PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
It seriously is the 150...whew, I thought Norfair was...
I must have got the wrong info somewhere
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The Official Geno Thread
- Thread starter McFox
- Start date
I must have got the wrong info somewhere
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Let me give you an overview of the characters that Square Enix has to offer:
1. Cloud-make a cameo as a summon in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories on the GBA and that's the only time he's appeared on a Nintendo platform. Brawl also already four sword users and will probably have another 2-3 more. You also have to consider how SE could easily charge Nintendo an arm and leg to use him since he's so popular. In the end, why would Nintendo want to fork over a ton of cash for another sword user when there are probably several first/second party characters like Ganondorf, Marth, and Takamaru already waiting in line?
2. Sora- a copyright nightmare since he's owned by Disney (Buena Vista Games) and Square Enix. In order to use him in Brawl, Nintendo would have to pay both companies and go through a ton of red tape compared to other third party characters. It doesn't exactly help that Sora has only stared in one Nintendo platform game either so, needless to say, he definately wouldn't be worth the legal stress.
3. Black Mage and Moogle- Generic and not the stars of their respective games so therefore would not be all that good as representatives of Final Fantasy. Compare them to the likes of Megaman and Sonic and it becomes immediately apparent why they probably wouldn't be worth adding. ("But Fatmanonice, isn't Geno's situation the same? No and I'll explain why once I get to him.)
4. Chocobo- Basically a spinoff of Final Fantasy and what sense would it make to rep a spinoff and not the main series? There's also some problems with Chocobo's atamonical design when it comes to a game like Brawl but the first reason is the most important.
5. *Insert Playable Final Fantasy character here*-Some people have suggested people like Locke, Cecil, etc from Final Fantasy 1-6 since they were on Nintendo platforms but the problem here is how do you decide which one is the most important and therefore most suited to represented Final Fantasy in its entirety? Because, in general, the same characters don't appear in each new installment, this question because practically impossible to answer and left entirelly up to personal opinions. It's unquestionable that Sonic and Megaman should represent their respective franchises but it simply isn't the case with Final Fantasy.
6. *Insert Playable Final Fantasy Chronicles character here*- Same problem as Chocobo, why represent a spinoff and not the main series?
7. Crono- Sadly, yet another legal nightmare. Back in April of this year, Square Enix offically announced that Chrono Trigger would not be released on the Wii's VC or the PS3's Network anytime soon because most of the people who worked on it no longer work for them and the rights to the game are spread out all over the place (which is also why the 3D Chrono Trigger fan project was canned in 2004(? *I'm not sure when it was stopped but you can still see the trailer on You Tube)). With that said, Crono's chances of appearing in Brawl, let alone again, are insanely low.
8. Slime- A generic enemy for the most part and the star of a spinoff of Dragon Quest. Once again, why represent a spinoff and not the main series? Call me unimaginative but I also have an extremelly hard time imagining how Slime would work in Brawl considering how he doesn't have arms or legs.
9. *insert Secret/Children of Mana character here*-too obscure and ill suited to represent all of Square Enix despite being great character. There's practically no demand either and I don't think it'd be wise for Nintedo to "rent" and pay for a character that no one really wanted in the first place.
10. Geno- Geno is basically a Mario character so therefore is not suited to represent Square Enix as a whole so that automatically removes a ton of tension regarding that. In other words, adding Geno would be adding another Mario character and save them the trouble of deciding on someone to represent all of Square Enix. At the same time, he would still be a tip of the hat to one of the best third parties in the industry.
Nintendo and Square Enix have also made two joint project Mario games together in the past 2 years, Mario Hoops Three on Three and Ikari Street so it could be said the addition of Geno would tie into that. Back track about 9 years before that and we run into Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars (the game Geno first appeared in) which was also not only Nintendo and Square Enix (then Square Soft) first joint project, but also Nintendo's first joint third party project on a major platform (Wario Blast, which was between Nintendo and Hudson Soft, was actually the first but that was on the Gameboy). That was pretty significant during that time because Nintendo was known as a company that didn't let anyone touch their games. Needless to say, Nintendo opened up in later years after that game with games like Mario Party (Hudson Soft), Donkey Kong Jungle Beat (Namco), the Legend of Zelda: the Minish Cap (Capcom), and F-Zero GX (Sega). As you can probably now tell, that was a very important moment in Nintendo's history.
