The *Official* Pittsburgh Melee Weeklies Thread of the LoL WoW Love

[dead-aim]

i watches some samus vs. marth and it didnt even really look like a new game. It just looked like 2 newbs playing melee. I think instead of making a new game they just made brawl really linear. Of course i am going to play it though.

When brawl comes out do you guys think melee is going to die? I think a new generation of smashers will just replace the old ones ( azen, ken....) and the game will be played forever.

 

[SwiftBass]

i watches some samus vs. marth and it didnt even really look like a new game. It just looked like 2 newbs playing melee. I think instead of making a new game they just made brawl really linear. Of course i am going to play it though.

When brawl comes out do you guys think melee is going to die? I think a new generation of smashers will just replace the old ones ( azen, ken....) and the game will be played forever.

**** u mustve not been on boards for a while evan, azen already is like beasting it down in md/va. the old ones that are smart will still be around (if they want) and will still be good. Its not tech and speed that makes them good its being smart and knowing how to play smash(in general) yeah there may be new guys, but the seasoned vets in melee and even 64 will def shine. Don't expect a ton of guys out of nowhere to **** and be like azen or somethin. (there will be some tho like how mango did melee)

 

[dead-aim]

t is azen dominating brawl or melee?

 

[CT Chia]

this is quite a good debate going on lol. its quite refreshing to see a new angle on the brawl vs melee debate.

however swift, that list of games you talked about where the its not broke dont fix it works, really doesn't lol as pocky started to point out. the only one that somewhat works is madden, which is because its about football. thats the only reason. football appeals to much wider audience than smash, and its practically the only football video game thanks to the nfl license agreement with EA. if ppl dont like smash, they have plenty of other places to go.

however even madden isnt without its flaws as its been getting lower and lower review scores as every year goes by because they refuse to add that much new content, however it does show when they make an effort. the rest of the games though...

*street figther 3 series( secondimpact/third stike) - overall downhill (to all consumers) since the extreme success of SF2
*tekken series - keeping pace but not really advancing anywhere
*virtual fighter - same as above
*soul calibur - downhill since soul calibur 2, and even more with 4
*devil may cry series - 2 was a bad point to the series, 3 helped revive it, 4 is bringing it back down a bit. it's not necessarily a downhill overall, but it's not going anywhere unless they really surprise ppl with dmc5
*the capcom vs series(marvel, xmen vs street fighter) - not goin anywhere, possibly downhill due to the lack of games coming out recently
*Guilty Gear - stays steady with the competitive scene, but fails to really reach a mass market appeal.

if they kept the engine similar to melee but have all the new brawl content, it would sell just as well. HOWEVER, thats impossible. you simply cant do all the new brawl stuff effectively on the melee engine. this is because of the new havock physics engine they used which is essentially why the game feels different overall. without the new physics engine we wouldn't have the momentum changing moves like sonic or toon links dair, GAW's uair pushing ppl up, or stage elements like flying stage on pokemon stadium 2 or other stuff in the game. this COULD all be done in melee to an extent with hard coding, but without a proper physics engine in place it really cant be done effectively. they also had to fix elements like wave dashing, which as pocky said, doesn't really make sense to begin with.

 

[Maraphy]

So, will the weeklies still be running even with the release of Brawl? It would be neat if it still ran, and slowly tweened into Brawl, with the help of donations and such. I would come this Friday but I don't have a ride.

 

[SwiftBass]

i actually have a very hard time believing that any of those (except for madden) were successes among casual gamers on anywhere near the same scale as smash

what I do remember is (from the last time i played 2d fighters regularly lol... I'M OLD)

SF2 - everyone had it
Super SF2 - fewer people had it
Super SF2 turbo - slightly more than super sf2 but still nowhere near the original sf2 (60 bucks is a loooot to blow when you don't have any income)

Mortal Kombat - everyone had it
MK2 - actually a lot of people had this too - I liked it a lot
MK3 - not very many people had it
MK4 - how many people even know this existed

Edit:
my point is that it seems that you're looking at this from the POV of a gamer - I'd actually guess that the majority of "casual smashers" you know are actually gamers too that just happened not to choose smash as a primary game, but you probably forget about the MANY other demographics that ssbm touches because you don't come into contact with them in any regularity

Im not exactly sure @ what ur getting @ in the last paragraph would you break it down for me?

these games have made millions so why would the companies care if they were successes among the casual gamer? All im saying is that releasing the "same exact game" is not a bad thing. A perfect and further proving example would be the release of devil may cry 2. Fact, that game was horrible and the sales dropped drastically because of it(any person who played it will tell u this garanteed). BUT Then a few years later devil may cry 3 and 4 come out and are hits again(making above average sales). They've been using the same engine from the start and only have made tweaks and look where they are now

I wont say that tekken and GG are on a smash scale(def not in the US), but they are definitive proof that you do not have to appeal to the casual crowd to make lots of money. I mean you can argue how smash makes more money all day, but when it comes down to it, these games are very successful and are money makers regardless, hence their longevity.

t is azen dominating brawl or melee?

