, Diddy Kong)
We have Uair setups out of a grab release (Ness + Jiggz, Wario)
We have Fair setups out of a grab release over the edge (Squirtle + Shiek)
We have DT Fsmash setups out of a grab release (Squirtle, Lucas, Ganon "I think")
Wario can get Fsmashed, Usmashed, and Uaired out of release.

Can't you grab Yoshi out of DJ and let him release with only his upB to recover with?

We shouldn't be at a recovering scenario for you to understand what I mean. If you are approaching us or trying to get in chip damage, then we can interrupt it and Nair or Uair you away from us. I've done this on the stage against a Lucario (even though it didn't kill him), and it made him think different about approaching me at lower percents.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Those are only on a few characters though. In terms of reliable set-ups that work on the majority of characters, Mario is superior.

 

[bigman40]

Those are only on a few characters though. In terms of reliable set-ups that work on the majority of characters, Mario is superior.

Then you list his setups like I have. Even though it's only on a select few of characters, having a kill option that inescapable means a lot when you need to land a kill move in a match.

 

[Matador]

That thing is enough unless Yoshi is under the stage.

We shouldn't be at a recovering scenario for you to understand what I mean. If you are approaching us or trying to get in chip damage, then we can interrupt it and Nair or Uair you away from us. I've done this on the stage against a Lucario (even though it didn't kill him), and it made him think different about approaching me at lower percents.

So you CAN grab release him out of his DJ?

Also, regarding setups, I don't think Mario has many. They don't make or break KO power viability though; they're just nice to have.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'd rather have universal but not guaranteed set-ups than guaranteed but only on a select few characters set-ups any day. Among other things:

- Fireballs can lead into a kill move because they have quite high hitstun (by Brawl's standards at least).

- Cape can be used for mindgames to land the kill move (most often a Fair or Bair, since it tends to work better in the air)

- BThrow and FThrow set the opponent at just the right angle for some edgeguarding.

- DThrow can lead into Uair and other aerials.

Those are off the top of my head. Straked probably knows far more about Mario than I do, so he could give you some better examples.

Edit: Plus Mario has a better general arsenal of kill moves, both in variety and speed.

 

[bigman40]

So you CAN grab release him out of his DJ?

Also, regarding setups, I don't think Mario has many. They don't make or break KO power viability though; they're just nice to have.

Yeah, but why would we make something like that look soo obvious?

@Mountain Tiger:

If you wanna use Mindgames to list out potential setups, I can just as easily go into DR and Egg shenanigans. Plus, you listed potential gimping options, which I did not include. I listed things that are hard to see coming most of the time, and things that you can't really dodge (you can, but it's hella hard to dodge it).

Mario and Yoshi are not much different in terms of killing. If you can tell me why it's that much different, then feel free to do so, but as far as I know, it's fairly much of the same for both of them.

 

[Deathcarter]

Tiger/Straked/Matador, you guys never contested my low risk, high reward point. Because in that regard, Yoshi's uair beats everything Mario has. It's fast, powerful, not easily punishable, and an excellent juggling tool on everyone except Jigglypuff and possibly Wario and Link (albeit for his dair) due to Yoshi's air speed.

Some of the best kill moves don't even have setups but are excellent because of the risk-reward trade-off (albeit Yoshi does have to get his opponent above him, but I don't recall Mario having a move as good as uair in regards to killing.)

 

[Matador]

If you wanna use Mindgames to list out potential setups, I can just as easily go into DR and Egg shenanigans. Plus, you listed potential gimping options, which I did not include. I listed things that are hard to see coming most of the time, and things that you can't really dodge (you can, but it's hella hard to dodge it).

Mario and Yoshi are not much different in terms of killing. If you can tell me why it's that much different, then feel free to do so, but as far as I know, it's fairly much of the same for both of them.

