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The Official Ice Climbers' Video Thread

B0NK

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
1,282
Noted, I'll work on kicking that 08 habit >.< also any other suggestions, seeing as those CGs didn't effect the outcome of those matches??? =P

and LOL @ my set with Luckay, I guess you can say I got "Luckay" >.< Never played a good pit in tourney before, I gotta basically rework my entire playstyle vs pit >.> (or figure out of to keep them on the ledge forever and survive for 8 mins consistently... =/) But I know what I did wrong in that match...

basically... i'm free -___-
 

Rubberbandman

Smash Champion
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Bonk, I really don't see what you're trying to do in any of your matches. Your movement is really awkward, you keep fox trotting on the other side of the stage instead of either approaching or camping, or even just desynching. It doesn't look like you have any game plan in mind other than hope they approach and shield grab or dash in and shield grab.

Also Pit MU is simple, approach them slowly while PS'ing arrows. The rest of his moves can't really help him. Pit's Dair loses to Nair/Uair/Bair, Fair loses to the same things, his Nair isn't safe. Just push Pit to the ledge and Blizzard wall carefully.
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
1,282
It's simple what I'm trying to do, grab. That is my goal in every match, all my movements are to either space or bait a certain move to punish them. I'm neither approaching or camping, just waiting. I'll only desync if I'm sure it's a safe opportunity, since both IB and Blizzard (the main tools used in desyncs) are both quite punishable on start-up and end lag.

If I'm synced and just running away, it is either because I have the lead, and they're going to have to approach eventually, so I wait. Or it's because I'm thinking about what just happened, usually because my last approach got me punished. I create space to think instead of continuously approaching when I'm either behind or I just had the wrong read on the opponent. I pretty much only play with reads and punishing.

If I'm separated from Nana and you see me moving away, it's because you have more control over a separated Nana when further away (her SDI is better, and it's easier to tell her to jump, sometimes b-reverse an ice block). I only move in closer to a separated Nana when the opponent can be punished for attacking her (many don't allow you to), when the opponent is no longer between myself and Nana so I can get synced, and when I see an opportunity to tell her to air dodge, tech, get-up attack (all accompished by hold shield near her) or simply attack with n-air or a smash if she is grounded.

And my approach option isn't just sliding shield grab lol (although even if you don't think it will work, it's worth doing since it's hard for most characters to grab you, and is one of the most threatening tools ic's have, leading to some type of reaction or giving your opponent less time to think when you believe they are starting to figure out how to get past a wall etc.).

I also use sliding spot dodge extensively, since it avoids shield push from attacks, crosses up, and avoids grabs. It's a high-risk high-reward tool to use since it can definitely get you punished, but if you predicted correctly, you get a grab and a stock.

Otherwise, why approach, why desynch? Just camp in their face, spacing yourself and the occasional aerial. Approach just close enough so that you are at your characters optimal range, but not commiting to anything. Something you see from many characters like MK, Marth, Luigi, Kirby, and much of the cast. Get close enough to close the gap and punish any bad decisions as you wait for them. It's a style I see many top players use and have adapted myself. IC's frame data just isn't good enough to guess wrong and commit without getting punished (unlike MK, Snake, Diddy, and other top/high tier characters)

So I hope that helps you to see what I'm thinking and how I approach the game. Thanks for the Pit match-up advice though... since I have no clue what to do (or ever had to have a clue >.<). Will definitely keep that in mind =)
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
Joined
Jun 3, 2010
Messages
9,302
Super super super complicated matchup plan :(

Flow Chart: Grab Setup to see if they are bad at the matchup > If they jump, Uair/Nair Pressure > when they land, Grab setup if they are good at the matchup > Repeat

works on everyone but Falco, Rob, Peach, and MK imo lol
 

ch33s3

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
1,756
That's a really poor attitude and plan for approaching matches, Bonk.

Real game plan:
wait til they pause
play safe and use both climbers efficiently to limit options (which sometimes includes camping), until you get a grab or have racked enough damage to score a kill.
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
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Feb 28, 2008
Messages
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@Lux:

^^^ define "grab setup"

If your talking about desync grab set-ups... they are all punishable and gimmicky, good opponents will only let it happen once, which is enough for then a there, but not conisistent in every match you play.

As far as I know, there is no "perfect" set-up that will net you a win-win situation... nor gain you the lead when your behind. If there was, our character may as well be broken.

