Data The Official Kirby Match-up Thread

[Winston]

No, there's a difference. In winnable matchups you can bait/create openings even against an opponent who is playing correctly because human reaction time isn't good enough to react to everything perfectly, and because the other character has good enough physics/movesets to punished missed predictions.

there are matchups where the faster character never has to put himself in danger (Fox vs bad characters), or where one character's options outclass the other character's options by so much that prediction isn't really required (Marth/Sheik vs bad characters). You can just react to what they do, and between range and crouch canceling you are safe even if you get "baited".

Basically in the true 100-0 matchups, after the character on the 100 side achieves a certain degree of proficiency in the matchup, then it doesn't matter what the other character does; baits and stuff won't work if he is playing correctly. The reason this doesn't apply to Marth vs Fox on FD is because that level isn't humanly achievable for that matchup, but it certainly is for some things like Sheik/Pichu or Fox camping bad characters.

 

[BunBun]

Keep the matchup discussion out of the matchup thread, please.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Oh, bunbun I have a question why is fox 100-0 in fox's favor (I completely agree with you there) While Falco is not as bad. I am not challenging it, I am just curious.

 

[BunBun]

Fox's Shine, ground speed, and recovery make it that much harder.
Falco is much easier to kill, and doesn't auto-**** you off stage like Fox.

Oh and no upsmash.

 

[Tero.]

Fox's Shine, ground speed, and recovery make it that much harder.
Falco is much easier to kill, and doesn't auto-**** you off stage like Fox.

Oh and no upsmash.

More like no uthrow uair...

 

[BunBun]

That too. Lol Fawks.

 

['V']

Also you can utilize Falco's lasers much better than Fox's. Short hopped double lasers to buffered D-tilt is too good.

The trouble is getting the lasers to begin with.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Attempting to use Fox's lasers at all will just get you kicked in the face, it's a bad idea.

Falco lasers are silly, there should exist no character who can SHDL with falco lasers ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Attempting to do a remarkably large amount of things vs Fox will get you kicked in the face.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I am just curious as to why you think Pichu has a disadvantage vs Kirby, even if Kirby > Pichu, I would not think that Pichu has an advantage vs Kirby in just that match up. I could be wrong though, but I would like to know why.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Idea is that Kirby can d-throw tech chase in a homosexual manner to like 50 or something (when Pichu can jump out) because of Pichu's lack of an existing tech roll.

Kirby's moves generally beat Pichu's moves.

 

[Winston]

what's kirby's best punish if pichu just misses the tech?

I'm guessing utilt, but does that lead to stuff?

 

['V']

It's probably an even match imo. Kirby can tech chase Pichu, but Pichu can get a good combo on Kirby from a D-throw at relatively early percents. Pichu can also camp Kirby, albeit he damages himself a little in process.

Pichu's U-smash hitbox is crazy.

Edit @ Gustav Wind: If Pichu (or anybody really) misses the tech, Kirby can either U-tilt to try to use either a U-air or B-air (depending on how high of a percent they're at) or he can just jab reset to grab to keep the tech chase going or whatever or jab reset to D-smash at close range (this launches them up) to another aerial.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pichu D-throw doesn't combo Kirby.

Especially at low percents.

Pichu's camping is ****.

Jolt's an alright approach but it's slow and awful for straight up projectile camping.

@ Gustav - his best option (if we're assuming Kirby is pretty good) is to do nothing because a character can only lie down for so long and wakeup attacks can be CCed or blocked and the chain continues from there. Presumably he reacts and hits the rolls or stand with moves (or more grab). Alternatives include U-tilt --> Bair/Uair and escapable jab reset setups.

 

['V']

Pichu D-throw doesn't combo Kirby.

Especially at low percents.

Pichu's camping is ****.

Are you sure it doesn't? I could've sworn I've combo'd a Kirby out of D-throw before. Maybe it was either poor DI or U-throw. I know Pichu's U-throw can combo.