Both

 

[SwiftBass]

*street figther 3 series( secondimpact/third stike) - overall downhill (to all consumers) since the extreme success of SF2
*tekken series - keeping pace but not really advancing anywhere
*virtual fighter - same as above
*soul calibur - downhill since soul calibur 2, and even more with 4
*devil may cry series - 2 was a bad point to the series, 3 helped revive it, 4 is bringing it back down a bit. it's not necessarily a downhill overall, but it's not going anywhere unless they really surprise ppl with dmc5
*the capcom vs series(marvel, xmen vs street fighter) - not goin anywhere, possibly downhill due to the lack of games coming out recently
*Guilty Gear - stays steady with the competitive scene, but fails to really reach a mass market appeal.
.

what do u mean by downhill(sales?/ competitive nature?)

mvc2 sold WAY more than all of the other vs games

how is sf3 an overall downhill thing. I can confidently say that its much more popular than 2nd impact. if it wasnt as popular then why was it released for xbox in an anniversary pack. They could easily chosen another SF3

devil may cry once again is great proof.

GG is so well established in its market that it doesnt need casual appeal.

*soul calibur - downhill since soul calibur 2, and even more with 4

.

1 & 2 were 1337 but where im from , we dont speak of that monstrosity of a fighting game series....... however I'll bet all the money in my pocket that 4 will sell more than 3 which would further prove my point.

 

[pockyD]

Im not exactly sure @ what ur getting @ in the last paragraph would you break it down for me?

these games have made millions so why would the companies care if they were successes among the casual gamer? All im saying is that releasing the "same exact game" is not a bad thing.

Why make millions when you can make ... billions?

point is companies aren't looking to make "enough" profit - they're looking for MAXIMUM profit, and the casual gamer FAR outweighs the serious gamer (who will buy the game regardless btw ... you WILL buy brawl, despite what you say )

edit:

the point of my last paragraph is that those games you mentioned aren't actually commercial successes... i can't really name any people that own any of those fighter games that don't actually (or haven't in the past) played them on a serious level, much less any non-serious gamer that owns multiple generations of them

 

[SwiftBass]

well i guess this boils down to success on a commerical lvl and success on other lvls(commerical being the largest and most popular.

I mean streetfighter is still a household name and I doubt capcom would have trouble making the "billions" and getting to that commerical status it once had(back in the day where a billion dollars was un-heard of lol). But they choose not to, because there is apparent success in the formula they've been using for the past years(after they werent so commerically popular). The success is there but in a diff form. I know companies go for maximun profit(ima econ major son so i know that ****), but this probly traces back to the developers as well who can probly give you a diff definition of success.

all and all success is in the eyes of the beholder and whether its millions or billions, itjust doesnt matter as much to some.(especially the game developers, as opposed to companies as a whole) if it did, then some of these franchises wouldve done somethinga bout it. (GG, streetfight come to mind)

I WILL buy brawl, however the techincal intricacies that revolutionized smash as a whole will always influence my favoritism of melee/64, unless something in the game engine thats remarkable is discovered and introduces revolutionary ideas

EDIT: YAY SPRING BREAK SON IM

Spoiler

HA YOU THOUGHT ID SAY FAWKEN DIDNT YOU

DONE!!!!!!!!! FOR A WEEK @ LEAST. down with the sheep

 

[Mogwai]

OK, since the discussion is going this way, I'm bringing up a new point. Mario Kart. This series is appealing to the same demographic that Pocky is talking about for casual smashers. Every new one has another gimmick or two, but the core of the game remains unchanged, yet I will guarantee that Mario Kart games will continue to sell with the same sort of numbers to the casual gamer because all they really want is a breath of fresh air in the stagnant old game that they love. I've never debated the point of wave-dashing. I'm sad to see it go, but everyone views it as an accident that doesn't make terribly much sense, so whatever, I'm OK with it getting the ax. But the rest of the game could have stayed very similar to melee and then could've just spiced it up with pretty new graphics and stages and characters and smash balls and single player mode and items and everyone would have still loved it. There was no need to speed the game down and get rid of everything necessary for combos and take away all movement tricks and make edge guarding impossible. I just don't see how that makes it more marketable and it just diminishes sales late in the game's life by people not wanted to replace lost/broken copies or buy extra copies for tournaments or any of the other selling points of a tournament caliber fighting game.