Also I think you need some more match-up experience if you believe it "works on everyone but Falco, Rob, Peach, and MK imo lol" ...be sure to add Toon Link, Pit, Snake, Diddy, ZSS, Yoshi, Lucas, Samus, and probably others.

Doesn't look like a good plan to me >.>

Also I don't play match-ups, match-up knowledge will only get you so far, I make a "plan" that works against players... not match-ups. I don't like flow-chart style of playing.


@Cheese and Lux:

And honestly, all of that stuff from the previous post just goes through my head instantaneously when I'm playing... and really seems like basics to me, not a "complicated match-up plan." I just try to pick up on habits, and punish them accordingly. That is just me looking back at matches and trying to figure out what exactly I was trying to do and/or doing.

Also waiting 'til they pause is pro -_^b I basically try to do what you say cheese, I just "over-complicate" it when I look back on the match, not going into the match.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I used them on Ensis when we played. They worked on TL.

I used them on Kira Flax when we played. They worked on Pit.

I told Lain to use them on Polt. They worked until he stopped using them, which is why he lost.

I used them on Mekos when we played. They worked on Lucas (except back then I couldn't CG Lucas so I lost a lot).

IDK I used them on every Snake/Diddy I've played. And if you use them right, they make the Snake and Diddy matchup +1 our favor if you're also good with item setups.

The only ZS/S I've played in tourney are pocket one's that are mediocre at best. But they work there too for me =\


I even sat down with Nicole and got that matchup plan to work there after understanding it better
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
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Feb 28, 2008
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"They work on this one player, they work on every player that uses that characters."

That's playing the player, not the match-up. I see match-up stuff as universal. Basically, everything I say is IMO, and will continue to look at matches that way while listening to input.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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My point was, our entire character is a gimmick that gets beaten by the X&Y button on standard controls if you look at it that way.

At some point the gimmick stops being a gimmick and it becomes the gameplan if you exert your will on your opponent.
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
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My point is I don't like to rely on "gimmicks" nor do I believe our entire character is just a "gimmick."

I believe here are our characters tools, lets use them safely and effectively in a way that is consistent from one opponent to the next.

We obviously have different views on how this game (and imo, other fighters) work. No point in arguing them, I've express my opinion, I'm really only interested in getting feedback on things people saw in my videos that I may have (read: probably) missed.

EDIT: also I know it's not simply beaten by X&Y since we have one of the three best up-airs in the game (next to MK and Oli's). It's beaten by punishing the lag on the set-up, or using a higher priority move that out-spaces grab (very easily). And of course, just avoiding the set-up completely. These set-ups don't gain you the lead and pressure to "exert your will on your opponent."
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Well to be fair, I play super janky climbers that are much different than anyone elses.

Anyone that's played with me/watched me play a matchup that isn't the olimar matchup will probably agree to that.

So we're probably just debating non-compartive perspectives.
 

Rubberbandman

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@Cheese and Lux:

And honestly, all of that stuff from the previous post just goes through my head instantaneously when I'm playing... and really seems like basics to me, not a "complicated match-up plan." I just try to pick up on habits, and punish them accordingly. That is just me looking back at matches and trying to figure out what exactly I was trying to do and/or doing.
Bro the thing is, you aren't playing the matchup, nor are you camping effectively, nor are you showing signs of actually picking on opponent's habits or forcing them out. You just seem to be standing there waiting for a bus to come or something.

My goal is really to force habits out of the opponent so I can punish those.
My point is I don't like to rely on "gimmicks" nor do I believe our entire character is just a "gimmick."
Face it, we are a gimmick character; where if the opponent gets grabbed, they die, and if we lose nana, we die. Thats a really high risk, high reward option. Thats why even experienced Icies can lose when they are on their first stock still and got the opponent to their last stock.
 

B0NK

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^^^ Yep, I wait, until I can't anymore. I guess that's just my play style. ^_^

Also, I used to think that the character and the CG was just a "gimmick" and only even used them because I used to use DK, got ***** by D3's CG in 08, and instead of trying to figure it out, I used a character that could CG back... since I used to think CG's were broken.

I've grown pass that, and realized IC's themselves are a solid character. You can't call the one tool that makes them viable just a "gimmick" (viability against other top tiers... since IC's are solid against lower tiers without the CG).

And if you think we just automatically "die" when we lose Nana, then that's what is going to happen... you will just die >.> It's like your already giving up, I'd rather look at Sopo as just a lower tier character and still try to stubbornly stay alive as long as possible.
 