As I have mentioned and several people have reposted from my Geno: Star of Heaven thread, Geno's legal situation is not the same as other third party characters because Nintendo basically controls the situation around him since SE can't use him outside of context (meaning a game not featuring Mario characters) or without Nintendo's involvement. Because of this, Geno is practically worthless to SE and has been sitting in a filing cabinet since 2003 after he appeared in Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga. With that said, it should be a no brainer that Geno's "rental" fees would be minor at best compared to the likes of heavy hitters like Cloud and Sora. So in the end, Nintendo benefits because they get a unique and wanted character for peanuts and Square Enix gets recognized in what will probably be the biggest Nintendo game of the decade and get some money for a character that's been sitting in a shoebox under the bed and covered with dust.
Throw in how the third party barrier is basically broken for Nintendo/third party games (already explained in this post and previous ones too), how he's a very unique character and nothing like Smash has seen yet, has a decent amount of demand, has Sakurai's and developers interest, and could advertise SMRPG which is already the most wanted VC game in North America and Japan and you've got a character that knocks a homerun out of the park and really has no downsides.
LemonKing
Smash Journeyman
From what I have heard Monday is indeed the 150th Update.
You'd rather have him not be in at all rather than an AT?
WHY!?
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Because then you know that they got the permission to use him and decided NOT to make him a character
Enigma14
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2007
- Messages
- 2,435
BECAUSE IT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE! WE VOTED FOR HIM! WE SUPPORTED HIM! AND IF SAKURAI MAKES HIM UNPLAYABLE BUT IN THE GAME ITS A TEASE LIKE WHAT WAS SAID IN THE GREAY FOX UPDATE! ALSO THE SAME COULD BE SAID FOR RIDLEY! HE COULD BE A BOSS AND NOT PLAYABLE BUT NO BOTH HAVE TO BE PLAYABLE BECAUSE THERE WAS THE POLL, THE FANS INTEREST!
THEY CANT BE UNPLAYABLE! TO HAVE TO BE PCS THEY JUST HAVE TO...THEY JUST HAVE TO MAKE THEM PCS...
TBone06
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2006
- Messages
- 908
when was Pokey announced, also is there a current list of ATs?
If Sakurai plans on doing something special for the 150th update, then we can deffinetly expect a character tonight, unfortunately i cant stay up for it this time...
Though if it's gonna be a special occasion character, it's probably Ridley, or even Megaman. I dont think Geno will get a special occasion update only cause not alot of people know about him.
Though if it's gonna be a special occasion character, it's probably Ridley, or even Megaman. I dont think Geno will get a special occasion update only cause not alot of people know about him.
Yeah but maybe they (while we do) didn't feel Geno was important enough, so they wanted to make him an AT instead, to make the fans happy.
Personally, I would rather see a glimpse of him rather than nothing at all.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
NO he wasn't, that's just a baseless rumor
Houndstooth
Smash Ace
That's so sad... Crono was a great character. I did not know that most of the people were spread out everywhere. I wish that he could make it into Brawl. He'd be very different. I also did not know that Wii's VC and PS3's Network was not going to be having Chrono Trigger anytime soon. Oh well, guess that is just the way things go. Maybe Crono can rise from the ashes later... Much later.
LemonKing
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, but a WTF Style update is more Sakurai's style.
I could see Geno getting announced tonight.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Because as the situation currently stands, third parties are either represented by stages (as the case with Nacmo and the Star Fox Assualt and DK: Jungle Beat Stage), ATs (as the case with Treasure with the AT of the heroine from Sin and Punishment) or characters (Snake and Sonic representing Konami and Sega respectively). In other words, the third parties involved so far are actually involved in significant ways in the game. Also, as I've already explained, Geno's chances of becoming an AT are extremelly low because the Mario franchise already has two, we already have 19 ATs, not all the playable franchises have been revealed yet, there are still 7 playable franchises that don't have at least one AT yet, and there are still plenty of smaller franchises that Nintendo hasn't tapped into yet.
Grandeza
Smash Master
ok sry maybe my original post wuz close minded. i will revise my position on geno in Brawl. once again im sry 
hotgarbage
Smash Lord
personally I'd put my money on Ridley tonight
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
Well, you can go ahead and be a *******...and you can shove it when the game comes out and he is in
LemonKing
Smash Journeyman
QFT.
