The Official Ice Climbers' Video Thread

[[FBC] ESAM]

Um...you linked to shadow vs ADHD...

 

[2-DJeff]

Um...you linked to shadow vs ADHD...

Damn it
Ill fix when I get home but for those who want to see it sooner its 2-djeff(ic) vs viper(falco)

 

[DeLux]

Is anyone (outside of K/Carl) going to get around to critiquing ESAM's ICs before we move on to critiquing ADHD vs. Shadow?

I'll look into specific tech critiques in a bit

Blanket statement is that ESAM could be ridiculous if he learns the broken aspects of the character instead of 08/09 ICing it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Which broken aspects?

 

[DeLux]

Your synced game is excellent. Your desync frame trap game is relatively non existent.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Ahh, well yeah I have to work on that. My main practice is a ZSS and it is really hard to do desync stuff on ZSS considering her forward B...ZSS is so hard for ICs @_@

 

[DeLux]

There's a video out there of Kakera wrecking a ZSS playing almost entirely desynced. If someone can find it, that would be great because I unbookmarked it.

Perhaps it's just matter of desync choices given your options. Like I notice that things like a pivot desync leaves ZSS super safe to use Side Special, but a setup makes Side Special much more grabbable.

But I haven't played a ZSS in tournament as good as the one you're probably referring to. Just the pocket one's people like to pull out when they see ICs.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So like a dash dance desync that leaves popo running at him? D_smash will normally hit popo...D-smash is so good @_@ it is pretty much unpunishable on shield because we slide

 

[DeLux]

You're probably desyncing too close or not zoning correctly if that's happening. Dash Dance Desync is a full dash length in spacing cost AND it's telegraphed because your opponent sees you dash dance. Try a Hylian desync or an LD1 out of DSC instead because the former is neutral zoned and the latter is defensively zoned.

The generic gameplan:

Use grab setup to force opponent into air/zone > Aerials for Damage > use grab setup on landing for grab

It gets more complicated than that on some matchups, but it's pretty much ICs in a nutshell. At which point you'd probably be able to SSDI > DSG a dsmash if you know it's coming. I know I've done it before, although you wouldn't get away with it long once he figures out it's no longer safe on shield and doesn't get baited into it.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hylian is the dash (insert) dash? Nana will do the special?

LD1 is...?

DSC is?

 

[Reyney]

see lux ..we need explanations
i was seaching the threads about them some time ago but u said something like.."i wont explain them until whobo, they should stay underground until then" something like this xDD

 

[DeLux]

Hylian desync is hard. It's the only frame perfect desync we have. But it's a reverse initial dash followed by a special inputs frames during the buffer input, followed by a frame perfect dash input on the first aciton frame of dash. Nana comes out specialling while Popo is free to grab.

Lux Desync 1 is my desync. It's a one frame slower than the Hylian desync, but can be done out of virtually anything (exceptions being roll, spot dodge, crouch, blizzard, IB aka the LD2 exceptions). It's a manipulation of the buffer window that buffers a walk on first action frames followed immediately by a reverse initial dash by Popo. The inputs are pretty specific but it's fairly lenient to perform because it's two 5 frame windows. I can explain how to perform it on skype if you message me because trying to explain it in a thread didn't work for people (explaining it in person doesn't work sometimes either though )

DSC is Dash shield cancel. ICs have one of the longest shield slides in the game. So if you combine that with a grab setup on the ground, it pretty much covers a lot of options. But using the shield slide out of dash helps negate the shield push on most attacks.

 

[2-DJeff]

here we go its a tourney match but the whole time im trying to tell him how to fight me but he was still kinda trying to fight me head up. But like a said i think fd isnt bad for falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d9nHhLqXA0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vQa4PfwyvI&feature=related
vs d-torr
pools match game1 game2 wasnt saved (i think) but i won on ps1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdqtMJOKPUA&feature=related
Met agian in tourney i win but i get ***** game 2 then 2stocked him game 3 i believe just watch the matches lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlcaWTIhuyQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHENjXbjIQo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5snqLHpuq58&feature=related
the number order is in reverse i believe all i know is game 2 was ps1

 

[DeLux]

I'm bad at the Falco matchup

I wish I could help

 

[Hylian]

Here you go esam:

[yt]XhgPaC7W0GU[/yt]

The reason you need to work on your desynching game simply is because it gives you a lot more options in almost every situation defensive or offensive. You don't always need to use desynching and relying on it is bad but having the option to do pretty much anything at any point is something no other character has. IC's have an INSANE mix-up game and can zone, pressure, and use items pretty much better than any other character because of desynching. Doing two things at once to limit options >>> doing one thing to limit options.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Right, which is why ICs are amazing (They also mess up simple safe things on shield because of 2 shields). I'll work on them technically, and then I'll try to work on them applicably.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lux, you make me sad. your like me kinda. so rediculously over knowledgable, but then you go out and lose to people like trent...

 

[DeLux]

TBH, I choked. You can ask him. I kept running into his Bair whenever he ran off a platform like an idiot even though I knew it was coming. I dropped like 5-6 CGs a set, although he mashed out of maybe 2 throughout the entire match. I actually got the grab on him last stock and dropped it 4 times. And then he timed me out because I didn't know you can cancel one of the moves by jumping straight up lol. I tried to go above him to eat up like 5 seconds on the clock. Should have gone to blizzard wall.



As I said after we played, Sonic is like the most stressful match of all time.


Next tournament though, no more choking, I promise :D

 

[Roller]

Nooooo not to sonic! I thought everyone learned after pound. =(

 

[da K.I.D.]

you guys really do need to make that 'pivot grab moar' picture.

