Data The Official Kirby Match-up Thread

[BunBun]

Not effectively.

Also, Kirby's grab range is straight up good. Not just good for his size.

 

[Massive]

Kirby is one of the few characters who's grab range actually increases during the dash animation, no joke. He also has a pretty big grab-box behind his back while dash grabbing.

TECH-CHASE CITY.

 

[Pink Reaper]

You can totally Nair->grab. It works if you set it up right. It just helps to like, DD camp in front of your opponent a bit, feint like you're gonna fair and unplug their controller before you jump in.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz! I know Kirby has a really good jab reset in case they don't tech his dthrow. It seems like the three worst characters have fairly good dash grab hitboxes. I think Pichu's also grabs behind him, too.

 

[Bing]

Kirby's dash grab is ****, I love it vs. people who sit in shield, I also love D-throw, Utilt, D-throw, jab reset, D-Throw, juggle with U-Tilt then smash them hard with something XD Or jump and use the Hammer and continue the combo, depending on DI and %

 

[bubbaking]

Those were all different dthrow combos, right? Not one super-long (for Kirby anyway) combo?

 

[Bing]

Nope, one super long combo, works sometimes... XD regardless even if you dont fit the whole thing in, it does do a decent amount of damage, plus it also keeps in mind ideas for other combos. i.e when there in there air, the hammer is great for comboing.

 

[bubbaking]

I've heard that a couple of times now. How do I use the aerial hammer? Do I ground it so that it ends early?

 

[Triple R]

Haha, the hammer is horrible. Sure it can tack on some nice damage, but it's kinda risky. Must characters are out of hitstun and retaliating already and you're still stuck in ending lag.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, I heard from some Kirby veterans that Kirby can combo w/ the aerial hammer into utilt.

 

[Triple R]

Well, yeah, that's what you should do after hammer. It's pretty much your best option, but it is not a true combo at all. It's just a string that can be handy on fat characters.

 

[Massive]

Aerial hammer is good against people who can't counter with a midar move before you're you're into utilt frames. Theoretically anybody can retaliate but it seems to be hardest for gannondorf in particular to do anything about it.

God tier hammer work involves ledgecancelling aerial hammer into another aerial hammer. It also scares the **** out of everyone when it happens because it's so finicky to pull off.

 

['V']

Or you can ledge cancel hammer into Bair. It's a lot faster and much better.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm guessing this ledge cancelling stuff would work best when edgeguarding and the opponent is focusing more on recovering than on retaliating.

 

[Massive]

I'm guessing this ledge cancelling stuff would work best when edgeguarding and the opponent is focusing more on recovering than on retaliating.

Not the hammer, the hammer screws you bad if you're not over the stage.

Ledgecancelling hammer works best in the middle of a stage like yoshis where you can hit someone below the platform with the hammer and follow up with an attack while they're in floating frames. It's just not too easy to do with any level of reliability.

Ledgecancelling anything else is great anywhere you do it. Less lag frames is universally better.

 

['V']

^^^All of this.

Also, ledgecancelling aerial hammer into a reverse Dair is also good if you anticipate a shield. Then you can just pressure it with Utilts.

 

[bubbaking]

What do you mean by "reverse dair"?

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Hi guise. I'm new to melee and I need help with my match ups. My friends play roy and link and they are very hard to beat. I mainly use up-b and down-b to combo them, but they have too much range. Please teach how to play Kirby. I really love him even though he's low tier.

 

[Massive]

Hi guise. I'm new to melee and I need help with my match ups. My friends play roy and link and they are very hard to beat. I mainly use up-b and down-b to combo them, but they have too much range. Please teach how to play Kirby. I really love him even though he's low tier.

No. Kirby sucks.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

Pink Reaper said he'd help me go pro though ))):
My heart is brokenz.

edit

Dude, Chris just teach me Kirby. D:<

 

[Malkasaur]

**** the Kirby vs Marth MU. Just, never play it. Ever.

 

[Dodger]

You should never play Foxes either. Or Falcos. Or Peaches. Or Shieks.