And yeah I know Pichu's camping is bad. But it's still there. Kirby is also a bad character. =D

 

[BunBun]

All Pichu does that is annoying is buffeting rolls after running nairs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Are you sure it doesn't? I could've sworn I've combo'd a Kirby out of D-throw before. Maybe it was either poor DI or U-throw. I know Pichu's U-throw can combo.

And yeah I know Pichu's camping is bad. But it's still there. Kirby is also a bad character. =D

I've combo'd Nair --> Fair onstage with Sheik. Doesn't mean it's supposed to.

A lot of Kirbies probably don't know that Pichu's still in lag when he's D-throwing and that they can air-dodge the U-smash after they've broken out. The vertical range will catch you if you jump at higher percents (I think? I think you could probably just jump out but jumping is probably when it seems to happen then most. Maybe slow jumping?), but air-dodge will avoid it.

Very little legitimately works out of Pichu's d-throw. It's a bad move.

Pichu's camping is bad because it's slow and if Kirby times F/D-tilts then it doesn't work as a conventional camping tactic (forcing approach) because Pichu takes more damage than Kirby to do it. It's alright as an approach because he can follow it decently after use, but it's a terrible way to camp.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Just as a note, Pichu's Tech is so bad that you realistically have enough time to jab in case they dont tech and STILL follow up if they do. You will need to jab cancel though.

 

[Silent Wolf]

was browsing and saw that brinstar wasnt on the cp stages for falco, which means its probably not on there for others characters. i think its kirbys best stage vs most if not all characters. rainbow cruise ***** too.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It is, though RC definitely is not. There's definitely a few characters who take to RC worse than Kirby but at the end of the day it's a level that legitimately promotes a runaway style and thats not something Kirby is good with.

 

[BunBun]

I do love uthrow double suicide.


Also, Brinstar is pretty awesome. We need to fix all those stages lol

 

[Pink Reaper]

especially since a few just plain arent legal any more roflmow

 

[BunBun]

Ajp: what software did you use to record?

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Why is brinstar Kirby friendly? I think the acid would practically end him if for some reason he falls into it. While it could save the person he is trying to kill.

 

[ajp_anton]

Videos from yesterday will finish tomorrow, but I don't think there was much Kirby, or if there was, not against good players. Armada didn't want to play Kirby.

BunBun: VirtualDub

edit:
http://ajpanton.se/ssbm/Stockholm/101001-DL/
even less Kirby than I thought, like 4 matches.

 

[Nizro]

I played Hack late at like 5am or something against his Pikachu and got ***** I think?
I won some matches earlier though, his Pikachu is so passive so I felt lost sometimes haha..

Anywho.. Pichu vs Kirby is in Kirby's favour just dthrow techcase till 30-40%ish then just wavedash after and utilt to uair so he's off stage then just bair ****.
If he miss his tech just jab reset to fsmash or w/e

Played more friendlies against Aniolas Sheik and his comment on the MU was "It's pretty even"
He won one match out of 10(I 2stocked him most matches) and the time he won he only had one stock left.. so, so far I think the Sheik MU is kinda easy..

Pointers against Sheik..
If they bair space(with full or short, doesn't matter) you can short or full jump in with inhale and win over the bair, I did this mutliple times when I knew he was going bair frighten me..
And once you got the needles you'll be able to camp back somewhat him and combo with more ease.

Recover high and smart or if they aren't rightly position'd you can downB sweetspot the ledge, and if you recover low, sweetspot your upB or upB so you can *just* barely land on the stage incase they wd to the edge..(if they dtilt you when you do this option you gotta SDI to the ledge and tech, nothing hard.) if they dtilt you/fair when you sweetspot tech into insta upB so you hit them twice(which they usually miss the tech) and just up from the ledge with bair/uair/fair(or if you feel cocky, you can waveland up and Fsmash when they roll away from the ledge, that's awesome too)..

When they recover, roll or go up from the ledge to cover the "imma grab the ledge mf" option and then weak utilt him to uair offstage and repeat, they die really early from the uair, seriously it's like a knee...

Techchase is possible and it ain't hard.

PAL was used.

--
Well in Sweden we got something called a Kirby Challenge.. you gotta face a Kirby on Brinstar with a spacie and win.. that's it, most fail.