Setups are great, but there's more to weigh in than that when measuring KO potential. That's why that thread about lowest KO potential had so many varying opinions. For example:

Mario's Fsmash has really deceptive range because of the stutterstep. Angled up, it kills rather low even when you miss the sweetspot.

Usmash is good OOS. It also has high priority.

Dsmash is only good fresh. Even then, it doesn't KO very low and is easily DI'd, but still is about as powerful as Diddy's, which remains one of his primary KO moves.

Bthrow KOs at 165+ on most characters, but it's a throw....

Utilt KOs at 180%, but is stupid easy to land.

Unless the setup is like Shiek's Ftilt -> Usmash or Ness' Bthrow, then listing setups to measure KO potential is all sorts of pointless.

Edit @ Deathcarter: Yoshi's Uair is pretty fantastic and is the only reason Yoshi and Mario are close in KO potential imo. How do you expect that I measure how much risk/reward all of Mario's moves have in comparison to Yoshi's?

Mario's Usmash is 52 risk, but only 43 reward

 

[Frown]

Mario is one of the few characters in Brawl that actually have to worry about making it back to the stage once knocked off.

 

[bigman40]

Alright then, you have 3 KO moves from the getgo, and then you have 2 more that come into play after higher percents.

We have 4 KO moves from the getgo, and then we have 2 KO moves that come into play after higher percents.

There's not much different there at all. Which is why I'm saying that Mario and Yoshi are not much different when it comes to killing.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ignoring set-ups, let's look at the kill moves each character possesses.

- Yoshi has USmash, FSmash, Uair, Fair and Dair.
- Mario has USmash, FSmash, DSmash, Fair and Bair.

Let's look at that a bit more in depth, shall we?

- Yoshi's FSmash and Mario's FSmash are similar in terms of knockback, except that Yoshi's has more ending lag while Mario's has more start-up lag. So they balance out. Their USmashes are also qutie similar in power, but Mario's has less lag, making Mario's better overall. Yoshi does, however, have the Uair, which is fast, powerful and has pretty good range. The only real problem with it is that it's telegraphed somewhat. Mario's DSmash, but contrast is less powerful, but it's quick and still kills at reasonable percents. Their Fairs are comparable, in that they're slow and extremely situational, so they're not much good. Finally, Mario's Bair is better than Yoshi's Dair because Mario's Bair is faster and Yoshi's Dair is telegraphed to hell and back.

Overall, Yoshi does have a great Uair, but I would say that Mario beats him out overall in terms of reliability.

 

[talkingbeatles]

One of Yoshi's most reliable kill moves though takes place in the air, and can be used over a stage. I don't think Mario has that going for him. His bair doesn't kill, and fair is only does so off stage. Yoshi's got a fair that can kill as well though. It looks like he's going for the aerial kill moves, while Mario gets his off on the ground. That doesn't sound two similar.

 

[Matador]

Mario is one of the few characters in Brawl that actually have to worry about making it back to the stage once knocked off.

It's still adequate. And unless you ledgehog or knock him away after his second jump, he'll probably make it back. Only that awkward Zelda dsmash angle kills him, and that's the worst angle in the game.

He's got a variety of options for when he's on the ledge too.

Alright then, you have 3 KO moves from the getgo, and then you have 2 more that come into play after higher percents.

We have 4 KO moves from the getgo, and then we have 2 KO moves that come into play after higher percents.

There's not much different there at all. Which is why I'm saying that Mario and Yoshi are not much different when it comes to killing.

You also have to weigh the power, range, and speed of each of their KO moves before coming to a conclusion.

Snake has like...one kill move. But it's better than all of Yoshi's and all of Mario's.

 

[Frown]

Snake has like...one kill move.

...

wat

Spoiler

Utilt ftilt uair bair and 4 kinds of exlosions

 

[mountain_tiger]

It's still adequate. And unless you ledgehog or knock him away after his second jump, he'll probably make it back. Only that awkward Zelda dsmash angle kills him, and that's the worst angle in the game.