 

[Gold Dart]

Or Game and watch... seriously might be worse than the Shiek match-up.

 

[Malkasaur]

You should never play Foxes either. Or Falcos. Or Peaches. Or Shieks.

Fox? Meh. Not too bad. Falco? Please, it's actually not that bad. Peach? **** Peach. Sheik? Ehhhhh she's not terrible. Avoid Marth at all costs though. Seriously, I'm about to make a post dedicated to how bad it is.

 

[Triple R]

Fox? Meh. Not too bad. Falco? Please, it's actually not that bad. Peach? **** Peach. Sheik? Ehhhhh she's not terrible. Avoid Marth at all costs though. Seriously, I'm about to make a post dedicated to how bad it is.

I'm kinda curious why you think Fox and Falco are not too bad. Also why Marth is the end of the world. I have somewhat opposite feelings, so I'm curious what makes you feel this way.

 

[Malkasaur]

I'm kinda curious why you think Fox and Falco are not too bad. Also why Marth is the end of the world. I have somewhat opposite feelings, so I'm curious what makes you feel this way.

Well, Fox/Falco can be dealt with pretty easily. For Fox, you just avoid getting Shined. For Falco, it's pretty straight forward. But Marth, Marth outspaces Kirby with ease. Want to approach Marth? BLAM! You got tipped. Marth's edgeguard game is also amazing, so once you get knocked off stage, it's almost impossible to recover. All Marth has to do is camp and F Smash.

 

[Triple R]

I can without a doubt in my mind say that Fox is Kirby's hardest matchup. After that Falco follows closely behind. I don't think this is disputable at all.

After that it gets kinda wishy washy and probably depends on some personal preference.

You basically have the next level of Peach/Jiggs and Sheik/Marth. Probably depends if you can handle floaty battles or grab monsters better.

After that Falcon and ICs are definitely the easiest of the top tiers.

Difficulty almost goes follows in line with the 2013 community tier list.

 

[Gold Dart]

Marth's edgeguard game is also amazing, so once you get knocked off stage, it's almost impossible to recover. All Marth has to do is camp and F Smash.

hmmm I personally don't find it all that difficult to recover vs marth. I just try to stay patient while recovering ( using all of my jumps if I have to). You should usually aim to sweet spot the ledge when using up B vs marth. You should also always be prepared to ledge tech when recovering with up B.
Don't forget to mix up your recovery. Air dodging onto stage is a decent option, but it should not be overused.

 

[Malkasaur]

I can without a doubt in my mind say that Fox is Kirby's hardest matchup. After that Falco follows closely behind. I don't think this is disputable at all.

After that it gets kinda wishy washy and probably depends on some personal preference.

You basically have the next level of Peach/Jiggs and Sheik/Marth. Probably depends if you can handle floaty battles or grab monsters better.

After that Falcon and ICs are definitely the easiest of the top tiers.

Difficulty almost goes follows in line with the 2013 community tier list.

What? I hardly struggle against Fox/Falco with Kirby.
Peach, I can hardly beat Peach with normal counter characters. My experience using Kirby against her is mixed.
Jiggs, ehhhhhhhh. It can go either way. Not completely terrible.
Sheik is just bwoken. Bad matchup.
Marth, already expressed my feelings towards.
And I agree with Falcon and ICs. Kirby mutilates Falcon's recovery. I almost feel bad for him. Then I remember how much I hate Falcons and I get over with it. I'm suprised how well Kirby does against ICs though.

 

[Dodger]

Gold Dart, I feel that Kirby cannot actually sweet spot the ledge. Not like Marth can anyway. Kirby must come above the ledge with the up B if he needs to grab it, and against a Marth? That means *DEAD*.