You have nothing backing up your statement of Geno not being in. It seems like that everyone just goes on a gut feeling that Geno won't be in, and doesn't bring up any vaild arguments.
Why do you think Geno, Ridley, and Megaman fans all talk peacefully now? We can't find any vaild arguments against each other. That's how well defended the three are.
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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- Aug 22, 2007
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- 2,435
Only thing for Megaman thats got going against him is that theres no outsource mention of him from Sakurai.
Miyamoto and Sakurai both commented on Sonic. And we all know about SAkurai and Kojima. Sakurai even mentioned a couple of characters a while back like Ridley...
Miyamoto and Sakurai both commented on Sonic. And we all know about SAkurai and Kojima. Sakurai even mentioned a couple of characters a while back like Ridley...
vesperview
Smash Hero
But Megaman was on the poll, Sonic wasn't.
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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Yeah but they reconized that, however for Megaman no one knows...
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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Darky Dee
Smash Journeyman
Black Mages may come as generic as they seem like Pokemon Trainer, but you have to incorporate the idea that they will be around so long as the Final Fantasy series is kicking. They may represent Final Fantasy I, III, V, IX, XI, and the spin-offs. And a Black Mage screams Final Fantasy. Black Mage would make up in game play what he lacks in persona.
So lending a Black Mage would still make a large profit in Square's yard, because Square is so big, if they stamp any Final Fantasy name on a videogame, it will most likely instantly be a best seller. Square has gotten so much more recognition than Sega these past few years.
Most if not all Final Fantasy games are triple-A quality and stand higher on the scale of importance of franchises compared to Sega's Sonic games.
DarkSpidey13
Smash Ace
what poll are you talking about? the Melee one from 6 years ago? on the Brawl poll, Sonic was by far the most requested 3rd party character.
Square-Enix dissapointed me in a big way when they made FFXI a MMO game. Now thats selling out.
Houndstooth
Smash Ace
Quick question that is off the current subject. I have just now been able to get into P2W forums. Anyway, what do I need to do to be a member? Just post?
LemonKing
Smash Journeyman
No way is that selling out. Just because you didn't want to have to play to pay doesn't mean that it was a sellout type game.
They put a lot of hard work into that and it shows. The game still entertains me and many other people for hours.
Darky Dee
Smash Journeyman
How is that selling out? I thought that was an experiment. They're still popping out expansion packs, so I'm guessing it's still doing good. If I had high speed internet access at my place, I would probably have forgotten I have a membership to a gym because I would be into FFXI.
Anyway, Final Fantasy XII was great on epic proportions. A monument should be erected in Square's honor. If anyone disagrees, they should be pimp-slapped.
Anyway, Final Fantasy XII was great on epic proportions. A monument should be erected in Square's honor. If anyone disagrees, they should be pimp-slapped.
PsychoIncarnate
The Eternal Will of the Swarm
I haven't bought a single new, not counting remakes, Final Fantasy since 10...and I didn't very much like 10
Grandeza
Smash Master
sry. u guys r right. i have no valid arguments against geno. it wuz a close minded post. i hope i didnt make a terrible first impression on these boards.
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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- 2,435
Megman games havent sold cause all the plots for the Megaman (insert number here) have had the same formula and nothing has really changed, thats why Mega no longer has any games for its classic and X series.
But if Sakurai puts EXE or Legends megaman *shudders*
But if Sakurai puts EXE or Legends megaman *shudders*
Devastlian
Smash Lord
And you believed them? Geno probably showed up during that one minigame in M&L because the director, who also directed SMRPG, liked him. He, combined with the fact that the founder of Alpha Dream is a former president of Squaresoft, very likely still has ties within Square-Enix and it was easy for them to get permission.
Because they probably haven't fallen into this ridiculous fad of prejudicing characters based on whatever they're holding in their hand. Also, is there really any proof that SE would charge so much more compared to what Konami and SEGA already are? I mean, does SE do this often?
There's no proof whatsoever that anyone other than Disney owns any of the original Kingdom Hearts properties. I agree that Cloud and Sora haven't been in enough Nintendo games, though.