I'd argue that being hit directly downwards is the worst, but then I'm a Peach main, so of course I'd say that!

Snake has like...one kill move. But it's better than all of Yoshi's and all of Mario's.

What do you mean, one kill move? He has way more than that!

 

[bigman40]

Wtf? Dair as a kill move? We won't be using that unless their recovery is complete ****. I'ma list out our kills moves for you:

Fsmash
Usmash
Nair
Fair
Uair
DownB

Nair comes into play later in killing normally (about 150+), and Fair is just bad, but it has better strength and priority (maybe? I'm not sure, but if a Mario main thinks other wise, let me know) to make it a little better than Mario's Fair.

Mario's and Yoshi's Usmash is not any different at all. Our Usmash is an excellent anti-air move (his whole head is completely invincible), and Mario's is too, but we have much more range on our Usmash. The Usmashes are not different.

From what I've seen, Bair is used quite alot for damaging. Unless someone DIs is fairly bad, then they aren't going to be dying from it anytime soon.

Our DownB kills equally as our Usmash, but it's a good kill move when the first hit of it picks up people. We don't use it much so it's always sitting there as a kill move, and it can shield poke and use the stars to protect us somewhat.

Like I said, there's no difference in terms of who's better when they're practically the same in killing.

@ Matador:

Snake is a stronger character over Mario and Yoshi. His killing potential is easily seen, and it easily makes him a threat. Yoshi and Mario don't have that kind of killing amount, so most people aren't even worried too much when they're in killing range against us. They know to just play safe so that it'll make things hard for the two to squeeze in a good kill move. This is where I'm getting at; there's no difference in the killing potential of Mario and Yoshi.

I know that you have to weigh in those factors before coming to a true conclusion. If you wanna so the work for all of that, then be my guest, but all I did was take the general look of it and made that. I play both characters, and I see no difference in their killing potential.

 

[Nestec]

I'd agree that it's probably safe to say that they are equal enough in terms of killing power. If they are so close that it takes THIS long to determine a victor, it's probably not even worth arguing.

I also must say that Yoshi's recovery vs. Mario's recovery is a pretty generous PLUS for Yoshi. You can go ahead and say Mario's recovery is"not bad" or "good enough". But Yoshi's is still better.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I think that we can all agree that Yoshi's recovery is without a doubt better. I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise.

 

[Shiri]

Snake has like...one kill move. But it's better than all of Yoshi's and all of Mario's.

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

I want to say I stopped reading here, but in truth, it's just where the credibility came to a screeching halt, ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

...

wat

Spoiler

Utilt ftilt uair bair and 4 kinds of exlosions

inorite?

o wait u r 4getting teh other a moovs like jabz and nair and stuff

Okay, but seriously.

I don't see why people are causing such a fuss over who is better.

Bigz is right; both characters are pretty equal in terms of KO power on paper. I mean, I think Mario relies entirely on gimmicks, luck, and ******** opponents, but I can respect the fact that, on paper, his KO options are more or less equal to Yoshi's.

It's really not a big deal.

 

[Matador]

...

wat

Utilt ftilt uair bair and 4 kinds of exlosions

You're missing my point. Even if Snake DID have one KO move, utilt, he would have a better overall KO potential than Mario and Yoshi.

He OBVIOUSLY isn't capable of killing with only one move, but Utilt is by far his best and most reliable one. Without it, he'd have to keep his Ftilt fresh or something.

@ Matador:

[/B]I know that you have to weigh in those factors before coming to a true conclusion. If you wanna so the work for all of that, then be my guest, but all I did was take the general look of it and made that. I play both characters, and I see no difference in their killing potential.

If all we're doing is scratching the surface, then you can have even. Exactly why I stated before that it's pretty pointless to debate it.

Just concede that I'm right >_>

Edit @ Shiri:

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

I want to say I stopped reading here, but in truth, it's just where the credibility came to a screeching halt, ROFLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!