 

[Malkasaur]

So, could someone please tell me how in the actual **** Marth isnt Kirby's worst MU? I've played against Foxes and Falcos using Kirby and it's not that bad of a MU. But Marth? I've tried and tried and I cannot find a way to beat Marth with Kirby. Come in from above with a DAir, you're gonna get an UAir to the face. Want to try stone from above instead? Guess what? You're gonna get F-Smashed and die. Finally grabed Marth? Don't bother Down Throwing, Marth just floats far away. If you're winning against Marth with Kirby, you're playing a stupid Marth.

 

[Massive]

I actually beat AustinRC's marth with kirby several times when he used to live in KC a few years back, lol.

Let me address a few of your points and explain what you might be able to improve on next time:

I've played against Foxes and Falcos using Kirby and it's not that bad of a MU.

Did you ever consider the Marth/Marths in your area may be better than the spacie players? Fox is widely considered to be Kirby's worst matchup, like 10-0. Falco vs. Kirby is a bit better, but not a whole lot. It is common when playing as Kirby to run into someone who has never played that match before, and therefore doesn't know your tricks/gimmicks/abilities. You have the element of surprise in those situations, but that is a temporary deficit and cannot be used to judge a matchup.

Come in from above with a DAir, you're gonna get an UAir to the face.

Dair is not a safe approach. It worked great in 64 when shieldstun was high, but it does not work at all in melee.

Against marth, I find Kirby's best approach is actually wavedash in > dtilt. It will out-range early fairs and knock Marth back, and generally gets on their nerves. You can also use aerial hammer > utilt pretty reliably (run > jump aerial hammer >land behind > utilt) if they are not aware of its utility or shield when you jump for whatever reason.

Additionally, and most importantly, there is a standard strategy vs. marth most characters can take advantage of that makes the matchup a lot easier. It's a universal strategy, and it's part of the reason why marth has fallen in the tier list (and in favor) a bit since his glory days.
You can wavedash out of shield. If marth fsmashes your shield and you're on the ground, you can wavedash OoS and punish. Grab, tilt, aerial, basically whatever you like before he's out of fsmash lag. This is a HUGE deal. Wavedash OoS after marth's fsmash instantly gives you the advantage.

Want to try stone from above instead? Guess what? You're gonna get F-Smashed and die.

Stop using down-b. It's not good. It's never been good. If it was ever good for you, you were bad and your opponent was worse.
There are a few times you can use it to get ledge position while recovering high, but honestly, it's not worth doing it regularly. There is huge recovery time after the animation, and you can be grabbed or just attacked out of it easily.

Finally grabed Marth? Don't bother Down Throwing, Marth just floats far away.

Let him float, at lower %s you can utilt after dthrow, at higher %s you can chase with bair, and at very high %s just use uthrow.

Also keep in mind that kirby is in general an underpowered character. He will ALWAYS have trouble with other characters. Even his best matchup is going to be slightly out of his favor. Winning with kirby usually means you are not only a better player than your opponent, it means you have far superior game knowledge as well, because you have to if you want to come out on the top when the odds are that bad.

 

[Gold Dart]

Gold Dart, I feel that Kirby cannot actually sweet spot the ledge. Not like Marth can anyway. Kirby must come above the ledge with the up B if he needs to grab it, and against a Marth? That means *DEAD*.

I guess you're right about that. My point was up B so that if you get hit by Dtilt or Fsmash, you can ledge tech.

@ Massive , yes down B is not a move that can be overused, but it is a surprisingly good recovery mix-up when recovering high. Sometimes I'll use it just to touch the ground so that I get my floats back. If I'm not mistaken, down B has a few invincibility frames when you cancel it, which can be used to Kirby's advantage. It's still a horrible move, but sometimes the worst option is the best option
Also at most percents Marth can jump out of Kirby's down throw hitstun before Kirby has a chance to follow up. I tend to use up throw, or at higher percents back throw vs marth.