 

[Roller]

On it.


















I am amazed I did not come up with that one on my own.

 

[DeLux]

I actually had a convo with someone before my match, "Should I use the just pivot grab everything strategy since it's sonic or should I go with my option limitation strategy." We decided on Pivot Grab Everything until he proved he could beat it.

Just Pivot Grab Everything lost it for me.
I made a comeback when I did option limitation.

It's really bad advice for me personally. No offense

 

[da K.I.D.]

none taken, I havent actually seen the match, since to my knowledge it wasnt recorded, so i dont have much of a basis for saying anything.

 

[Hylian]

Pivot grab everything is horrible advice in any situation against any character. You should never make yourself predictable, anything can be baited and punished. You literally cannot humanly react to some of sonics approaches at mid range you will just be guessing most of the time if you just try to pivot grab.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah...blizzard kinda beats everythign Sonic can approach with, unless he spring above you, in which case you can punish his landing (most likely)

 

[FrozenHobo]

any recent vids of top ICs? i see that this was updated 8/22/10 but i don't see any indication of what vids were uploaded most recently :/

 

[2-DJeff]

Aye frozen it was cool meeting you. I got the wrong impression on the boards but your pretty cool. Eff you eric for giving seibrik ic practice lol

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I still beat him

You played him in tournament? How did that go?

 

[2-DJeff]

Almost 3stocked him but bad things happened

 

[FrozenHobo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N1KIO2ttow&feature=channel_video_title

 

[Roller]

Pivot grab everything is horrible advice in any situation against any character. You should never make yourself predictable, anything can be baited and punished. You literally cannot humanly react to some of sonics approaches at mid range you will just be guessing most of the time if you just try to pivot grab.

Don't pivot grab everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MkgMiXdFk

Pivot grab everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7C3GuKDUPQ

Sure, Hylian dropped a ton of grabs as well. But if you look at the frequency each of us get grabs on the same player on the same day per stock (or per minute).. I got 5-6 per stock/more per minute.

And there are only what? 2-3 sonics in the country better than Kid?

The only other real sonic I've faced is Excel, who I believe was PR'd at the time. In a MM I did the same exact thing I did vs Kid, 3 stocked him low percent game 1 and he conceded.

I think there are 2 important points here that need to be made. YES pivot grab can be baited. Yes, it can be punished. But
1) We only have to catch them once on a mistake (which all players make eventually) in spacing/timing/ or read their bait and grab their followup. And they lose an entire stock. If the match starts and they catch you on a pivotgrab attempt. Sonic should not be killing nana right off the bat like many other characters can. Obviously he can kill her, as is seen in Kid vs Hylian. But at the end of the day, playing the baiting and reading game is far more dangerous for them than it is for us.

2) Yeah, it can be baited and punished. But how many sonics have any idea how to do this properly? As you can see, it worked on Kid, it works on Excel, and it's worked on every lesser Sonic I've played. Until they learn how to deal with it, it is stupid to avoid utilizing the technique when it has clearly worked in every instance I've seen it used. Should we avoid every gimmick that can be beaten if the player knows about it? Even when the player DOESN'T know how to get around it? Playing to win means using your opponent's ineptitude against them. If you know roll behind-> grab works on a player, it is foolish not to make use of that. I have yet to see a sonic not fall for this style, so until I see them adapt, in my opinion it would be foolish of me to change.

And that same day on which Hylian and I played Kid, Lain did as well. He asked what Hylian did wrong or if I had any reads on him. I told him to pivotgrab everything and use IB's to force approach if he kept away. Lain drops grabs on uncommon characters just as much as Hylian did in that set, and he did against Kid. But because he went about the majority of the match doing what I just said (yes, with some blizzarding thrown in) the result was very different despite the dropped grabs.

tl;dr: I agree with Lux's mentality. Do it until they prove it doesn't work on them. Which no sonic has shown me as of yet.

EDIT:I think a lot of ICs would perform better if they would accept that many times, simple can be better. ex: 9B & ESAM. Neither rely on fancy desynchs or complicated setups. They do what they see works, and do it well.

 

[2-DJeff]

I play very similar to kakera. I'm pretty sure a number of the smash community could vouch for me on this. My desychs are insane.

 

[ch33s3]

I play very similar to kakera. I'm pretty sure a number of the smash community could vouch for me on this. My desychs are insane.

-_-

10kakeradoesn'tplayICs's

 

[2-DJeff]

Talking about when he did
I just don't have his patiences

 

[Roller]

Kakera's ICs and 9Bs are at the far ends of the spectrum, and both do/did a good job of showing how effective their styles can be when used correctly. I go more for 9B's style (not to compare myself to him) but most American ICs tend to subscribe to a more kakeraish methodology.

 

[DeLux]

I used to think Kakera was the far spectrum.

Now he seems pretty middle ground to me :\


(in terms of using technical capabilities in the form of option limitation)

 

[2-DJeff]

What ever style fits you best lux

 

[DeLux]

I wasn't commenting about what styles "fit me"

I was more commenting on capabilities in terms of direction and depth of the character.

 

[Roller]

You right Lux, I guess it's mostly because I haven't seen the new stuff you've discovered used at the level those mentioned players perform at. Nobody has really become a posterboy for it yet. And now you have picked up Lucas so it might be a while. =(

 

[ch33s3]

You right Lux, I guess it's mostly because I haven't seen the new stuff you've discovered used at the level those mentioned players perform at. Nobody has really become a posterboy for it yet. And now you have picked up Lucas so it might be a while. =(

Lux's argument won me over actually.

Now if I could ever find someone to practice with...