-_-

I love when people take what I say completely literally...I suppose you were rolling on the floor laughing...laughing...laughing...laughing too right?

 

[Shiri]

I'll concede on behalf of bigman40.

You are right. :D

P.S. - I totally was. I was LOLing down the hallway and everything, d00.

 

[Matador]

I'll concede on behalf of bigman40.

You are right. :D

U can't do that. We're beefing. We're supposed to sling passive-aggressive insults for 2 and a half pages, as per SWF protocol.

 

[bigman40]

If all we're doing is scratching the surface, then you can have even. Exactly why I stated before that it's pretty pointless to debate it.

Just concede that I'm right >_>

If what you are saying is right by this post:

This only applies if you're terrible.

Mario is FAR from being unable to kill. He sure enough kills better than Yoshi -_-

Then I'm not gonna agree. Why don't you concede to me? There's no difference in them killing, and if people really wanted to explain it, then they would have to have about 1 page of **** explaining why it's different. If that post I quoted was just a trolling post and you agree that it's even, then I agree too.

 

[Shiri]

If we do ANYTHING according to SWF protocol...

...we'd be arguing in a giant thread about two characters who don't matter regarding KO power which neither of them have instead of discussing worthwhile tournament matchups and the implications that those matchups have on lesser known characters as opposed to why Yoshi is better than Mario.

Oh.

Wait.

 

[Zenthewanderer]

While I'm a big fan of both Yoshi and Mario, I find it easier to kill with the plumber. Thanks in no small part to the Cape and Fireballs. The Fireball is simply much better than the egg when it comes to setting up for a KO. Mountain Tiger hit the nail on the head with his bullet-points, really.

Honestly, the two aren't far apart in KO potential, but I'd still give Mario the nudge. Mario's gimping game also puts him ahead. With the Cape, FLUDD, and his -granted situational- Fair, the scale gets tipped into his favor.

One man's oppinion. Not worth fighting because I don't have much else to say on my part. Feel free to see it differently- the world is beautiful because of its infinite perspectives.

 

[Matador]

If what you are saying is right by this post:



Then I'm not gonna agree. Why don't you concede to me? There's no difference in them killing, and if people really wanted to explain it, then they would have to have about 1 page of **** explaining why it's different. If that post I quoted was just a trolling post and you agree that it's even, then I agree too.

Trolling? I'm not allowed my opinion? I think Mario kills better than Yoshi. I'm unable to prove it, you're unable to prove otherwise.

Thus, a pointless argument.

If we do ANYTHING according to SWF protocol...

...we'd be arguing in a giant thread about two characters who don't matter regarding KO power which neither of them have instead of discussing worthwhile tournament matchups and the implications that those matchups have on lesser known characters as opposed to why Yoshi is better than Mario.

Oh.

Wait.

Precisely. Now.

I'll let you go first.

 

[Shiri]

Mario sucks.

Oh wait.

Were we doing the insult thingy or talking about actual stuff?

Either is fine with me.

 

[Matador]

Mario sucks.

Oh wait.

Were we doing the insult thingy or talking about actual stuff?

Either is fine with me.

Insult disguised as actual stuff.

Ex: Yoshi's only up there because alot of people use him. It doesn't prove that he's better than anyone below him.

Spoiler

Am I grinding ur gearz?

 

[Shiri]

Insult disguised as actual stuff.

Ex: Yoshi's only up there because alot of people use him. It doesn't prove that he's better than anyone below him.

Spoiler

Am I grinding ur gearz?

Ooooooooooohhhhhhh, cool! :D

So like...

Mario's gimps are gimmicks to get free stock from chump players who couldn't recover if they had ten jumps, three Up+Bs, and five different tethers. And Lucarios.

Like that?

I WOULD SAY YOU ARE GRINDING MY GEARS BUT MY RED LETTERS CLEARLY PUT ME ON A HIGHER PLANE OF MENTAL COGNITION THAN YOU ARE

 

[bigman40]

Lol @ the amount of stupidness. If you think the other character does better, and he's your main, then you should be able to prove it. If you can't prove it, then you have nothing to state.

