The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[-Mars-]

and PT trainer is?

now look at you trying to be smart

More so than Luigi for the already stated reasons.........would you like to actually give any reasons as to why Luigi is better than PT?

lmao.

 

[Suspect]

Im more interested in why you think PT is better than Luigi since that is what originally was said.

you can keep laughing your *** off but look at the tier list and look at tourny results, then look at the character in general

i should be the one "lmao"

 

[kirbywizard]

More so than Luigi for the already stated reasons.........would you like to actually give any reasons as to why Luigi is better than PT?

lmao.

He has an jab> up B combo moree then half the cast can't escape. He can also easily juggle the majority of the cast with other rather nifty combos. He may have trouble against sword/ projectile users but his close combat game really makes up for it. Sadly it's still not enough to get past characters like GW, Marth, and Metaknight. Also the D3 match up isn't so bad, but that grab is just to much ****.

 

[Suspect]

all he did was name luigis bad matchups right off the top, other than that luigi does decent or beats the rest of the cast. And yes having a projectile does help cause it means he can play this game it was meant to be played...camping. Luigi also has WAY better kill moves than PT and easier ways to rack up damage.

 

[-Mars-]

Doesn't matter. Anyone with any clue of how to play DDD can instantly counterpick Luigi and **** him up the a**................HARD.

If he was hard-countered by non-popular characters it would be one thing......but to have THAT many hard counters at the top of the metagame makes him unviable.....simple as that.

Like really......Luigi has NO shot against MK.....let alone DDD.

Edit: lol @ you thinking Luigi can camp with his pathetic projectile.

 

[kirbywizard]

all he did was name luigis bad matchups right off the top, other than that luigi does decent or beats the rest of the cast. And yes having a projectile does help cause it means he can play this game it was meant to be played...camping. Luigi also has WAY better kill moves than PT and easier ways to rack up damage.

Luigi is a force to weary of



I really don't see anything wrong with PT placing, it could be a little higher, but he won't get up by much.


Also PT has way more bad match ups then Luigi does.

 

[Suspect]

@mar-In that whole post not once did you prove PT better than Luigi

you did prove you know nothing about Luigi tho. Boss had beaten mks before and im sure D3's also, not impossible.

I have beaten mks and D3's before with Luigi.

Im sure plenty of others have also.

But back to the original question. How is PT better than Luigi

 

[kirbywizard]

In that whole post not once did you prove PT better than Luigi

you did prove you know nothing about Luigi tho. Boss had beaten mks before and im sure D3's also, not impossible.

I have beaten mks and D3's before with Luigi.

Im sure plenty of others have also.

But back to the original question. How is PT better than Luigi

Shouldn't you guys be arguing why bowser, or zelda might go down because of Pokemon trainer?

What's the point in trying to make people think PT better then Luigi. Which we all know isn't

 

[Suspect]

Shouldn't you guys be arguing why bowser, or zelda might go down because of Pokemon trainer?

What's the point in trying to make people think PT better then Luigi. Which we all know isn't

we are arguing about this because of what was posted on the page before this.

but i agree, i dont know why we are arguing about this when it should be obvious.

Idk much about bowser but zelda should go down yes.

 

[choknater]

yeah zelda's pretty bad lol

use transform!!!

 

[kirbywizard]

I think Luigi just about found the right place on the tier list, might be one spot higher or lower but it's just about right.

 

[choknater]

haha the tier list is still pretty good even with today's metagame, except that ic's shoudl be a million spots higher

 

[-Mars-]

*sigh*

Luigi has bad matchups. His insane kill power is a plus, but when he is up against a character with a great zoning game it GREATLY diminishes his ability to KO and all of a sudden he just seems average.

Charizard and Squirtle are better than Luigi. Zard has one of the better grab ranges in the game, is heavy, has a decent recovery, and possesses ranged moves like flamethrower and rock smash. He also has good KO options.

Squirtle is insanely quick and has an extremely fast moveset, can string together moves well, has KO power, and has great horizontal aerial movement. The only bad thing about Squirtle is his recovery and his light weight.

Ivy is just bad.

I think Luigi is fine where he is on the tier list right now.......PT is just better to me.