 

[pockyD]

i'm pretty certain that to the unseasoned player, brawl is closer to melee than double dash is to kart64

 

[SwiftBass]

OK, since the discussion is going this way, I'm bringing up a new point. Mario Kart. This series is appealing to the same demographic that Pocky is talking about for casual smashers. Every new one has another gimmick or two, but the core of the game remains unchanged, yet I will guarantee that Mario Kart games will continue to sell with the same sort of numbers to the casual gamer because all they really want is a breath of fresh air in the stagnant old game that they love. I've never debated the point of wave-dashing. I'm sad to see it go, but everyone views it as an accident that doesn't make terribly much sense, so whatever, I'm OK with it getting the ax. But the rest of the game could have stayed very similar to melee and then could've just spiced it up with pretty new graphics and stages and characters and smash balls and single player mode and items and everyone would have still loved it.

I dont see how WDing doesnt make sense to some. its just physics with weight and traction variables(thx astronomy class). If anything airdodge shoudve been taken out because now factors such as the length of distance the shine sends on the ground or the distance u slide after regular shielding/light shield(oh thats right light shield is gone >_>)is simplified and not so unique. yeah it doesnt sound as important and i guess im nitpicking but like i said i have some of the greatest appreciation for the game engine.

anyways.......QFT

i'm pretty certain that to the unseasoned player, brawl is closer to melee than double dash is to kart64

ooh thats a hard call, might I add that MKDS was even more simular to MK64 even tho i dunno if that helps or not.

 

[pockyD]

physics?

try sliding into the ground on your stomach and let's see how far you slide (not to mention being instantly standing and ready to perform an action AS you slide)

wavedashing/landing doesn't make sense -_-

edit: please don't misconstrue my argument - i probably WD more than all of pittsburgh combined... i'm just saying that if airdodge->ground had just suspended you to begin with (or even put you in fall-down mode), no one would've thought that out of place at all and been thinking "****, what if i SLID when i dodged into the ground and could slide around wrecking people?"

 

[SwiftBass]

physics?

try sliding into the ground on your stomach and let's see how far you slide (not to mention being instantly standing and ready to perform an action AS you slide)

wavedashing/landing doesn't make sense -_-

Instead of getting a rug burn how bout I take 2 identical boxes and put lead in one and titanium in the other. Then make some Myth Busters machine(that show is 1337 don't care what no one say) that throws them from a constant height and angle toward the ground with a constant throwing velocity(who does that). Then it makes perfect sense.

edit: please don't misconstrue my argument - i probably WD more than all of pittsburgh combined...

Of course im just arguing physics

 

[pockyD]

haha the velocity thing made me lol and i got some funny looks from coworkers

secondofly, i don't get your point - are you saying characters with the metal box should be allowed to wavedash/land?

 

[CT Chia]

edit: i made this post without seeing the 3 latest ones above this

good point mogwai, its sort of the point i was alluding to but u said it perfect especially with that analogy. to help make smash appeal more to the casual audience they didnt need the whole new engine and make it less technical.

i think they changed the engine to open up new possibilities as i mentioned in my post with the new aspects of momentum playing a big role. its quite hard though to make a game perfectly appeal to everyone, so perhaps this is why the gravity mode change was added, as people have shown its possible to pull off a lot of the old combos with it on. im not really for gravity changing in the cmopetitive scene, but i guess im not exactly against it so to say. who knows.

its a shame to see a lot of the combos gone, but i have a feeling that the new engine taking out combos doesnt relate to the casual/competitive debate which most ppl automatically link it to. nintendo could have eaisly marketed a melee 2.0 to the causal audience with more items, better graphix, more characters, stages, and so on.

also in my last post when i said downhill, i more meant like in sales sort of. kinda tough to describe. like SF3 was great, but a new SF game hasn't come out in a long time. so naturally over time it has started to deteriorate without new titles to keep it alive. it will completely pick back up tho with SF4. i didnt necessarily mean the quality of the games declined.