You find out which is the most popular and/or recent like with Ike. For example, Cecil's game is the most popular of the Nintendo FF's in Japan (based on that Famitsu thing) and the remake is coming out about a month before SSBB which places it in a good advertising situation.
...and what about the main series? The legendary hero Loto (aka Erdrick) is considered a video game icon in Japan and, combined with the fact that Dragon Quest is so mind-numbingly popular in Japan, DQ's popularity in the US has to at least match that of SMRPG.
Well, how do you know he's not worthless to Nintendo, too? That the return of paying for a popular SE character isn't worth it?
How do you know how much control Nintendo has over Geno, anyway? The copyright at the end of M&L says that, "regardless" of Nintendo's owning of everything else, SE owns Geno.
GhostAnime
Smash Ace
what about Mario?
Super Mario Whirled
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
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- Messages
- 207
It's all right. But I would suggest a helpful tip to avoid getting called a n00b: Use capitalization, and spell out your words instead of using the dreaded "chatspeak".
Anyhoo, back on off-topic. I've never had an FF game past III, so I've no idea what these new games are like. I do agree, though, on Megaman's and Sonic's newer games. Hopefully them getting into Brawl could improve the quality of future games...
I personally don't care who gets into Brawl, as long as Geno does...
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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Fatman I could leave this to you, but i dont want you to cause you always get the long posts and thats a lot of time
This is a 3rd party argument from Fatmanonice's "Geno: Star of Heaven thread":
"The legal situation surrounding Geno (and Vaati) is not the same as Sonic and Megaman. Yes, Geno is third party and owned by Square Enix but Nintendo really has more say in the character. Why? Because Geno was in a Mario game (a first party franchise owned by Nintendo) that makes him a Mario character. There's no getting around that. Because of this, Square Enix cannot legally use him outside of this context because (as the copyright says at the end of all Mario games) Nintendo owns all the scenarios that occur in the Mario games. Geno was part of the story in Super Mario RPG thus pulling him into the scenario AKA the story and plot points of the game. My point was proved both during the offical Melee and Brawl polls when Geno was, despite his legal situation, categorized as a Mario character and seperated from the other third party characters."
"Now that is cleared up, let me explain things further. Because Geno is a Mario character, Square Enix cannont legally refuse Nintendo the rights to him if they wish to use them nor use him outside the context of a Mario game unless Nintendo is involved with the project. In the end, Nintendo basically controls the situation surrounding him and that makes Geno pretty much worthless to Square Enix. For further proof of this, ask yourself this: Why was Geno in a Mario game that Square Enix played no part in developing? Mario and Luigi: Super Star Saga was developed by Nintendo and Alpha Dream. It is even questionable whether or not Square Enix recieved some of the profits based on Geno's inclusion in the game."
"Now let's compare Geno with Sonic. Sonic makes millions of dollars for Sega every year and is their biggest icon. Geno is a character that was playable in one game that sold about 2 million copies worldwide more then a decade ago and has basically been sitting in a filing cabinet since 2003. See a difference? I certainly do."
"So there you have it. Geno's legal situation laid out in black and white. Yes, Nintendo will still have to get permission to use him and probably have to pay a minor fee (would you like to compare the "rental" cost of Sonic's or Megaman's copyrights to Geno's?) for him but, in the end, Geno is very, very different from other third party characters."
Also think as to why Geno only has appeared in Mario related games? Also hes to cool for sports and party games =p
Enigma14
Smash Champion
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Mario has a veiraty of games that sure have the same formula but theres always something different to it.
DarkSpidey13
Smash Ace
wasn't someone working on a webpage for the alliance? what happened to that?
I have to agree with you there. Mario games have never been executed the same way. =op
Mario Bros. featured your standard run of the mill linear gameplay. Mario Bros. 2 had different style altogether with picking up vegetables and other objects off the ground. Mario Bros. 3 featured semi-linear gameplay. Mario 64 was a 3D adventure, Mario Party Sunshine relegated the plumber to custodial service, and Galaxy looks like a whole new thing. A mix between NiGHTS and Mario Bros.? Either way, pretty different.
Poor Megaman has been doing the same thing over and over....but I loved his games all the same. =o)
Grandeza
Smash Master
Thanks, Super Mario Whirled.