 

[Yonder]

PT better than Luigi?

i lol'd

Same . And Peach. I lold there too.

 

[Spelt]

lucas is great. Discuss.

i'd just like you to know ... ilu.
that is all.

 

[DMG]

PT is better than Luigi.

 

[LuigiKing]

Wow Marsulas you really don't know anything about luigi do you? His range problem isn't even a problem with the way the metagame is going right now, so that statement is just absurd. MK and Marth **** luigi, but who doesn't MK ****? And Marth has an advantage on most of the cast anyway. IC's don't **** weegee, I don't even know where you would get that information. =/

Plus luigi does well against Wario, diddy, and Olimar, all problem matchups for a lot of characters...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I beat Snakeee, Inui, Dark Peach, and Judge in brackets. Are they good enough to say that I'm not just placing in scrub tournaments? Or am I just broke-tier level, and PT's still a terrible character?

As I said at SNES, it proves you're pretty **** broken.

Spoiler

Ban reflex.

No, it means Ally>M2K. FOW is better than many people who play higher tier characters, does that mean Ness should be high tier?

M2K needs to step up his game honestly, I think he's letting ally (and mango) get into his head, he just wasn't playing well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wow, you guys are dumb. PT is OBVIOUSLY better than Luigi. Luigi has match-ups he SHOULDN'T win at all (I'm not counting MK because I don't think Luigi should never beat him) like ICs or D3. G&W, Marth and MK are all winnable for Luigi imo but he'll NEVER beat a D3 or ICs ... PT on the other hand can win all match-ups by himself. He might have a whole bunch of uphill battles but as long as he's in the hand of a skillful player he can realistically win those match-ups. Luigi has 2 hopeless match-ups and is still disadvantaged against the entire top tier except Diddy Kong.

 

[LuigiKing]

Soo... jab -> UpB is a true combo on Game and Watch, which makes the matchup waaaay easier than you would think. Its generally in GW favor but you can simply do one 40% combo, then RUN AWAY until he makes a mistake and buckets a fireball and you have a free kill. Its also ******** easy to kill Nana as Luigi, especially on non-flat stages.

Why all the weegee hate? Boss and to some extent biglou have proven that he is a good character already.

 

[Browny]

His range problem isn't even a problem with the way the metagame is going right now

Please, divulge. Its not that I doubt Luigi is viable or anything, but his range was a problem on january 31 2008, and will be a problem forever >_>

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Wow, you guys are dumb. PT is OBVIOUSLY better than Luigi. Luigi has match-ups he SHOULDN'T win at all (I'm not counting MK because I don't think Luigi should never beat him) like ICs or D3. G&W, Marth and MK are all winnable for Luigi imo but he'll NEVER beat a D3 or ICs ... PT on the other hand can win all match-ups by himself. He might have a whole bunch of uphill battles but as long as he's in the hand of a skillful player he can realistically win those match-ups. Luigi has 2 hopeless match-ups and is still disadvantaged against the entire top tier except Diddy Kong.

ANY character can overcome 'impossible' matchups in the hands of a good player. Duhhhh

I can't believe people are actually claiming PT > Luigi.. Have you seen his Utilt?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think PT and Sheik should both be at the bottom of B tier. In fact I think if it wasn't for Ivy's recovery being the worst in the game......PT would already be in B tier.

I think Sheik has just as much capabilities as a character like say ZSS for example.

If he was to be in B tier then Peach would have to rise up a few points up. Peach is NOT C tier at all. This is straight truth and facts to prove this. And people keep going on about PT cause of squirtle. Remember there are three different ones to play will which change ratios of a match up. And a new play style.

Ooo, I'm gonna have to say bottom or middle of C-Tier actually... He's probably better than Peach, Luigi, and Fox, but I think there's a bit more of a gap between him and the likes of Lucario/DK/Pit.

PT is NOT better than Peach. Just how you come to this?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ANY character can overcome 'impossible' matchups in the hands of a good player. Duhhhh

No. A DK won't beat a D3 if you're realistic. Ganondorf will never beat a Sheik if you're realistic.