Roller

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Just follow the grime...
Gimmick- an ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal.
~Dictionary.com

We are actually a gimmick character. The same way that pikachu's "combos" into thunder are gimmicks and should never actually hit. Except our character is built around them. As you said.
"It's simple what I'm trying to do, grab. That is my goal in every match, all my movements are to either space or bait a certain move..." "I'm neither approaching or camping, just waiting."

It is an effective gimmick, and a strong/viable one at that. But it is still a gimmick. It meets the dictionary definition.
 

B0NK

Smash Lord
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^^^ Fine, then one of the most powerful gimmicks in any competitive game.

I've always seen gimmicks as a one time thing in fighting games, that an experience player can work around. Something that may work for a while, but once the opponent understands the gimmick as well as the user, it becomes almost useless since the opponent won't be caught by it again.

But the dictionary disagrees with me (at least that one). So who am I to argue the definition without the motivation to look for a source to back me up lol >.<
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
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Why does this thread not once, but twice have the word new, but hasn't been updated for almost a year?
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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If the number of times we've played weren't a reflection of how you're capable of playing, you've done me a disservice :\

But I'm confident that if we did have to play in bracket, my gameplan would get me grabs. I'm more confident in that then actually 0-deathing a CG at this point in playing. Thus why I've been saying "Not Tourney Ready" for the past couple weeks and won't be going to StL with yall.

Serious or not, my statement still stands and the gameplan worked when we played. If you want to say you were sand bagging, I'd believe it since I suspected it already. But doesn't change the fact that they worked lol
 

hedgehog9597

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
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lol in lain vs thesoviet. Lain's last chaingrab, he could have killed g&w at 130%, possible earlier. But no, he brought him up to 300%, then missed a grab and g&w got killed by his downthrow. lolz
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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lol in lain vs thesoviet. Lain's last chaingrab, he could have killed g&w at 130%, possible earlier. But no, he brought him up to 300%, then missed a grab and g&w got killed by his downthrow. lolz
You can kill GW at around 70% from a cg with usmash lol.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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lol what? No offense Jordan, but you were famous back in the day for trying to finish CGs too early. I don't know if that stigma is still around, but I think that's a little early. (even in training mode, it didn't kill for a reasonable charge time assuming that they are a reasonably adept masher)

I'm scared of that bucket brake so I try to cg to past 100 and then drop the grab, but that's just my style

But if Hylian says 70%, I read that as, "CG to at least 85 and then go for the Fatality." :)
 

ch33s3

Smash Lord
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Uncharged usmash out of throw kills GW at just about 100 with good DI, so that's what I go to, fwiw.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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lol what? No offense Jordan, but you were famous back in the day for trying to finish CGs too early. I don't know if that stigma is still around, but I think that's a little early. (even in training mode, it didn't kill for a reasonable charge time assuming that they are a reasonably adept masher)

I'm scared of that bucket brake so I try to cg to past 100 and then drop the grab, but that's just my style

But if Hylian says 70%, I read that as, "CG to at least 85 and then go for the Fatality." :)
Eh I cg everyone to 3 digits and then either fthrow charge upsmash or dthrow -> bthrow charge upsmash. I only go past 100% on like Snake/DDD/DK(never played a bowser with ics lol) and then I go to 110% and they die >_>. I hate it when people cg long lol.

I may have been hyperbolizing with the gw thing though lol just a random % off the top of my head. Pretty sure a well spaced dthrow to bthrow charged upsmash would kill GW at 70% though.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Call me a man at work, but I go for the overkill.

Colin Hay says 120 > Buffer Fthrow > Half Charge Usmash
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Try killing KPrime at 70% LOL.

Not possible dude.
On people I know mash fast I cg much longer lol. I've been able to cg Kprime 0-death plenty of times >_>.
 

Roller

Smash Legend
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Just follow the grime...

Smoom77

Smash Master
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Oct 26, 2008
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Updated most everything. I looked for videos for most players and added what I could find (with Enda's help <3). I will need help finding 9B videos.

Btw, I deleted all videos before August 2010.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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I would prefer if my videos remained unlisted please
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Well let me rephrase that
If I post them in here and ask them to be critiqued, then you can list them here

I don't think I've really done that though with any videos

The Technical Tutorials are fair game, I just would rather not list my videos until I'm satisfied with my game play and I get a spot on the OP that I will deserve :)
 

Smoom77

Smash Master
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May I add videos that you post anywhere in the ICs boards? Anyone could benefit from watching any of your videos.

I'll remove them in the morning. On phone right now.
 
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