 

[SwiftBass]

haha nah the boxes and the metal inside of them represent the weight differences because lead is obviously heavier than titanium. there was no pun intended. the boxes are merely a demonstration of weight variability. For the purpose of my point i could've used 2 identical cartons of milk one filled and one half filled and the point would still be proven that weight affects traction.

so yeah, physics

 

[pockyD]

ok i like that one

have one carton of milk and one carton of orange juice

throw them into the ground and see if they spill

edit: also see if they land nicely right-side up and slide along, or if they tumble

and this is for a nicely shaped carton... are all smash chars wearing bowling shoes and have their feet cover a giant plane perpendicular to their bodies?

 

[CT Chia]

so if metal mario was a playable character (standard character, not with items), with this new physics engine he could wavedash and be top tier? no way!

lol

 

[SwiftBass]

edit: i made this post without seeing the 3 latest ones above this
.

thats because this topic isnt the same bull**** (over and over) and ppl are actally engaged. I wish smashboards were like this @ least 80% of the time but not all the time(watching ppl post stupidly is funny sometimes)

ok i like that one

have one carton of milk and one carton of orange juice

throw them into the ground and see if they spill

edit: also see if they land nicely right-side up and slide along, or if they tumble

and this is for a nicely shaped carton... are all smash chars wearing bowling shoes and have their feet cover a giant plane perpendicular to their bodies?

f**k you kevin too good



now i just got weird looks form the ppl in the computer lab

 

[pockyD]

yes it's fun not arguing with idiots or overzealous people

 

[SwiftBass]

i wish i could play WoW and be on firefox @ the same time >_>

last time i tried, i got bluescreened

 

[pockyD]

don't play wow

i took apart my rubik's cube for the first time yesterday... holy crap whoever invented this was an insane genius

 

[CT Chia]

while wavedashing was by all means a welcoming addition to the game, i dont think it really made sense. i mean sure, if you throw something at the ground with continuing down momentum it will slide or "dash." however were talking about characters here. and while i dont know if something like a pikachu actually acts like that with crazy pokemon physics, i doubt its enjoyable for the lil fellow to be sliding around that being forced into the ground with an air dodge system that already doesnt make sense. but yea most ppl already agree the loss of wave dashing isnt that big.

its really the speed of the game that seems to do it whcih is affected by the new floatiness and lack of l cancelling. in a way the no l cancelling makes sense... some moves in brawl have no lag (auto cancelling) some have some lag, and some have a lot of lag. its different based on the move which helps make the moves more balanced and makes them useful in different instances. instead of worrying that l canceling is out, we should worry more that the game is just overall slower.

technically the reducing of hit stun should make the game faster as it gives the opponent a chance to attack sooner, but it ended up taking out a lot of combos. which is quite unforutnate for a fighting game.

 

[pockyD]

see but those are things that would appeal to me if i were a complete newb playing for fun

the illusion of more character control, reduced "i'm helpless" moments, and the ability to spam moves without having worry about extra button inputs

 

[SwiftBass]

see but those are things that would appeal to me if i were a complete newb playing for fun

then again..

melee's engine is complex but theres ALOT of casual newb players still

yeah the newbscomplain but they still have it and play

 

[pockyD]

well a newb moving up to brawl from melee would definitely think "hey, this is a better game"

and if 90% of the population thinks the new game is better then good for nintendo

 

[SwiftBass]

well a newb moving up to brawl from melee would definitely think "hey, this is a better game"

and if 90% of the population thinks the new game is better then good for nintendo

tru tru

 

[SwiftBass]

this is taki rob, ben whoever u guys have a controller i can borrow? like nowish

 

[pockyD]

you should be ashamed of yourself for not being armed at all times

 

[Renth]

it sure is cold up here.

 

[SwiftBass]

**** thats such bad timing, im going home for spring break all next week starting early tomm. how long are u gonna be here renth?

 

[pockyD]

aw it's 65 degrees here

 

[takieddine]

I wonder what ganon is up to...

 

[xyt]

have a fun spring break pittsburgh : D

 

[spoonyd]

Anyone going tom?

 

[dead-aim]

Who is smashing today? I would love to come but who all is coming????

 

[spoonyd]

I'm currently leaning towards coming if I ever get some sleep.

 

[sweetooth]

sup dudes... whats been goin on lately?

 

[takieddine]

I'm there to give you guys training. Thats all you need.

Also, can one of you CMU peoples come and bring one of the people that have Brawl?