Luigi will never beat the ICs or D3 if you're realistic. Exceptions can obviously occur but ICs/D3 should NOT lose to a Luigi.

PT - even if you're "realistic" - can win every match-up. He never "needs" a second character to help him.

PT > Luigi (and PT > Peach lawl...Peach blows)

 

[-Mars-]

Wow Marsulas you really don't know anything about luigi do you? His range problem isn't even a problem with the way the metagame is going right now, so that statement is just absurd. MK and Marth **** luigi, but who doesn't MK ****? And Marth has an advantage on most of the cast anyway. IC's don't **** weegee, I don't even know where you would get that information. =/

Plus luigi does well against Wario, diddy, and Olimar, all problem matchups for a lot of characters...

MK doesn't "****" a lot of characters. Ice Climbers are terrible for Luigi, I can't believe that i'm more knowledgeable about your characters matchups than you are.

Also.....get Idaho to come down to the Arizona tourny on the 19th so you and Swastika can see i'm only a douche on the internet

Wow, you guys are dumb. PT is OBVIOUSLY better than Luigi. Luigi has match-ups he SHOULDN'T win at all (I'm not counting MK because I don't think Luigi should never beat him) like ICs or D3. G&W, Marth and MK are all winnable for Luigi imo but he'll NEVER beat a D3 or ICs ... PT on the other hand can win all match-ups by himself. He might have a whole bunch of uphill battles but as long as he's in the hand of a skillful player he can realistically win those match-ups. Luigi has 2 hopeless match-ups and is still disadvantaged against the entire top tier except Diddy Kong.

Gheb we agree on something? Take a picture this will probably be one of the last few times. I agree Icies and DDD are nearly impossible for Luigi and then he has several VERY hard matchups. The fact that all of these matchups are in top or high tier makes it even worse.

Soo... jab -> UpB is a true combo on Game and Watch, which makes the matchup waaaay easier than you would think. Its generally in GW favor but you can simply do one 40% combo, then RUN AWAY until he makes a mistake and buckets a fireball and you have a free kill. Its also ******** easy to kill Nana as Luigi, especially on non-flat stages.

Why all the weegee hate? Boss and to some extent biglou have proven that he is a good character already.

I'm not hating on Weegee.....i've always thought that Luigi was a good character who just gets screwed over by REALLY bad matchups and PT is better than him......that's it.

ANY character can overcome 'impossible' matchups in the hands of a good player. Duhhhh

I can't believe people are actually claiming PT > Luigi.. Have you seen his Utilt?

I'm going to treat this post as either being sarcastic or a really bad joke......

If he was to be in B tier then Peach would have to rise up a few points up. Peach is NOT C tier at all. This is straight truth and facts to prove this. And people keep going on about PT cause of squirtle. Remember there are three different ones to play will which change ratios of a match up. And a new play style.




PT is NOT better than Peach. Just how you come to this?

I agree that Peach is better than Pit.........I don't know about being better than PT though, I would be happy with both Peach and PT moving up as we continue to move DK and Pit down.

 

[Dark.Pch]

i (and PT > Peach lawl...Peach blows)

ECRC #4: Gameunicon: S.N.E.S
Dark.Pch - Peach = 13th out of 200+

Yea, Peach freaking sucks so hard at this game. Could have fooled me.

 

[Browny]

it was 141 lol

 

[LuigiKing]

Who the hell decided Luigi gets hard countered by ICs in the first place?

Please post results, vids of top players, or something. I'm curious what you guys come up with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Luigi is a force to weary of



I really don't see anything wrong with PT placing, it could be a little higher, but he won't get up by much.


Also PT has way more bad match ups then Luigi does.

PT has bad matchups?

That's, like, 60-40 Meta Knight (I'll even give you 65-35)/Snake/Dedede/Falco/Marth/Diddy. He is disadvantaged, but they're not terribly uphill. They're all doable if you know what you're doing. Overall, his matchups are fairly even.

 

[SoulSilver7]

Sonic should be above Donkey Kong man. DK is a HUUUGE victim of Spin Charge combos. And his size is bad against Sonic too. Oh well. Sonic got the highest boost in Smash Bros. History!!! Woohoo for the blue blur!