Yoshi is my main, and I also play Mario. They don't have any difference in killing potential. If you wanna state your opinion on it, then back the ****ing **** up people. If you can't, stay the **** out of the debate.

 

[Shiri]

Easy there bigman40.

With your censor asterisks.

And your logic.

We're trading insults here.

Insult someone or go home.

P.S. - Can we talk about Yoshi v. some character that matters or Mario v. some character that matters?

 

[Zenthewanderer]

Let me say that I don't want to get sucked into the argument. As I've pointed out before, debates simply don't matter to me. Just commenting on the current topic. Though not on the KO Power: Mario Vs Yoshi issue.

In the future I can see Yoshi rising, but Mario falling. Many of Mario's best tricks work mainly on lower tier characters (people with mediocre recoveries), as opposed to Yoshi who"s Grab-Release game (as well as other techniques) works on a fair number of characters on the upper half. Though I doubt that'll take Yoshi 'too far'. A sad reality considering how much I like the two.

Actually, I think Mario will stay where he is- not fall.

 

[bigman40]

Easy there bigman40.

With your censor asterisks.

And your logic.

We're trading insults here.

Insult someone or go home.

P.S. - Can we talk about Yoshi v. some character that matters or Mario v. some character that matters?

I didn't change anything about my asterisks. I write them out, and the filter does it for me. It's obvious that when I do try to get a real debate going, people don't wanna continue it. Besides, my insults is too awesome for this thread.

 

[Matador]

Lol @ the amount of stupidness. If you think the other character does better, and he's your main, then you should be able to prove it. If you can't prove it, then you have nothing to state.

Yoshi is my main, and I also play Mario. They don't have any difference in killing potential. If you wanna state your opinion on it, then back the ****ing **** up people. If you can't, stay the **** out of the debate.

I challenge you to tell me whether Mario's Fsmash potential equates to the potential of Yoshi's Uair.

Remember to consider Mario's stutterstep, Yoshi's Uair being an aerial killer, and the difficulty of landing each attack on every character specifically and in regards to each other.

Once you're done, I want you to figure out exactly HOW MUCH Mario's gimp game weighs in comparison to Yoshi's guaranteed (or close to it) KO setups and the difficulty of landing each.

THEN, I want you to take it a step further and tell me what the ratio for Mario vs Yoshi is. Not the posted bull on our matchup charts, but the ACTUAL ratio. Who has it hardest and why. Why Yoshi's recovery is more important in this matchup than, say, Mario's ability to attack OOS. Remember that it must be completely accurate; none of it best-guess.

You see, that's the problem with theory. That's WHY it doesn't matter if I main him or not. If we decide that Yoshi's KO power > Mario's, we'd be reaching the conclusion arbitrarily, based on random value over things like recoveries and edgeguarding to decide for us. Of course it'd be ******** to put all the time into calculating and coming up with values to measure each vague aspect of each attack belonging to each character, but that's why it's pointless isn't it?

That's why we look at the tier list and decide to ourselves where everyone should be when the only PROVABLE thing to do is look at tourney results to measure superiority. Except...what if Xyro, Tudor and Rohins haven't been able to go to tourneys for awhile? What if Anther gets the flu? What if Azen takes a break and Lucario's results fall (oh...wait)? Then is it still so accurate? Does it MATTER whether or not I main that character? Theory is stupid, yet it's all we can debate. Why do you think it all goes out the window when Reflex decides on a whim that he wants to play PT? Because it's pointless.

You see, that's why you should just take my word for it. If I'm right, nobody's wrong for agreeing with me.

 

[Napoleon]

I had the impression that Marth had a close matchup with Metaknight.
Seems not.

I believed that Marth had a bit too much fluent unpredictability.
e.g. SH Fair x 2 Followed by a retreating Roll, instead of the expected Marth F-Smash.