Cactuar(Fox) took on this challenge against Armada and lost, kinda funny.
Most people get *****, the creator of this challenge is Hack.
So with that said, Brinstar is a very good stage with Kirby.

---
edit after reading some posts:Since when did I say I didn't try? I played my heart out against IVP but going from slacking style to actually playing right takes some matches, at the end of the 2nd match at BF I never missed that SDI on Fox uair, if I got another match after that I would have won.
That match was so much fun to play, even if I messed up.

oh I might aswell add some comments from IVP regarding Kirby:
How can anyone think that Kirby vs Fox is a 9:1 or 10:0 Kirby can 0-death techchase, I thought people counted potential.. so if Kirby can techchase fox to a nice % and then bair him off the stage and then edgeguard how can it be a 9:1 matchup.. are they stupid?..
And Kirby isn't that slow either tbh.

 

[Tero.]

I wanna take that challenge!

 

[Pink Reaper]

Fox can shine out of that tech chase or even out of the Dthrow after around 50% though that might be different in PAL(is Fox lighter/heavier in PAL i cant remember)

Also you're still not taking into account that there's no reason fox should ever be grabbed by Kirby, or even close to kirby for any reason ever. Obviously if Fox is playing the match up wrong the match up numbers will be different, if the fox is sitting his *** on top of DL 64's top platform and laughing at your attempts to do stuff to him, he's gonna 10/0 you.

 

[ajp_anton]

I wanna take that challenge!

Pretty much all of Europe's top spacie players have taken it and failed.
Afaik Zhu is the only one who succeeded, but I think Armada SD'd at low %.

 

[Cactuar]

Haha, Zhu won because he played super gay.

Really... what kind of player would camp a kirby with Fox just to win? lmao

Armada is just too good with Kirby.

 

[Tero.]

Pretty much all of Europe's top spacie players have taken it and failed.
Afaik Zhu is the only one who succeeded, but I think Armada SD'd at low %.

I don't wanna face Armada, I wanna play Nizro.

Really... what kind of player would camp a kirby with Fox just to win? lmao

me.

 

[BunBun]

People camp me when I play Kirby, even in friendlies

 

[Triple R]

People camp me when I play Kirby, even in friendlies

This made me laugh because the fox I play all the time camps me even in friendlies too. He told me it's just instinct to camp kirby now lol.

 

['V']

I think it's just an instinct to camp. It happens to me too.

So I played some over the weekend. I'm thinking I like the Doc matchup. Anyone wanna discuss?

 

[Nizro]

Lolz sure, Tero next tournament we both show up to we'll do that ****
But there's nothing stopping you from taking that challenge against Armada too
It's been awhile since I last Kirby challenged anyone, the latest challenge was against IVP and he was like "imma play Marth"

But yeah, on DL64 a Fox can pretty much camp your ***.. that's why I prefer BF and YS.
Overall, beast Kirby's exist in Sweden.

Cactuar, you're too good.
But really doesn't that actually mean something, is Kirby that hard to beat so you have to camp him? :D

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

is Kirby that hard to beat so you have to camp him? :D

usually. or it swings it into my favor anyways.

This made me laugh because the fox I play all the time camps me even in friendlies too. He told me it's just instinct to camp kirby now lol.

i'll camp waaay harder if i play you in tournament though. hopefully i'll get you to switch to marth after game one if i camp hard enough.

Fox can shine out of ... the Dthrow after around 50%

like, before he hits the ground to tech? I'll have to start trying that.

 

[Triple R]

haha, I'll never switch to Marth in tourney. Nothing will stop me from reppin that Kirby . Just do what you gotta do to win.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Also of note, Marth, Mario and Doc can all Up B out of Dthrow starting at 0%

 

['V']

Can Luigi do it too?

Also I've noticed that Ness can N-air Kirby out of his D-throw at around 25% or around that area. I imagine Luigi and some other characters can do the same.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Luigi can Nair Kirby out of D-throw at like 0. I'd imagine that it's easier (and more intuitive for a Luigi) to do that than to try and Up+B sweetspot out of the D-throw. But to answer your question... yeah, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to.