 

[Red Arremer]

His range problem isn't even a problem with the way the metagame is going right now, so that statement is just absurd.

lol.

MK and Marth **** luigi, but who doesn't MK ****?

With "****" being a match-up of 65:35 or higher: Only a small fraction of the cast, with the majority of them being Low Tiers.

Plus luigi does well against Wario, diddy, and Olimar, all problem matchups for a lot of characters...

That makes him a good counterpick/secondary, but not a good character overall. Bowser does pretty well against Meta Knight, Snake, Wario and Falco, too (almost 60:40 to 55:45 opponent's advantage on all of these characters). All problem matchups for a lot of characters. Does that make him a better character? No.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Who the hell decided Luigi gets hard countered by ICs in the first place?

Please post results, vids of top players, or something. I'm curious what you guys come up with.

Poll results aren't relevant here, it's his attributes that kill him. Luigi has range issues against a character that's grab functions to make that spacing (close range, aka Luigi's good spacing) completely non-viable.

This just shuts him down, combine that with desynched blizzards at relatively close range, and ice blocks at farther and you're dealing with him being completely outcamped. If he approaches, he gets grabbed. If he doesn't fully approach, he gets beaten by the range and priority of the hammers.

Bad match-up.

 

[DMG]

Luigi's bad matchups (watch this):


Dedede
IC's
Marth
MK
G&W
Snake
Pit
TL
Wolf
Zelda

^^^ Those matchups are at least 6/4 in the other character's favor.

 

[Mr.-0]

Isn't the tier list a represantation of the highest possible potential that a character has? And if all plays snake and is considered the best in the world, wouldn't that mean at the higest level of competition, where all characters potentials are fully brought out, than wouldn't the main of the best player be the best character?

 

[Suspect]

zelda, wolf, pit, toon link, and snake (last i saw was even) are not true imo

especially zelda all her matchups are lies!

 

[adumbrodeus]

zelda, wolf, pit, toon link, and snake (last i saw was even) are not true imo

LOL, especially Snake.


All of those characters give him pretty much the same problem, he can't really get in their personal space well, and they beat him outside it handily.

especially zelda all her matchups are lies!

You don't outcamp Zelda, Zelda is a great defensive character, but she dies in offensive. If you don't outcamp Zelda, it's probably a bad match-up.


edit:

Isn't the tier list a represantation of the highest possible potential that a character has? And if all plays snake and is considered the best in the world, wouldn't that mean at the higest level of competition, where all characters potentials are fully brought out, than wouldn't the main of the best player be the best character?

No.


The tier list is fundamentally a theoretical list of character power at the top of the metagame (a theoretical limit, which is the best use humanly possible).


The best player is irrelevant, if ADHD consistently beats Ally and M2K, Diddy will not become the top character (if he ever does, it will because of metagame advancement).

 

[adumbrodeus]

double post...

 

[Mr. Johan]

Sonic should be above Donkey Kong man. DK is a HUUUGE victim of Spin Charge combos. And his size is bad against Sonic too.

Good luck killing the big guy, with as low KO power as Sonic has. DK also has pretty fast tilts and smashes that can stop Sonic instantly. Headbutt's also an option if the Sonic rushes foolishly at him, leading to a free smash.

Sonic can win the match, yes, but DK has enough to prevent it.

And just because a character may have an advantage over another doesn't mean he should higher than him on the tier list.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

That's, like, 60-40 Meta Knight (I'll even give you 65-35)/Snake/Dedede/Falco/Marth/Diddy. He is disadvantaged, but they're not terribly uphill. They're all doable if you know what you're doing. Overall, his matchups are fairly even.

And I bet undoable if they other person knows how to make those matches 65 against you.

 

[Lord Viper]

Luigi's bad matchups (watch this):


Dedede
IC's
Marth
MK
G&W
Snake
Pit
TL
Wolf
Zelda

^^^ Those matchups are at least 6/4 in the other character's favor.

☆ I have doubts on Ice Climbers being that much of a disadvantage for Luigi, but still a disadvantage. I can't find Zelda or Wolf a Luigi disadvantage at all. The rest I'll agree, I think Mr. Game & Watch is a little worst. )= ☆