Although Wario higher up than Marth? Maybe I'm not playing the right people.

 

[bigman40]

Alright, fine then. I won't argue about this. However, when you say that you think Mario can kill better than Yoshi, you should have something to back that up. You've just picked a side that better than the other, so you should be able to have enough evidence to show why it's true.

Gimping isn't what I was even including into this debate because neither of them excel at is as much. Of course, Yoshi has to work harder to successfully gimp, but Mario doesn't have much of a walk in the park either. I was mainly getting into the outright ease both characters have when it comes to netting a kill on your opponent (universally). If you have trouble netting kills (which both characters have trouble doing at high levels of play), and that you (Mario) have a fair amount of kill moves that aren't that much different from the other one (Yoshi), then you aren't that different from each other. If both characters net kills at around the same percents, and both have about the same trouble netting them, then you aren't that different from each other.

Now to get about your challenge, **** is never gonna be completely 100% accurate. The very obvious **** will be, but close **** like the discussion at hand won't be. Someone will always have a point in thinking that this character can do better than the other (and when you main that very character, you should most likely be able to back up what you can say about your character), but the point is that if you have this reasoning, then it's expected that you should have some points to prove it.

If you want to take the tourney results as the superior measurement, then Yoshi and Lucas should be higher than what Ness and Lucas are now. Yet that doesn't happen because of what reasons? That kind of answer we won't know cause we can't see what the SBR think about them. If it's about the current metagame, then they should be making the list more accurate to what the tourney results are giving out.

If these top players can't make it to tourneys then it's their fault. The tierlist doesn't care about that, and the people that main that same characters should be able to compensate. If they can't compensate for the top player, then tough luck.

We both agree that they are the same in killing potential. Yet, you have you "think" that Mario can do better by a bare edge. Bare edges aren't gonna matter enough at high levels of play cause it's still pretty much considered even.

 

[Matador]

Alright, fine then. I won't argue about this. However, when you say that you think Mario can kill better than Yoshi, you should have something to back that up. You've just picked a side that better than the other, so you should be able to have enough evidence to show why it's true.

You're right, you win. They're even. What an eye-opener.

 

[brinboy789]

I had the impression that Marth had a close matchup with Metaknight.
Seems not.

I believed that Marth had a bit too much fluent unpredictability.
e.g. SH Fair x 2 Followed by a retreating Roll, instead of the expected Marth F-Smash.

Although Wario higher up than Marth? Maybe I'm not playing the right people.

What would a retreating roll do? It would be better if your trying to mindgame your opponent to run up and do a pivot grab...or dancing blade. A retreating roll doesnt do anything

also, tiers shouldn't matter who you choose as your main

 

[BSP]

I had the impression that Marth had a close matchup with Metaknight.
Seems not.

I believed that Marth had a bit too much fluent unpredictability.
e.g. SH Fair x 2 Followed by a retreating Roll, instead of the expected Marth F-Smash.

Although Wario higher up than Marth? Maybe I'm not playing the right people.

There is no "right" person to play with unless you're playing to win. If you're playing to win, I would pick up sommeone in the S tier. The list shouldn't influence who u play though. and brinboys right. Don't think a roll would do much.

 

[phi1ny3]

When it comes down to it Supermodel;

B tier is a pretty safe tier, hell it's the characters in S and A tier that funnily enough have the 'hard' counters (Falco... Ice Climbers, Game and Watch, I guess Marth, etc etc).

A character is safe because they have a sword.

A FAST sword.

And Lucario's aura is swords, don't argue with me here. :D

They have great qualities, great speed, little weaknesses, answers/options to/for most situations.

ZSS's long range capabilities are slower attacks -> she has a weakness.

Even though ZSS may be able to overcome this with ease, look how long it's taken for her to 'pick up' in terms of being considered a good character!

Fast longish range swords = safe = forever considered a pretty good character = Immediete use with positive results.

What have we learned kids?
You must eat Swords!