 

[Massive]

I'd say given the choice between a possible follow-up from d-throw and no possible followup from u-throw, it's worth it to go for d-throw.
Since uthrow basically functions as a reset and forces you to approach or defend again, it's wasting a possible punish. Even if dthrow only leads to a follow up very rarely, it's still a follow up. You can get superior stage position or even a stock out of it (dthrow > uair does happen when the DI stars align).

I also advocate not using Up-B at all unless it's an incredibly dire situation, no move marth does (that you can actually recover from) will send you low. That fact alone is a gift in this matchup, why waste it on an up-b when you could be recovering high or with an airdodge more safely?

 

[Gold Dart]

As long as the Marth you're playing against doesn't know how to get out of Kirby's d throw it's a fine option. Marth can actually reverse dolphin slash after Kirby's d throw, which can obviously ruin Kirby's entire day. Imo up throw is a safer option that puts Marth in a more or less bad position.

I agree that there are few reasons to ever use up-b vs Marth. I do occasionally use it as a mix-up when Marth is expecting me to air dodge on stage though.

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

Or Game and watch... seriously might be worse than the Shiek match-up.

Actually, some of Game & Watches moves can be punished pretty hard by Kirby. If he misses a ledge-cancel, Dash Attack, or F-tilt, punish with either F-Smash, U-Smash, or Hammer.

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

Kirby is one of the few characters who's grab range actually increases during the dash animation, no joke. He also has a pretty big grab-box behind his back while dash grabbing.

TECH-CHASE CITY.

There's actually a trick with Kirby's dash-attack which if you use it off a platform where Kirby ignites only in the air, then hit Z/R/L right before touching the ground, the attack cancels immediately and Kirby does a dash-grab. Given the dash-grab has a huge reverse hitbox, this trick can make it so heavy characters like Bowser, Fox, Falco, and DK to get hit by the dash-attack and immediately get grabbed.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I think Kirby is a pretty good character against Marth. Marth has a wide attack range, but he's also predictable and with good timing you can dodge his attacks and take advantage of his vulnerability times after each move. Kirby has many weak attack that on the other hand, can make very much damage if done continuously and have a good hitstun time. I use the land down+a (not smash) kick very often, it's fast, gives around 10% each hit and has long range, it's very useful, especilly against Marth and other fast characters.

 

[Kawaii-Kun]

I think Kirby is a pretty good character against Marth. Marth has a wide attack range, but with good timing you can dodge his attacks and take advantage of his vulnerability times after each move. Kirby has many weak attack that on the other hand, can make very much damage if done continuously and have a good hitstun time. I use the down+a kick very often, it's fast and gives around 10% each hit, it's very useful, especilly against Marth and other fast characters.

Another great way to fight Marth is getting a grab on him and up-throwing, then combo with Uair, Nair, or Fair and follow up there.

 

[Gold Dart]

Actually, some of Game & Watches moves can be punished pretty hard by Kirby. If he misses a ledge-cancel, Dash Attack, or F-tilt, punish with either F-Smash, U-Smash, or Hammer.

Most good Game and Watch players can easily out space kirby making it very difficult for kirby to punish anything.
Fair and wavedash up-tilt / F-tilt are some of Kirby's few punish options in the Match-up. Never use kirby's dash attack in this mu, as almost all of G&W's moves have priority.
G&W has superior movement, attack range, and combos in this MU. I have a lot of experience in this MU, trust me, it's bad.

@ Iko MattOrr As Malkasaur has previously stated,I don't think the Marth MU is good for kirby. Marth can out maneuver, and out space kirby with ease. As you mentioned, kirby's land down+a ( otherwise known as D-tilt ) is one of kirby's best moves vs Marth. Kirby doesn't have a whole lot of reliable options other than D-tilt unfortunately...
Not so fun fact about Kirby: Kirby's attacks are very weak and have low hit-stun. His hit-stun is so low that he has few true combos vs floaty characters ( such as Marth ). It's always a good idea to space your attacks so that if your opponent breaks out of a fraudulent kirby combo, you receive minimum punishment.

Also, up throw into up-air, Fair or Nair is not a true combo.